What is a "trail town?"

[Jester2000]

The Weasel and I were engaged in an interesting debate in another thread, and the question of how a "trail town" is defined came up. Is it proximity to the trail? Services available for hikers? Mention in a guidebook? Are all of these necessary or just some? Does a town become a "trail town" because hikers go to it, or is it the other way around? Do the locals have to consider it a "trail town" for that to be the case?

I don't consider Mars Hill or Cherokee trail towns, even though they are close to the trail and have the necessary services. Admittedly, this is because I don't know any hikers that have gone to these places intentionally.

So how do we define a town as a "trail town?"

[The Weasel]

Great thread start. You know me (at least from here) and I've stayed in Mars Hill and spent two half days in Cherokee when I had to take the Dog to Durham. So I walked most of it.

Proximity can't be the test (if there HAS to be a test) of what is a TT: Franklin and Hiawassee are no further than Mars Hill, I think, and Cherokee is essentially indistinguishable from G'burg except for the lack of alcohol.

TW

[Gray Blazer]

10% of the town's population are aware that a trail is nearby?

Hampton, FL is a trail town. The FT goes thru it, but, no one realizes it.

Unless it's listed in a guide book or a town wants the designation or a trail runs down the main sidewalk, who cares?

[kanga]

somebody go get jack.. he'll know what the answer is :rolleyes:

[The Weasel]

somebody go get jack.. he'll know what the answer is :rolleyes:

Even if he doesn't, he'll tell us anyhow.:D

TW

[Jester2000]

Unless it's listed in a guide book or a town wants the designation or a trail runs down the main sidewalk, who cares?

Me, apparently.

[Jester2000]

somebody go get jack.. he'll know what the answer is :rolleyes:

I'm just interested in an actual discussion, though, so no need to drag your luggage here. What's your opinion on the subject of the thread?

[kanga]

well, i would say that a trail town is one that is:
(a) within hitchin distance of the trail
(b) has available facilities that hikers use (e.g., laundry, food, showers)
(c) actually likes hikers being there (for the most part)

[kanga]

I'm just interested in an actual discussion, though, so no need to drag your luggage here. What's your opinion on the subject of the thread?
now jester, you know damn good and well, i cannot comment without at least one smartass remark. be patient.

[A-Train]

Does the community embrace the AT?
Are people aware of it/in partnership with the trail and local clubs?
Do hikers regularly go there?
Is it listed in the guidebooks?
Is this town generally needed by most folks (i.e. is there a more convenient/close/better option than this town).

There are lots of places that are close to trail (less than 15 miles) that offer services and that ocassionally see hikers (due to emergency, etc.) like Mars Hill, Cherokee, Warwick NY, Gettysburg PA, Abingdon VA, etc.

I don't think most people in the trail "community" would say these are trail towns

[Jester2000]

now jester, you know damn good and well, i cannot comment without at least one smartass remark. be patient.

Hahahahaha! Point taken . . .

[neighbor dave]

somebody Go Get Jack.. He'll Know What The Answer Is :rolleyes:

You Are A Riot!!:d

[whitelightning]

Mars Hill? I thruhiked last year, and never heard of this place. I just google mapped it to find out where it is. I would not consider this a trail town. it appears to be between Hot Springs and Erwin, which I would consider trail towns. Unless there were some emergency, I don't see any reason why anybody would need a town stop between these two trail towns.

As for Cherokee, I simply found it easier to get a hitch to Gatlinburg. And surprisingly, this was the hardest hitch of my entire hike. I think Cherokee is a bit farther than Gatlinburg as well. I also don't know of an outfitter in Cherokee, which is what draws some hikers into towns.

just my 2 cents.

[dreamsoftrails]

a town close to the trail that a hiker can use.

[Alligator]

Mars Hill? I thruhiked last year, and never heard of this place. I just google mapped it to find out where it is. I would not consider this a trail town. it appears to be between Hot Springs and Erwin, which I would consider trail towns. Unless there were some emergency, I don't see any reason why anybody would need a town stop between these two trail towns.

As for Cherokee, I simply found it easier to get a hitch to Gatlinburg. And surprisingly, this was the hardest hitch of my entire hike. I think Cherokee is a bit farther than Gatlinburg as well. I also don't know of an outfitter in Cherokee, which is what draws some hikers into towns.

just my 2 cents.I'd suggest there's a spatial aspect to it such that the combination of services available coincide with hikers needing/wanting resupply.

[kanga]

a town close to the trail that a hiker can use.
that's too easy :p

[TheTank]

Is New York city a trail town?

I know a lot of thru- hikers that have gone into New York city from the AT, in fact many more then I know that have gone to Cherokee. As for services for hikers, it has an service anyone would want.

[sheepdog]

Is New York city a trail town?

I know a lot of thru- hikers that have gone into New York city from the AT, in fact many more then I know that have gone to Cherokee. As for services for hikers, it has an service anyone would want.
Kirby thought it was

[Jack Tarlin]

I'd say Kanga nailed it pretty good in Post #8 above, tho I'd have to question whether or not a place has to like hikers in order to be considered a "Trail town". Over the years, for example, both Boiling Springs and Kent Coonecticut haven't exactly rolled out the welcome mat for hikers, tho they are certainly "Trail towns", as the trail goes right thru one of them and about half a mile from the other. But if a place is right on or really close to the Trail, and if hikers go there to stay, re-supply, or take some R&R, then I'd call the place a Trail town.

[Jester2000]

Is New York city a trail town?

I know a lot of thru- hikers that have gone into New York city from the AT, in fact many more then I know that have gone to Cherokee. As for services for hikers, it has an service anyone would want.

Pizza all night long, baby.

[TheTank]

I'd say Kanga nailed it pretty good in Post #8 above, tho I'd have to question whether or not a place has to like hikers in order to be considered a "Trail town". Over the years, for example, both Boiling Springs and Kent Coonecticut haven't exactly rolled out the welcome mat for hikers, tho they are certainly "Trail towns", as the trail goes right thru one of them and about half a mile from the other. But if a place is right on or really close to the Trail, and if hikers go there to stay, re-supply, or take some R&R, then I'd call the place a Trail town.

I think that Kaga's definition is not very specific, especially if you eliminate the fact that the town has to like hikers. All towns are within hitching distance (well maybe all towns on this continent), and almost every town has some service to offer to hikers.

This summer on the International AT I hitched from Riley Brook, New Brunswick to Montreal, which is over 400 miles, that makes it within hitching distance, and it certainly had services which I used.

[Jester2000]

I think that Kaga's definition is not very specific, especially if you eliminate the fact that the town has to like hikers. All towns are within hitching distance (well maybe all towns on this continent), and almost every town has some service to offer to hikers.

This summer on the International AT I hitched from Riley Brook, New Brunswick to Montreal, which is over 400 miles, that makes it within hitching distance, and it certainly had services which I used.

Yeah, that's kind of why I posed the question. There are towns that are quite obviously "trail towns," and barring a shift in the trail itself or the attitudes of hikers and locals, they'll always be trail towns.

I can't for example, imagine Duncannon ever not being considered a trail town, and not just because the trail goes right past the liquor store.

But I could easily see Kent not being considered one.

[Lone Wolf]

I can't for example, imagine Duncannon ever not being considered a trail town, and not just because the trail goes right past the liquor store.



you mean beer distributor

[Jester2000]

you mean beer distributor

You are correct -- it also goes past the beer distributor, right after it goes past the liquor store.

[Hoop Time]

You are correct -- it also goes past the beer distributor, right after it goes past the liquor store.

. . . and just before it gets to the 1 block side trail to the bar

[The Weasel]

Mars Hill? I thruhiked last year, and never heard of this place. I just google mapped it to find out where it is. I would not consider this a trail town. it appears to be between Hot Springs and Erwin, which I would consider trail towns. Unless there were some emergency, I don't see any reason why anybody would need a town stop between these two trail towns.

As for Cherokee, I simply found it easier to get a hitch to Gatlinburg. And surprisingly, this was the hardest hitch of my entire hike. I think Cherokee is a bit farther than Gatlinburg as well. I also don't know of an outfitter in Cherokee, which is what draws some hikers into towns.

just my 2 cents.

Not saying it's gonna replace Hanover in the hearts and minds of hikers, but Mars Hill is about 20 miles off the trail, no more than some other towns.

Cherokee has at least 1 hiking oriented outfitter, and traffic down from Newfound Gap runs both directions. Cherokee is about 5 miles further from the trail than G'burg.

TW

[Graywolf]

I don't know why anyone dosnt consider Suches, GA. Yes, it is at the start of the trail, but is a good place to recieve/remove gear contents before getting to Neels Gap, and not being far from the Trail, a great emergency town.

When I was there on my section hike, I thought it to be very open to hikers, I even scored 3 free BBQ sandwiches and a free ride to Neels Gap for emergency repairs, a ride back to Gooch Gap, all for nothing, except company. Now I would say, that is a Trail Town.

[Gray Blazer]

just because the trail goes right past the liquor store.



I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw. I guess I do care.

[kanga]

I think that Kaga's definition is not very specific, especially if you eliminate the fact that the town has to like hikers. All towns are within hitching distance (well maybe all towns on this continent), and almost every town has some service to offer to hikers.

This summer on the International AT I hitched from Riley Brook, New Brunswick to Montreal, which is over 400 miles, that makes it within hitching distance, and it certainly had services which I used.
kanga, with an "n". as for specifics, do i need to wipe your butt for you too? if you can't figure out hitchin distance as a hiker concept, well, you're one of those that hasn't hitched. yeah, i could get to wyoming on a hitch from damascus but what the hell kinda good would that do me on the trail? stretch it some more why dontcha? :D

[Mags]

An example of a "trail town" that was NOT a trail town previously is Chester, CA off the PCT.

Chester is about half-way on the PCT, a pretty easy hitch, is compact and (other than an outfitter) has all the services a hiker may need. Yet, it was not in the guidebooks nor the town guide. This was prior to Yogi's books.

