View Full Version : Maryland Park Service New Alcohol Policy
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2009, 12:22
In case you missed it, new changes. For all parks in Maryland
http://www.dnr.maryland.gov/publiclands/alcoholfaq.html
$35 dollars for a permit to drink alcohol!!!!
This country is circling the drain.
http://dnr.maryland.gov/publiclands/western/southmountain.html
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2009, 12:50
Yea $35 after watching several Park Ranger going around camp last year I felt it would be a good idea to get large camo /solid plastic cups that folks would not be able to tell what we were drinking. Know I feel better for my purchase.
More good advice from WhiteBlaze!:rolleyes:
john gault
07-18-2009, 13:06
More good advice from WhiteBlaze!:rolleyes:
Is there a fine if I am cited for violating the alcohol policy?
Yes, a natural resource citation with a pre-payable fine of $55 may be issued for violation of the policy.
My advice to any one that frequents Maryland parks would be to risk the fine, you might save money over the long-run.:D
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2009, 13:33
Is there a fine if I am cited for violating the alcohol policy?
Yes, a natural resource citation with a pre-payable fine of $55 may be issued for violation of the policy.
My advice to any one that frequents Maryland parks would be to risk the fine, you might save money over the long-run.:D
Last year a few teens in tents - made a party and a drunken fuss nearby us and the ranger with the state police showed up the next morning and they still failed the blow test and took two away in cuffs at Northeast Maryland.
Ladytrekker
07-18-2009, 13:35
Wow, governments way to get more tax money. I frequent alot of state parks in Florida and they do not permit drinking, however, everyone does, so stealth drinking has become an art............
john gault
07-18-2009, 13:39
Last year a few teens in tents - made a party and a drunken fuss nearby us and the ranger with the state police showed up the next morning and they still failed the blow test and took two away in cuffs at Northeast Maryland.
During my illegal drinking teen-age years I would never have been caught drinking in a state park frequented by others, we always went far, far away from people. Stupid kids:D
All alcoholic beverages are heavier than none, more expensive than natural spring water provided free from its source on the AT and most people are too lazy to carry them any distance unless it's in their car. It's easier and less expensive to wait until you can drink alcohol legally, preferably in the privacy of your own home or with others in a location it where it's legal and supervised by someone with a long-term financial interest.
middle to middle
07-18-2009, 14:22
Avoid maryland !
Avoid Maryland!
or follow their rules if you want to be recognized as a 2000 miler. Remember, through hiking is about discipline and you shouldn't claim to be a 2000 miler if you lack self-discipline.
Mrs Baggins
07-18-2009, 15:00
We've taken our tent trailer to plenty of parks in other states that said "No Alcohol." Riiiigghhht.....they really believe that people camping out, whether in tents or RVs, and especially for more than one night, are not going to have that bottle of wine or dram or two of scotch in the evenings. Sure thing. We pour it in our coffee cups (ceramic) and sit outside sipping away.
Then hide and sneak about like minors engaged in illegal activities who become adults with bad habits, who must continue to avoid detection, and, who, through their exemplary lives, teach more minors how to avoid detection by officials they pay to detect illegal behavior.
GeneralLee10
07-18-2009, 15:54
Out of Site Out of Mind ~.~ Drink One for me!
john gault
07-18-2009, 18:00
or follow their rules if you want to be recognized as a 2000 miler. Remember, through hiking is about discipline and you shouldn't claim to be a 2000 miler if you lack self-discipline.
Give it up on the 2,000 miler crap, I'm sure most 2,000 milers are NOT 2,000 milers (No, I've never submitted an application).
Mrs Baggins
07-18-2009, 19:11
Then hide and sneak about like minors engaged in illegal activities who become adults with bad habits, who must continue to avoid detection, and, who, through their exemplary lives, teach more minors how to avoid detection by officials they pay to detect illegal behavior.
I AM an adult and I will drink alcohol when and where I please other than when I'm going to be driving a vehicle or am driving a vehicle. I do NOT have to "hide" it from under age people nor am I "teaching" them to do bad things. I DO have the LEGAL right to drink and I will. I've had it for 32 years and other peoples deliquent brats and their bad habits are not my problem. I am not their village.
johnnybgood
07-18-2009, 22:13
This applies to county and state parks in the Commonwealth of Virginia and is closely monitored in some but not in others.
The state park minutes from where I live which has many visitors every weekend has signage that states the alcohol policy but quite honestly I don't see the policy being enforced.
Blissful
07-18-2009, 23:25
I AM an adult and I will drink alcohol when and where I please other than when I'm going to be driving a vehicle or am driving a vehicle. I DO have the LEGAL right to drink and I will.
But you don't have the legal right to drink where it says plainly on signs like at certain state parks, national parks, etc... "no alcoholic beverages..."
...right?
