Teen fined $25,000 for rescue

[Homer&Marje]

Post 500 is mine. I call it.:D

[Homer&Marje]

Beaten by a guy who's name no one can pronounce.

[rickb]

With most fines, you have the option of stating your case in court. If you lose, then you pay up.

But do you see how clever NH is?

Those with the temerity not to bow before the decision of an unelected department head and pay the tribute do so only at still further financial exposure.


If any person shall fail or refuse to pay the costs by the required date, the department may pursue payment by legal action, or by settlement or compromise, and the responsible person shall be liable for interest from the date that the bill is due and for legal fees and costs incurred by the department in obtaining and enforcing judgment under this paragraph.

Scary that this is happening in NH. Probably heads full of mush paternalistic Massachusetts transplants had a role in all this. Sad, really.

[Panzer1]

(3) The volunteer search and rescue organization may not
collect more than five hundred dollars from an
individual under this section and may not collect more
than the actual cost of the search and rescue
activities from all of the individuals for whose
benefit the activities are conducted.

OK, so if $500 is the max they can charge the kid then why are they asking for $25,000. What's going on here?

Panzer

[Lyle]

OK, so if $500 is the max they can charge the kid then why are they asking for $25,000. What's going on here?

Panzer

The quote you were referencing is from the Washington State law.

[ed bell]

...............

[valleyfire]

I cant believe this thread is going on, this is crazy!!

[valleyfire]

i meant still going on

[valleyfire]

its been over a month so what was the final fine?

[valleyfire]

what a differance 500 - 25,000

[saimyoji]

i meant still going on

thats nothing....start a new thread asking if its safe to ford the kennebec. :eek:

[Alligator]

I cant believe this thread is going on, this is crazy!!


i meant still going on


its been over a month so what was the final fine?I don't know but after 500 posts I think they at least agreed to call it a bill not a fine:o.

[Panzer1]

The quote you were referencing is from the Washington State law.

oops!!

Panzer
(not paying attention)

[mudhead]

I don't know but after 500 posts I think they at least agreed to call it a bill not a fine:o.

You are now responsible for my mind being stuck on "conjunction junction what's your function."

Hope it is a short trip.

[superman]

I'd like to know what Homer found out about how the bill for the rescue was calculated.:-?

[Homer&Marje]

Seems to be mostly based on wages of Conservation officers working for the New Hampshire Fish and Game.

Included was their overtime hours at time and a half, all of the mileage driven which was charged for in gas used ($30 for every 100 miles consistently)

Also the Main Helicopter was charged for and the use of one ATV's gas mileage of $2.40

Yet the Snow cat, the one piece of the SAR that actually helped the kid was not charged for...still baffling to me.

I don't know what other calculations your looking for, could you be more specific? What they sent me was the simple math version broken out on an excel spread sheet.

[superman]

Homer,
Are you satisfied with the accounting that NH provided to you? Is the billing issues of how and why resolved? Did NH avoid your questions? Since you went on and on about how the bill was calculated is the issue answered? Do you think the bill should be higher because not all the resources that were used in the rescue were billed?:rolleyes:

[Homer&Marje]

I'm satisfied to know that if and when anyone wants public records or financial information about an incident that it's easily acquired through the right process.

I'm not satisfied that they are charging Scott Mason $25k and the piece of the rescue that actually serviced him, wasn't included in the bill.

Possibly in the future modeling the structure of the fine around what the State of Washington is doing would be a reasonable resolve to this issue.

I cannot judge the accounting, I'm not an accountant. I don't live in NH so I cannot help change the law. All I can do is point out the injustice of a 17 year old kid being sent a bill for $25k for BS

$9k + in regular wages,$11k + in Over Time wages, a lot of gas and a helicopter. All of which did not help him.

[Gray Blazer]

I would like to thank Homer for putting so much time into his research. It's amazing how some people like to argue so much and accuse him of BS'ing and how come he doesn't know all the states' different laws and wanting him to tell the truth. What is truth? There is your truth, then there is my truth.

Thanks again Homer for keeping a cool head and reporting the facts as you found them and researched them. I for one wouldn't have bothered unless it was happening to me (knock on formica).

[freefall]

SAR should not charge unless they can prove gross negligence or non-necessity.

Here's an article from COSAR from a couple of years ago that states my position very well.

http://www.coloradosarboard.org/csrb-documents/Billing%20for%20SAR%20Endangers%20Public.pdf

I purchase a COSAR card every time mine expires. The dollar added to hunting and fishing license is a great idea as they are out there quite often.

[Homer&Marje]

I would like to thank Homer for putting so much time into his research. It's amazing how some people like to argue so much and accuse him of BS'ing and how come he doesn't know all the states' different laws and wanting him to tell the truth. What is truth? There is your truth, then there is my truth.