More hikers started going to Chester, writing about it and when Yogi wrote her book, the town became a stop for many hikers.

Etna, CA had a similar thing happen. No one went there..now it is very much a stop on the PCT.

Leadville, CO had THREE major trails going though/near it so that makes it probably the only real trail town on the CDT. (The CDT, Colo Trail and the ADT)


So, what make a town a trail town?

I'd say a town near the trail, is known and used by hikers AND is small enough that hikers (for better or worse) have an impact on the atmosphere.

Or, to paraphrase, "I don't know how to define a trail town, but I know it when I bring my smelly hiker self into the town". :D

[Blissful]

I think a trail town definition also goes by hiker recommendation and yes, friendliness and openness to accept hikers. Like I would consider Palmerton, PA a trail town. And then there are some I probably would not. Like Salisbury and Kent.

[Jester2000]

Mags is definitely correct about Chester and Etna. Chester, in particular, turned into a big time trail town last year, with hikers shuttling there to avoid a fire. I was there long enough that the town came very close to being renamed "Jester."

And Etna is a very cool little town. I was told "it's far away, and there's virtually no traffic on that road, but the first car to go by will pick you up." This was an incredibly accurate description of what happened.

[Reid]

Im gonna say a trail town is one in which someone non-aware of hiking trails, regardless of which trail, cannot leave town without learning of that trail or that there is obviously alot of hiking going on around it. You won't leave Hot Springs or Damascus without noticing and at least hearing "A.T." once. Never been to Damascus though. Probably not a good definition either.

[Reid]

Im gonna say a trail town is one in which someone non-aware of hiking trails, regardless of which trail, cannot leave town without learning of that trail or that there is obviously alot of hiking going on around it. You won't leave Hot Springs or Damascus without noticing and at least hearing "A.T." once. Never been to Damascus though. Probably not a good definition either.

Kinda like China towns. You know when you hit China town. Or even in Brighton beach with the Russians, or Little Havana in Miami, or even the Korean parts of Augusta, Ga. You just know when your there.

[TheTank]

kanga, with an "n". as for specifics, do i need to wipe your butt for you too? if you can't figure out hitchin distance as a hiker concept, well, you're one of those that hasn't hitched. yeah, i could get to wyoming on a hitch from damascus but what the hell kinda good would that do me on the trail? stretch it some more why dontcha? :D

First, kanga, I apologize about misspelling your name.

My point is that hitching distance is not at all restrictive, and if your other criteria to define a trail town is that it "has available facilities that hikers use", then any town can be a trail town. As indicated in my other post, I have hitch hiked from the trail, and some long distances to get to far towns which offered facilities to hikers. In fact depending on what "facilities" you are looking for you may need to travel hundreds of miles of the trail to get to a town that will supply them. Going back to the question I asked before, is New York City a trail town?

I would say that it is not. I think my definition of trail town would consider the percentage of business carried out in the town which is directed toward hikers. Meaning small towns like Hot Springs, Damascus, and Duncannon would definitely be trail towns, but larger cities, or towns not frequented by hikers would not be. No matter of how close they are to the trail or what facilities they provide.

[beakerman]

I think 'gator hit on a key component of trial town functionality: it has to be where a critical mass of people need a service of some sort. For example we all carry a certain amount of food some more than others but how many carry enough food for a month's worth of hiking? not many and conversly how many carry only one or two days worth of food...again not many. So just from a food resupply standpoint trail town would have to be a certain number of hiking days apart.

This is of course in conjunciton with the afore mentioned proximity to the trail which is governed by the need for a service/abilty to get into town curve. If a town is difficult to get to but has essential services and is located where these services are critical then it will obviously make it economic to get there however if it does not offer a critical service that is needed at that point along the trail then the economy of getting there just does not exist. Think shuttle services near traditional trail heads on heavily traveled sections for example.

I think simply offering services that hikers need by default makes a town hiker friendly. Not to start any crap or carry over from that other thread but if you have some other definition of hiker friendly then perhaps there is an issue with your useage of said services--nobody wants to put up with a bunch of misbehaving visitors.

[Jester2000]

First, kanga, I apologize about misspelling your name.

My point is that hitching distance is not at all restrictive, and if your other criteria to define a trail town is that it "has available facilities that hikers use", then any town can be a trail town. As indicated in my other post, I have hitch hiked from the trail, and some long distances to get to far towns which offered facilities to hikers. In fact depending on what "facilities" you are looking for you may need to travel hundreds of miles of the trail to get to a town that will supply them. Going back to the question I asked before, is New York City a trail town?

I would say that it is not. I think my definition of trail town would consider the percentage of business carried out in the town which is directed toward hikers. Meaning small towns like Hot Springs, Damascus, and Duncannon would definitely be trail towns, but larger cities, or towns not frequented by hikers would not be. No matter of how close they are to the trail or what facilities they provide.

The Tank's comments regarding proximity are actually interesting. On the PCT last year, many hikers went into Los Angeles from Agua Dulce, mainly to go to REI, but also to hit up some other stores and get a meal. LA was certainly not very close to the trail, but it was possible to get there from Agua Dulce, the closest "trail town" to LA.

Nobody thought of LA as a trail town, but not because of proximity.

[Jester2000]

I think 'gator hit on a key component of trial town functionality: it has to be where a critical mass of people need a service of some sort. For example we all carry a certain amount of food some more than others but how many carry enough food for a month's worth of hiking? not many and conversly how many carry only one or two days worth of food...again not many. So just from a food resupply standpoint trail town would have to be a certain number of hiking days apart.

I think you've hit on something here. I don't think Lake Hughes gets a lot of hikers stopping in from the PCT, even though it has a great place to stay/eat/drink and a perfectly good store for resupply.

Why don't more hikers go there? Because an awful lot of them stayed with the Anderson's two days earlier in Green Valley.

[beakerman]

I think you've hit on something here. I don't think Lake Hughes gets a lot of hikers stopping in from the PCT, even though it has a great place to stay/eat/drink and a perfectly good store for resupply.

Why don't more hikers go there? Because an awful lot of them stayed with the Anderson's two days earlier in Green Valley.

I was not my idea I jsut restated it---'gator said it first or at least that is how I read the post...

Anyway continuing on that train of thought: trail towns should, theoretically, be spaced at a fairly regular interval along the trail. Perhaps one could use this interval to help define trail town status. Of course then you get into the debate as to the definition of this interval.

Then again there are those places that are very easy to get to--the trail practically goes through the town and in some cases actually does. Who can resist a pizza when it's a five minute walk?

You've asked a very interesting question there jester...

[Just a Hiker]

I think there are "Trail Towns" and then there are "Towns along the Trail". Towns like Damascus and Hot Springs are definately Trail Towns.........towns like Kent and Salisbury, CT are just towns along the trail. Further, some towns are only popular because of convenience or because of certain people. For example......If it wasn't for Ron Haven's generosity and dedication, I don't think as many hikers would go into Franklin, NC, and if a bus didn't stop right in front of the Inn at the Long Trail, not many hikers would venture into Rutland, VT.

[saimyoji]

I'm just interested in an actual discussion, though, so no need to drag your luggage here. What's your opinion on the subject of the thread?

i for one wouldn't mind having a peek inside kanga's trunk....:D

[dmax]

I think someplace like Hot Springs or Damascus is a trail/hiker town. They have everything you need.

I don't think Erwin is. If a person needs new shoes or a new tent... you have to go to Johnson City.
I

[dmax]

Don't know what just happened...I was saying about JC...I don't consider it a trail town but does have everything a hiker needs.

[The Weasel]

I think someplace like Hot Springs or Damascus is a trail/hiker town. They have everything you need.

I don't think Erwin is. If a person needs new shoes or a new tent... you have to go to Johnson City.
I


This is sort of my point: If you say that a "trail town" has to have an outfitter, food, cheap accommodations, proximity to the trail, then Cherokee NC is about as good as Gatlinburg or Franklin or Hiawassee, and better than Erwin. But no alcohol. If you say that alcohol, hostels, and groceries - but no gear - is OK (such as Erwin) a trail town, that means Suches sure isn't one, and Mars Hill is. And if you say, "I know it when I see it," well, folks, if you ever have seen Hanover, NH, it doesn't have a lot in common with Damascus, despite great resupply, gear, and, Lord knows, an abundance of places to eat (a few, without Yuppies) and drink vast amounts of alcohol.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

There are Yuppie-free food and beverage establishments in Hanover?

Really?

Name 'em. :D

[Jack Tarlin]

Having a decent gear shop is great, of course, but if, as someone suggested, you have to be able to purchase a good tent in order for a place to count as a "Trail town", well this would eliminate Hiawassee, Pearisburg, Duncannon, Monson, and, until recently, Hanover.

So I'm not sure the "tent" thing is the deal maker here.

[Just a Hiker]

Having a decent gear shop is great, of course, but if, as someone suggested, you have to be able to purchase a good tent in order for a place to count as a "Trail town", well this would eliminate Hiawassee, Pearisburg, Duncannon, Monson, and, until recently, Hanover.

So I'm not sure the "tent" thing is the deal maker here.

I agree......it's a fairly rare occasion when a thru-hiker needs to get to a town to buy a tent. From my experience, most thru-hikers who decide they need a tent do so somewhere between Neels Gap and Franklin, NC. I guess that's why Winton sells so many tents each year.....:)

[dmax]

And if you need a tent your next place would be Hot Springs than Damascus and so on.......

[Alligator]

Not every town that hikers consider a trail town will have the same exact services. While outfitters are important, hikers will make do, mail order, or take an extended trip to get gear.

The critical mass idea is something that been mentioned in various ways by many hikers. Consider two towns in close proximity. They are not exact because no two towns really are. One of them is likely to exhibit some set of characteristics making it more hospitable to hikers. It could be a great hostel, good food, hiker discounts, etc. Services. All hikers need resupply, but they aren't going to do that today and tomorrow. So in places, some towns get skipped.

