View Full Version : When is it too light? Where do you draw the line?
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 00:26
I had to ask, not to stir things up... But when I go to a UL website and I see a 120 pound 40 year old guy in a mummy bag in summer and sleeping on top of well clown baloons to make animals inside a shelter, what is up with that?
Please I am a huge fan of doing it UL and I am not poking fun, but when we get down below lets say 12 lbs, why bother? its a comfort vs survival in the woods. Even Daniel Boone carried a gun & knife and something to start a fire. Probably the first well known UL hiker of the woods.
When is it too light for you?
Rockhound
07-05-2009, 00:30
I'm happy at 40 to 50 pounds. Anything under 30 would be too light for me. The whiskey alone weighs 4 pounds.
what heavier items are you thinking you need to carry in order to be better prepared and for what? 3lb tent vs 10oz tarp? if you know how to use it both will keep you dry. Neither are going to save you from animal that really wants to get in. 1 pound gas stove vs .3oz cat can alcohol stove. Both will boil water. 10oz water filter vs 1oz aqua mira, both will purify your water. 5 pound frame pack vs 1 pound frameless, both with carry your stuff. People's definitions of comfort are different. I rather have a lighter load while hiking then have a chair in camp, unless i NEED it, i'm not going to carry it.
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 00:42
Well to help the thread I am happy at 20 lbs without water or food and add a little from there. Others are going sub 10 and cutting comfort in a big way.
High Life
07-05-2009, 00:43
you draw the line where you want and ill draw mine ..
the question is when is it too light for you ?
High Life
07-05-2009, 00:44
Well to help the thread I am happy at 20 lbs without water or food and add a little from there. Others are going sub 10 and cutting comfort in a big way.
ok seriously you know whats comfortable for other now
wow .. srsly ?:banana
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 00:47
No High Life, when you drop weight on the pack your dumping some comforts, like a sleeping pad, that balloon photo caught me by surprise
medicjimr
07-05-2009, 00:49
Well I am still trying to go lightweight. Today I hiked 5 1/2 mile ( Time Constraints ) my pack was 45 lbs felt great this was compared to a month ago hiking with 60 lbs that was a 35 mile hike never less the deference felt was substantial. Now to get a lighter pack and bag will drop another 7 lbs or more I am still tweaking my must have and want to have..
High Life
07-05-2009, 00:51
really so if i go from say a prolite four to a neoair and drop a lb.
im dropping comfort ??? WHAT ? or if i go from a hubba to a contrail
im dropping comforts ....for real ????
High Life
07-05-2009, 00:53
im just an angry dude , i have no idea what im talking about ..
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 00:55
You are taking this way too personally, This is the internet and it was an open question.
So try again - would you try to hike the trail with three pounds? or 10? where do you feel comfortable? Or go back to the original post.
I'm comfy with my 10 pounds before food and water. It's all about what YOU need/want. I don't NEED much, so i don't take much.
River Runner
07-05-2009, 03:31
I was right at 20 lb with food & 2.5 liters of water for a 6 day section hike in May (with a light resupply on day 3). I was very comfortable. I could have went slightly lighter and still been comfortable, but not much.
I think you are talking about the balloon bed Bill Fornshell made. With some of the SUL hikers, it is a game to see how low you can go - to see how far the limit can be pushed. Which is okay for those that want to do that.
18-24 lbs seems to be a good range for me, depending on season and trip purpose.
fiddlehead
07-05-2009, 04:17
I hiked the 220 mile JMT with an ultra runner who's pack weighed 4 1/2 lbs WITH FOOD!
So, that will always be my ultimate goal although i doubt i'll ever be able to do it.
I think you must be able to pull a 75 miler on any given day to be able to feel comfortable with that kind of weight.
Wolf - 23000
07-05-2009, 09:18
As many people may know, I normal travel on the EXTREME side to ultra light backpack. I don’t promote hiking ultra light or even light weight – it all a matter of personal preference. I have been doing it for a long time now travel with less than 5 pounds base weight sense my first hike back in 1989. Now I’m down to between 1 – 3 pounds total gear weight. It is an acquire taste. I’m 6’2 over 200 pounds. I could easily carry more if I wanted to but I don’t find a need to. I try to have as much of a much of a wildness experience as possible as a way of getting away from everything. When I add an extra piece of gear I feel I’m getting away from that.
Were I draw the line is when “ultra-light backpackers” beg for food or need to squeeze into an already over full shelter because they have no tent. A hiker who needs to begs for food or shelter space, I consider them irresponsible hikers - something that I am strongly opposes to.
Bottom line is: If a hiker needs others to make accommodations for him/her they are irresponsible. If you are able to safely take care of yourself without the need for assistance of others then you are a true backpacker.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
07-05-2009, 09:27
I hiked the 220 mile JMT with an ultra runner who's pack weighed 4 1/2 lbs WITH FOOD!
So, that will always be my ultimate goal although i doubt i'll ever be able to do it.
I think you must be able to pull a 75 miler on any given day to be able to feel comfortable with that kind of weight.
Hey Fiddlehead,
I sure the guy you were could do 75 miles in a day but it really not needed even on the JMT. At any given point on the JMT he can bail out within 30 miles which seems to be the trend theses days that many UL hikers have been doing. The answer seems to be, if the weather gets bad, I'll just pull off and leave the trail but then the same hikers will brag how light they are traveling. I don't go for that type of hiking myself but it seems to happen a lot.
Wolf
fiddlehead
07-05-2009, 09:34
Hey Wolf, you have the record for thru-hikers that i've seen on the trail for the lightest pack. But that 24 oz beer you were carrying probably put you over the 4 lb mark that time in Northern CA.
I meant that people who travel that light need to be in excellent shape in case of bad weather when they most likely have to keep on going as they don't have a 3 or 4 season tent, or enough food to last a few days holed up in a big snow.
I know you carry a bivy that would keep you alive in those conditions (probably)
But my friend would attempt to hike thru it IMO.
We had no tent at the time. We had hiked it first for practice and it didn't rain at all so, figured we could ditch the tent. It ended up raining 3 out of the 5 1/2 days it took us.
We just kept going. I don't regret doing it the way we did at all. We had an amazing experience and i learned so much about sleep deprivation and ultra running and extreme hiking on that trip.
modiyooch
07-05-2009, 10:16
I can carry a light base weight, but I WILL carry the water weight. I've been thirsty too many times. I like true pure spring water or piped water. I tend not to carry a water filter. Even if I do, I prefer not to drink out of a mud hole. If I carry the filter, it is for emergency use only ie, I did have to drink from the shenandoah river during a drought season.
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 10:20
Hey Wolf, you have the record for thru-hikers that i've seen on the trail for the lightest pack. But that 24 oz beer you were carrying probably put you over the 4 lb mark that time in Northern CA.
I meant that people who travel that light need to be in excellent shape in case of bad weather when they most likely have to keep on going as they don't have a 3 or 4 season tent, or enough food to last a few days holed up in a big snow.
I know you carry a bivy that would keep you alive in those conditions (probably)
But my friend would attempt to hike thru it IMO.
We had no tent at the time. We had hiked it first for practice and it didn't rain at all so, figured we could ditch the tent. It ended up raining 3 out of the 5 1/2 days it took us.
We just kept going. I don't regret doing it the way we did at all. We had an amazing experience and i learned so much about sleep deprivation and ultra running and extreme hiking on that trip.
Yea that is what I was trying to understand when starting the thread. Going sub UL for a week and taking the verbal heat from other hikers. Ditching even the lightest gear to have a better experience over some creature comforts. Sort of the leave the stove at home and only take non cook foods. etc.:cool:
garlic08
07-05-2009, 10:40
Every pound makes a difference to me. On my hikes, there's nothing like the feeling of walking into a resupply town with the lightest possible pack (8 pounds plus or minus for me), no food, no water, just dancing along the trail with an essentially negligible pack. Once someone asked me (jealously, I think) what I was "giving up" to be able to do that. All I could think of was everything I was gaining, like painfree and fun hiking. My Tarptent Contrail gives me all the shelter I've ever needed, my Z-rest pad gives me a fine rest, I trust my Marmot Helium bag for the most extreme three-season conditions, I really enjoy and thrive on my stoveless diet, I carry full raingear and a warm jacket and extra socks, I have a small sharp knife, fire-making tools and other survival gear, and my 9 oz frameless pack carries it all with ease and comfort--so other than the bear rifle, what am I missing?
shelterbuilder
07-05-2009, 10:42
I'm not a UL person, but I am always trying to reduce my pack weight. I may not hike any faster or farther, but I feel better at the end of the day.
I have no qualms about carrying more gear if I think that I'm going to need it, so for me, it boils down to a question of safety. If I'm going somewhere where I think that my safety will be compromised with less gear, I'll take more. After the safety issues are addressed, next comes comfort....
Having said that, I should note that most of my hiking is under woodland conditions, not above treeline or under "extreme" conditons. I've also gotten away from the need to know exactly how much my pack weighs - if I shoulder it, and it feels right, then it is right!
bigcranky
07-05-2009, 11:06
Ten or fifteen years ago mainstream gear was heavy and "bomb proof." Packs weighed seven pounds, tents were eight pounds, sleeping bags three or four pounds or more, and we got to carry 2.5 pound Everest-ready Goretex rain shells. Using gear from the major manufacturers, it was difficult to get a base weight below 30+ pounds.
At that point, the ultralight wackos were carrying base weights of 15 or 20 pounds, and everyone else gnashed their teeth about how unprepared they were.
These days it's easy to go into REI or any other outfitter and buy well-made lightweight gear and have a base weight of 15 pounds or so. The ultralight wackos are carrying 5 or 6 pound base weights (no offense, Wolf), and everyone else is still gnashing their teeth about how unprepared they are.