Thanks again Homer for keeping a cool head and reporting the facts as you found them and researched them. I for one wouldn't have bothered unless it was happening to me (knock on formica).

Was not much trouble at all. Between online research, phone calls and filling out some forms...and the cost of 2 stamps:eek:.....I spent about 1 hour on the whole thing.

Considering I'm stuck in a cage all day at home tied to a chain and sitting next to a computer....I have not spent much time on it at all:D

[superman]

Was not much trouble at all. Between online research, phone calls and filling out some forms...and the cost of 2 stamps:eek:.....I spent about 1 hour on the whole thing.

Considering I'm stuck in a cage all day at home tied to a chain and sitting next to a computer....I have not spent much time on it at all:D

But still...you did go beyond just bitching about it. You made the effort to get the facts from the authorities. In addition you didn't lose your focus when you were getting some heat for it. I agree with GB.:-?

[saimyoji]

you three should get a room already....

[Gray Blazer]

you three should get a room already....


Nah.....we'll prolly just start our own exclusive website. :D

[Homer&Marje]

OOH!!! I know a room we can rent:D

[Gray Blazer]

Nah.....we'll prolly just start our own exclusive website. :D
Now that was funny. I don't care what anyone says.

[Homer&Marje]

It's a better idea than subjecting someone else to me. The wife deals with it well, who knows what others reactions would be.:rolleyes:

[chomp]

$9k + in regular wages,$11k + in Over Time wages, a lot of gas and a helicopter. All of which did not help him.


This is bogus logic. For example, using the same logic, say Scott was injured and did require rescue. Using your logic, he should only have to pay the wages for the officer that FOUND him. Because the other 30 people looking for him DIDN'T find him, therefore that cost is irrelevant.

But the issue is you need a wide spread to find someone, just like you need a colony of ants to find one food source.

That being said, while you claim that Scott didn't need to be found, clearly his parents disagreed. Once the need for a search was determined, all costs associated with that should be tallied, regardless of the outcome.

[Homer&Marje]

Hence part of the problem. They tallied everything up except the Snow Cat ride down the mountain, that actually, physically benefited him.

Obviously I know that a widespread search pattern cannot be accomplished without the help of many.

I'm not saying he should only pay for the officer that found him. I'm saying he should pay nothing at all for a service that should be budgeted for. IMO

The National Association of Search And Rescue agrees with that logic. At least Washington has a limit on what an agency can put on the bill. Try charging more people $500 for a rescue to make up the budget shortfall, not stick a few people with exorbitant bills that do not reflect the amount of negligence involved. Which I've stated in my opinion is a very small amount of negligence on his part.

He was prepared, and possibly was informed of the shortcut to take, that he took by AMC workers that he spoke to THAT morning.



"I had a light sprain coming up, so I decided to take an easier hike down," he said. He chose a route he had discussed with the staff at the Appalachian Mountain Club lodge where he began his hike. "They had information that it was clear at the time."
Just basing that on a quote from Scott Mason from this article.

http://cbs11tv.com/watercooler/missing.hiker.white.2.998406.html

[saimyoji]

Nah.....we'll prolly just start our own exclusive website. :D


Now that was funny. I don't care what anyone says.

actually it was sad and pathetic and only shows more of your character. whats that saying when someone screws up and doesn't really feel bad about it and then tries to redirect the blame on someone else? :-?

[superman]

Hence part of the problem. They tallied everything up except the Snow Cat ride down the mountain, that actually, physically benefited him.

Obviously I know that a widespread search pattern cannot be accomplished without the help of many.

I'm not saying he should only pay for the officer that found him. I'm saying he should pay nothing at all for a service that should be budgeted for. IMO

The National Association of Search And Rescue agrees with that logic. At least Washington has a limit on what an agency can put on the bill. Try charging more people $500 for a rescue to make up the budget shortfall, not stick a few people with exorbitant bills that do not reflect the amount of negligence involved. Which I've stated in my opinion is a very small amount of negligence on his part.

He was prepared, and possibly was informed of the shortcut to take, that he took by AMC workers that he spoke to THAT morning.



Just basing that on a quote from Scott Mason from this article.

http://cbs11tv.com/watercooler/missing.hiker.white.2.998406.html





OK, we'll be glad to increase his bill if you think that we've omitted something. You posted and posted that you thought there was something secret or improper in the NH calculation of the rescue bill. You made the enquiry and they immediately responded with a full accounting. There is no grassy knoll. You got the information you kept posting about. You got to post the results. You even got to add your personal opinion. It's done... good job. Next thread. :)

[Gray Blazer]

actually it was sad and pathetic and only shows more of your character. whats that saying when someone screws up and doesn't really feel bad about it and then tries to redirect the blame on someone else? :-?
Unfortunately you're not in control here.