In some places there may be only one town and you are stuck. Hikers either like it or they don't. If they like it, the town leans toward trail town and if they don't it's just a nearby town. Extend that and it could even be two towns and both are not considered trail towns. Then the services need to be augmented by "special characteristics" or simply good times.

In some places, hikers will want to visit the place just for what it is. That would be NYC or LA.

[rickb]

The critical mass idea is something that been mentioned in various ways by many hikers. Consider two towns in close proximity.

Sort of like North Adams, MA and Williamstown.

I am thinking both are towns, but only one might be a trail town. Even thought the one has most everything the other does.

[The Weasel]

I think a bit of it is also the 'herd' mentality fostered by the guides. Everyone says, "Yeah, Gatlinburg is a strange and fun place." And it's got a writeup in the guides, so people figure, "That's where you go." A lot of people won't even know Cherokee is nearby, and even more will figure, "It's not in the book, so it's no good." Sort of a lost adventure, but that's what the problem with guides (other than data books) is. And then there is so much word-of-mouth about a town that no matter how essentially unsatisfactory it is (and some "trail towns" are just dusty and a bit dirty and part of the sadness of Appalachia) it is considered a "must see" place.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Please tell us the Trail towns you found dirty, dusty, and sad.

In my travels, I must have missed them. :rolleyes:

[beakerman]

Please tell us the Trail towns you found dirty, dusty, and sad.

In my travels, I must have missed them. :rolleyes:

Umm I grew up in Appalachia and I found and still find large swathes of it dusty, dirty and sad...a land that didn't quite make it all the way into the modern era...like in the Billy Joel song Allentown: iron and coke; chromium steel. However I can't really say that about a specific "trail town" (what ever that really means since that is indeed what we are discussing). It's sad but I would say overall yeah that's how I would qualify the region where I grew up.

[ed bell]

If Mars Hill was ever a destination AT hikers considered for re-supply in the past, it certainly is not one now. I-26 is now complete between Asheville and Johnson City. I reckon hitching on the Interstate from Sam's Gap is a very bad idea. That sounds like a great name for a band: "Hitching on the Interstate".:cool:

[Jack Tarlin]

Funny how people (and all too often it's Yankees) always associate rural poverty and drabness with the South.

There are places all over Northern New England that would make Appalachia look like Southern California.

Country music is huge in New Hampshire. And Pennsylvania is probably a
bigger NASCAR state than Mississippi. And a greater percentage of Vermonters own guns than do Virginians or Georgians.

In short, not all rednecks live below the Maryland line. In my case, some of them live down the road.

[ed bell]

Rural poverty, drabness, country music, NASCAR, guns and rednecks all over New England. Now that opened some Yankee eyes. Welcome to the party.:cool:

[Jack Tarlin]

Funny thing.....you picture a typical "Appalachian" homestead, and the image that comes to mind is a ramshackle building undergoing various construction projects, all unfinished. There's a tin and tar paper roof, a dirt driveway, a creek out back. There are broken appliances and bikes in various places, all of them allegedly undergoing repair or about to be fixed. There's a beer keg on the porch. There are various animals, both wild and domestic all over the place. There's a woodpile, a brick pile, a cinder block collection, and lots of tools all over the place, some of them actually rust free. Oh, and the piece de resistance is the '49 pick-up truck in the yard that last ran sometime around 1990.

Yes, the typical rural paradise in the Old South.

Except, of course, I just described my place. :D

[The Weasel]

Jack, you need to get out of Hanover more and learn about the real USA.

First, Appalachia extends from Alabama pretty darn much to Maine, which is why they call the mountains, collectively, "the Appalachians" and the trail, "The Appalachian Trail." "Classic" Appalachia, I suppose, is not just the hill parts of Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia, but West Virginia, southeast Ohio, some of Maryland and into parts of Pennsylvania where my family comes from over the last couple hundred years. Those hills are filled with proud people who have not been treated kindly by time or America. And those problems extend through the hills all the way to Maine. And a lot of those people left those areas, yes, for Southern California, and brought that life with them; here, the Ghost of Tom Joad isn't just a song: Southern California has unemployment today that is massive and beyond that of almost any part of America other than my other home, Michigan: Riverside County, CA is a wasteland. It's doubly tragic that many of the people who live there are families from Appalachia.

But to the topic, of sad and tired towns, some of them "trail towns" and struggling? Some of the towns I've seen - including in recent years - that are close to the trail from the Deep South all the way into Pennsylvania are towns that live on Social Security retirees and UMW pensions, with very weak downtowns, empty storefronts, and little industry. While their poverty may be honorable, it's poverty none-the-less, and just because the lineup of Volvos and Beemers in front of Ben & Whits continues, a lot of those towns are hurting.

Ed's right.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, I ask a simple question and get a history lesson.

All I wanted to know was which Trail towns Weasel found to be dusty, dirty, and sad.

And while Weasel may want me to get out more, sorry, but I could spend 20 years in Maine, Weasel, and I doubt I'd ever encounter anyone who described their residence as being in Appalachia. For that matter I've spend a great deal of my life in New England and I've never heard anyone in New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachsetts, Connecticut, or Rhode Island identify themselves this way either.

Honestly, Weasel, sometimes you say some funny things.

[ed bell]

Jack, you need to get out of Hanover more and learn about the real USA.

First, Appalachia extends from Alabama pretty darn much to Maine, which is why they call the mountains, collectively, "the Appalachians" and the trail, "The Appalachian Trail." "Classic" Appalachia, I suppose, is not just the hill parts of Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia, but West Virginia, southeast Ohio, some of Maryland and into parts of Pennsylvania where my family comes from over the last couple hundred years. Those hills are filled with proud people who have not been treated kindly by time or America. And those problems extend through the hills all the way to Maine. And a lot of those people left those areas, yes, for Southern California, and brought that life with them; here, the Ghost of Tom Joad isn't just a song: Southern California has unemployment today that is massive and beyond that of almost any part of America other than my other home, Michigan: Riverside County, CA is a wasteland. It's doubly tragic that many of the people who live there are families from Appalachia.

But to the topic, of sad and tired towns, some of them "trail towns" and struggling? Some of the towns I've seen - including in recent years - that are close to the trail from the Deep South all the way into Pennsylvania are towns that live on Social Security retirees and UMW pensions, with very weak downtowns, empty storefronts, and little industry. While their poverty may be honorable, it's poverty none-the-less, and just because the lineup of Volvos and Beemers in front of Ben & Whits continues, a lot of those towns are hurting.

Ed's right.

TW

Oh, brother. Now lets not get carried away. Nobody loves poverty or drabness, but country music, NASCAR and guns can be cool, you just have to understand them.

[beakerman]

Funny thing.....you picture a typical "Appalachian" homestead, and the image that comes to mind is a ramshackle building undergoing various construction projects, all unfinished. There's a tin and tar paper roof, a dirt driveway, a creek out back. There are broken appliances and bikes in various places, all of them allegedly undergoing repair or about to be fixed. There's a beer keg on the porch. There are various animals, both wild and domestic all over the place. There's a woodpile, a brick pile, a cinder block collection, and lots of tools all over the place, some of them actually rust free. Oh, and the piece de resistance is the '49 pick-up truck in the yard that last ran sometime around 1990.

Yes, the typical rural paradise in the Old South.

Except, of course, I just described my place. :D

Yeah well same here. I grew up in Western Maryland and spent most of my "younger" days traipsing around in PA, WV, WMD and VA, so I know of what I speak.

Anthracite coal is all these folks have left being that bituminous coal is pretty much a dead market (they have gobs of it but nobody wants it because of the sulfur content--acid rain problem). It's the same in KY and TN.

I'm not sure if I would qualify much north of PA as Appalachia but they are the same mountain chain and are labeled as such on the maps so I guess technically yeah but not culturally and I'm not talking NASCAR but a more difficult to define quality that makes Appalachia exactly that...Appalachia. You are correct there are rednecks everywhere, even out in CA you find them so being a redneck is not a variable in this equation.

[Mags]

I've never heard anyone in ... Rhode Island identify themselves this way either.




I am just trying to think of my relatives back in Rhody being part of Appalachia. :)

The leather jackets, Marlboros and Budweiser longnecks (and the sprinkling of gold jewelry on the men as well as the women) would make the out of place in the mountains. ;)

[Gray Blazer]

Going back to the question I asked before, is New York City a trail town?




If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.

[max patch]

Funny thing.....you picture a typical "Appalachian" homestead, and the image that comes to mind is a ramshackle building undergoing various construction projects, all unfinished. There's a tin and tar paper roof, a dirt driveway, a creek out back. There are broken appliances and bikes in various places, all of them allegedly undergoing repair or about to be fixed. There's a beer keg on the porch. There are various animals, both wild and domestic all over the place. There's a woodpile, a brick pile, a cinder block collection, and lots of tools all over the place, some of them actually rust free. Oh, and the piece de resistance is the '49 pick-up truck in the yard that last ran sometime around 1990.

Yes, the typical rural paradise in the Old South.

Except, of course, I just described my place. :D

If you read the old AT books you just described the road walk going to Max Patch before the trail was relo'd.

[Schuetzen]

The dying small towns are not just in Appalachia, we lots of them in central Texas and there are many throughout rural America.

[chomp]

OK, let me jump in here. First off, Appalachia definitely does NOT extend into New England. While technically it might be true, nobody up here would refer to themselves being in Appalachia.