Here's the thing, though -- the reason we have all the new lightweight choices is due to those guys with the balloon mattresses experimenting in their backyards, and on extreme UL trips, pushing the envelope and trying stuff that we would never think of. We can thank the tinkerers and the UL fringe for our current selection of gear, when anyone can have a lightweight pack.
So that's why it's important to have those people out there, always pushing a little farther into the UL fringe.
UL, or lightweight, minimalist, whatever isn't new either. Someone mentioned Daniel Boone and what he carried. Stated by an UL'er from way back... "Go light; the lighter the better, so that you have the simplest material for health, comfort and enjoyment". This was written By George Washington Sears aka "Nessmuk" in 1920.
http://www.ctfischerknives.com/nessmuk_book.htm
It sounds like that the real discussion is:
What is comfort?
It sounds like that the real discussion is:
What is comfort?
Darn keyboard!!
It sounds like the real discussion is:
What is comfort?
Hiking with lighter weight on your shoulders
Hiking with more weight so one can carry better quality / more equipment
How much equipment to carry to cover what eventuality?
Lighter weight means one has to rely on his bacon to avoid problems.
Carrying more means one can withstand a wider range of extremes without retreating.
I just think its two different philosophies that one can endlessly discuss.:)
I'm not a UL person, but I am always trying to reduce my pack weight. I may not hike any faster or farther, but I feel better at the end of the day.
I have no qualms about carrying more gear if I think that I'm going to need it, so for me, it boils down to a question of safety. If I'm going somewhere where I think that my safety will be compromised with less gear, I'll take more. After the safety issues are addressed, next comes comfort....
Having said that, I should note that most of my hiking is under woodland conditions, not above treeline or under "extreme" conditons. I've also gotten away from the need to know exactly how much my pack weighs - if I shoulder it, and it feels right, then it is right!
I agree with what you say.
But if I could add;
One hike, in may, I went light weight and carried a summer weight bag and a tarp. My buddy went his usual standard weight. My pack weighed 12 # total, his weighed 25-30 . We camped overnight by a creek at about 7000 feet. At three am I started to get pretty cold. To make a long story short, I had an uncomfortable night. Now my friend slept fine because he had a full one man tent with a 30 degree bag. Now if I had used my head, I would have slept up on a hill 60 feet away, gotten away from the hollow where the creek ran through, and gotten away from that little micro climate. Of course, the hike out was much more comfortable for me then him. So we were both a bit out of sync with each other.
So comfort can be more about how you use your noggin then what you bring and it can also help if your equipment compliments who your hiking with.
drastic_quench
07-05-2009, 15:28
I'm pleased with 25 - 30lbs including food and water, and it seems like I'm lightening up over time as I purchase newer/lighter gear and use cheap-but-effective substitutes like Tyvek. I cut out some luxuries like coffee and alcohol most of the time. Those are things I would rather save for town - even though that coffee is great in the morning.
Wolf - 23000
07-05-2009, 16:00
Ten or fifteen years ago mainstream gear was heavy and "bomb proof." Packs weighed seven pounds, tents were eight pounds, sleeping bags three or four pounds or more, and we got to carry 2.5 pound Everest-ready Goretex rain shells. Using gear from the major manufacturers, it was difficult to get a base weight below 30+ pounds.
At that point, the ultralight wackos were carrying base weights of 15 or 20 pounds, and everyone else gnashed their teeth about how unprepared they were.
These days it's easy to go into REI or any other outfitter and buy well-made lightweight gear and have a base weight of 15 pounds or so. The ultralight wackos are carrying 5 or 6 pound base weights (no offense, Wolf), and everyone else is still gnashing their teeth about how unprepared they are.
Here's the thing, though -- the reason we have all the new lightweight choices is due to those guys with the balloon mattresses experimenting in their backyards, and on extreme UL trips, pushing the envelope and trying stuff that we would never think of. We can thank the tinkerers and the UL fringe for our current selection of gear, when anyone can have a lightweight pack.
So that's why it's important to have those people out there, always pushing a little farther into the UL fringe.
Bigcranky,
I'm not sure were you were shopping 10 or 15 years ago but UL gear has been around sense my first backpacking trip in 1989 – 20 years ago. I know 20 years ago, my base weight was less than 4 pounds. Maybe if you picked up your gear from Walmart or Dicks Sport Goods I could see someone carrying a 7 – 8 pounds tent, 3 – 4 pound sleeping bag, etc. Come on. Gear back then did not weigh that much.
As for pushing the envelope, I've been known to do it a little but it was always done safely so that I did not need assistance from others. Even when I did the JMT with 18 oz base weight, I was rain on several days, hail on and snowed on briefly but I was still able to make it across safely. I carried more food than fiddlehead but hey, it was a different experience. :)
What gets me is everyone focus on gear, gear, gear when they think of UL backpacking but there is more to it than the gear. It is also knowing how to REALLY use the gear properly and have the wilderness skills to know what to do when things get rough. That is something many new UL don't have. You can tell by just talking with them. Many of them would not have a clue if they got in a rainstorm and could not get to a shelter, or rely on others to make up for their lack of food. etc. That is what gets me.
Wolf
bigcranky
07-05-2009, 16:25
Come on. Gear back then did not weigh that much.
Hey, Wolf,
Sure it did. 15 years ago when I started backpacking every respectable outfitter was selling Dana and Gregory packs that weighed 7 or 8 pounds empty (I still have mine.) The popular "light" tent was the Clip Flashlight, which was under 5 pounds but not much, as I recall. Most of the backpacking tents I saw on the trail were the big Timberlines that weighed 8-10 pounds (for the Scouts and traditionalists) or the bomber North Face mountaineering tents (for the "serious" backpackers.) Those were 8-12 pounds. All this was from serious outfitter shops.
I don't ever recall seeing anything in a regular backpacking outfitter that might be called "ultralight" -- maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places? My first foray into lightening my load was to buy a 9x9 foot coated ripstop tarp from Campmor -- this was before Silnylon tarps became available. Maybe 1995 or so. It was 2 pounds, plus about a pound for guylines and stakes. Still, it was much lighter than any tent I owned. (I still have it.)
None of my gear came from Wallymart or the big sports stores. I shopped at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports in Richmond, for the most part, or once in a while at REI in the D.C. area. The Campmor catalog was always a big hit when it arrived in the mail. Again, none of these places sold anything like the gear available now.
My backpacking instructor was the book The Complete Walker, by Colin Fletcher. The third edition talked a little about lightening up, including stories about some early UL hikers out West. It took me several years to get my base weight below 35 pounds (!!!); this was all before I had ever heard of UL backpacking, or Ray Jardine, or seen any alternative gear on the market.
I think your 4-pound base weight in 1989 was far more unusual then than your current base weight is today, in comparison to the average backpacker's load.
bigcranky
07-05-2009, 16:27
Wolf, let me add that my original post wasn't aimed in your direction at all. I totally agree that UL hikers need to be completely self sufficient. I've flirted with UL and gone back up to a comfortable 13-15 pound base. That's what makes me happy.
Wolf - 23000
07-05-2009, 17:11
Hey, Wolf,
Sure it did. 15 years ago when I started backpacking every respectable outfitter was selling Dana and Gregory packs that weighed 7 or 8 pounds empty (I still have mine.) The popular "light" tent was the Clip Flashlight, which was under 5 pounds but not much, as I recall. Most of the backpacking tents I saw on the trail were the big Timberlines that weighed 8-10 pounds (for the Scouts and traditionalists) or the bomber North Face mountaineering tents (for the "serious" backpackers.) Those were 8-12 pounds. All this was from serious outfitter shops.
I don't ever recall seeing anything in a regular backpacking outfitter that might be called "ultralight" -- maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places? My first foray into lightening my load was to buy a 9x9 foot coated ripstop tarp from Campmor -- this was before Silnylon tarps became available. Maybe 1995 or so. It was 2 pounds, plus about a pound for guylines and stakes. Still, it was much lighter than any tent I owned. (I still have it.)
None of my gear came from Wallymart or the big sports stores. I shopped at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports in Richmond, for the most part, or once in a while at REI in the D.C. area. The Campmor catalog was always a big hit when it arrived in the mail. Again, none of these places sold anything like the gear available now.
My backpacking instructor was the book The Complete Walker, by Colin Fletcher. The third edition talked a little about lightening up, including stories about some early UL hikers out West. It took me several years to get my base weight below 35 pounds (!!!); this was all before I had ever heard of UL backpacking, or Ray Jardine, or seen any alternative gear on the market.
I think your 4-pound base weight in 1989 was far more unusual then than your current base weight is today, in comparison to the average backpacker's load.
BigCranky,
15 years ago the Clip Flashlight weight was 3 pounds 14 oz, the Clip Flashlight Magic weight was 2 pounds 14 oz. The most common tents on the trail were normal made by North Face, Sierra Design, or Slumber Jack. There were a few odd balls but the average 2 person tent was around 4 pounds. Gregory and Dana were very popular as you said but only the extremely large sizes were 7 or 8 pounds – needed if you were going to Alaska or out for 30 days. Gregory and Dana were also design for those that were planning on carrying a lot of weight. There were plenty of lighter packs such as Camp Trails, Mountain Smith, North Face or even Jansports that were on the trail that were lighter than your Dana. My Camp Trail pack I used for winter hiking for years weight in at 22 oz.
Most of my shopping was done at the same stores. My point is, the equipment has been out there for years to travel UL but many people didn't care as much what they were throwing on their back as they do now. Some still don't.
And I did not take your statement as aim at me. It is one of my pet pees of hikers claiming to be these great UL hikers relying on others for help. Or write article on UL when the only time they travel is during good weather or conductions.
Peace,
Wolf
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 17:48
It sounds like that the real discussion is:
What is comfort?