[saimyoji]

Unfortunately you're not in control here.

hahaha

i'm always in control of my actions and always take responsibility for them...even when i'm an *******.

[Homer&Marje]

You sure your not going to blame your son for these posts?:rolleyes:

[saimyoji]

You sure your not going to blame your son for these posts?:rolleyes:

well, an inside joke only works if there's an outside. :D

[Homer&Marje]

No Philosophy allowed on WB. It confuses the masses:D

[Gray Blazer]

hahaha

i'm always in control of my actions and always take responsibility for them...even when i'm an *******.
Whatever you say. I don't feel bad. I'm sorry you do.

[Chaco Taco]

Let it go you two, its a website:rolleyes:

[saimyoji]

its gone, my conscience is clear.....:rolleyes:

[Gray Blazer]

actually it was sad and pathetic and only shows more of your character. whats that saying when someone screws up and doesn't really feel bad about it and then tries to redirect the blame on someone else? :-?

You're right. You obviously hold the moral high ground.

Anyways, I would risk my life to rescue you or Homer. At least I would call 911.

[rickb]

Here is a link to Fish and Game lamenting their finances in 2007. Life is tough in the public sector.

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Inside_FandG/funding_materials/NHFG_House_finance_testimony_030507.pdf

It explains a lot.

Even though search and rescue is a small part of their budget, they are scrapping for new sources of funding (even so far as exploring the possibility of selling moose permits for over $12,000 and sucking on the teet of the general fund). What better way to garner publicity for their plight than the recent headlines?

Also mentioned is that F&G gets 1/4 of their annual budget from Federal Sources. That's WAY more than they get from the NH general fund (Taxpayers).

As such, all those carping who don't live in NH can rest comfortably in the knowledge they have as much standing on the issues debated in this thread as anyone who pays taxes in NH.

[Panzer1]

no one participating is a search and rescue should be permitted to charge victims time an a half for their services.

Panzer

[jersey joe]

no one participating is a search and rescue should be permitted to charge victims time an a half for their services.

Panzer
Good point. It just seems kinda wrong.

[chomp]

no one participating is a search and rescue should be permitted to charge victims time an a half for their services.

Panzer

Well, you made up for your previous intelligent statement with this one, Panzer. Really? You want people to work 10, 20, 30 hours of overtime and not get paid time and a half? As a general rule I work extra hours at my job for free, but if I am REQUIRED to work in a manner that disrupts my life, then I expect (and deserve) to be compensated at an appropriate level. So do these people. For the officers that were required to work on the rescue, this is their JOB not their LIFE.

[ed bell]

How about the complaint that some of the Conservation Officers should have carpooled to avoid the mileage total in the expense report:


That's what the official report said. I think some of these people should have car pooled. A total of 5,611 miles were driven...that's....stupid.

"These people" didn't create or enforce the law in question, but simply coordinated and responded to the SAR mission as I'm sure they always do and turned in their expense reports as they are most likely required to do. Do you really believe that the mileage SAR personnel drove mobilizing from all over NH to search for a solo hiker three days overdue from a dayhike is "stupid"? I don't get it.

[woodsy]

Its a sorry day when selfless S & R people are being ridiculed for saving peoples asses.
Some of you need to volunteer on a few of these missions so you can help carry a litter a few mountain miles with a 200 lb person on it. Then you will know .
Till then , keep on whining.

[rickb]

Do you really believe that the mileage SAR personnel drove mobilizing from all over NH to search for a solo hiker three days overdue from a dayhike is "stupid"? I don't get it.

I agree with Chomp and Ed that professional law enforcement and sate workers should be compensated according to their contracts.

In fact, the only thing I would quibble with is why their mileage reimbursement rates are so low. I would think they should be getting the federal standard of $0.55 per mile-- or very close to it.

I do think it noteworthy that in the past the fines resulting from these search and rescue operations were passed on to the Volunteer Organizations that bear so much of the burden for rescues in NH-- and technical rescues in particular. Now, that has all changed.

But professional law enforcement officers and state workers deserve to be compensated for their time. One would hope that the opportunity for overtime in this tough economy would in no way impact their decisions to call in volunteers to augment their ranks, however. I don't think there is ANY evidence of that, and I don't see that as a problem in any way moving forward. F&G is competent with these kinds of things, so long as technical/mountaineering rescue skills are not required. I can't think of a better lead organization.

As an aside, when the AMC crews (a paid position) go out on a rescue, it is strictly on a volunteer basis. That's different of course, but not a bad thing to reflect upon the next time a round of club bashing begins.