If we decide to usurp one rule because we deem it unjust in our eyes or we see others doing it (why can't I?) or we won't get caught or they aren't enforcing it...or really, I can do what I want, when I want - rules be *** ..then what happens to the rule of law in general in a society? Where does it stop?
Not to cause an argument...but it is the law in certain parks and jurisdictions not to imbibe. And in many hostels on the AT. And for good reason....
skinewmexico
07-19-2009, 00:57
I still think "Avoid Maryland" was the best response.
Give it up on the 2,000 miler crap ...
People who want to hike the Appalachian Trail should do what they set out to accomplish. Maryland is one of 14 AT states and amounts to about 40 miles or nearly 2 percent of its total.
If through hikers find Maryland's conditions of use unacceptable, then they might as well yellow-blaze Pennsylvania (229 miles) where an even stricter policy concerning alcoholic beverages applies. They'll need maps, a handbook and the ability to read and comprehend signage to figure out which of several different policies apply.
I still think "Avoid Maryland" was the best response.
I'm sure Maryland's AT managers would welcome through hikers unwilling to comply with their policies avoiding the AT there.
Bulldawg
07-19-2009, 01:26
We've taken our tent trailer to plenty of parks in other states that said "No Alcohol." Riiiigghhht.....they really believe that people camping out, whether in tents or RVs, and especially for more than one night, are not going to have that bottle of wine or dram or two of scotch in the evenings. Sure thing. We pour it in our coffee cups (ceramic) and sit outside sipping away.
I AM an adult and I will drink alcohol when and where I please other than when I'm going to be driving a vehicle or am driving a vehicle. I do NOT have to "hide" it from under age people nor am I "teaching" them to do bad things. I DO have the LEGAL right to drink and I will. I've had it for 32 years and other peoples deliquent brats and their bad habits are not my problem. I am not their village.
http://www.connerfamily.info/AllenCarrib/YouMustBeThisTallToDrink.JPGhttp://image07.webshots.com/7/6/65/30/86466530AXAFdL_ph.jpg
beakerman
07-19-2009, 06:13
Wow, governments way to get more tax money. I frequent alot of state parks in Florida and they do not permit drinking, however, everyone does, so stealth drinking has become an art............
Same here in the great state of Texas. I always bring my crown in an unmarked bottle and I insist on drinking my coke out of the can--a few quick kid drinks then I doctor it up. I miss the ice though but hey they aren't going to start analyzing my coke cans just to issue a citation.
beakerman
07-19-2009, 06:22
But you don't have the legal right to drink where it says plainly on signs like at certain state parks, national parks, etc... "no alcoholic beverages..."
...right?
If we decide to usurp one rule because we deem it unjust in our eyes or we see others doing it (why can't I?) or we won't get caught or they aren't enforcing it...or really, I can do what I want, when I want - rules be *** ..then what happens to the rule of law in general in a society? Where does it stop?
Not to cause an argument...but it is the law in certain parks and jurisdictions not to imbibe. And in many hostels on the AT. And for good reason....
It's called civil disobedience. If it were not for people being willing to break the law in the first place you would be living under the magna carta not the US Constitution and as far a civil disobedience goes there would still be whites only drinking fountains.
If you properly educate your children about alcohol then it won't be a problem for them. If you are open an honest with them about it and expose them to it then they will understand it and it will hold not mystery for them. I have seen too many kids from "good" families that did not drink go off to college and end up on Girls Gone Wild videos. Don't blame me and my public drinking (not drunkenness just consumption) for someone elses poor parenting.
Lone Wolf
07-19-2009, 07:51
I AM an adult and I will drink alcohol when and where I please
not at "The Place".
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 08:50
Have never been cited for drinking in any state, local, or national park.
Discretion is key folks. If you have a few nips off your "Poland Spring" bottle that might contain a clear spirit, in or around your tent, at the end of a day and your not in a drunken stupor, then save your $35 every time.
If you want to pack in a case of bud and 3 bottles of JD and make a party of it, you may want to think about that permit...and inviting me....:D
NO ONE in a state park is going to breathalize me if I'm not in a vehicle...that's for sure, but it will make me think twice about going to Maryland. Seems when laws and regs are new they always have to be sticklers about them.
Life in Moderation folks. So...can I just have 1 beer at the Place?:rolleyes: I'll dump the other 5:D
Mrs Baggins
07-19-2009, 09:54
But you don't have the legal right to drink where it says plainly on signs like at certain state parks, national parks, etc... "no alcoholic beverages..."
...right?
If we decide to usurp one rule because we deem it unjust in our eyes or we see others doing it (why can't I?) or we won't get caught or they aren't enforcing it...or really, I can do what I want, when I want - rules be *** ..then what happens to the rule of law in general in a society? Where does it stop?
Not to cause an argument...but it is the law in certain parks and jurisdictions not to imbibe. And in many hostels on the AT. And for good reason....