Avoiding Sleep Deprevation, Hypothermia, soaked to the skin. Baked or broiled in the desert; dehydrated like some of the foods we carry.:eek:\
See above post,
We want to keep Big Cranky Happy!
I am down to a FSO weight (before food / water) of 24 Lbs. With a pack weight of just over 18 Lbs. I can carry 6 (1.5 Lb) days worth of food & 2 ltrs of water before I exceed the suggested weight limit of my pack, AND & am very comfortable on the trail and in camp.
Yea, I could wear shorts (Instead of a kilt) & save over 12 Oz, I could drop the hiking poles & 1.5 Lbs. Could lose the MP# player & spare batteries & save another 3.5 Oz. My insulated mug is 5 Oz, & I suppose I could just eat out of the cook pot. I don't really need the 3 Oz "emergency kit" (12' spectra cord, days use TP, Spare lighter, etc.) or the 1.2 Oz spare reading glasses. At 10 Oz, do I really need all 10 tent stakes AND 8 figure nines?
BUT: I like the comfort of the kilt, the hiking poles have saved a few hikes (My knees). I have gotten a bad "ear worm" that lasted 4 days so the MP3 stays. I can heat water to a boil & put it in the mug & even in sub freezing temps, let the food "cook" while I do other stuff, & still eat a hot meal. The emergency kit is just that, have used it several times. On a nice day, I don't need any of the tent stakes, can use: rocks, sticks, tree roots, etc. BUT on a really bad day, I'll carry the tent stakes & 9s. AND I have had REALLY bad days weather wise.
That's my answer, a 30 Lb pack weight (with food / water) is as low as I go.
Wise Old Owl
07-05-2009, 17:56
Interesting, - that is what I believe a lot of folk do, buy or make light stuff so you can carry more stuff!
modiyooch
07-05-2009, 19:38
Hey, Wolf,
Sure it did. 15 years ago when I started backpacking every respectable outfitter was selling Dana and Gregory packs that weighed 7 or 8 pounds . I agree with wolf2003. My Sierra tent weighed less in 1980 than the Sierra replacement tent (same/similar model) in 2000. That tent lastest 20 years, withstood the elements, lightweight and went up in a matter of minutes.
the lighter the better. Im trying to make it feel like i dont have a pack on.
Feral Bill
07-06-2009, 14:03
Ten years ago my daughter and I hiked the Wonderland trail. She was ten so I carried almost all the group gear, food, and fuel. With five days supply and no real effort to save weight I had a 40 pound pack. This included my 7lb pack, Clip Flashlight, heavy wool sweater, Goretex mountain parka, and, of course, my SVEA stove. I'm pretty certain that much of peoples 50+ lb packs is simply excess food and multiple sets of clothes, otherwise I can't see where the weight comes from.
In any event, even in the sixties it was quite possible to carry very light loads in summer weather. The gear was available and worked.
Wolf - 23000
07-06-2009, 18:05
the lighter the better. Im trying to make it feel like i dont have a pack on.
jmj5k,
That is not always true. Sometimes lighter is better but if that was the case you be walking around naked forging for food. Traveling UL also has some disadvantages that many hikers don't even think about it. For example, one of the biggest signs that many people look for to distinction between a day hiker or a thru-hiker is the pack. It makes a huge different when say trying to get a ride into town. I've had to walk into may towns because I simple could not get a ride into place most hikers consider an “easy hitch”.
Also talking with other hikers. I don't know how many times I've heard, “how do you do that?”, “what do you carry?” “I wish my pack was like that.” After a while it really gets old. Or even doing simple things like set up camp and hikers making a big deal over everything you bring out of your pack. It gets old after a while. Or what about these “ultra-light hikers” who come into a crowed shelter and insist everyone makes room for them because they have no shelter.
Light is good but it is more important to be safe and just having fun at it.
Wolf
I would have to agree that too light is when you are no longer "self sufficient" (use term loosely) on trail. If you don't have a place to sleep, food to eat, and clothes to keep you warm, then you are unprepared and acting irresponsibly. This is also highly unnecessary. So many options are available that fill these capacities with minimal weight. There is no excuse to be hiking without shelter, no matter the weight savings.
njordan2
07-06-2009, 20:14
It's too light when you are too cold.
Travel light, freeze at night.
You can be confortable on the trail or comfortable at camp.
Your pack's light enough if you bring what you need.
Some of us need less than others do. :-?
what heavier items are you thinking you need to carry in order to be better prepared and for what? 3lb tent vs 10oz tarp? if you know how to use it both will keep you dry. Neither are going to save you from animal that really wants to get in.
A tent will do a better job keeping ticks away.
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2009, 22:12
A tent will do a better job keeping ticks away.
I have never had ticks at night, the previous tent kept skunks, possum and nasty looking voluptuous women at the bar away!:eek:
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2009, 22:24
I would have to agree that too light is when you are no longer "self sufficient" (use term loosely) on trail. If you don't have a place to sleep, food to eat, and clothes to keep you warm, then you are unprepared and acting irresponsibly. This is also highly unnecessary. So many options are available that fill these capacities with minimal weight. There is no excuse to be hiking without shelter, no matter the weight savings.
It's too light when you are too cold.
Travel light, freeze at night.
You can be confortable on the trail or comfortable at camp.
Wow isn't WB and Hiker's great ?- that is exactly what I was looking for.
CrumbSnatcher
07-06-2009, 22:27
if i ran out of food or mountainmoney on trail, i was too light!:)
Wise Old Owl
07-06-2009, 22:56
if i ran out of food or mountainmoney on trail, i was too light!:)
glad you have a sense of humor!:D
Snowleopard
07-07-2009, 01:18
UL, or lightweight, minimalist, whatever isn't new either. Someone mentioned Daniel Boone and what he carried. Stated by an UL'er from way back... "Go light; the lighter the better, so that you have the simplest material for health, comfort and enjoyment". This was written By George Washington Sears aka "Nessmuk" in 1920.
http://www.ctfischerknives.com/nessmuk_book.htm
Russb-- thanks for the link. I just read the whole thing and it's great. His pack weight never exceeded 26 lb, including canoe!
I go out for a long weekend carrying 16lbs, including food, and water. The only camp comforts I sacrifice are, I don't have camp shoes, or a chair. Otherwise I eat good, and sleep warm and dry.
I usually spend all day hiking, and most of the night sleeping. Only a few hours awake in camp. I prefer to sacrifice camp comfort for hiking comfort.
I don't try to tell others how to hike, but at the same time I don't apologize for going UL.
River Runner
07-07-2009, 02:34
BigCranky,
15 years ago the Clip Flashlight weight was 3 pounds 14 oz, the Clip Flashlight Magic weight was 2 pounds 14 oz. The most common tents on the trail were normal made by North Face, Sierra Design, or Slumber Jack. There were a few odd balls but the average 2 person tent was around 4 pounds. Gregory and Dana were very popular as you said but only the extremely large sizes were 7 or 8 pounds – needed if you were going to Alaska or out for 30 days. Gregory and Dana were also design for those that were planning on carrying a lot of weight. There were plenty of lighter packs such as Camp Trails, Mountain Smith, North Face or even Jansports that were on the trail that were lighter than your Dana. My Camp Trail pack I used for winter hiking for years weight in at 22 oz.
Most of my shopping was done at the same stores. My point is, the equipment has been out there for years to travel UL but many people didn't care as much what they were throwing on their back as they do now. Some still don't.
Wolf
Wow - the gear must have gained a lot of weight between 1995 and 2002-2003 when I first started backpacking. There were very few tents on the market that I know of that weighed under 4 lb for a 2 person tent. (Actually, a lot of the mainstream outfitters still don't have tents under 4 lb for a 2 person now). Most packs I saw weighed between 4 and 6 lb and had lots of pockets, as do a lot of packs still in outfitters stores, maybe leaning more toward the 4 lb mark now than the 6 lb. Hardly any outfitters carry quilts. The better ones carry a few lightweight down bags like Western Mountaineering or Montbell, but a lot of them still carry some pretty hefty synthetic bags. I think one more be hard pressed to go UL in a traditional outfitter, much less the SUL you go Wolf.
While I admire the base weights you've been able to make work for you, I'm afraid I would be very cold if I tried an 18 oz base weight - my light weight Nunatak quilt (ghost with an ounce less down for summer) and Dri-Ducks jacket weight slightly more than that together.
River Runner
07-07-2009, 02:40
jmj5k,
That is not always true. Sometimes lighter is better but if that was the case you be walking around naked forging for food. Traveling UL also has some disadvantages that many hikers don't even think about it. For example, one of the biggest signs that many people look for to distinction between a day hiker or a thru-hiker is the pack. It makes a huge different when say trying to get a ride into town. I've had to walk into may towns because I simple could not get a ride into place most hikers consider an “easy hitch”.
True, but the converse can also be true - they may figure they don't have enough room for a hiker and a massive pack.
Light is good but it is more important to be safe and just having fun at it.
Wolf
Very true.
River Runner
07-07-2009, 03:00
It sounds like the real discussion is:
What is comfort?
Hiking with lighter weight on your shoulders
Hiking with more weight so one can carry better quality / more equipment
I'll agree with the first part, comfort is hiking with lighter weight on your shoulders. I will somewhat disagree with the second part. A lot of times lighter gear is higher quality than heavier gear. What a hiker is willing to spend can make a substantial difference in pack weight - cheap gear is usually on the heavy side. (Well other than a lot of homemade gear, which would usually be pretty costly in the long run if the maker counted their time.)
When it comes right down to it, how much comfort does carrying a lot of items really add? Is the hour spent in a camp chair really more comfortable than the same hour lounging on a sleeping pad or leaning back against a tree trunk? Is boiling water in 3 minutes on a Whisperlite or in a Jetboil really more comfortable than boiling the same water in 5-10 minutes on an alcohol or Esbit stove? Is the thin layer of insulation that's squashed under you in a sleeping bag really more comfortable than sleeping on top of your pad under a quilt? Does your belly really feel more comfortably full after a gourmet-style cooked meal than it does after a freeze-dried dinner?