[Homer&Marje]

Its a sorry day when selfless S & R people are being ridiculed for saving peoples asses.
Some of you need to volunteer on a few of these missions so you can help carry a litter a few mountain miles with a 200 lb person on it. Then you will know .
Till then , keep on whining.

I'm basing this on THIS case only. They sent a bill for $25k for a kid that walked out on his own power to the top of Mt. Washington.

I'm sorry when did the litter crew carry him? He got a ride down the Auto Road from the Snow Cat...which was the only piece of equipment in the entire rescue that actually physically benefited him. And without it, he could have walked his own ass down the mountain.

I would be glad to help out on a search and rescue. I would also like the knowledge that the person I helped was not put into financial hardship by my actions.

[woodsy]

I'm sorry when did the litter crew carry him? He got a ride down the Auto Road from the Snow Cat...which was the only piece of equipment in the entire rescue that actually physically benefited him. And without it, he could have walked his own ass down the mountain.


Heres your sign !

[Homer&Marje]

Wow....that was funny....but once again provided nothing. So once again I'll repeat, where was the litter crew that carried him down the mountain?

[Gray Blazer]

I would be glad to help out on a search and rescue. I would also like the knowledge that the person I helped was not put into financial hardship by my actions.

Amen, Brother Ben!

[woodsy]

Wow....that was funny....but once again provided nothing. So once again I'll repeat, where was the litter crew?

Wanderering around the mountains for days looking for him

[The Old Fhart]

Homer&Marje-"I'm sorry when did the litter crew carry him? He got a ride down the Auto Road from the Snow Cat...which was the only piece of equipment in the entire rescue that actually physically benefited him. And without it, he could have walked his own ass down the mountain."To claim that nothing that the SAR folks did in 3 days was of any benefit to Scott because there wasn't "physical" contact and therefore those legitimate costs are not billable is ludicrous. To claim that 'they' could only possibly charge for the snow cat ride goes beyond that.

You have become an obsessive troll who adds nothing to the serious discussion of the rescue and if you continually want to harp on these inane points that aren't closely related to the facts you should do it on your own web site.

[Homer&Marje]

And when did I ridicule those people for what they did? I'm ridiculing the state of New Hampshire for charging for the services.

People that think I'm knocking the NH F&G for the excellent job they do and all of the volunteers involved can get their head out of their ass.

New Hampshire probably has one of the finest SAR programs that anyone could ask for while hiking...I just disagree with charging the full amount of those missions to one individual, especially when IMO that person should never have been considered negligent.

[Homer&Marje]

To claim that nothing that the SAR folks did in 3 days was of any benefit to Scott because there wasn't "physical" contact and therefore those legitimate costs are not billable is ludicrous. To claim that 'they' could only possibly charge for the snow cat ride goes beyond that.

You have become an obsessive troll who adds nothing to the serious discussion of the rescue and if you continually want to harp on these inane points that aren't closely related to the facts you should do it on your own web site.


But not on YOUR site?

[The Old Fhart]

Homer&Marje-"But not on YOUR site?"If I were continually creating "facts" or lies like you have constantly done, that should also be done on your conspiracy web site.:rolleyes:

[kanga]

SAR is a voluntary thing. no one is forced to sign up to do that job. going out after hours is part of SAR. the people that do SAR do it because they love it and feel strongly about helping people. that is amazing and incredible but there should be no time and a half.

[mudhead]

IMO that person should never have been considered negligent.

:eek:

C'mon.

[neighbor dave]

SAR is a voluntary thing. no one is forced to sign up to do that job. going out after hours is part of SAR. the people that do SAR do it because they love it and feel strongly about helping people. that is amazing and incredible but there should be no time and a half.

i agree wif kanga:sun

[woodsy]

I'd charge doubletime for some of the idiots needing rescue these days.
Tripletime if it were Homer

[Homer&Marje]

If I were continually creating "facts" or lies like you have constantly done, that should also be done on your conspiracy web site.:rolleyes:


What facts did I create? It's not a conspiracy theory....the state of NH is charging people the cost of their SAR mission.

It's state law, you've posted that law at least 13 times for us to read so I think I get the gist of it.

Your sitting their spinning your wheels on the same "blah blah blah they considered him negligent blah blah it's their decision not yours blah blah"

No **** sherlock. I contacted the Attorney General, and the NH F&G LEO Division and got the story from them...thanks. I requested, and posted the financial information so everyone could decide for themselves what they thought.

Where is the overwhelming support going for this? Oh yea that's right...don't charge a 17 year old kid for wages, overtime, and gas for an underfunded state run organization with a budget shortfall.