As for what makes a trail town, I think we are going about this the wrong way. I think its better to make a list of everything that would make the PERFECT trail town, and then score a town based on what it has. The higher the score, the better the trail town. For example, lets make a list of what has been said so far:

- Hostel (2)
- Other cheap accommodations (1)
- Free place to stay in town (1)
- Outfitter (2)
- Close to the trail (2)
- "One Hitch" from the trail (I'll get into this in a second) (1)
- Trail goes through the town (1)
- AYCE (2)
- Cheap food establishments (1)
- Grocery Store (1)
- Camp Store (1)
- Public internet access (1)
- Designated place to get fuel (1)
- Local trail angel to contact (3)
- Post Office (1)
- Everything in walking distance (3)
- Ability to buy / consume alcohol (2)
- Good local pub (1)
- Place with a hiker box (1)
- Hikers welcomed openly (1)
- Easy to hitch out of town (1) (not an issue on AT so much, but out west its a bigger deal)

Anyway, there are more items, but that is a start. So take the town you want to evaluate, and score it. The way I have this list set up, there are 23 points. So, the closer the town scores to a 30, the more of a "Trail Town" it is. I think if you evaluate towns like Kent, you'll see that they don't score very high. While a town like Cherokee might score rather high.

As for the "One Hitch" rule, this is way more important than proximity to the trail. The reasoning is, if I stick my thumb out, if there isn't a town between the trail and the town in question, most likely the person I'm catching a ride with is going to that town. 5 miles or 25 miles, I'm getting a ride there just as easily. However, a town that far away, it might be harder to get a ride BACK up to the trail, which is a real pain. (Think about Lake City on the CT).

So score away, or change the list, or change the point system. But I think something like this is the way to go, rather than a "This is a Trail Town" and "This isn't a Trail Town". Plus, we can have fun comparing the "Trail Townness" of all sorts of places, and see if our perception matches reality with whatever scoring system we come up with. G

Good question, Jester. :)

[chomp]

Whoops - I made a typo. When I started the list, I had 23 points, but I increased it to 30. Here is the corrected text:

Anyway, there are more items, but that is a start. So take the town you want to evaluate, and score it. The way I have this list set up, there are 30 points. So, the closer the town scores to a 30, the more of a "Trail Town" it is. I think if you evaluate towns like Kent, you'll see that they don't score very high. While a town like Cherokee might score rather high.

[Alligator]

LOL I was thinking of something very similar Chomp. My thoughts were slightly different in that you could have a pool of characteristics (variables) on a set (sample) of towns and then actually test to see whether certain variables where significant (statistically) in people's perception of trail towness. Pretty close ideas though you are looking for a classification tool in both approaches. I'll bet a master's student could get a thesis out of it. It would be useful in an economic sense to identify what characteristics draw hikers into a town, although perhaps the economic gains aren't particularly signficant. Jester would have to be on the person's committee though:eek:.

[The Weasel]

Oh, brother. Now lets not get carried away. Nobody loves poverty or drabness, but country music, NASCAR and guns can be cool, you just have to understand them.

Is that, "Oh, brother" as in, "Where Art Thou?"

Country music, Nascar and guns were part of Indiana life when I was growing up, and were before anyone much cared about "Nascar." All you needs is a loud radio, a '63 Impala, and a road between the cornfields, and a gun to start the race. Sometimes for other things. :D

Jack still needs to get out more. Not sure he 'has a car'. Mine was driven by Ralph, but then that was a while back. Nice family, though.

TW

[The Weasel]

Chomp:

Excellent approach. Add "Trail goes through town" for 3 points (self-explanatory) and delete "camp store" (redundant with outfitter and grocery) and you have 25 points. That scales up easily to a percentage (multiply by 4).

This might be a VERY useful project for WhiteBlaze. VERY.

TW

[Jester2000]

For someone without a car, Jack gets around more than just about anyone I know. I can't think of a year since I've known him that Jack spent more than half of his time in Hanover. That's based on personal experience, though, and perhaps has no place here if uninformed opinion is what we're going for.

[Jester2000]

Chomp:

Excellent approach. Add "Trail goes through town" for 3 points (self-explanatory) and delete "camp store" (redundant with outfitter and grocery) and you have 25 points. That scales up easily to a percentage (multiply by 4).

This might be a VERY useful project for WhiteBlaze. VERY.

TW

I agree with these modifications! This might actually be an interesting rating system . . .

[A-Train]

Chomp:

Excellent approach. Add "Trail goes through town" for 3 points (self-explanatory) and delete "camp store" (redundant with outfitter and grocery) and you have 25 points. That scales up easily to a percentage (multiply by 4).

This might be a VERY useful project for WhiteBlaze. VERY.

TW

I'm not sure how useful it would be, except to pass some long winter nights by.

While I love playing with formulas and stats as much as the next guy/gal, you're gonna find out 1 of 2 things:

either that a town like Mars Hill or Cherokee is really worthy of more hiker visits and/or that towns like Port Clinton and Boiling Springs are not "worthy" trail towns.

And i'm not sure how either of these finding will benefit a newbie or future thru-hiker coming here for articles and info.

There is no need to "create" trail towns as there are already too many on the AT, unless one has a need to resuplpy every day or two.

And on paper a places like Port Clinton, Boiling Springs and Harpers Ferry would come out looking unworthy, but people who've had positive experiences there can tell you otherwise.

Basically, I don't see any need to re-invent the wheel

[Gray Blazer]

The rating system would be good for determining which towns are definitely not a trail town. Or in other words, one that thrubees would want to stay away from. It seems like Robbinsville, NC would be a good town (close to Stekoa Gap) but I've heard it is not "hiker friendly".

[max patch]

I'm not sure how useful it would be, except to pass some long winter nights by.



I agree. Interesting conversation perhaps, but thats all.

A "trail town" is place where go to resupply and spend the night. And if I need to resupply I don't really care if the town ends up with a 30% rating or a 90% rating. I'm gonna stop.

Now I may decide to spend a couple nights instead of just one at a 90% town. But I'll decide that when I get there.

[Jester2000]

I'm not sure how useful it would be, except to pass some long winter nights by.

While everyone who knows me knows the importance I place on utility (the Twister Mat was also a groundcloth. Seriously.), in this case I think it would just be fun. Much like hiking.

[mudhead]

Access to hot shower and laundry, without spending the night would earn bonus points in my mind.

As to the rural poverty and ramshackle homestead. Look for newer roof shingles, and the size of the various woodpiles. Tells a story.

I can't imagine any sane person getting rid of bricks or cinder blocks. Might need them...

[The Weasel]

Think Yelp! for the AT.

A rating (with each item listed) would provide consistency and information. And if a town like Cherokee gets a higher "rating" to indicate it's a better trail town, that's the kind of information I think people would want easily findable, instead of ONLY the anecdotal stuff.

I think Chomp is on to something.

TW

[max patch]

Think Yelp! for the AT.

A rating (with each item listed) would provide consistency and information. And if a town like Cherokee gets a higher "rating" to indicate it's a better trail town, that's the kind of information I think people would want easily findable, instead of ONLY the anecdotal stuff.



How many bonus points does Cherokee get for being able to buy cheap "Indian" souveners made in China? Or getting a picture taken on the sidewalk with a real headdress wearing Cherokee? And don't forget getting your picture taken with a bear.

[The Weasel]

How many bonus points does Cherokee get for being able to buy cheap "Indian" souveners made in China? Or getting a picture taken on the sidewalk with a real headdress wearing Cherokee? And don't forget getting your picture taken with a bear.

Probably about the same number as G'burg gets for being able to buy cheap "DollyWood" souvenirs made in Bangla Desh. And don't forget getting your picture taken with a bear.

TW

[chomp]

OK, let me tweak this a bit:

- Free place to stay in town (3)
- Hostel (2)
- Other cheap accommodations (campground, motel discount, etc...) (1)
- Laundromat or laundry at overnight location (2)
- Showers available without overnight stay (1)
- Some location with a hiker box (1)
- Town Location (1, 2 or 3):
- "One Hitch" from the trail (No towns, 1 road, between trail and town) (1)
- Less than 5 miles from trail (2)
- Trail goes right through town (3)
- Outfitter (2)
- AYCE (2)
- Cheap food establishments (1)
- Grocery Store or other Resupply Place (i.e. Camp Store) (1)
- Public internet access (1)
- Designated place to get multiple kinds of fuel (1)
- Local trail angel to contact (3)
- Post Office (1)
- Everything in walking distance (3)
- Ability to buy / consume alcohol (2)
- Good local pub (1)
- Hikers welcomed openly (2)

Ok, this list mas a possible 33 points. You can multiply the result by 3 and get a total of 99.

[The Weasel]

Quibbles:

- Eliminate "Less than 5 miles from trail" as redundant with "1 hitch".
- Change "ability to buy/consume alcohol to "Alcohol available and friendly" with max of 2.
- Reduce "trail angel" to 2, maybe 1. Great thing, but not 50% better than, say, an outfitter or beer.
- Reduce "laundry at same location" to 1.
- not sure what "Town Location 1 2 or 3" means.

Quibbles, I know.

TW

[beakerman]

OK, let me tweak this a bit:

- Free place to stay in town (3)
- Hostel (2)
- Other cheap accommodations (campground, motel discount, etc...) (1)
- Laundromat or laundry at overnight location (2)
- Showers available without overnight stay (1)
- Some location with a hiker box (1)
- Town Location (1, 2 or 3):
- "One Hitch" from the trail (No towns, 1 road, between trail and town) (1)
- Less than 5 miles from trail (2)
- Trail goes right through town (3)
- Outfitter (2)
- AYCE (2)
- Cheap food establishments (1)
- Grocery Store or other Resupply Place (i.e. Camp Store) (1)
- Public internet access (1)
- Designated place to get multiple kinds of fuel (1)
- Local trail angel to contact (3)
- Post Office (1)
- Everything in walking distance (3)
- Ability to buy / consume alcohol (2)
- Good local pub (1)
- Hikers welcomed openly (2)

Ok, this list mas a possible 33 points. You can multiply the result by 3 and get a total of 99.

Ok i've got to ask: Why specify hikers welcomed openly? I have traveled to just about every corner of the US and several far flung lands on top of that and I have never not been welcomed--except the middle east and that is a different story all together. What are you folks doing in these towns that makes you unwelcome?