A hostel is private property and I always abide by the rules of the home/hostel/hotel owner. A park is paid for by my tax dollars, it is public property, and to prevent legal adults from doing a legal activity (for them) because "the children" might do it is not a reason to obey it. Maryland also prevents adults from ordering alcohol on-line or having it shipped in from other states (like when you visit a winery in California and want to ship a case back to your home - if you live in Maryland that is illegal) because "a child might get a credit card and order alcohol." That was the explanation of a Maryland Senator. That child and the parents have to deal with that. I should not be prevented from doing it because they're convinced a 10 yr old might try it.
I miss the ice though but hey they aren't going to start analyzing my coke cans just to issue a citation.Then you said.
It's called civil disobedience.
Sorry, It ain't really civil disobedience if you hide it.
Then you said.
Sorry, It ain't really civil disobedience if you hide it.
Absolutely correct. Back in the day, if blacks had drunk from the "white" fountain when no one was looking, it would not have been civil disobedience. Only when someone is in your face about it does it rise to the status of civil disobedience.
Power to the people! :D
It ain't really civil disobedience if you hide it.
The point you make needs to be made almost every time civil disobedience is mentioned here. It's a shame many Americans today don't understand the concept.
Illegal activity of all kinds when done without the knowledge of authorities and without exposing one's self to the risk of prosecution is not open defiance, a public statement of one's beliefs or political action with the intent to bring about change, but rather a cowardly act in comparison with the real thing.
Clearly not enough of us have read Thoreau's essay. Those who have not read it should consider themselves invited.
beakerman
07-19-2009, 11:35
ok perhaps civil disobedience is a strong word for it but I am refusing to pay an additional tax to be permitted to do the things I have the legal right to do and have paid the taxes on otherwise. I paid the taxes on the liquor, I paid my entrance fee (think l of that as a tax), when I lived in MD I paid my income taxes and I'm definitely of legal drinking age. Having paid all the requisite taxes/entrance fees and being otherwise legal I think that charging extra for a dinking permit is just double taxation. It's actually extortion--pay us the $35 or it might cost you $55 if we catch you doing what is otherwise leagal for you.
What I can't believe is how passive many of you are...let's jsut put another tax or fe on this or on that...and you all are jsut fine with it. You sit back and say OK take what little money I have left or well I just won't do that anymore. What if they said you need to pay for a safety permit to offset the costs of protecting your butt while you hike through someplace like PA? It's only $50 to cover the entire state but it does cost significant money to evacuate a hiker that breaks his leg. It's perfectly legal for you to hike the trail but you'll just have to buy this extra permit to do it now. Oh and if we check you and you don't have yoru permit it will be a $100 fine. How would all of you guys saying: "its the law jsut follow it..." react to that? Don't answer by saying it can't happen because trust me nobody really thought MD would ever charge a fee for drinking in their parks until after they came up with the idea. How many of you would just do the hike and take your chances?
Yeah civil disobedience is a strong word for it but what would you do in the above situation? Be honest.
It's simple. Leave HF and hike the 21 to the Dog Patch, get as hammered as you please, stumble the .6 to Pine Knob Shelter. Next day, you are out of Md. Easy as pie.
skinewmexico
07-19-2009, 12:06
It's the Man, keeping us down!
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 12:11
I'll pay a tax to drink in Maryland the day we let the banks fail, free economy to take back over and the government doesn't own a car company.
Stop kids from drinking in your parks by implementing more patrols, not a fee to drink in the park....it makes 0 sense.
The old 18 year old drinking age probably should come back soon, it would reduce the number of court cases in the United States by 1/3 I bet....not actual figures but the # of Minor in Possession of Alcohol charges of 18-20 year olds is huge.
If you can join the Marines you should be able to have a beer.
Unfortunate as it may be, we can not make laws that apply only to jerks and jacka$$'s. That would be discrimination. We need these jerk and jacka$$ laws when the jerks and jacka$$'s get out of control
A park is paid for by my tax dollars, it is public property, and to prevent legal adults from doing a legal activity (for them) because "the children" might do it is not a reason to obey it.
Unless you are also wrong about your place of residence, which you list as Alexandria, Virginia, South Mountain Park is not funded with your tax dollars. It was bought by Maryland and is managed by Maryland and they don't list protecting children specifically as their rationale for their policy change.
I suggest you read the links provided again and try to refrain from introducing non-issues in an attempt to derail the discussion. You might also read "Civil Disobedience."
Next time you visit South Mountain Park, announce you intentions, call attention to yourself and drink alcoholic beverages from their original containers in the presence of Maryland authorities. See what happens and report back to us.
Just because someone has lived long enough to satisfy the age requirement for legal consumption of alcoholic beverages does not mean that individual is empowered to make decisions about where they may be consumed.
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 12:26
Are we allowed to use Alcohol wipes in Maryland still? Or do we need to get a $3.43 permit to do that?:D
It's simple. Leave HF and hike the 21 to the Dog Patch, get as hammered as you please, stumble the .6 to Pine Knob Shelter. Next day, you are out of Md. Easy as pie.