[Lyle]

I work EMS. Often calls come in at times that I am in what is considered "overtime hours". That is the nature of the beast. I'm pretty certain we would hear a huge outcry, and the insurance companies would laugh us out of court if we attempted to charge an overtime differential for the service we provide. Me being on overtime is a result of a cost saving measure by my service. They do not hire enough employees to cover 24/7 with regular hours. Same situation here in NH.

The overtime hours should not be billed to the person receiving the service because the State chooses to understaff their weekends. They should make supervisory personnel available to oversee the volunteers 24/7. If they choose to do this with overtime, then that is their choice, and the recipient of the service should not be liable.

[neighbor dave]

p.s. 25 g's is ridiculous.

the u.s. of a. is slowly turning into a police state where one is not supposed to question authority, just go along and trust that they're doing the right thing.
that is a sorry state of mind to be in i.m.h.o.

[kanga]

p.s. 25 g's is ridiculous.

the u.s. of a. is slowly turning into a police state where one is not supposed to question authority, just go along and trust that they're doing the right thing.
that is a sorry state of mind to be in i.m.h.o.


i agree with neighbor dave :sun

[neighbor dave]

I'd charge doubletime for some of the idiots needing rescue these days.
Tripletime if it were Homer
and what about the idiots in authoritative positions?? what would you charge them when they f- up?
the problem is is that they're in cahoots and get away with alot more than the average joe out for an innocent walk in the woods.
maybe we should have a trailhead stoning of the chap compliments of the whiteblaze commies:D

[Homer&Marje]

Wow...been hiking for 2/3 of my short life and was never close to needing a rescue.

Good to be associated with the "idiots" though...thanks woodsy.

Sorry I did a little research and pointed out the faults of this bill. I think most will agree....

Ooh I'd charge triple time for rescuing homer....how ****ing stupid of a comment can you get.

[jersey joe]

The overtime hours should not be billed to the person receiving the service because the State chooses to understaff their weekends. They should make supervisory personnel available to oversee the volunteers 24/7. If they choose to do this with overtime, then that is their choice, and the recipient of the service should not be liable.
Lyle, this is a pretty good point. If they choose to understaff to save money, passing on the OT is questionable. If this type of charging becomes more common, I could see people buying hiking insurance, just in case they need an S&R.

[woodsy]

Homer&Marje;884894

Good to be associated with the "idiots" though...thanks woodsy.

Now calm yeself down, you were not in the same sentence with the idiot word.




Ooh I'd charge triple time for rescuing homer....how ****ing stupid of a comment can you get.


Ahahaha,

c'mon Homer, wheres you sense of humor this morning? :D

[neighbor dave]

the u.s. of a. is slowly turning into a police state where one is not supposed to question authority, just go along and trust that they're doing the right thing.
that is a sorry state of mind to be in i.m.h.o.

corruption will flourish and grow like weeds on a sunny spring day with thinking like that.:-?

[Dances with Mice]

So this time the kid's ok and expenses are being haggled.

But what if SAR completed a recovery instead of a rescue? Should the State try to recover expenses from the deceased's estate?

[Two Speed]

No, just beat him like a dead horse. Prolly get a coupla volunteers for that duty from a website I could mention.

[chomp]

SAR is a voluntary thing. no one is forced to sign up to do that job. going out after hours is part of SAR. the people that do SAR do it because they love it and feel strongly about helping people. that is amazing and incredible but there should be no time and a half.

SAR is NOT a voluntary thing is that is your JOB!!!!

We are not talking about the many generous people that volunteer to join the search net. We are talking about the highly trained professionals that are in CHARGE of the rescue operations and RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all of the untrained volunteers! They are obligated to perform SAR operations, therefore they should be paid overtime.. just like any other employee. Cops get overtime, firemen get overtime... why not these officers?

[chomp]

They do not hire enough employees to cover 24/7 with regular hours. Same situation here in NH.

The overtime hours should not be billed to the person receiving the service because the State chooses to understaff their weekends. They should make supervisory personnel available to oversee the volunteers 24/7. If they choose to do this with overtime, then that is their choice, and the recipient of the service should not be liable.

Um, where are you getting your facts for this? First of all, MOST of the SAR activities are not bills out to the victims. Therefore, it would be in the State's best interest not to under staff SAR operations. Secondly, however the State chooses to staff its SAR operations is the State's business. Bottom line, Scott's SAR activities cost was the cost. If you don't like how the State is run, you are welcome to hike in other states.

[chomp]

Wow...been hiking for 2/3 of my short life and was never close to needing a rescue.


This is your best point yet, Homer. Exactly... I think most responsible hikers would be able to make the same statement! Its mostly when you are not responsible or negligent that you get yourself into a rescue situation. Like Scott.