If you have the decency to clean yourself up a bit before you walk in the AYCE joint or the local pub then folks won't treat you like have leprosy.

If you come in clean up then go do your business things go a lot smoother provided you are polite and act like you have some common sense and not like they owe you something for gracing their establisment with your presence. Your $5 is not going to make the difference between a good quarter and bad one so they can take it or leave it for the most part and refuse service at will.

Trail towns can be like some college towns. They may be dependent on those students for tax dollars and be openly proud to have said instituion but they don't like having to deal with the behaviours that sometimes accompany that particular arrangement.

[beakerman]

Quibbles:

- Eliminate "Less than 5 miles from trail" as redundant with "1 hitch".
- Change "ability to buy/consume alcohol to "Alcohol available and friendly" with max of 2.
- Reduce "trail angel" to 2, maybe 1. Great thing, but not 50% better than, say, an outfitter or beer.
- Reduce "laundry at same location" to 1.
- not sure what "Town Location 1 2 or 3" means.

Quibbles, I know.

TW

The trail town location 1,2 or 3 is a scoring system:

one hitch is 1 point, 5 miles is 2 trail goes through is 3 points

come on Weaz--even I got that and i know you're just as smart as me. you must not have had yoru coffee this morning huh?;)

[chief]

My definition: A Trail Town is one where the trail passes through town or in close proximity NOT requiring a hitch or shuttle.

If the Trail Town (as described above) offers lots of hiker services and has a general friendliness towards hikers, then I'd consider it a good Trail Town. Otherwise, not.

Then, there are "want to be trail" towns, usually where individuals or groups actively pursue hikers with shuttles, services and such. Whether this out of generosity or need for business matters not. The point is, they want hikers! A few of these towns are better than some "real" Trail Towns.

[The Weasel]

Beakerman ---

Harassed for hitching in Cherokee and Mars Hill (by Chief of Police, yet!), while being polite, clean and standing on curb/shoulder. Went to small Chamber of Commerce office in Mars Hill and told Director that hikers bring money to town. She was appalled and personally gave me a ride back to the trail. Other places I've seen (including "established" trail towns) have treated hikers rudely on occasion and not been "welcoming." That's a good factor to add. (Mars Hill would get a 1 from me based on my treatment there, including others. Would have been a 2 but for the snotty COP.)

TW

[chomp]

The trail town location 1,2 or 3 is a scoring system:

one hitch is 1 point, 5 miles is 2 trail goes through is 3 points

come on Weaz--even I got that and i know you're just as smart as me. you must not have had yoru coffee this morning huh?;)

This is true, I indented those 3 items so it was more clear, but spaces get chopped off in the posting. I'll fix that in the next version. :)

[Jack Tarlin]

Gatlinburg ain't dry. For a lot of hikers that counts for a lot. If hikers can choose between a place where an adult can get a drink or where the locals have decided you can't, well all things otherwise being equal, a lot of folks are gonna go to the other place. And does Cherokee have a decent, i.e a real outfitter shop? That counts for something, too, especially early in the trip, when hikers are still swapping out gear, realizing they started with the wrong stuff, lack certain things, etc. Plus, at Newfound Gap, there's a helluva lot more traffic going towards Gat than towards Cherokee, and that counts for something too.

In short, I can't see Cherokee
overtaking Gatlinburg as a Trail rest stop anytime soon, in fact I don't think it ever will.

[Jack Tarlin]

Wow, if you have to be on the Trail or within walking distance to be a trail town, then this eliminates Hiawassee, Franklin, Gatlinburg, Erwin, Pearisburg, Glasgow, Waynesboro, Vernon, Williamstown, Manchester Center, Rutland, Gorham, and pretty much anywhere in Maine.

In short, there are plenty of "Trail towns" that aren't withing walking distance of the Trail, so I'm not sure the "On the Trail or within easy walking distance!" is a good criteria. It sure would knock out a lot of places that have been considered Trail towns for years.

[Blissful]

Oh wow the rating system is such a GUY thing. lol :)

For me, its the emotion of a town - if its friendly and helpful and makes me feel welcome. Which is why I like Palmerton and Gorham.

:)

[kyhipo]

a trail town is wherever you land!mt.tarlin I have enjoyed many spots on the trail.!ky

[max patch]

For me, its the emotion of a town

Oh wow! Thats such a girl thing. :)

[beakerman]

Beakerman ---

Harassed for hitching in Cherokee and Mars Hill (by Chief of Police, yet!), while being polite, clean and standing on curb/shoulder. Went to small Chamber of Commerce office in Mars Hill and told Director that hikers bring money to town. She was appalled and personally gave me a ride back to the trail. Other places I've seen (including "established" trail towns) have treated hikers rudely on occasion and not been "welcoming." That's a good factor to add. (Mars Hill would get a 1 from me based on my treatment there, including others. Would have been a 2 but for the snotty COP.)

TW

but why do you think that is? no rational human being would simply turn honest money down...they have to have a justification for it. Even in the days of segregation blacks could buy food but they just couldn't eat it at the counter. there was a water fountain for them too-they could ride the bus but not up front and so on---please note I am not saying that made it right just using it as an example that even in the extremes of racism people still want to make money.

Perhaps they had a bad run of vistors from the trail...I know that all goes back to that other thread and I don't really mean to hijack this one with that stuff so I'm going to let it be. Then again maybe you just looked like a vagrant? Not saying you did or didn't...I don't know i'm just propsing possible expalinations of why you were received poorly.

[Jester2000]

Ok i've got to ask: Why specify hikers welcomed openly? I have traveled to just about every corner of the US and several far flung lands on top of that and I have never not been welcomed--except the middle east and that is a different story all together. What are you folks doing in these towns that makes you unwelcome?

Well, when you look at the fact that you've never not been welcomed, you have to take into account how awesome you are.

On the other hand, there are some towns where previous behavior by hikers may color a town's view of hikers as a group. There are towns where outsiders who aren't hikers (bikers, Mormons, rodeo clowns) may have made a town wary of strangers. And there are towns that have had the reputation of being unfriendly to hikers because of issues in the past that have little or nothing to do with hiker behavior (here I'm thinking of Elk Park). Finally, there are towns that, while not unfriendly, have enough other things going on that the town doesn't really associate itself with the town, and by extension isn't as welcoming of hikers as some would like (I sometimes think of Hanover and even Harpers Ferry as being this way).

So places do get a reputation as friendly or unfriendly in the hiking community. Sometimes this can be a big tilting factor in how the town is perceived -- there's not much in Port Clinton, but there are a lot of friendly, gererous people. This is not to say you can't have a great experince in a supposedly "unfriendly" town, and it doesn't guarantee you a good experience in a supposedly "friendly" town. I, for example, had a great time in Elk Park, and on the other hand, despite repeated friendly hints, my modest request to have a chocolate put in my pillow at The Doyle in Duncannon has been rebuffed by Pat and Vickey every time.

[Jester2000]

Finally, there are towns that, while not unfriendly, have enough other things going on that the town doesn't really associate itself with the town, and by extension isn't as welcoming of hikers as some would like (I sometimes think of Hanover and even Harpers Ferry as being this way).

I meant to say "the town doesn't really associate itself with the trail."

[southpaw95]

DALEVILLE, VA has everything a hiker would need but I would not consider it a town.

A stop along the way but not a town.

[A-Train]

DALEVILLE, VA has everything a hiker would need but I would not consider it a town.

A stop along the way but not a town.

Friendliest Interchange on the AT! :welcome

[Jack Tarlin]

I like Jester's last post.

On the other hand, once upon a time at the Doyle, long before P&V took the place over, even if you were lucky enough to HAVE a pillow, you probably didn't wanna look in it, or much less, under it. :eek:

Sometimes, it's better to be happy with the hand you're dealt and leave it at that.

[beakerman]

Well, when you look at the fact that you've never not been welcomed, you have to take into account how awesome you are.



Yeah I guess that did kind of come off as a little over the top huh?

What I mean is I have never been asked to leave a place. I have felt very uncomfortable in exactly two places and I can understand why in both of them: both in bars: once in New Mexico I went to a little roadhouse and nobody there spoke english--being white as wonder bread I kind of stood out and I could tell they thought I was immigration of something--they were definitely not comfortable with me being there and tehn once again in a bar in New Orleans East--it was a black bar this time--yeah they have that sort of thing down there--nobody said leave in either case but I could tell they were not confortable with the fact a white boy was in their bar. In both cases I drank my one beer and left on my merry way I did not feel threatened but I did feel that I was intruding on something and should make a tasteful exit but not exactly run away either.

But those are individual establishments I can't say I have ever been in a town that did not welcome my business in general. I've been places that didn't have what I wanted and been told where Ic an get it but is that unwelcome? I just don't understand what you all mean unfriendly--other than a direct case like Weasle mentioned. Is that what you all are going on about? I've seen hitchhikers "harassed" everywhere in this country by the local police. It depends on the local laws and the mood of the officer you are dealing with. i've been stopped and questioned by LE when walking int o town from a broken down car--does that mean that town is unfriendly? I'm not being critical I truely want to know what you all mean by it because I just have not seen it.

[Jester2000]

I like Jester's last post.

On the other hand, once upon a time at the Doyle, long before P&V took the place over, even if you were lucky enough to HAVE a pillow, you probably didn't wanna look in it, or much less, under it. :eek:

Sometimes, it's better to be happy with the hand you're dealt and leave it at that.

"Hey, they left a chocolate on my pillow!"
"Um, dude, that's not chocolate."

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, Jester, that's kinda what I was hinting at, tho some of us try the subtlety thing.

And believe me, I've found much worse things than chocolate in a room at the Doyle, but I don't wanna go there, either. :eek:

(And once again, this was long, long before the new owners took over!!)

[beakerman]

you mean those were not raisonettes?:eek:

[Jester2000]

I'm not being critical I truely want to know what you all mean by it because I just have not seen it.