Some people don't need encouragement. True, there are legal alternatives for those who desire to drink alcohol responsibly. Unfortunately, many today appear to be incapable of gratification deferral. They want what they want now and figure it should be given to them.
We don't need to be promoting illegal behavior here and undermining Maryland officials and trail club volunteers by inviting those who have little or no respect to behave in a manner which threatens one of our national treasures.
Promote the concept advanced in the quoted post and eliminate another shelter. I doubt PATC wants to be in the business of providing barf bags and picking them up daily. I'm not buying that those responsible for filling them will pack them out in the morning.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who doesn't care to share a shelter with someone who is hammered to use the word employed in the quote and I'm not interested in hearing the remedy is avoiding shelters either. The answer is encouraging their use by people who are fit to use of them as they were intended.
if your hiking in maryland on the trail you can drink they won't be there searching, it's the state campgrounds where folks get drunk and drive their boats, atv's and kill themselves or worst someone else
So, Emerald, are you now opposed to legal behavior as well? My suggestion was respectful of the law and the desire of those who drink. Thought I was offering a solution. If it would make it more palatable to you, they can leave the Dog Patch and camp whereever they want. Just offered the shelter as an obvious place to crash. There is plenty of tenting around but not near the shelter.
What would your solution be that would respect the government's right to regulate public lands and the citizens right to drink?
beakerman
07-19-2009, 13:51
I suggest you read the links provided again and try to refrain from introducing non-issues in an attempt to derail the discussion. You might also read "Civil Disobedience."
Ok I read it and this is what they say for their rationale:
Reduce the incidence of undesirable behaviors of park patrons who consume alcohol to excess. In 2008, NRP issued 413 citations for alcohol-related incidents and 32 DUI citations.
Reduce impacts on state facilities and natural resources;
Ensure the safety of park patrons, park staff and Natural Resources Police officers.
They also allude to another reason:"...within close proximity, and therefore present a potential conflict with the family atmosphere of the park campground if visitors are consuming alcohol. "
Now as I read it they are concerned about what amounts to public drunkenness. OK fine actually get out of your little park office, patrol the park, meet and greet people and make it 100% clear that if you are exhibiting undesirable behaviors then you will be heavily fined and ejected fromteh park. They also claim they are trying to reduce the impact on state facilities--what the heck does that mean. I've camped at plenty of state run campgrounds when I lived in MD and I found many of my neighbor campers to be quite heavy handed when it comes to trashing a campsite and that was without alcoholic infuence. Just because a campsite or camp ground gets trashed does not mean it's someone drinking a beer quietly while sitting at the fire or tossing a lure in the lake. I see more soda cans and bottles laying around when my family picks up the area around where we camp than I do beer cans. If it's about the alcohol then flat out ban it or better yet enforce the laws you already have on the books. Same goes fo rthe safety of others--they have laws on the books about public drunkenness too so that don't fly in my book. If they are worried about trashing a campsite then make a new law directed at that--if you trash it you get a fine.
Otherwise this is just another thinnly vailed way to raise money. You are not going to tell me that you as a non-alcohol consumer use less facilities than I do--that's BS.
Nasty Dog Virus
07-19-2009, 14:03
If hikers find Maryland's conditions of use unacceptable, then they might as well yellow-blaze Pennsylvania (229 miles) too where the same policy concerning alcoholic beverages applies, except they'll need maps, a handbook and the ability to read and comprehend signage to figure out where.
This is not true. Alcohol is allowed in PA St. Forest Lands. This includes Michaux St. Forest. Alcohol is not allowed in PA St. Game Lands or PA St. Parks. If you are inclined, you can drink from just north of Pen Mar to Pine Grove Furnace St. Park (about 50 miles). Just no drinking in Caledonia or Pine Grove Furnace St. Parks...
So, Emerald, are you now opposed to legal behavior as well?
I don't object to your suggestion, only how you phrased it. I hope the owners of the establishment you mentioned seek to be good neighbors, have a long-term business interest and refrain from overserving their patrons.
I suggest the same approach to alcohol in Pennsylvania. Patronize establishments where alcohol may be legally purchased and consume it on their premises. I regularly point out and even recommend appropriate locations in Duncannon, Port Clinton and elsewhere. Sometimes I even mention local products hikers may want to sample.
This is not true...
Yes, it is.:) You even admit what I say is so. North of Susquehanna River, the AT traverses a negligible amount of State Forest and through hikers can't legally transport alcohol onto Weiser State Forest. Get out your maps and see for yourself.
So, are you suggesting yellow-blazing from Harpers Ferry to north of Pen-Mar Park, hiking to Hotel Doyle and then yellow-blazing via I78 to New Jersey? Sounds like a good idea to me. The rocks are awful besides, especially in Berks County.;)
I once linked The Yellow-blazer's Guide to The Applachian Trail in Pennsylvania. I'll need to see if I can relocate it. There could be quite a demand for it this hiking season.