I think a lot of what people think of as 'comfort' is really a mind-set of what their comfort-zone is, of what sort of refinements they need to enjoy themselves rather than truly what they need to be comfortable.
While it may be true that lighter hikers are more comfortable on the Trail, and heavier hikers are more comfortable in camp, this truism overlooks weight's potential impact on the frequency, timing and duration of one's roadwalks/hitches and town stops.
Wolf - 23000
07-07-2009, 08:20
Wow - the gear must have gained a lot of weight between 1995 and 2002-2003 when I first started backpacking. There were very few tents on the market that I know of that weighed under 4 lb for a 2 person tent. (Actually, a lot of the mainstream outfitters still don't have tents under 4 lb for a 2 person now). Most packs I saw weighed between 4 and 6 lb and had lots of pockets, as do a lot of packs still in outfitters stores, maybe leaning more toward the 4 lb mark now than the 6 lb. Hardly any outfitters carry quilts. The better ones carry a few lightweight down bags like Western Mountaineering or Montbell, but a lot of them still carry some pretty hefty synthetic bags. I think one more be hard pressed to go UL in a traditional outfitter, much less the SUL you go Wolf.
While I admire the base weights you've been able to make work for you, I'm afraid I would be very cold if I tried an 18 oz base weight - my light weight Nunatak quilt (ghost with an ounce less down for summer) and Dri-Ducks jacket weight slightly more than that together.
The tents were out there even in 1995 and very popular on the trail. If your mainstream outfitters are carrying 2 man tents that weight is more than 4 pound, might I suggest changing stores. It is too easy to get a tent like Mountain Hardwear Helion, Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight or an Appy Trails Marks III are all 2-man tents under 4 pounds that can be picked up from REI or Campmor. There are others and lighter tents of course but these tents are very easy to obtain from very popular stores.
As for packs, if you are looking at getting a 4 – 6 pound pack then you are planning already to carry a large pack and a lot of weight. If you look at the smaller sizes, they don’t weight that much. My favorite pack currently weight is just over 6 oz – after trimming it down a little. I purchase from REI for $25. Most of my shopping is not done in fancy outfitters and done in traditional outfitters. The size of your pack and its weight, places a huge factor in how much or how little you are going to carry.
I’ll explain. If you buy a bigger pack than you need to fit all your gear, most hikers have a tendency to fill it up with things they don’t need. Or if your pack is design to carry a lot of weight comfortable, most hikers are less likely to take something out that they don’t need. This method also can work in reverse. If you have a pack that makes you feel the weight more when it gets heavy, most hikers are more likely to get rid of the extra gear they don’t need to lighten up the load.
Wolf
Jim Adams
07-07-2009, 17:48
My current pack weight for the AT (weekend or thru) is 26lbs. with 4 days food, water and a liter of whiskey.
1990, my external frame pack was 2lb. 12oz., 20* bag was 2lb. 14oz., 16'x12' coated nylon tarp was 2lb. ...lightweight gear was around without looking hard for it BUT (lol) my limited backpacking experience had me on top of Springer at 72lbs. I learned a little during that thru and got my weight down to 41lbs. by northern Va.
geek
I don't always carry a tent but I prefer it over a tarp for many reasons. :-?Where I can put a tent that I can't a tarp is huge! Ease of set up, less space restrictions are also pluses for the tent. Views are easier/ better from my tent! Girls prefer tents!:D
As for comfort of hiking over comfort of camping- not so fast.:confused: A well rested Nean is MUCH more comfortable hiking than grouchy, sleep deprived, gnawed on UL Nean who has been up all night warding off skeeters, snakes, spiders, ticks, scorpions, ants, flies, and water all night.:eek:
I'll most likely carry the extra 2 pounds, quite easily I might add. :banana Strong mind, strong body.:p Most folks are not overloaded w/ the basics- its all the other stuff they carry.;)
Russb-- thanks for the link. I just read the whole thing and it's great. His pack weight never exceeded 26 lb, including canoe!
It is a really cool read. Nessmuk was a legend for sure. I am trying to find other writings of his.
Snowleopard
07-07-2009, 20:18
I have a copy of a reprint of:
Canoeing the Adirondacks With Nessmuk: The Adirondack Letters of George Washington Sears (Paperback)
by George Washington Sears (Author), Dan Brenan (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/Canoeing-Adirondacks-Nessmuk-Adirondack-Washington/dp/0815625944/ref=pd_rhf_shvl_2
The following link has most of this online:
http://robroy.dyndns.info/books/gws/N.HTM
A bit of searching found:
Poems by Nessmuk (George Washington Sears):
http://www.zianet.com/jgray/nessmuk/forest_runes/ForestRunes.pdf
Woodcraft by Nessmuk (seems to be longer than what russb linked to above, more material):
http://www.zianet.com/jgray/nessmuk/woodcraft/title_page.html
Article about Nessmuk:
http://www.joycetice.com/articles/msbnessmuk.htm
Location of Mount Nessmuk:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=tioga,+pa&sll=42.671992,-71.866851&sspn=0.012968,0.02723&ie=UTF8&ll=41.790641,-77.39203&spn=0.026302,0.05446&t=p&z=15
hikingtime
07-07-2009, 20:32
When is it too light? Where do you draw the line?
1-When someone says, "I don't need to prepare for every possible contigency" and then doesn't even bring gear for likely events like cold weather in the Whites, rain or long stretches between food stops.
2-When someone brags to everyone that he is a superultralite or xtreme ultralite backpacker, and then has to mooch food, water, fuel and equipmment from the backpackers he made fun of for carrying food, water, fuel and enough equipment.
3- When the search and rescue has to go out and attempt to save him because he thought he "had the knowledge," and didn't want to be burdened with one extra pound of gear that would've saved him. Remember those 3 experienced, expert climbers in 2006 on Mount Hood who decided to go "fast and light?" I'll bet their families wish they had taken sleeping bags that were warmer than "fast and light."
MrSparex
07-07-2009, 21:17
I left my sleeping pad at home, I had a H. hammock and a goose down bag (Prius?) which I have stored improperly (I squashed it flat) and spent the night about a mile south of the Settlers Museum near Marion, Va. ....this past Thursday night...I thought I was going to freeze to death. Call me a wimp and yes I know it's JULY! I was totally mad at myself for not bringing a light jacket. The guy (super nice) at the museum said it was strange weather for that time of year. That was frustrating.
Well to help the thread I am happy at 20 lbs without water or food and add a little from there. Others are going sub 10 and cutting comfort in a big way.Those barstards!!!!! I hope you turned them in!!!
Wise Old Owl
07-08-2009, 00:34
Those barstards!!!!! I hope you turned them in!!!
I actually hike in the winter when its easy to catch up to the shivering bastards! Then I take name's to embarrass them here on this forum... Just like that show "To catch a UL Hiker!" with Mike Handsome....
Punked....:rolleyes:
Jim Adams
07-08-2009, 10:26
I don't always carry a tent but I prefer it over a tarp for many reasons. :-?Where I can put a tent that I can't a tarp is huge! Ease of set up, less space restrictions are also pluses for the tent. Views are easier/ better from my tent! Girls prefer tents!:D
As for comfort of hiking over comfort of camping- not so fast.:confused: A well rested Nean is MUCH more comfortable hiking than grouchy, sleep deprived, gnawed on UL Nean who has been up all night warding off skeeters, snakes, spiders, ticks, scorpions, ants, flies, and water all night.:eek:
I'll most likely carry the extra 2 pounds, quite easily I might add. :banana Strong mind, strong body.:p Most folks are not overloaded w/ the basics- its all the other stuff they carry.;)
Nean,
Good post...lots of wisdom there!
geek
Wolf - 23000
07-08-2009, 10:59
My current pack weight for the AT (weekend or thru) is 26lbs. with 4 days food, water and a liter of whiskey.
1990, my external frame pack was 2lb. 12oz., 20* bag was 2lb. 14oz., 16'x12' coated nylon tarp was 2lb. ...lightweight gear was around without looking hard for it BUT (lol) my limited backpacking experience had me on top of Springer at 72lbs. I learned a little during that thru and got my weight down to 41lbs. by northern Va.
geek
Is that including your cat's weight in your pack? :D
Wolf
Well to help the thread I am happy at 20 lbs without water or food and add a little from there. Others are going sub 10 and cutting comfort in a big way.
You can easily go sub 10 base weight without cutting any comfort or safety at all.
I'm a little surprised at the attitude on this forum regarding UL hikers and safety. If I had to guess, more rescues are required for those carrying excessively heavy loads than those going UL. (Even when adjusted proportionally.)
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 15:59
The unmentioned issue is, "Comfort for when." Some people want comfort for when they are in camp, and for them, camp (and meals) are much of the delight in backpacking. When that is the case, a 10# pack is a mistake. Other people want comfort for walking, to cover as much territory (or more difficult territory) as possible, with nights merely being a necessary evil between the delights of seeing the trail and its beauty. For them, lighter means more comfort, less fatigue, more miles. Neither way is intrinsically good (or better); it depends on what your purpose is. I am usually an ULer, but if my wife and I are going to mainly base camp and day hike in an area, I bring a lot more, to go a shorter distance.
Thruhikers have a particular orientation: 2100 miles before the season ends. So they tend to end up as ULers regardless of how they start. Others who are doing sections can afford to carry more. And yes, some thrus carry a lot, and some sectioners carry little. But the fact remains: Your purpose controls what you carry. Or it should.
TW
With a 10 pound base it's still fairly very easy to have a warm sleeping bag, full size mattress, hot food, dry spare clothes, and a portable shelter with bug protection.