It's a fair question, and does kind of go to the heart of my original post in a way. I think a lot of long distance hikers think of a town as friendly to hikers based on many of the things mentioned in what makes a town a trail town, and it's not just the attitude of the locals, but that has a part to play. Are the services within walking distance, that sort of thing.

But your mention of vagrancy has something to do with it. When the locals see a hiker, do they automatically think, "there's someone who's just come off the AT?" Or do they think, "great. A homeless guy." Certainly businesses will most likely take your money regardless. But I agree with Blissful about how a town feels, and this feeling comes from the way locals (and not just local businesses) themselves feel about hikers.

[Jester2000]

Um, Jester, that's kinda what I was hinting at, tho some of us try the subtlety thing.

I've decided that I'm not good at "subtle," whatever that is.

[Jack Tarlin]

Me neither.

Your chocolate sampler is in the mail. :eek:

[beakerman]

It's a fair question, and does kind of go to the heart of my original post in a way. I think a lot of long distance hikers think of a town as friendly to hikers based on many of the things mentioned in what makes a town a trail town, and it's not just the attitude of the locals, but that has a part to play. Are the services within walking distance, that sort of thing.

But your mention of vagrancy has something to do with it. When the locals see a hiker, do they automatically think, "there's someone who's just come off the AT?" Or do they think, "great. A homeless guy." Certainly businesses will most likely take your money regardless. But I agree with Blissful about how a town feels, and this feeling comes from the way locals (and not just local businesses) themselves feel about hikers.

Ok let's explore that topic for just a minute...the dirty stinky hiker vs the dirty stinky homeless person. As a local I am supposed to be able to distinguish between the two at a glance? Think of it as a local for just a minute:is that a hiker on a grand adventure or is that a bum coming to look for a handout and sleep on my park bench? I don't care how politically correct you want to try to be I can't think of anyone that wants their town to look like a homeless shelter.

Is it that hard to try cleaning up a little before you hitch a ride to town? I know the person giving you the ride would appreciate it. I've given rides to hikers and been very sorry I did--even a week later I could still smell them in the seat of my car--not vinyl or leather seats. I've also given rides to hikers that tried to be as nonodiferous as they could be and it was a pleasure riding with them even though they didn't smell like a rose they didn't make my eyes water.

[sheepdog]

Ok let's explore that topic for just a minute...the dirty stinky hiker vs the dirty stinky homeless person. As a local I am supposed to be able to distinguish between the two at a glance? Think of it as a local for just a minute:is that a hiker on a grand adventure or is that a bum coming to look for a handout and sleep on my park bench? I don't care how politically correct you want to try to be I can't think of anyone that wants their town to look like a homeless shelter.

Is it that hard to try cleaning up a little before you hitch a ride to town? I know the person giving you the ride would appreciate it. I've given rides to hikers and been very sorry I did--even a week later I could still smell them in the seat of my car--not vinyl or leather seats. I've also given rides to hikers that tried to be as nonodiferous as they could be and it was a pleasure riding with them even though they didn't smell like a rose they didn't make my eyes water.
a hiker generally doesn't have a shopping cart.

[Jester2000]

Ok let's explore that topic for just a minute...the dirty stinky hiker vs the dirty stinky homeless person. As a local I am supposed to be able to distinguish between the two at a glance? Think of it as a local for just a minute:is that a hiker on a grand adventure or is that a bum coming to look for a handout and sleep on my park bench? I don't care how politically correct you want to try to be I can't think of anyone that wants their town to look like a homeless shelter.

I think it's not so much that they be able to distinguish them at a glance. It's more a matter of the automatic assumptions about that person. I think that more than anything this is tied to a)townsfolk knowing about the trail and b)hikers frequenting the town often enough for locals to get used to hikers.

To give you a feel for what I mean: it's always easier for me to hitch from the trail when trail towns are close by, because the locals know that that guy standing by the side of the road near a trailhead is probably a hiker.

But hitching BACK to the trail from a town located some distance from the trail can be harder. Last year on the PCT it took me quite a while to get a hitch back to White Pass from Packwood, and I was CLEAN at that point.

[Heater]

"Hey, they left a chocolate on my pillow!"
"Um, dude, that's not chocolate."

...and dude, that's not a pillow... :D

[beakerman]

...because the locals know that that guy standing by the side of the road near a trailhead is probably a hiker.



Ok this is the way I look at hitching: If you want to get there you will be walking and sticking your thumb out not standing along the road. I never pick up anyone if they are standing along the road. I figure they are not in a hurry and they are waiting for something obviously or else they would be walking in the direction they want to go.

Sorry but that's jsut me and well my entire family to be honest about it. I consider myself a friendly and helpful sort of chap but only to those that are willing to help themselves. So if I drove past you while you were standing beside the trail head sorry you should have been walking mate and I'd have given you a ride.

As for getting a hitch back out of town I typically engage in this thing called idle conversation with the driver and I find out if they are likely to be headed back out that way in the next day or so to allow me to get back on trail. If I get a positive response I ask if they mind if I get a lift back on their schedule of course and I typically can make it happen. Locals are usually driving back and forth between places (hojme and work or home and shopping) not one way only. If they did then the population would be very oddly distributed don't you think? Maybe I'm just a better salesman/beggar than you but I don't see the problem. Like I said I've never been in an unfriendly town:o

[rickb]

Good stuff.

But is Monson any more of a Trail town now that it has one of the best laundromats around? And a bar? Or less of one since its no longer right on the AT?

Which is just my way of asking if you might want to allow for bonus points that can be added "just because".

[The Weasel]

Beakerman:

There are a lot of reasons why people may not like hikers, and they're pretty much different from the reasons you felt uncomfortable in Latino or Black bars, which is a whole 'nother topic sort of related to why Blacks aren't real comfortable in some "good ol' boy" bars in Texas, either. But that's for another time.

What many hikers don't realize is that they are, essentially, tramps and homeless people, although perhaps - maybe - not totally so, and not broke. But when I first came to Laguna Beach, I asked my wife if there was a hiking trail here; she adoubled over laughing. Men walking through town, having coffee at Starbucks, with beards, backpacks, bedrolls, boots, rough clothes. Some dirty, some clean. No, they weren't from the PCT, but they looked it. They are homeless, and this is an environment that accepts them, to some extent, but with much suspicion about criminal records, alcohol and drug use, and mental illness.

We don't look much different along the AT, and there are more people than you might think who are unsure whether we're nice folks on leave from a job or someone with serious schizophrenia and alcohol problems, and sometimes hikers act like that, too. I've been lectured by rides in Erwin, fingered by people driving past me in Virginia, and a lot of other things. In a word, much like you in those bars, we appear different.

We're not totally different to everyone in some towns; those are the ones that have the ambiance of "welcome hikers". Damascus is one. But even there, people can reach their limit.

TW

[Jester2000]

Ok this is the way I look at hitching: If you want to get there you will be walking and sticking your thumb out not standing along the road. I never pick up anyone if they are standing along the road. I figure they are not in a hurry and they are waiting for something obviously or else they would be walking in the direction they want to go.

Sorry but that's jsut me and well my entire family to be honest about it. I consider myself a friendly and helpful sort of chap but only to those that are willing to help themselves. So if I drove past you while you were standing beside the trail head sorry you should have been walking mate and I'd have given you a ride.

As for getting a hitch back out of town I typically engage in this thing called idle conversation with the driver and I find out if they are likely to be headed back out that way in the next day or so to allow me to get back on trail. If I get a positive response I ask if they mind if I get a lift back on their schedule of course and I typically can make it happen. Locals are usually driving back and forth between places (hojme and work or home and shopping) not one way only. If they did then the population would be very oddly distributed don't you think? Maybe I'm just a better salesman/beggar than you but I don't see the problem. Like I said I've never been in an unfriendly town:o

You actually think someone standing by the side of the road with their thumb out is "waiting for something obviously?" I mean, in the sense that they're waiting for something other than a ride?

Sometimes I walk, sometimes I don't. Depends on the road. I'm not going to walk in the same direction as traffic on Route 12 from Packwood, WA to White Pass, where cars speed and there's no shoulder or sidewalk. I'm not going to walk from the PCT trailhead to Etna, CA for the same reason. In addition, there are many places just like these two where the trail comes out at a place where it's safer for cars to pull over, making it easier to get a lift.

And admittedly, sometimes I'm just tired, which is one of the reasons I'm, you know, hitching.

Fortunately for me, I haven't had a case where I haven't been able to get a ride when I needed one, so no worries if you passed me. There are, I guess, folks near trails that figure if I'm walking 2600 miles they won't begrudge me a ride just because I'm not pretending to walk to town.

As for this thing called idle conversation, is condescension involved?

I kind of figure that imposing on someone once is enough, but that's probably just me. I have had locals offer to give me rides back to the trailhead, most recently last year in Idyllwild, CA, and I've also had the same person who dropped me off in town be the one to give me a lift back to the trail. But I guess my idle conversation is just that, while "this thing called idle conversation" is not idle conversation at all, as what you're really doing is angling for a ride.

[max patch]

I've been lectured by rides in Erwin, fingered by people driving past me in Virginia, and a lot of other things. In a word, much like you in those bars, we appear different.



Gee, Weasel, with all due respect, perhaps you need to look in the mirror and think about how you act and present yourself when in town.

I've backpacked for 30 years and I've never been hassled by the cops, lectured by people giving me rides, or been given the finger by anyone in Virginia or any other state. And as far as I know, no one has ever thought that I suffered from a mental illness or was an alcoholic.

On the contrary, every interaction I've had with a local in town has been positive.

Of course, I don't consider myself to be "homeless" or a "tramp" so perhaps I put out a different vibe than you do.

Interesting.

[max patch]

I don't like the term "hiker trash" as I personally find it derogatory to hikers (I realize that most everyone else here likes the term; no need to "correct" me).

Perhaps since I don't consider myself to be "trash" explains why I'm not treated like "trash" when in town.