I AM an adult and I will drink alcohol when and where I please other than when I'm going to be driving a vehicle or am driving a vehicle. I do NOT have to "hide" it from under age people nor am I "teaching" them to do bad things. I DO have the LEGAL right to drink and I will. I've had it for 32 years and other peoples deliquent brats and their bad habits are not my problem. I am not their village.
no, you're not big enough to be the whole village, but is it possible the village might be missing their idiot?
Nasty Dog Virus
07-19-2009, 14:39
Yes, it is.:) You even admit what I say is so. North of Susquehanna River, the AT traverses a negligible amount of State Forest and through hikers can't legally transport alcohol onto Weiser State Forest. Get out your maps and see for yourself.
Perhaps we're not on the same page here...I thought you were saying that alcohol is not permitted anywhere on the AT in PA. I just sectioned Pen Mar > Harpers and saw the signs which said no alcohol on the AT in MD. PA is different from MD in that you can drink in PA St. Forest Lands. I understand that you can't get alcohol to Weiser St. Forest (on the AT) without 1st stepping on St. Game Lands 110 (either coming N or S)...but what I am saying is that it is not illegal to possess/consume alcohol in St. Forest Lands in PA (if you can get there without stepping on another St. Land in which alcohol is prohibited)
Ever since I returned to PA in 2005, I've seen more bears than Forest Rangers/Game Commission Officers. Lots of laws in PA but nobody enforcing them...
You are not going to tell me that you as a non-alcohol consumer use less facilities than I do--that's BS.
Who said I am a teetotaler? I'm disinclined to argue with you over who uses the facilities most and don't see how often you or I frequent the men's room has anything to do with this discussion.
Ever since I returned to PA in 2005, I've seen more bears than Forest Rangers/Game Commission Officers.
You must have been at the wrong places. Besides, they aren't the only people involved with enforcement.
johnnybgood
07-19-2009, 15:00
Do I sense a malcontent among us ???
MD policy will be strictly enforced from the onset but likely will be racheted down over time.
The ban on alcohol here in Virginia State Parks has had zero affect on me personally , and our state parks have seen a rise in visiter attendance over the years.
If you feel compelled to drink alcohol just don't be obvious.
Nasty Dog Virus
07-19-2009, 15:10
You must have been at the wrong places. Besides, they aren't the only people involved with enforcement.
Apparently the law enforcement is in the wrong places. 4 plus years of hiking the AT, MST, & Tuscarora Trails here in PA, PA St. Game lands and PA St. Forests...I hike them all year round and have seen "law enforcement" in the woods one time about 3 years ago in Rausch Gap. I time since 2005... I do not know anyone who spends as much time in the woods as I do who isn't thru-hiking. You'd think I'd have good odds of running into these officials...
Where should I be hiking to find the elusive PA Law Enforcement Official?
(Sry....not trying to hijack the MD thread)
(Sry....not trying to hijack the MD thread)
Yes, you are!:) Go look up if it's legal to have alcohol at William Penn Shelter if you want to learn more about Pennsylvania's AT.
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 15:27
It's legal to have alcohol anywhere if you're not an idiot and are discreet and don't get caught:D
Any ranger comes and knocks on my tent he's gonna get a friggin earful from me.
I came to the woods not to be disturbed and to relax. I've never caused a problem and never been arrested or fined in the woods.
What's funny is this is a non-issue if your responsible. Good luck everyone:rolleyes:
Nasty Dog Virus
07-19-2009, 16:44
It's legal to have alcohol anywhere if you're not an idiot and are discreet and don't get caught:D
Any ranger comes and knocks on my tent he's gonna get a friggin earful from me.
I came to the woods not to be disturbed and to relax. I've never caused a problem and never been arrested or fined in the woods.
What's funny is this is a non-issue if your responsible. Good luck everyone:rolleyes:
I feel the same. I have no problem with others drinking on the AT as long as they are responsible. Only way I'll have a beer on the trail is if someone else carries it! :) I like light packs more than alcohol...
It's legal to have alcohol anywhere if you're not an idiot and are discreet and don't get caught.:D
What's legal is a matter of fact, not personal opinion. Whether you get caught or not doesn't bear on its legality. You know that and it's what you're big grin signifies.
What's funny is this is a non-issue if you're responsible.
I don't think it's funny and it's not a non-issue. The position here ought to be obey the law, not come one, come all and engage in illegal behavior on the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. We'll teach you how to do it. There really isn't much enforcement and you can get away with it, trust us.
I have no problem with others drinking on the AT as long as they are responsible.
So who decides what constitutes responsible behavior when the democratic process which creates rules individuals don't like is disregarded? Individuals under the influence of alcohol or those who observe them? Who settles differences of opinion?