I guess if comfort is something beyond that then maybe you need more weight.
Wolf - 23000
07-09-2009, 06:10
You can easily go sub 10 base weight without cutting any comfort or safety at all.
I'm a little surprised at the attitude on this forum regarding UL hikers and safety. If I had to guess, more rescues are required for those carrying excessively heavy loads than those going UL. (Even when adjusted proportionally.)
JohnnyB,
I don't think anyone is really against going UL or saying you can't travel under 10 pounds safely. I do it myself with 1 - 4 pounds all the time. What some of us are saying is there are too many hikers that need to rely on other for gear/food that they should have been carrying. Some will even put their safety in question to save a few onces.
I'm sure everyone will agree with the fact a person pack weight really is not an accurate reflection on how prepare or unprepared that hiker is. A hiker can be carrying a 50 backpack but less prepare for bad weight when compare with a hiker carrying 5 pounds. On the flip side, how many hikers have you run into that didn’t have any kind of shelter, or are starving because they didn’t bring enough food, or are freezing when it gets cold out. In 2006 while hiking southbound through NC/Tenn/GA I was running into a lot of hikers all traveling with a lot more gear than myself but many were freezing at night or some during the day.
Wolf
I'm sure everyone will agree with the fact a person pack weight really is not an accurate reflection on how prepare or unprepared that hiker is. A hiker can be carrying a 50 backpack but less prepare for bad weight when compare with a hiker carrying 5 pounds.
Ok, yeah I agree with that totally.
On the flip side, how many hikers have you run into that didn’t have any kind of shelter, or are starving because they didn’t bring enough food, or are freezing when it gets cold out. In 2006 while hiking southbound through NC/Tenn/GA I was running into a lot of hikers all traveling with a lot more gear than myself but many were freezing at night or some during the day.
Wolf
Well, I mostly hike up in the Northeast and I almost never see anybody even attempting UL, and I haven't come across anybody that didn't have enough food or shelter. I more often run across people who are a safety hazard because they carry far too much.
Just a couple of weeks ago I came across a section hiker near the Baldpates who was carrying in excess of 65 to 70 pounds. He actually asked me and a friend to help carry his stuff, and got pissed off at us that we wouldn't. (He was uninjured.) He told us he could have easily got hurt carrying that much weight so we should have helped him lolz...!
But again I agree with you. Anybody that has to rely on others except in cases of extremely bad luck/misfortune has gone too light. Heading out expecting to mooch of others is bad form.
Wolf - 23000
07-09-2009, 13:27
[/font][/color]
Well, I mostly hike up in the Northeast and I almost never see anybody even attempting UL, and I haven't come across anybody that didn't have enough food or shelter. I more often run across people who are a safety hazard because they carry far too much.
Just a couple of weeks ago I came across a section hiker near the Baldpates who was carrying in excess of 65 to 70 pounds. He actually asked me and a friend to help carry his stuff, and got pissed off at us that we wouldn't. (He was uninjured.) He told us he could have easily got hurt carrying that much weight so we should have helped him lolz...!
JohnB,
There are all types of people who hike the trail. The section hiker you ran into near Baldpates, wanted you to be basically his mother. He packed up a lot of crap then expected you and your friend to carry it for him. I’ve run into both types, hikers who carry too much they risk their safety and other who carry to little without the knowledge who also risk their safety.
So what is the solution? There is none other than to warn hikers not to go UL without the experience to go with it. There is to much push to travel super UL that anyone can do it. What most hikers don’t think about is what happens when things don’t always go as plan. I've been hit with many bad storms over the years as I'm sure you have too. What makes things worst is when hikers who only go out in “right” weather come out with all this great information on UL Backpacking in books, videos, websites.
Back in 1993, there was a hiker who froze to death on the PCT trying to save weight – the same year Ray Jardine came out with his book The PCT Handbook. He had the equipment I’m sure that could have saved his life but didn’t have the experience to go with it. I ran into a lot of Jardine’s fans. All were carrying at least 2 or 3 times more weight than me. Jardine taught them how to make their equipment but what he didn’t teach them is how to truly use it. Hiking through the Sierras in CA, I’ve helped out more than a few hikers that were over their head.
That is why you may think there is a “backlash” against UL hiking. I personal neither am for or against UL hiking. Only hiking safe. lol
Just my $.02
Wolf
Ha... I started hiking in the 70's.. ..hiked in tennis shoes...used a poncho for raingear..slept on a thin foam pad under a sheet of plastic...cooked over a fire using one of those metal army cups with a spoon.. ate lots of beenie weenie..poptarts.. and drank tang... then I evolved with the gear.. had the Sierra Designs Meteor Light.. original thermarest.. complete cookset.. small coleman stove.. full rain suit... had to buy a Dana Terraplane to haul all that heavy stuff in and hiked in boots... I carried half my body weight but I loved all of that stuff and enjoyed using it. I don't remember anybody caring about what it weighed we were all just so excited about about all the new stuff that was coming out. Now I back to tennis shoes and my mug and spoon again but I am still in the woods :)
11-12 pound base weight seems to be my limit.
And yes my Dana Terraplane weighed over 7 lbs empty.. but it will always be my favorite peice of gear that I have ever owned.
Scooby99
07-13-2009, 10:01
Spent some time doing more research and came up with a new "fantasy" gear list for summer hiking, there are a few odds and ends missing but base weight under 5lbs with shelter, stove, and even a down jacket.
pack 3.5 oz. Zpacks
pad 4 prolite torso length
liner 1 backpacking light
sleeping bag 11 oz bozeman mountain works
groundcloth 1.5 gossamer gear
raincover 1 zpacks
poncho/shelter 4 oz mountain laurel design
shorts+shirt 6 oz golite
down jacket 7 oz montbell
pot 2
esbit stove 0.5 backpacking light
4 esbit tabs 2 oz
cozy/spoon/fire 3
cup 1
bottle/flask 2.6 Playpus 1 liter(2)
24 H20 tablets 0.7 auqamira tablets
light 0.5 photon LEDs
1st aid 4
hygiene 4
tp/wetwipes 3
windbreaker top 2.6 montbell
windbreaker bottom 2.4 montbell
total oz. 67.3
total lbs. 4.21
Scooby99
07-13-2009, 10:05
sorry, the formatting got as screwy. Where's the edit button?, lol
skinewmexico
07-13-2009, 13:32
UL is just a different skill set. Once you master the skills, it's easy to be safe and light.
DawnTreader
07-13-2009, 14:58
Like many of the above posters, I agree that each individual has their own limits, and experience is needed to decide where those limits are. For me, I need a shelter with bug protection. I am super skinny so, even in the summer I need lots of down, especially in the northeast, where I mainly hike. I have found that the temperature rating on all of the bags and quilts I use do not translate into exact field comfort. For instance.. On my shakedown hikes, the 50 degree sub 1 pound quilt that I thought I would be sufficient for summer trips, was uncomfortable for me at 60 degrees. It is important to use your UL gear before you jump into a long distnace trip. Depending on what time you stop hiking in the day, how far you hike every day, and what your expectations are when you get to a camp spot, all depend on how much comfort you might want to carry..
Ul backpackers in general, with many exceptions, like the challange of gram counting and collecting or making extremely light gear. Most of which is very fragile and needs to be cared for specially or it will not last very long at all.
You can most deffenitly be safe and ultralight, but I prefer to be safe, comfortable and just plain light...
River Runner
07-19-2009, 04:00
sorry, the formatting got as screwy. Where's the edit button?, lol
You get the edit button when you make a donation to help keep the site running. :sun
There is nothing like a reliable and comfortable shelter, so I draw the line by not using too flimsy shelters like tarptents, unless camping in very, very hot and very, very dry areas. :rolleyes:
Jim Adams
07-22-2009, 22:51
Obviously when you have to stay overnight on Mt.Washington. Seems it doesn't matter how much gear you have or your abilities to use it successfully, you are simply neglegent just for being there! Just ask SAR!
geek
I don't always carry a tent but I prefer it over a tarp for many reasons. :-?Where I can put a tent that I can't a tarp is huge! Ease of set up, less space restrictions are also pluses for the tent. Views are easier/ better from my tent! Girls prefer tents!:D
As for comfort of hiking over comfort of camping- not so fast.:confused: A well rested Nean is MUCH more comfortable hiking than grouchy, sleep deprived, gnawed on UL Nean who has been up all night warding off skeeters, snakes, spiders, ticks, scorpions, ants, flies, and water all night.:eek:
I'll most likely carry the extra 2 pounds, quite easily I might add. :banana Strong mind, strong body.:p Most folks are not overloaded w/ the basics- its all the other stuff they carry.;)
Yes, all the other stuff they carry :D
I have weekended with a 5 lb baseweight with no problems.
I liked a plusher pad and added a pound back in.
My week long kit, including cell phone, was under 8 lbs baseweight and it seemed like I was carrying everything but the kitchen sink.
I've added a hammock to my kit, but still kept the week long kit to under 10 lbs.
And for the record, I've had to help out more than one hiker carrying a 50 lb plus pack that were very unprepared for the temperatures to fall below freezing for days in a row.
Weight does NOT equal safety.
Knowledge and carrying appropriate gear, including a comfortable margin in case of freakish weather, does equal safety.
highfisher
09-09-2009, 01:42
I agree with wolf2003. My Sierra tent weighed less in 1980 than the Sierra replacement tent (same/similar model) in 2000. That tent lastest 20 years, withstood the elements, lightweight and went up in a matter of minutes.
I also agree my sierra tent, camptrails pack from my mid 80's thru weighted less than 5# and still use them both on occasion..:eek:
dreamsoftrails
09-09-2009, 13:07
I had to ask, not to stir things up... But when I go to a UL website and I see a 120 pound 40 year old guy in a mummy bag in summer and sleeping on top of well clown baloons to make animals inside a shelter, what is up with that?