[The Weasel]

Gee, Weasel, with all due respect, perhaps you need to look in the mirror and think about how you act and present yourself when in town.

I've backpacked for 30 years and I've never been hassled by the cops, lectured by people giving me rides, or been given the finger by anyone in Virginia or any other state. And as far as I know, no one has ever thought that I suffered from a mental illness or was an alcoholic.

On the contrary, every interaction I've had with a local in town has been positive.

Of course, I don't consider myself to be "homeless" or a "tramp" so perhaps I put out a different vibe than you do.

Interesting.

Well, gosh, Max. You must of been there, I guess, to know all this. Yep, that's Max. Knows it all.

Cherokee, my first 'keep moving and don't hitchhike' was from Tribal Police. Standing there, thumb out, on the curb out of the roadway, and away from parked cars, with a smiling face and a backpack and a small sign, "Ride to Trail". They don't like hitchers in Cherokee, a point I've made before. Mars Hill? Pretty much the same thing, although, as I've also noted, I must have been nice enough for the Director of the Chamber of Commerce to volunteer to give me a ride back to the trail. Nice lady. Hence my fondish memories of the town.

And we don't get a "better class" of homeless people here in Laguna Beach or Southern California. Most are good, decent people who, for many reasons, have left their homes. They camp (gasp!) in stealth (Oh, Goodness!) ways, use free showers in the park and at hostels, oops! I mean shelters, where they launder (for free!) their clothes. Does any of this sound familiar, fellow hikers? Many of the men have beards (others shave), and many use pack frames to carry their gear, including their sleeping bags neatly packed in stuff sacks. Most are polite, and a few abuse alcohol, some write poetry (pretty good, too) and others don't say much. So yes, much of the entire thru-hiker lifestyle is very similar to being homeless, or in the mode of classic nobos, oops again, I mean hobos.

So you go ahead and sneer some more at the homeless, Max. But when I spend a couple of months on the trail trying to thru, I learned quickly some of the attitudes that society displays towards them. Such as yours.

In a lot of ways (except for the lack of an outfitter), Laguna Beach is a pretty good trail town. In others, it's not.

TW

[The Weasel]

I've decided that I'm not good at "subtle," whatever that is.

Don't worry. Jack is good enough at "subtle" to cover for all the rest of us. That's him, "Subtle Jack." :D

TW

[beakerman]

You actually think someone standing by the side of the road with their thumb out is "waiting for something obviously?" I mean, in the sense that they're waiting for something other than a ride?

Sometimes I walk, sometimes I don't. Depends on the road. I'm not going to walk in the same direction as traffic on Route 12 from Packwood, WA to White Pass, where cars speed and there's no shoulder or sidewalk. I'm not going to walk from the PCT trailhead to Etna, CA for the same reason. In addition, there are many places just like these two where the trail comes out at a place where it's safer for cars to pull over, making it easier to get a lift.

And admittedly, sometimes I'm just tired, which is one of the reasons I'm, you know, hitching.

Fortunately for me, I haven't had a case where I haven't been able to get a ride when I needed one, so no worries if you passed me. There are, I guess, folks near trails that figure if I'm walking 2600 miles they won't begrudge me a ride just because I'm not pretending to walk to town.

As for this thing called idle conversation, is condescension involved?

I kind of figure that imposing on someone once is enough, but that's probably just me. I have had locals offer to give me rides back to the trailhead, most recently last year in Idyllwild, CA, and I've also had the same person who dropped me off in town be the one to give me a lift back to the trail. But I guess my idle conversation is just that, while "this thing called idle conversation" is not idle conversation at all, as what you're really doing is angling for a ride.

JEster...I don't mean to get into a tussle with you I'm just telling you that there are folks out there that will pick you up if you are walking but not if you are standing...its a fact not some judgement about you personally or someone that is standing there waiting for a ride.

And "obviously waiting for something" is clearly a ride yes but if that individual is hoofing it 2600 miles whats another one or two until you get picked up? At what point of standing there waiting for a ride does one decide they should start walking because they obviously aren't going to stop and pick someone up today? I'm not justifying my position to just clarifying it because I don't need to justify anything to you or anyone else--that's why it's called an opinion and let it at that.

Yes I make idle conversation with folks I find out what's in the other direction, take a mild interest in what they do for a living, married, kids and what not. I have not actually asked for a ride back to the trail head but through conversation they understand I am not going to be staying in town forever and will be heading out in a day or so. They typically offer a ride...like I said maybe I'm a better salesman than you but that is the way it is. I'm sure not going to turn a ride down.

As I said I'm not being critical of you. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this unfriendly town thing because as I said I haven't seen it. Then again maybe I'm just oblivious to this sort of thing.

[beakerman]

Beakerman:

What many hikers don't realize is that they are, essentially, tramps and homeless people, although perhaps - maybe - not totally so, and not broke.
TW


See that is my point...if you have received a poor welcome could it be because you look the part of what most folks would consider an undesirable?

I don't mean any disrespect to the homeless just being honest in that your average joe bloe wants nothing to do with them for the very reasons you state in your post. If you look like that then you might get a bad reception that's all I'm saying.

I know when I used to live near and hike the AT trail a million years ago I would hike with groups of folks that would make your nose hairs curl and looked like the hadn't seen the inside of a shower for years and they would go into town looking like that and the odd part is some of them would come out still looking like that. Several times I was left with the impression of "nothing but another smelly hiker"...they would wear their filth like a badge of honour. I've seen them asked to leave the premises and they got all bent out of shape. I do not call that unfriendly I call it good business--I'd have done the same. I guess I have no heart or something.

As I said I've never seen these unfriendly towns before so I'm trying to get a handle on what it is you all are seeing.

[beakerman]

jester

Enough of this hitch hiker stuff define hiker friendly town or even unfriendly town...I don't care which way you go with it. I will stipulate you can't use Weasy's example of police telling not to hitch because that is not really unfriendly in my mind it's called trying to protect the town and enforce ordinances--some places still have those types of laws on the books.

I mean if a town has an outfitter then why would the outfitter not want to do business with you? If they have a AYCE joint and a hiker is not running other customers off with looks and smell why would they not welcome his money too?

Or are you defining unfriendly as lacking these types of services...if so then you are double counting them because you already are scoring on the presence or absence of these things.

Is it because these things are not conveniently located/easy to get to---you score for that too.

Is it hostels that have unpopular rules? Then I would say the problem is with the guest not the host.

Do you think the town has priced itself out of the average AT hiker market? There is possibly a point to this one I have seen towns that "cater" to the well to do...that to me is a somewhat silly thing but that is their choice of target markets I guess.

Are you put out by the attitude of the locals? in what way are they making you feel unwelcome? Do they just not talk to you--heck plenty of places are like that its a cultural thing. Down south we talk to anyone where as up north some folk look at you like you are saying you want to rape children if you try talking to them in the checkout line. I've seen that mostly in the northeast not so much in the small towns where you would expect it but in bigger towns where folks don't know everybody.

As I said I'm just trying to get a handle on this thing...you all added it to the test of trail towniness (or is it trailness of a town?) and I have trouble with adding variables I don't understand. In my mind everything in that list is pretty quantifiable except this friendly to hikers thing. So I question it until I understand how it is defined. Thus far Weasle is the only one that gives a concrete example but I reject it as an example of unfriendly behavior but rather LE doing their job.

[Mags]

JC...you guys make something simple and turn it into a treatise.


What's the next debate...black duct tape or grey? :D

[beakerman]

JC...you guys make something simple and turn it into a treatise.


What's the next debate...black duct tape or grey? :D

Glad to be of service;)

However I'm colour blind and find your reference to duct tape colour choice unfriendly therefore I will have to score you very low on that category...once I define it.:-?

[TheTank]

jester

Enough of this hitch hiker stuff define hiker friendly town or even unfriendly town...I don't care which way you go with it. I will stipulate you can't use Weasy's example of police telling not to hitch because that is not really unfriendly in my mind it's called trying to protect the town and enforce ordinances--some places still have those types of laws on the books.

I mean if a town has an outfitter then why would the outfitter not want to do business with you? If they have a AYCE joint and a hiker is not running other customers off with looks and smell why would they not welcome his money too?

Or are you defining unfriendly as lacking these types of services...if so then you are double counting them because you already are scoring on the presence or absence of these things.

Is it because these things are not conveniently located/easy to get to---you score for that too.

Is it hostels that have unpopular rules? Then I would say the problem is with the guest not the host.

Do you think the town has priced itself out of the average AT hiker market? There is possibly a point to this one I have seen towns that "cater" to the well to do...that to me is a somewhat silly thing but that is their choice of target markets I guess.

Are you put out by the attitude of the locals? in what way are they making you feel unwelcome? Do they just not talk to you--heck plenty of places are like that its a cultural thing. Down south we talk to anyone where as up north some folk look at you like you are saying you want to rape children if you try talking to them in the checkout line. I've seen that mostly in the northeast not so much in the small towns where you would expect it but in bigger towns where folks don't know everybody.

As I said I'm just trying to get a handle on this thing...you all added it to the test of trail towniness (or is it trailness of a town?) and I have trouble with adding variables I don't understand. In my mind everything in that list is pretty quantifiable except this friendly to hikers thing. So I question it until I understand how it is defined. Thus far Weasle is the only one that gives a concrete example but I reject it as an example of unfriendly behavior but rather LE doing their job.

In direct response to the question of "hiker friendly town" it is totally in the eye of the beholder, I do not think that that particular aspect of trail town can be well quantified (if any can). But there are towns which hikers in general seem to get a better reception from townsfolk then others. This may very well have to do with how the locals view the hikers or how the hikers view the locals. And perception is often distorted by prior experiences, either heard through the gossip chain or by your experiences in other towns. If you hear something bad about a town, you either avoid the town and perpetuate hearsay or you go into the town and seek experiences to verify your hypothesis that it is bad. That is how the reputation of any town can grow as unfriendly.