If settling a difference of opinion becomes a police matter, it reverts back to the democratic process and the the rule which was disregarded in the first place. The responsible postion is to obey the law.
What message does that send and where does it lead? I think we all know.
Then hide and sneak about like minors engaged in illegal activities who become adults with bad habits, who must continue to avoid detection, and, who, through their exemplary lives, teach more minors how to avoid detection by officials they pay to detect illegal behavior.
sounds like good advice :p
Emerald, you are correct, I could have worded my advice a bit better but I guess most people got the gist. However, what I think we have here is good democratic speech. This is a recently passed law that people are either agreeing with or showing there displeasure with. I would hope that my fellow citizens wouldn't all just fall lock step in agreement with everything the government does.
Do you ever speed? Do you ever break any regulation or ordinance? I imagine you do. I can't imagine anyone who does not disregard the multitude of arbitrary over-reaching laws when experience tells them that disregarding that ordinance will do no reasonable harm. Drinking a shot of whiskey in your tent before going to sleep while camping MD may be illegal, but I would hope I live in a country where the citizenry are still freethinking enough to decide for themselves what harm may come from such an act and act according to that belief.
beakerman
07-19-2009, 19:31
Who said I am a teetotaler? I'm disinclined to argue with you over who uses the facilities most and don't see how often you or I frequent the men's room has anything to do with this discussion.
Umm because you justify your attitude that charging a fee to consume alcohol by what the original link states clearly as the rationale behind the change in policy. they say it's to reduce some sort of burden on the system. I never said anything about restrooms though...odd how you went there.
If they want to flat out ban alcohol then fine do so. But to sit there and say you can have it but you have to pay again for it is crap. It's a double taxation. You paid taxes on it to buy it and now they tell you that in order to drink it you have to pay a fee (read tax) to do so or they will fine you. I don't buy any of the arguments they put forth in the link provided--all three arguments are weak. They say they issued 418 citations like that is some sort of problem--MD does not seem to have a problems giving anyone trying to drive through their state a ticket so why should MDDNR be any different? How many people visited the parks during the 2008 season? I'd bet you a bunch of money it was many, many times more than 418. For craps sake just get out of the car and write people up when they misbehave.
You still haven't made any comments on my proposal to institute a safety fee to offset the costs to the Commonweath of Pennsylvania for evacuating injured hikers from the AT. What do you think of that. That idea actually makes sense because then the folks that are the source of the drain on the system--all those darned hikers--pay for the services the state provides. Im dead serious I'm going to write the boys there in Harrisburg and propose that as a new source of revenue. Its jsut a fee right?
This is a recently passed law that people are either agreeing with or showing their displeasure with.
The expression of personal opinion on this matter serves little purpose. Few here are residents of Maryland or are in any position whatsoever to change what may not suit them. The new policy has now been called to the attention of those who've read it and it's not difficult to comply.
The discussion here reallys serves little purpose.
That is debatable! :)
can I just say I'll drink to that
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 20:22
Gonna be tough to walk through Maryland Slosh knockered...but I'll give it a try:D
Let's toast on it.
Wise Old Owl
07-19-2009, 21:50
Avoid Maryland !
There are more than 12 states with some policy against alcohol, As we sat around the campfire with our drinks last night in Maryland we were not breaking the law this year- we had a camper.
I came up with a good one. Once again we are trying to enforce Prohibition on state property! We know it doesn't work. but here is the facts
484 citations out of "millions" of visitors - is less than 1 percent. The visitors pay 25-45 dollars per night to stay there and they cannot afford a "ranger" to police the area. They use volunteers. The money collected by the park would easily keep the park open year round - instead they now are only open weekends and the money collected is sent into non profitable state projects (possible wasted) that do not benefit the visitor.
The policy was made last March its total Prohibition on Nov 1!
Your thoughts on that?
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 22:13
There are more than 12 states with some policy against alcohol, As we sat around the campfire with our drinks last night in Maryland we were not breaking the law this year- we had a camper.
I came up with a good one. Once again we are trying to enforce Prohibition on state property! We know it doesn't work. but here is the facts
484 citations out of "millions" of visitors - is less than 1 percent. The visitors pay 25-45 dollars per night to stay there and they cannot afford a "ranger" to police the area. They use volunteers. The money collected by the park would easlily keep the park open year round - instead they now are only open weekends and the money collected is sent into non profitable state projects (possible wasted) that do not benifit the visitor.
Your thoughts on that?
What did that say....I'm half a pint away from sleeping and can't understand why I need a $35 permit to consent in what federal and state laws say I can do as a citizen above the age of 21.
Don't smoke anymore but are they charging people some sort of nominal fee for that too? Because minors could get involved in that as well...