Please I am a huge fan of doing it UL and I am not poking fun, but when we get down below lets say 12 lbs, why bother? its a comfort vs survival in the woods. Even Daniel Boone carried a gun & knife and something to start a fire. Probably the first well known UL hiker of the woods.
When is it too light for you?
people carry what they prefer to carry. simple as that. no more discussion needed.
the guy sleeping on the balloons did so because that is what he wanted to do on his hike. it really is not any more complicated than that.
dreamsoftrails
09-09-2009, 13:09
Well to help the thread I am happy at 20 lbs without water or food and add a little from there. Others are going sub 10 and cutting comfort in a big way.
you are assuming that only gear can make one comfortable. some can carry five pounds of gear and sleep more comfortably than a 40 lb gear hauler because one heard this secret that leaves are soft and the other thinks you can only sleep in a shelter.
why does it matter to you if others are comfortable? i am sincerely curious here.
dreamsoftrails
09-09-2009, 19:40
It's too light when you are too cold.
Travel light, freeze at night.
You can be confortable on the trail or comfortable at camp.
i would disagree and say you can do both.
travel light, travel right, cozy at night.
"people carry what they prefer to carry. simple as that. no more discussion needed. "
True for some but often that is not the case.
Knowledge and budget constictions come into play.
For example recently I substituted my Prolite 4 with a NeoAir and my puffy synthetic jacket and wool jumper for the WM Hodded Flash jacket. Total saving in weight of 30 oz and a considerable size reduction, equivalent in space to about two days of food. That also meant I could stuff my seven days of food/gear in a smaller/lighter pack.
As far as "knowledge" several fail to note that you sleep better/warmer when clean and you sleeping bag is also clean and dry (IE air/sun dry as often as you can) also that some may shiver forgetting that a hat, a pair of dry socks and even just a stuff sack over the feet can warm you up and are all generally sitting there waiting to be used.
Franco
"people carry what they prefer to carry. simple as that. no more discussion needed. "
True for some but often that is not the case.
Knowledge and budget constictions come into play.
For example recently I substituted my Prolite 4 with a NeoAir and my puffy synthetic jacket and wool jumper for the WM Hodded Flash jacket. Total saving in weight of 30 oz and a considerable size reduction, equivalent in space to about two days of food. That also meant I could stuff my seven days of food/gear in a smaller/lighter pack.
As far as "knowledge" several fail to note that you sleep better/warmer when clean and you sleeping bag is also clean and dry (IE air/sun dry as often as you can) also that some may shiver forgetting that a hat, a pair of dry socks and even just a stuff sack over the feet can warm you up and are all generally sitting there waiting to be used.
Franco
Very good info.
Outrider
09-11-2009, 03:45
Everyone has their own level of comfort and own idea of what UL is. To one person 30lbs may be UL and someone else may feel that a 5lb base weight is UL. The only person that can answer the question of "When is it too light?' is the individual. There is no right or wrong answer. Hike your own hike.
dreamsoftrails
09-11-2009, 19:13
"people carry what they prefer to carry. simple as that. no more discussion needed. "
True for some but often that is not the case.
Knowledge and budget constictions come into play.
For example recently I substituted my Prolite 4 with a NeoAir and my puffy synthetic jacket and wool jumper for the WM Hodded Flash jacket. Total saving in weight of 30 oz and a considerable size reduction, equivalent in space to about two days of food. That also meant I could stuff my seven days of food/gear in a smaller/lighter pack.
As far as "knowledge" several fail to note that you sleep better/warmer when clean and you sleeping bag is also clean and dry (IE air/sun dry as often as you can) also that some may shiver forgetting that a hat, a pair of dry socks and even just a stuff sack over the feet can warm you up and are all generally sitting there waiting to be used.
Franco
i understand what you are saying, but when we are talking about why people travel light usually it is because they have the resources to choose their gear. while the UL concept is not gear heavy, the gear that is usually ideal is costly.
the thread started out with bafflement about a member of BPL who slept on tube shaped balloons. if i remember correctly he had an expensive sleeping bag and tarp. point is, he was hiking with what he preferred.
the OP was confused about this. If he remains confused, he'll just have to try it for himself.
i understand what you are saying, but when we are talking about why people travel light usually it is because they have the resources to choose their gear. while the UL concept is not gear heavy, the gear that is usually ideal is costly.
the thread started out with bafflement about a member of BPL who slept on tube shaped balloons. if i remember correctly he had an expensive sleeping bag and tarp. point is, he was hiking with what he preferred.
the OP was confused about this. If he remains confused, he'll just have to try it for himself.
I know the individual you are talking about who designed and built the first ever balloon bed. We have both developed some SUL equipment that is, well, cutting edge. For example, I designed a 2000 cu in pack that only weighs 1 ounce. You can find the plans at Gossamergear.com. I certainly wouldn't use it on a thru-hike, but it is fun for a 2 or three day trip.
Developing new gear is a hobby that is separate, but connected, to hiking. It's a challenge to find innovative ways to reduce weight to nothing. In short, it's fun. But at no time do we compromise our personal safety when testing.
For example, I may take a new quilt design out for a weekend but you'll find that either my car is nearby or I have my goto sleeping bag with me as well.
It should be noted that Bill, the individual who designed the Balloon bed, helped in the design of the Bivys that are widely available today. He was also the first person to ever use Cuben Fiber in a backpacking application.
Some of the other things he's come up with are a 20 degree sleeping bag that only weighs 15 ounces, a Cuben fiber Hammock, Cuben fiber rain chaps, and a number of other innovations.
He's been working on a sub 3 lb base weight thru-hike concept. The idea becomes his inspiration.
This is the way that progress is made ... a few individuals like Bill innovate and inspire the rest of us to be creative .... and out of 50 prototypes you may find one thing that works well.
Over a few years of pushing the boundaries you make gains forward. And all of us gain from that work.
I'm glad that guys like Bill are around. Otherwise, we'd all still be hauling SEVA's, cotton clothes, and canvas tents.
mkmangold
09-13-2009, 03:54
I think you are talking about the balloon bed Bill Fornshell made. With some of the SUL hikers, it is a game to see how low you can go - to see how far the limit can be pushed. Which is okay for those that want to do that.
I like that game that others play: let them be the creative guinea pigs and learn what might work for me and my boys. There's something to be said for creativity and envelope pushing.
I like that game that others play: let them be the creative guinea pigs and learn what might work for me and my boys. There's something to be said for creativity and envelope pushing.
With that said, I really wouldn't recommend the balloon bed .... unless your fairly light.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2009, 16:29
I'm writing not from the perspective of a light-weight, or ultra light-weight hiker; instead I'm writing from the viewpoint of one who has encountered many of these folks on the Trail.
How light is too light?
Well, if you've ever had to cadge food or supplies off of another hiker; used other folks' tools, repair kits, cooksets, or water filters; if you've ever had to take up another hiker's offer of dry or extra clothes; and most of all, if you've ever hinted or told other folks in shelters that you were somehow "entitled" to a spot in the place because you had no shelter of your own.......well, if you've ever done any of these things, then you're travelling too light.
Regardless of what weight they elect to carry, a good hiker is always a self-sufficient one. If you catch yourself relying on what other folks have elected to carry in their packs, then you're going too light.
dreamsoftrails
09-13-2009, 16:53
I'm writing not from the perspective of a light-weight, or ultra light-weight hiker; instead I'm writing from the viewpoint of one who has encountered many of these folks on the Trail.
How light is too light?
Well, if you've ever had to cadge food or supplies off of another hiker; used other folks' tools, repair kits, cooksets, or water filters; if you've ever had to take up another hiker's offer of dry or extra clothes; and most of all, if you've ever hinted or told other folks in shelters that you were somehow "entitled" to a spot in the place because you had no shelter of your own.......well, if you've ever done any of these things, then you're travelling too light.
Regardless of what weight they elect to carry, a good hiker is always a self-sufficient one. If you catch yourself relying on what other folks have elected to carry in their packs, then you're going too light.
this is probably the most objective answer.
however, some hike with the neccessary equipment for self sufficiency but still can't pull it off. that is another matter all on its own.
one point i would like to add out there is if you see someone with a small pack out there, don't bombard them with questions, especially with a bunch of ignorant assumptions like 'aren't you cold' 'how do you sleep' 'how do you stay dry' etc. this happened to me a lot but i saw it happen to hiker in a lot more extreme manner in damascus. he walked into the outfitter with a small pack, and immediately was answering questions from a bunch of snobs to the extent you thought he was being questioned for a local town murder.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2009, 16:59
Good point, but be aware that this "snobbery" about one's pack works both ways.
A lot of the ultra light-weight people I've seen enjoy talking about their gear and fielding questions. And more than a few can get sort of smug about it.
But the questions are usually pretty good ones, tho I can understand people getting tired of hearing them every day. And the questions aren't always meant to be scornful or snobbish. It is from such questions as "What are you carrying for extra clothes?" or "How do you get three days of food into such a small bag?".......well, it is from questions such as these that other people learn new things.
And that's beneficial.
garlic08
09-13-2009, 21:44
Good point, but be aware that this "snobbery" about one's pack works both ways.
A lot of the ultra light-weight people I've seen enjoy talking about their gear and fielding questions. And more than a few can get sort of smug about it.
I agree completely, and I also like your previous post defining when a pack is too light. (I'd be curious to know if you have similar wisdom about when it's too heavy! Maybe a new thread.)
I hiked the AT last year with a small pack, and completely enjoyed answering the tons of questions at nearly every stop. I felt like a sales rep for Gossamer Gear and Henry Shires. But I made it a point to never initiate the conversation or tell someone they were doing it wrong, so I think I never annoyed anyone, unlike others I heard about. It really made me feel good when the questioner would make notes, or have me write down shopping web sites, gear manufacturers, etc. This happened quite a bit.