[saimyoji]

and chomp's point stems from the fact that homer has chosen to only provide a part of the information he received. he has not provided the key details on the responding SAR personell because it damages his arguments. "Volunteers" 1-2?" are not all volunteers. He has been twisting the facts and lying for pages on end. I agree with the old fhart. :sun

[chomp]

p.s. 25 g's is ridiculous.

the u.s. of a. is slowly turning into a police state where one is not supposed to question authority, just go along and trust that they're doing the right thing.
that is a sorry state of mind to be in i.m.h.o.

Come on, Dave. Charging for SAR has nothing to do with being a police state! And Scott still has the opportunity to challenge the bill in court, so he'll be able to argue his side of the story. You can disagree with the 25K bill, but police state? Apples and oranges.

[Rockhound]

Some SAR missions cost more than others. Why pick an arbitrary number to charge the rescuee? It should be figured on an individual basis. Either that or base the charge on how much society would wish to have certain people rescued. For instance, if the Sweedish bikini team needed rescuing it would be free of charge and if Homer needed rescuing it would be $100,000.

[saimyoji]

Some SAR missions cost more than others. Why pick an arbitrary number to charge the rescuee? It should be figured on an individual basis. Either that or base the charge on how much society would wish to have certain people rescued. For instance, if the Sweedish bikini team needed rescuing it would be free of charge and if Homer needed rescuing it would be $100,000.

priceless :D

[chomp]

Here is a demonstration of Homer's arguing tactics:
-------------------------------------------------

In the following statement, I am using the word "Jerk" instead of "Good Guy"

"Homer is a real Jerk."
----------------------

Now pretend there are a bunch of angry responses about how I called Homer a jerk. Then I respond:

"I NEVER called Homer a JERK??? If you read my post, I clearly stated that I was using the word Jerk instead of Good Guy. Therefore I said that Homer was a Good Guy!"

[Lone Wolf]

the teen didn't ask to be rescued. he wasn't negligent

[neighbor dave]

Come on, Dave. Charging for SAR has nothing to do with being a police state! And Scott still has the opportunity to challenge the bill in court, so he'll be able to argue his side of the story. You can disagree with the 25K bill, but police state? Apples and oranges.

apples and oranges have something in common, they're fruit.
S.A.R. is a gov. agency no?
the system needs an adjustment, 25 g's is way to much coin.
great way to keep people down and under the thumbs of authority.
attaching a price to something by a gov. agency is very intinidating. most people will automatically think, "i can't win" and pay.
it can be liked to fishing, you throw ina line with some bait on it and see who bites, if you get 75% of the people to bite without an arguement you're ahead of the game.
what will happen if the kid wins the case? how much of the states money will be spent to find out they lost?
chomp, i don't want to argue with you, seems everyone here has their own views, all are valid, that's what makes the world go 'round.

[Lyle]

SAR is NOT a voluntary thing is that is your JOB!!!!

We are not talking about the many generous people that volunteer to join the search net. We are talking about the highly trained professionals that are in CHARGE of the rescue operations and RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all of the untrained volunteers! They are obligated to perform SAR operations, therefore they should be paid overtime.. just like any other employee. Cops get overtime, firemen get overtime... why not these officers?

OK, as a disclaimer, what I am about to say is highly speculative on my part and may or may not be fact. They are questions, however, that I would want my attorney to look into if I were being charged $25,000, most of it attributable to highly paid "professional" rescuers receiving overtime.

My initial reaction is that all 20+ of these $30/hour employees were not highly trained rescue personnel. They were most likely habitat specialists, biologists, fisheries experts, and bureaucrats. Possibly "jumping on the bandwagon" for the excitement, adventure, and, yes, the overtime. Were all these people REALLY necessary to supervise the "crack" SAR volunteers that NH is reported to have? Were all these folks actually trained any better than the volunteers? Were all of these folks actually called in or did they show up, and the State is now billing for their time? Were these wages ACTUALLY paid by the State?

As I said, I'm speculating on possibilities. I'm not trying to demean the employees, but I do know how MANY public safety organizations work, and that most folks respond not for the money or because it's their "job" necessarily, but because they want to be part of the action. Was this high expenditure actually needed to effect the same result?

These are questions that even the NH die-hard supporters should be asking in light of some of the other threads about how strapped for cash NH F&G is.

Leaving government beauracricies to run, blindly supporthing their decisions because they are the experts is never a good thing.

[Lyle]

. If you don't like how the State is run, you are welcome to hike in other states.

I've already stated that I will be avoiding NH.

But this is precedent setting. NH admits that it is the first time anywhere near this amount has been charged. Besides, as has already been pointed out F&G receives a substantial amount of funding from all of our taxes, so we do have a stake.