So...if you really want to drum up state revenue, issue a $25 smoking permit for cigarette smokers to tape to their foreheads every time they light up. FYI, I could care less if you smoke or not, it's your body I'm making a comparison in...wait for it...my own word...ridiculosityness.
saimyoji
07-19-2009, 22:14
don't get caught drinking anywhere along the trail in PA....i know of only one exception....just north of Ashfield Rd. the trail goes through private land...i guess you could drink there..and eat blueberries. :)
Wise Old Owl
07-19-2009, 22:17
Have never been cited for drinking in any state, local, or national park.
Discretion is key folks. If you have a few nips off your "Poland Spring" bottle that might contain a clear spirit, in or around your tent, at the end of a day and your not in a drunken stupor, then save your $35 every time.
If you want to pack in a case of bud and 3 bottles of JD and make a party of it, you may want to think about that permit...and inviting me....:D
NO ONE in a state park is going to breathalize me if I'm not in a vehicle...that's for sure, but it will make me think twice about going to Maryland. Seems when laws and regs are new they always have to be sticklers about them.
Life in Moderation folks. So...can I just have 1 beer at the Place?:rolleyes: I'll dump the other 5:D
Please look a little closer - that was a group permit and they may have changed the rules again it's total prohibition - no permit next year.
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 22:41
don't get caught drinking anywhere along the trail in PA....i know of only one exception....just north of Ashfield Rd. the trail goes through private land...i guess you could drink there..and eat blueberries. :)
I love when people say, get caught drinking like it's a friggin teenage party. Have I been transported back to the Larter farm partying in the woods in 1998?
Is Clinton still president? I'm an adult. No one is going to "catch" me drinking. I will keep to myself and not cause a problem. Concern yourselves with people causing problems folks. Does not always involve alcohol.
Wise Old Owl
07-19-2009, 23:10
I love when people say, get caught drinking like it's a friggin teenage party. Have I been transported back to the Larter farm partying in the woods in 1998?
Is Clinton still president? I'm an adult. No one is going to "catch" me drinking. I will keep to myself and not cause a problem. Concern yourselves with people causing problems folks. Does not always involve alcohol.
Homer - please re read the previous posts on this page - you are "missing" some information. It's not about getting caught. its more about something else going on here.
One possible guess is the religious, "family" ethic is being imposed again. I left out a few euphemisms here.
beakerman
07-20-2009, 02:35
Homer - please re read the previous posts on this page - you are "missing" some information. It's not about getting caught. its more about something else going on here.
One possible guess is the religious, "family" ethic is being imposed again. I left out a few euphemisms here.
Religious ethic in MD? Are we talking about the same state here? As I recall (not trying to politicize this thread) is that MD is one of the more left leaning states---just my recollection--I could be wrong and things do change.
This is an excuse to take your money plain and simple. They figure the general pubic will always go for a raising of the sin taxes--smokes and alcohol--without much complaint. If the problem was the consumption of alcohol for some disruptive behavior that supposedly when along with it (just over 400 citations in a year--I know of small towns in backwoods Texas that write more speeding tickets than that in a month--that hardly sounds like a high rate of problems given the total number of visitors to the parks in a given year) then they would simply ban it like many other states and impose heavy fines if you get caught consuming in the park. I can understand the rationale behind a ban--I can even live with it (I will still carry my flask of crown and doctor my coke in the evening while I'm sitting quietly around the campfire but that is my problem).
What disturbs me is that very few are seeing it for what it really is. You have folks like emerald that say: it's the law and if you don't obey it you aren't worthy of being a 2K miler or whatever...grow a backbone and shrug off the shackles of oppression please! Or they say well I'm not a MD resident so I can't change it, which is true on face value but that does not mean you can't get involved in it or help motivate the folks that can have a say in it. It reminds me of the story about nazi germany and a priest that sat silently as they called for all teh pols first--he was not a pol so he said nothing then came the Jews...not being a Jew he was not concerned and this went on until they called for all the priests and he turned and realized he was the only one left...
Don't stick your head in the sand and let this crap fly. Call it what it really is unjust taxation. If they want money then just raise the entry/use fees and be done with it don't single out some group that you view as an easy target because 418 of them got a little out of hand last year.
Downhill Trucker
07-20-2009, 06:20
It's simple. Leave HF and hike the 21 to the Dog Patch, get as hammered as you please, stumble the .6 to Pine Knob Shelter. Next day, you are out of Md. Easy as pie.
The Dog Patch kinda sucks though. I say just do what you want hiking in MD. There may be ridgerunners (who probably don't care if you aren't littering) but I have never seen a DNR ranger on the AT in MD. And I've hiked there a ton. I think this pertains more to the "family" state parks.
This does suck for people like myself who occassionally want to go to one of these family state parks and relax and drink a few beers. For the record, I'll still be drinking at them, just now hard liquor drinks that I can put in a cup and no one will ask about. And we will be spending a lot more time at private campgrounds.
For thru hikers who get the 55 dollar citation, just don't pay it!!! You don't live in MD so it will not come back to haunt you. And yes, I know my state's govt sucks. They're flushing their park systems down the drain in a lot more ways than this, I assure you.