Conversely, I can't remember anyone on the AT hike seriously deriding me for having a small pack and being a danger to myself and others. It was always curiousity. Only once, on the CDT in CO, did a heavy packer struggle past my campsite and scornfully sneer, "Oh, you're one of those UL people." Didn't even say hi.
Jack Tarlin
09-13-2009, 22:00
How's this:
If your pack looks anything like mine, it's too heavy. :D
Seriously, tho, this is indeed a good idea for a new thread and if nobody gets it going tonight, I'll start it off tomorrow when I'm not working.
Too light to me is when you need to make a long hitch into town when you would rather stay on the Trail, rather than having enough food to time your stops where you really want to make them.
Wise Old Owl
09-13-2009, 22:53
You can easily go sub 10 base weight without cutting any comfort or safety at all.
I'm a little surprised at the attitude on this forum regarding UL hikers and safety. If I had to guess, more rescues are required for those carrying excessively heavy loads than those going UL. (Even when adjusted proportionally.)
It's less an attitude and more of a frame of mind. - If you are a happy Backpacker at ten pounds and eating gorp three times a day - cool. Nobody is picking on anyone. It's about going too light and decreasing comfort.
Wise Old Owl
09-13-2009, 23:12
you are assuming that only gear can make one comfortable. some can carry five pounds of gear and sleep more comfortably than a 40 lb gear hauler because one heard this secret that leaves are soft and the other thinks you can only sleep in a shelter.
why does it matter to you if others are comfortable? i am sincerely curious here.
Digging deeper into the same curiosity as the thread just got some life.
I have been UL on many of a BP trip and have had too many questions and some ridicule and parts of this were justified. I honestly think the original post is a fair question and if needed I will dig up the original photo.
Anon:
"Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people."
http://asthecrowflies.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ballon-sleeper.jpg
On my first long hike (Springer to Dicks Creek) I carried all kinds of camp comfort stuff. My pack was at least 65 Lbs: I think I had about 13 Lbs of food & water at Springer, so that wasn't the "Problem". Turned out that when I got to camp, I was WAY too tired to actually use that "camp comfort stuff".
And: empty, the empty pack weighed 6.5 Lbs. I had a 2 ltr 4 Lb Steel cook pot that I never put more than about 750 ml - 1 L in. An extra large fuel bottle (20 oz I think) of which I only used about 5 oz. I'm not even going to mention that I hiked in steel toed work shoes,,,,, Don't ask!
Now: My pack weighs 21 Oz, my cook SET weighs less than a pound (1.25 with a full fuel bottle) I have almost no "CCS" but am way more comfy in camp cause I don't hurt so much from lugging all that "crap".
My current CCS list: a small PVC flute, I'll not list all the stuff I carried on that first trip. :p
So, I guess my answer is: an 18 Lb base weight, plus 1.5 Lbs food for a max of 6 days, & I rarely carry more than about 2.5 Ltrs water (FSO no food / water: 23 Lbs).
Wolf - 23000
09-14-2009, 11:01
this is probably the most objective answer.
however, some hike with the neccessary equipment for self sufficiency but still can't pull it off. that is another matter all on its own.
one point i would like to add out there is if you see someone with a small pack out there, don't bombard them with questions, especially with a bunch of ignorant assumptions like 'aren't you cold' 'how do you sleep' 'how do you stay dry' etc. this happened to me a lot but i saw it happen to hiker in a lot more extreme manner in damascus. he walked into the outfitter with a small pack, and immediately was answering questions from a bunch of snobs to the extent you thought he was being questioned for a local town murder.
WELL PUT!!! I hear it all the time and sometimes some hikers are dam rude. When I ran in B. Jack the last time we met on the trail, I had a hiker that wanted to cut in and asked me a bunch of silly questions. It was really anoying.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
09-14-2009, 11:08
How's this:
If your pack looks anything like mine, it's too heavy. :D
Seriously, tho, this is indeed a good idea for a new thread and if nobody gets it going tonight, I'll start it off tomorrow when I'm not working.
Hey Jack,
My gear is a lot heavier then yours - right now. The Army keeps on insisting that I need everything.
Wolf
SassyWindsor
09-14-2009, 11:10
When is it too light?
Answer: When you ask to borrow something from me.
If you are going UL then you need to suffer the consequences for what you are not prepared for. Don't bug other hikers who are prepared.
Wolf - 23000
09-14-2009, 11:12
i understand what you are saying, but when we are talking about why people travel light usually it is because they have the resources to choose their gear. while the UL concept is not gear heavy, the gear that is usually ideal is costly.
the thread started out with bafflement about a member of BPL who slept on tube shaped balloons. if i remember correctly he had an expensive sleeping bag and tarp. point is, he was hiking with what he preferred.
the OP was confused about this. If he remains confused, he'll just have to try it for himself.
Dreamsoftrails,
I think someone serious misinformed you. I travel light weight, for a fraction on what some hikers spent for their gear. My pack for example cost me $25 after trimming it down weight 6 oz. Not bad for $25.
UL gear doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. You just have to be smart about what your buying.
Wolf
garlic08
09-14-2009, 13:12
Dreamsoftrails,
I think someone serious misinformed you. I travel light weight, for a fraction on what some hikers spent for their gear. My pack for example cost me $25 after trimming it down weight 6 oz. Not bad for $25.
UL gear doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. You just have to be smart about what your buying.
Wolf
I agree that UL is less expensive, usually much less. My pack cost $80 new from the manufacturer (Gossamer Gear), my tent was $200 new, my stove when I carry one is free, etc. The one exception is the sleeping bag.
But the very common misconception is that UL is more expensive. I think that's because of things like the new NeoAir, the $160 sleeping pad. Or similarly priced carbon fiber trekking poles. I don't know a committed ULer who would pay $160 for a sleeping pad that may fail anyway, when a cheap blue foam deal, or at most a $30 Z-rest works just fine.
I met a hiker whose outfitter told her to expect to pay $100 extra for every pound lost from the pack. So to loose 10 pounds would cost an extra $1000, according to the outfitter! I hiked the AT with gear that cost less than $600 total, including the sleeping bag. Gotta laugh sometimes.
Go only as light as you are comfortable.
sheepdog
09-14-2009, 13:49
When is it too light?
Answer: When you ask to borrow something from me.
If you are going UL then you need to suffer the consequences for what you are not prepared for. Don't bug other hikers who are prepared.
zactly,,,,,
Most people seem to make the assumption that ultralight means leaving crucial things home or being uncomfortable. This is not the case. It means leaving home things that are not necessary for comfort and safety, using gear made of newer, lighter materials, and selecting items that serve multiple uses. It also means being creative about solving problems.
I used to believe it meant leaving things home. For example, I used to hike with just a mosquito net tent (made for sleeping in hotels in the tropics). Now I have a real tent that weighs the same as my old mosquito net and when it rains, I'm warm, safe AND dry.
I can't tell you how many people I have met out there slapping mosquitoes away from their necks but carrying extra pairs of pants and t-shirts. If they'd left the pants and shirts home and carried a 1oz head net they'd have been way more comfortable. Where did they get the idea they needed extra clothing anyway?
It's all about taking a critical eye to your assumptions about what you really need to be comfortable. It's ok to be wrong, too. By the end of both my halves of my PCT hike I ended up with a lot of things added back into my pack, including town clothes, soap and even paperbacks. But I never said to myself, gee I wish my tent weighed 4lbs instead of 1.
Jack Tarlin
09-14-2009, 20:02
Good post. But on the other hand, I can't tell you how many people I've encountered who ended up borrowing shirts or fleeces from other folks, and the borrowers were VERY glad that these people had brought along "extra" stuff.
I agree with your description of what "ultralight" ideally means; unfortunately, in my experience, all too often the people who believe they've embraced this philosophy have not exactly done so completely, at least not when it comes to making sure that they are adequately and properly equipped to the point where they are comfortable, safe, and self sufficient.
The question "Where did people get the idea they needed extra clothing?" can be answered very simply. Where I live in New England, you put yourself at risk much of the year by NOT carrying extra stuff, and habitually choosing not to do so is essentially playing a form of Russian Roulette. And all too often on the Trail, I've seen people who played this game lose, and they'd have lost a lot worse if there wasn't someone nearby who was in a position to help them out.......because they were prudent enough to carry extra stuff.
And oddly enough, on these cold, wet miserable nights, I'm yet to see an "ultralight" hiker turn down the offer of a shirt or jacket when they needed one. All too often, I've seen these "creative" folks solve their immediate problems by relying on other folks to save their bacon.
Something to think about when you start getting ruthless with your clothing bag. :-?
dreamsoftrails
09-14-2009, 22:43
Dreamsoftrails,
I think someone serious misinformed you. I travel light weight, for a fraction on what some hikers spent for their gear. My pack for example cost me $25 after trimming it down weight 6 oz. Not bad for $25.
UL gear doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. You just have to be smart about what your buying.
Wolf
oh, i completely agree. i was just saying that based on the average 'UL" hiker i have seen. usually they have nice stuff.
i guess the point is, either way, it is a choice. i think because of your post i now differentiate from those who hike "UL" as a true concept of minimalism and those who hike "UL" as a concept of taking advatange of modern science and buying the normal gear in UL form.
Having enough layers to handle the weather is different than carrying around multiple pairs of pants, shirts, underwear etc. so you can change your outfit each day just like at home. I don't think you should have any spare clothing except for socks and maybe something to wear while doing laundry (I had rain chaps and you can't really wear those while doing laundry). But I live in the west and hiked the PCT, so I might have to change to adapt to your climate back east.