[neighbor dave]

the "either you're with us, or against us", or "america, love it or leave it"

arguement, is not a healthy way to view things i.m.h.o.

question authority, it's your right as a citizen of the U.S. of A.

[Homer&Marje]

I never tried to twist the facts....I used the word volunteer so that my information would fit nicely in the post:D

Conservation Officer made all of them go to two lines and it was more confusing to read.

Obviously changing the word confused too many people, that didn't realize that if someone is an hourly paid employee that they are not volunteering.

I've already apologized to those that couldn't grasp the word change.

[Homer&Marje]

And I gave every bit of information I received. If you want you can give me a fax number and I will send it to anyone that wants it. I'd have to walk across town to a fax machine. But if you want it that badly you can also contact the NH F&G Law Enforcement Division, give them your address and ask for a form to fill out to receive the information.

You think I'm wrong YOU do the research and come up with your own set of numbers. I listed what they gave me.

[Alligator]

Scan it in Homer. You've got time available.

[Homer&Marje]

I would have but my scanner is broken. I'll work on it.

[chomp]

chomp, i don't want to argue with you, seems everyone here has their own views, all are valid, that's what makes the world go 'round.

Love you too, man... :D

[chomp]

the "either you're with us, or against us", or "america, love it or leave it"

arguement, is not a healthy way to view things i.m.h.o.

question authority, it's your right as a citizen of the U.S. of A.

FYI - I totally agree with this. Just in this case, I happy to agree with the authority. :)

[kanga]

SAR is NOT a voluntary thing is that is your JOB!!!!

We are not talking about the many generous people that volunteer to join the search net. We are talking about the highly trained professionals that are in CHARGE of the rescue operations and RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all of the untrained volunteers! They are obligated to perform SAR operations, therefore they should be paid overtime.. just like any other employee. Cops get overtime, firemen get overtime... why not these officers?
bull****! SAR members have other jobs and do this above and beyond their normal duties with the state because they WANT TO. go cry somewhere else.

[neighbor dave]

FYI - I totally agree with this. Just in this case, I happy to agree with the authority. :)

mmmm........ i wonder why??:sun

[chomp]

bull****! SAR members have other jobs and do this above and beyond their normal duties with the state because they WANT TO. go cry somewhere else.

And you know this... how? What specific information do you have to support this? Or would you like to use more obscenities to make your case?

[chomp]

mmmm........ i wonder why??:sun
Shhhh... don't tell. :)

[kanga]

And you know this... how? What specific information do you have to support this? Or would you like to use more obscenities to make your case?
i dated a SAR guy for years. i heard about it daily.

[saimyoji]

i dated a SAR guy for years. i heard about it daily.

there are easier ways to get a guys attention than to fake needing rescue everyday....:rolleyes:

[Homer&Marje]

And cheaper if you live in New Hampshire:D

[woodsy]

And I gave every bit of information I received. If you want you can give me a fax number and I will send it to anyone that wants it. I'd have to walk across town to a fax machine. But if you want it that badly you can also contact the NH F&G Law Enforcement Division, give them your address and ask for a form to fill out to receive the information.

You think I'm wrong YOU do the research and come up with your own set of numbers. I listed what they gave me.

Thats funny, just got off the phone with NH F&G, they said they never heard of Homer from WB. :confused:

[Homer&Marje]

Because when speaking in the real world I use my real name.

[Homer&Marje]

And I told them that the information was going to be included as part of an online discussion.

[Homer&Marje]

I'm still working on finding a scanner to get the entire report on here...this should suffice that I didn't make any numbers up. I took the liberty of not including my name and address for you all:D Lotta stalkers out there you know.

[superman]

And I told them that the information was going to be included as part of an online discussion.

Have a friend with a working scanner scan it and send it to you so that we can see it.:-?

[Homer&Marje]

What makes you think I have friends? In all seriousness I have no one near me with a scanner and am not willing to put that much effort into it. I posted the exact information I got leaving out blank columns and the benefits % column which was tallied up but not included in the bill, therefore non-relevant.

I will try and walk to the library next door and see if they have a scanner, but I don't think they do.

[saimyoji]

then just take a picture of it and upload it. we could read the cover letter just fine. :rolleyes:

[TD55]

[quote=Homer&Marje;885069]What makes you think I have friends? quote]
Because you claim to be a great cook that cooks alot and it sounds like you often have beer and other beverages at your house. That should at least get you folks who say they are your friend.