Downhill Trucker
07-20-2009, 06:25
Perhaps we're not on the same page here...I thought you were saying that alcohol is not permitted anywhere on the AT in PA. I just sectioned Pen Mar > Harpers and saw the signs which said no alcohol on the AT in MD. PA is different from MD in that you can drink in PA St. Forest Lands. I understand that you can't get alcohol to Weiser St. Forest (on the AT) without 1st stepping on St. Game Lands 110 (either coming N or S)...but what I am saying is that it is not illegal to possess/consume alcohol in St. Forest Lands in PA (if you can get there without stepping on another St. Land in which alcohol is prohibited)
Ever since I returned to PA in 2005, I've seen more bears than Forest Rangers/Game Commission Officers. Lots of laws in PA but nobody enforcing them...
They now have signs saying no alcohol on the AT in MD??? Where?
Nasty Dog Virus
07-20-2009, 07:45
They now have signs saying no alcohol on the AT in MD??? Where?
I just did Pen Mar > Harpers 2 weeks ago. I personally saw signs in Pen Mar, Ens. Cowall Shelter (I stayed here with the PATC Ridgerunner), Gathland St. Park, Washington Monument Park, Rocky Run Shelters, Dahlgren Backpacker Campground, Crampton Gap Shelter, Pine Knob Shelter, & Ed Garvey Shelter. Signage everywhere.
I can say that I did not see one person drinking while in MD. Not that I would have cared. I didn't hear one complaint in MD about the new Alcohol Policy. The NOBO thru-hikers that I met didn't seem to care as most of them were green-blazing once the sun went down...
Lone Wolf
07-20-2009, 07:54
I just did Pen Mar > Harpers 2 weeks ago. I personally saw signs in Pen Mar, Ens. Cowall Shelter (I stayed here with the PATC Ridgerunner), Gathland St. Park, Washington Monument Park, Rocky Run Shelters, Dahlgren Backpacker Campground, Crampton Gap Shelter, Pine Knob Shelter, & Ed Garvey Shelter. Signage everywhere.
signs mean nothing to hikers. matter of fact most of them are illiterate
Homer&Marje
07-20-2009, 08:20
signs mean nothing to hikers. matter of fact most of them are illiterate
Surprising too with some of there high levels of education.:D
Has anyone here ever been busted for HUI? Just wonderin'...
Mrs Baggins
07-20-2009, 10:33
Unless you are also wrong about your place of residence, which you list as Alexandria, Virginia, South Mountain Park is not funded with your tax dollars. It was bought by Maryland and is managed by Maryland and they don't list protecting children specifically as their rationale for their policy change.
I suggest you read the links provided again and try to refrain from introducing non-issues in an attempt to derail the discussion. You might also read "Civil Disobedience."
Next time you visit South Mountain Park, announce you intentions, call attention to yourself and drink alcoholic beverages from their original containers in the presence of Maryland authorities. See what happens and report back to us.
Just because someone has lived long enough to satisfy the age requirement for legal consumption of alcoholic beverages does not mean that individual is empowered to make decisions about where they may be consumed.
Ah but I did live in Maryland for 7 years and we are moving back there next year. We've paid for the building permits necessary to build a house there. We paid for our son's vehicle registration there, his gas for his car, and help him out with grocery buying there. So my tax dollars are still going to Maryland. And how much of a state park's "private" funding does in fact come from Federal tax dollar grants/"stimulus" money?
I do NOT openly drink from containers in any park that says "no alcohol." We pour it into cups and sit quietly and discreetly having our evening refreshments by the campfire. I have never advocated opening a case of beer or big ol' bottle of whiskey or wine or whatever and making sure everyone sees it. If the rangers are particularly active in the area then we have the privacy of our trailer.
I just had a discussion with my daughter about one of her wedding attendants (the wedding is this coming Saturday). Apparently the young woman got very drunk and obnoxious at a party over the weekend and now my daughter is very worried about her behavior at the wedding. We decided that we will not tell the rest of the wedding party that they cannot drink because this one person is irresponsible. Instead we will all keep an eye on her, keep her busy, distracted, whatever it takes, to keep her behavior above board and her drinking to a minimum. You (and the state of Maryland) would have had us ban alcohol from the entire event because this one person might cause a problem.
Gonna be tough to walk through Maryland Slosh knockered...but I'll give it a try:D
Let's toast on it.
42 miles of drinks woo hoo sign me up
Homer&Marje
07-20-2009, 13:51
42 miles of drinks woo hoo sign me up
Ahh yes...2-3 days of debauchery sounds like just what I need:D
Oh wait...I get enough of that at home. But seriously, some raspberry vodka and those tiny crystal light to-go packages. For anyone that is concerned it looks like fruit punch:D with a kick:rolleyes:
..and everything that can be said has been said. :sun