Also, maybe the ultralighters on the PCT are different from the ones on the AT. On the PCT people seem overwhelmingly proficient and self-sufficient.
bigcranky
09-16-2009, 08:20
Having enough layers to handle the weather is different than carrying around multiple pairs of pants, shirts, underwear etc. so you can change your outfit each day just like at home.
Totally agree. You'll find this works just as well on the A.T.
I've never seen any definition of "ultralight hiking" that includes "mooch off the other hikers when you get cold." That's not UL, that's just being an unprepared moocher.
I carry lightweight or ultralight extra clothing.
I was taught extra clothing is one of the 10 Essentials.
I think it is essential for the lightweight or ultralightweight backpackers to learn what the "comfort zone" is for clothing selections.
I remember one catelogue listed the "comfort zone" and other catelogues followed that example.
The fact is, the layer system works, but, what are the layers?
A person has to learn this for themselves, by experience.
For example, I wear a half-zip moisture transfer first layer over a silk camisole top. A close collar, open armhole vest is essential gear for me. I especially liked the knit panel down the sides of the synthetic stuffing Eddie Bauer Expedition vest, no longer made. Next, ventilation is more essential than wearing pants with a belt: in real cold bibs-are-better. I need to have my body core warm (no gaps in jacket and pants. If a jacket and pants, no shorty jackets or hip huggers pants. I find I do not need as much warm clothing on my legs. My knees can get cold in horizontal rain with wind: I wear rain chaps that will pull on over my hiking boots or trail shoes. Rain chaps are ultralightweight. I always have a windstopper beanie. I use a "re-breather-type" face mask, if really cold because a lot of warmth is lost to exhalation and inhalation of cold air. I have warm gloves. I pack an extra pair of dry socks.
I don't wear all this stuff. I carry it because I especially like to do my hiking in the "shoulder seasons" and, in summer, in the high alpine country.
I am so totally into ultralightweight and lightweight backpacking. Totally.
But I am not an idiot.
Armchair hiking does not provide experience.
I say, get out there. At the beginning, try out some "backyard camping" with rented equipment and a minimum maximum temperature device outside or in your tent. Do all this not far from warmth and shelter.
Wise Old Owl
10-04-2009, 00:34
Great post Connie & hope to read more of your insights!
I carry lightweight or ultralight extra clothing.
I was taught extra clothing is one of the 10 Essentials.
I think it is essential for the lightweight or ultralightweight backpackers to learn what the "comfort zone" is for clothing selections.
I remember one catelogue listed the "comfort zone" and other catelogues followed that example.
The fact is, the layer system works, but, what are the layers?
A person has to learn this for themselves, by experience.
For example, I wear a half-zip moisture transfer first layer over a silk camisole top. A close collar, open armhole vest is essential gear for me. I especially liked the knit panel down the sides of the synthetic stuffing Eddie Bauer Expedition vest, no longer made. Next, ventilation is more essential than wearing pants with a belt: in real cold bibs-are-better. I need to have my body core warm (no gaps in jacket and pants. If a jacket and pants, no shorty jackets or hip huggers pants. I find I do not need as much warm clothing on my legs. My knees can get cold in horizontal rain with wind: I wear rain chaps that will pull on over my hiking boots or trail shoes. Rain chaps are ultralightweight. I always have a windstopper beanie. I use a "re-breather-type" face mask, if really cold because a lot of warmth is lost to exhalation and inhalation of cold air. I have warm gloves. I pack an extra pair of dry socks.
I don't wear all this stuff. I carry it because I especially like to do my hiking in the "shoulder seasons" and, in summer, in the high alpine country.
I am so totally into ultralightweight and lightweight backpacking. Totally.
But I am not an idiot.
Armchair hiking does not provide experience.
I say, get out there. At the beginning, try out some "backyard camping" with rented equipment and a minimum maximum temperature device outside or in your tent. Do all this not far from warmth and shelter.
Car camping can provide a lot of experience in the beginning .... camp close enough to your car that you can bail in pitch black if you need to. Then you can try out different techniques and equipment.
I always plan for the record low temps in any area I'm hiking in. That gives you an acceptable margin of safety.
For example ... Bandelier National Monument in New Mexico in March. Normal temps are in the 60 during the days, 40's at night. It got down to 8 degrees when I was there a few years ago. Lows less 20 degrees would have gotten me in a lot of trouble. 8 was close to the record low temps .... and I was prepared. It took all the techniques I had learned about staying warm over years of hiking, but I was prepared. My pack base weight was still right around 10 lbs.
I'm an ultralight hiker but I too am not stupid.
A stupid hiker is a SAR statistic, ir-regardless what their base weight is.
Connie, do you carry two pairs of pants, two silk camisoles, two vests?
By extra clothing I mean an extra set, duplicates. I carry layers, but I don't carry extra pants or shirts or even extra underwear.
I hiked last fall with a lady who had a different complete outfit for every day. She never wore any of it. It was excess useless weight and completely unnecessary for safety or comfort. All she really needed was one outfit plus her insulating layers. We were out there for only 3 days and 2 nights. She had a pile of shirts and pants bigger than a load of laundry.
Connie, do you carry two pairs of pants, two silk camisoles, two vests?
By extra clothing I mean an extra set, duplicates. I carry layers, but I don't carry extra pants or shirts or even extra underwear.
I hiked last fall with a lady who had a different complete outfit for every day. She never wore any of it. It was excess useless weight and completely unnecessary for safety or comfort. All she really needed was one outfit plus her insulating layers. We were out there for only 3 days and 2 nights. She had a pile of shirts and pants bigger than a load of laundry.
Or the guys I hiked with for 4 days that each carried three extra pairs of jeans.
Wise Old Owl
10-05-2009, 00:32
When is it too light?
Answer: When you ask to borrow something from me.
If you are going UL then you need to suffer the consequences for what you are not prepared for. Don't bug other hikers who are prepared.
Wow I like the intuitive answer!
bigcranky
10-05-2009, 07:59
Or the guys I hiked with for 4 days that each carried three extra pairs of jeans.
You're describing me on my first weekend backpacking trip.
When is it too light?
Answer: When you ask to borrow something from me.
If you are going UL then you need to suffer the consequences for what you are not prepared for. Don't bug other hikers who are prepared.
GREAT answer!
Personally, when I'm:
1) Too cold
2) Too hungry
3) Too wet
I know I went too light.:o
Thankfully, that is very rare these days. I carry a pack that many folks think is way too light, but I don't carry any extra stuff, and what I carry tends to be of the light/ultralight variety.
Bottom line, in my case, my empty pack weighs 14 oz. and it was big enough (and carried well enough) to get me through the "Hundred Mile Wilderness" (really, no big deal) last September, and I carried about 18 lbs. of food! It's a Golite Dawn, and if Golite had an OUNCE of sense they'd reissue it (maybe in a slightly heavier fabric - Spectra Gridstop, say). The 1.7 silnylon is strong enough everywhere except at the top closure (which should be - and should HAVE been a roll top). Other than that it's a perfect pack for everything short of winter mountaineering (my humble opinion :D).
bigcranky
10-05-2009, 10:04
It's a Golite Dawn, and if Golite had an OUNCE of sense they'd reissue it (maybe in a slightly heavier fabric - Spectra Gridstop, say). The 1.7 silnylon is strong enough everywhere except at the top closure (which should be - and should HAVE been a roll top).
Sounds like something you could make, if you can sew. That way you get exactly what you want (roll top closure, spectra fabric, perfect fit, etc.) If you need a pattern, you could take apart your Dawn and use that.
Sounds like something you could make, if you can sew. That way you get exactly what you want (roll top closure, spectra fabric, perfect fit, etc.) If you need a pattern, you could take apart your Dawn and use that.
I have too little time and no talent behind a sewing machine, though I may try my hand at sewing a simple flap to go over the drawstring top closure. Heck, I might even sew a velcro fastener at the top into which I could roll an entire pack cover.
Thanks for the inspiration.:)
The biggest issue you have in making a pack is making pack straps.
Making a big fabric tub is really not hard.
One thing you can always do is to take an old jansport bookbag type backpack and use the suspension and back from that.
Carefully cut around the back leaving a couple of inches of material and sew some silnylon on it. Tub the bottom and put a drawstring at the top.
You have a pack.
If you have kids, or know someone who has teenage kids, you'll find they toss these packs out about twice a year.
skinewmexico
10-05-2009, 11:41
I thought all the cottage manufacturers had a pack that was the same as the Golite Dawn.
Snowleopard
10-05-2009, 11:50
The biggest issue you have in making a pack is making pack straps.
Making a big fabric tub is really not hard.
One thing you can always do is to take an old jansport bookbag type backpack and use the suspension and back from that.
Carefully cut around the back leaving a couple of inches of material and sew some silnylon on it. Tub the bottom and put a drawstring at the top.
You have a pack.
If you have kids, or know someone who has teenage kids, you'll find they toss these packs out about twice a year.
This is a good idea to start out. Or, http://thru-hiker.com/materials/hardware.php has premade straps, or use webbing with no padding.
You're describing me on my first weekend backpacking trip.
But one of those pairs of jeans were cutoffs. Right?:)
But one of those pairs of jeans were cutoffs. Right?:)
Yep ... sounds like what we were taught in Scouts back in the 70's. Cotton, cotton, cotton, cotton.
Heavy tent, Heavy bag, Heavy pack ... cast iron for cooking, cut a tree for a flagpole when you got to camp with the axe.
Three pairs of pants, three shirts, heavy coat, six pairs of socks, extra undies, canned food and a cooler that we had to haul in.
I had a Metolius Rope Ranger. I loved the straps.
I put the straps on my GoLite Breeze.
Metolius said they would sell the straps, separately.
link: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/rope_ranger.html (http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/ropemaster.html)
Tinker, If you get GoLite to make the Dawn pack you described, I want one!