[Homer&Marje]

Took a walk across town and got it taken care of. Should I send Scott Mason a bill for $1? Or should I consider it good will, even though I'm not "REALLY" helping him...I'm out walking around trying:D

http://sz0062.wc.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/20090827131705603.pdf?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=11040&part=2 (http://sz0062.wc.mail.comcast.net/service/home/%7E/20090827131705603.pdf?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=11040&part=2)

[superman]

What makes you think I have friends? In all seriousness I have no one near me with a scanner and am not willing to put that much effort into it. I posted the exact information I got leaving out blank columns and the benefits % column which was tallied up but not included in the bill, therefore non-relevant.

I will try and walk to the library next door and see if they have a scanner, but I don't think they do.

Except for the few people that posted who actually know what they are talking about, you are carrying the entire burden of fact gathering on this important issue.

[Homer&Marje]

Get it right....I get the facts and then distort them to my own advantage. Apparently.

It's not an important issue to everyone, but I have spent the last 15 years hiking in New Hampshire on the majority of my hikes.

That will have to change because I can't afford to be considered negligent if per chance I need a Search and Rescue. And furthermore I'd still like to research an exact gear list and list of stipulations that every hiker MUST follow in New Hampshire in order to NOT be considered negligent.

Time to make some phone calls. Because no one else bitching about how ill prepared the kid was has been able to provide **** other than a piss and moan contest over trying to cover a budget shortfall.

But thanks for copy/pasting the law many times so everyone can see the fault in it.

The Fish and Game Department just said they would get back to me with the info.

[Alligator]

...
That will have to change because I can't afford to be considered negligent if per chance I need a Search and Rescue. And furthermore I'd still like to research an exact gear list and list of stipulations that every hiker MUST follow in New Hampshire in order to NOT be considered negligent.

Time to make some phone calls. Because no one else bitching about how ill prepared the kid was has been able to provide **** other than a piss and moan contest over trying to cover a budget shortfall.
...I put a thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53450) up yesterday linking to a website where folks might find information on safer hiking in NH. Maybe leave the pissing and moaning behind and have an objective discussion about it.

[mudhead]

It is easy. Stay in MA. Plenty of good hiking there.

[sheepdog]

i Put A thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53450) Up Yesterday Linking To A Website Where Folks Might Find Information On Safer Hiking In Nh. Maybe Leave The Pissing And Moaning Behind And Have An Objective Discussion About It.
Never!!!!!!

[kanga]

Never!!!!!!
i agree! down with unnerpants!!

[sheepdog]

Inconceivable

[Homer&Marje]

I put a thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53450) up yesterday linking to a website where folks might find information on safer hiking in NH. Maybe leave the pissing and moaning behind and have an objective discussion about it.


I had not seen the thread but someone from the F&G told me about it and I have been looking at it. Still waiting on a phone call from the guy in charge....going to talk specifics.

[Alligator]

I had not seen the thread but someone from the F&G told me about it and I have been looking at it. Still waiting on a phone call from the guy in charge....going to talk specifics.You should interview him and podcast it.

[Homer&Marje]

I'm a hiker. Not a reporter:rolleyes:

[neighbor dave]

http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Outdoor_Recreation/hiking_safety.htm

waaaay more than most people i know who hike in the whites very frequently, and who have been hiking there for more than 30 years. before the "saftey" craze swarmed over the U.S. of A.
i will also venture a guess that it's waaaayy more than the proponents of the action discussed here in this thread carry routinely whilst hiking in the whites, therefore i hearby deem the bill/fine to be unreasonable and unruley and nothing more than "the man" flexing unwarranted authority on the hiking population, slowing getting the people used to the "herding" mentality that is passively/agressively being thrust upon us.

[superman]

I hiked Jefferson and Madison recently and encountered a ranger. I asked him if I'd be charged $25,000 if I needed to be rescued. He asked if my name is Homer and when I told him "no" he said to not worry about it.:D

[Alligator]

I'm a hiker. Not a reporter:rolleyes:Hikers do podcasts all the time, there's some on the homepage. You'll do fine, and everyone can rest easier with the translation:D.

[neighbor dave]

p.s.
note to all the A.T. thru-hikers, as of now you've been warned, carry 1 pair of long wool pants on your trip through nh or you'll be fined, for "reckless behaviour":rolleyes:

[Homer&Marje]

Took you all day and that's what you came up with...your better than that Superman.

[Homer&Marje]

Hikers do podcasts all the time, there's some on the homepage. You'll do fine, and everyone can rest easier with the translation:D.


I'm not very technically savvy. Have spent too much time in the woods. I've almost got my camera and computer completely figured out. My scanner,printer,fax,electric pissing people off machine...no.

[Alligator]

I'm going to close this one for a bit since it's gotten a bit acrimonious and direct everyone to this thread. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53450) It suggests some ways to hike safe in NH. If there are further updates we can maybe reopen it at a later time.