However many towns get reputation as being very friendly and the word is spread up and down the trail that they are friendly, and so people go in there and enjoy all the comforts of town and only see the good that they are expecting from the town and the reputation grows as a good town.

Also it must be mentioned that much of this is amplified by the presence of an individual who goes well out of their way for hikers, a trail angel. I would use Dalton as a good example. The trail goes right through Dalton, but it also goes right through several other towns in that section of Massachusetts. Why do hikers stop in Dalton and not Cheshire or North Adams, or many other places through that section? It is because of Tom Levardi and Rob Bird, both of whom will do anything for hikers including giving them a place to stay.

So trail friendliness is more then willing to take your money for the services that a certain business offers normally. It is offering services to hikers which are above and beyond what should be expected from the average person.

I have encountered this kind of friendliness several time, that is people offering things I never thought they should offer me just because of the fact that I am a hiker, that is being friendly to hikers. Accepting your business, as any other customer is not.

[Lybarger]

Also it must be mentioned that much of this is amplified by the presence of an individual who goes well out of their way for hikers, a trail angel. I would use Dalton as a good example. The trail goes right through Dalton, but it also goes right through several other towns in that section of Massachusetts. Why do hikers stop in Dalton and not Cheshire or North Adams, or many other places through that section? It is because of Tom Levardi and Rob Bird, both of whom will do anything for hikers including giving them a place to stay.

So trail friendliness is more then willing to take your money for the services that a certain business offers normally. It is offering services to hikers which are above and beyond what should be expected from the average person.

I have encountered this kind of friendliness several time, that is people offering things I never thought they should offer me just because of the fact that I am a hiker, that is being friendly to hikers. Accepting your business, as any other customer is not.

I am sure Tom Levardi and Rob Bird are wonderful, giving people. But, I wonder if their offers of a free place to stay, free shuttling, etc. contributes to the hiker mentality of "I'm special and deserve special consideration" for food, lodging and the like further up the trail.

[Jester2000]

I am sure Tom Levardi and Rob Bird are wonderful, giving people. But, I wonder if their offers of a free place to stay, free shuttling, etc. contributes to the hiker mentality of "I'm special and deserve special consideration" for food, lodging and the like further up the trail.

You probably either have this mentality by Massachusetts or you don't, from either direction. I split this topic off off a thread that is a debate on just what you're talking about.


What's the next debate...black duct tape or grey? :D

The answer is red.

[beakerman]

In direct response to the question of "hiker friendly town" it is totally in the eye of the beholder, I do not think that that particular aspect of trail town can be well quantified (if any can). But there are towns which hikers in general seem to get a better reception from townsfolk then others. This may very well have to do with how the locals view the hikers or how the hikers view the locals. And perception is often distorted by prior experiences, either heard through the gossip chain or by your experiences in other towns. If you hear something bad about a town, you either avoid the town and perpetuate hearsay or you go into the town and seek experiences to verify your hypothesis that it is bad. That is how the reputation of any town can grow as unfriendly.

However many towns get reputation as being very friendly and the word is spread up and down the trail that they are friendly, and so people go in there and enjoy all the comforts of town and only see the good that they are expecting from the town and the reputation grows as a good town.

Also it must be mentioned that much of this is amplified by the presence of an individual who goes well out of their way for hikers, a trail angel. I would use Dalton as a good example. The trail goes right through Dalton, but it also goes right through several other towns in that section of Massachusetts. Why do hikers stop in Dalton and not Cheshire or North Adams, or many other places through that section? It is because of Tom Levardi and Rob Bird, both of whom will do anything for hikers including giving them a place to stay.

So trail friendliness is more then willing to take your money for the services that a certain business offers normally. It is offering services to hikers which are above and beyond what should be expected from the average person.

I have encountered this kind of friendliness several time, that is people offering things I never thought they should offer me just because of the fact that I am a hiker, that is being friendly to hikers. Accepting your business, as any other customer is not.


Ok so if you are getting something more than you pay for you consider the town friendly. That is a concrete example thank you. The way everyone else seems to be talking they get run out of town on a rail...

Not to drag that other thread into this too deeply but as pointed out already I wonder if that sense of expectation of the freebie from the "friendly" trail towns contributes to a sense of entitlement or at least the perception of it from others? What if you don't get yoru expected freebie for what ever reason? Is that town now unfriendly?

I personally think the idea of an objective scoring system for defining trail towns is really nice. That's the part of backpacking I don't like: figuring out if I can get what I want in a place--if I can't I'd just as soon keep going until it becomes a need (which changes the ROI of getting to where I can get it) or I get to the next place that offers it. If I'm runing low on tortillas and the town up ahead has no place I can get it I'll let it slide and try in the next town. I don't really like going to all the traditional places. I like those little hole in the wall diners and such so small offbeat unknown towns are my kind of thing but only if they have something that I want or need. A scoring system will help tell if I should even bother. Yeah I know that's what guidebooks are for but as pointed out already there are places along any trail that given the services offered would qualify but don't make the books for some reason.

Your point of the rumor mill is well taken. People do tend to go into anyplace they have heard about with preconcieved notions of what to expect there so it is kind of like the self fulfilling prophecy thing.

Of course just because there is a scoring system does not change the rumor aspect of it nor does it always get put into a book but as you point out there is a lot of word of mouth about towns so an objective scoring system could help things out. Think of it as a universal language--we all know exactly what goes into it so we all understand it. However once you put this friendly thing on the table you loose all objectivity.

I think friendliness is more about the individual than the community they find themselves in. Sure there are those times when you are just not welcome--I've personally found that is more of a racial thing and have seen where to some extent sex comes into play but that is usually among a very small crowd like at a bar or something not a community in general.

The presence of trail angels is already scored so adding it into the definition of friendly would be double dipping. I view that as a "service" and always try to repay in some form.

[Jack Tarlin]

Crazy thread.

Quick note to prospective hikers who may be using this thread to keep tabs on where the friendly places are, and which places they might want to avoid.

I've been to Cherokee and Mars Hill on many occasions and never had a problem there. So I dunno why Weasel feels the need to make 400 posts telling folks to be on their guard there. Fact is, these AREN'T Trail towns, meaning not one thru-hiker in a hundred has ever seen either one and won't see them on their trip, either intentionally or by accident, so we don't really have to worry about how "hiker friendly" these places are.

Honestly, people, if you wanna talk about Trail towns, then talk about them. But to talk about Mars Hill? I mean, that's like saying "Last time I was in Morgantown, West Virginia, someone was rude to me! NStay away, it's not much of an A.T. Trail town!!"

You're right. It ain't. Neither are Cherokee or Mars Hill.

[Lone Wolf]

cherokee and especially mars hill, aren't trail towns. in 20-some years of walkin' the AT i never heard of or knew anyone that went to mars hill to get supplies, do laundry or a motel. what fool would do that when all of that is right in hot springs? :-? same for cherokee. besides, they don't like pale faces there

[Jester2000]

cherokee and especially mars hill, aren't trail towns. in 20-some years of walkin' the AT i never heard of or knew anyone that went to mars hill to get supplies, do laundry or a motel. what fool would do that when all of that is right in hot springs? :-? same for cherokee. besides, they don't like pale faces there

If a post by Lone Wolf has more than four words in it, I tend to take it seriously.

[Lone Wolf]

If a post by Lone Wolf has more than four words in it, I tend to take it seriously.

i know what i'm talkin' about :cool:

[Jack Tarlin]

Wolf's right. My visits to Cherokee and Mars Hill were always in a car, and didn't come while I was actually hiking. I can't EVER recall hearing about or seeing a hiker visit either place while actually on a hiking trip, and for good reason.....Hot Springs is indeed right there, and Gatlinburg has a whole lot more to offer.

[TD55]

The answer is red.

If you mean the bright red, I disagree and would say your choice indicates you do not know what you are talking about. If you mean the maroon red, I agree and would say your choice indicates you have great wisdom.

[Jester2000]

If you mean the bright red, I disagree and would say your choice indicates you do not know what you are talking about. If you mean the maroon red, I agree and would say your choice indicates you have great wisdom.

I am a Jester, and so: a fool. Bright Red, baby. Billville Red, even!

[Jack Tarlin]

The main reason that few folks layover in North Adams/Williamstown is not just because most of them took time off a few days before in Dalton.

Other than a free tentsite at the Mountain Goat in Williamstown, there isn't a whole lot of inexpensive lodging in either place. (In the summertime, rooms at the Williamstown Inn start at $180.00; the Holiday Inn in North Adams is $89.00). There are cheaper places but they are way out of town, necessitating either a very long walk or a hitch, and this kind of defeats the purpose of a "town" stop, which basically means you're stopping because you want to be IN a town.

For the same reasons, a lot of hikers don't overning in places like Kent, Salisbury, Mancchester Center, etc. If there wasn't a nice free tentsite on the edge of town, a lot of folks wouldn't stay in Hanover, either.

In terms of what makes for a good Trail town, cheap lodguing counts for a lot.

[The Weasel]

Wolf's right. My visits to Cherokee and Mars Hill were always in a car, and didn't come while I was actually hiking. I can't EVER recall hearing about or seeing a hiker visit either place while actually on a hiking trip, and for good reason.....Hot Springs is indeed right there, and Gatlinburg has a whole lot more to offer.

Jack always prefers to make a dispute where one doesn't exist; it's called "trolling." I'm not biting.

My point on Mars Hill and Cherokee isn't that they are unfriendly; they're not (and I think they would resent any suggestion that they don't like people of different colors; the Cherokee have been friends of the Whites and the US - and for a while, the Confederacy - for a long, long time, despite the Trail of Tears). As I've pointed out several times (but Jack prefers to ignore), I was treated with great kindness in Mars Hill. Cherokee, I seem to be alone in realizing, has pretty much everything that Gatlinburg has, plus a casino and minus alcohol (although it appears that might be changing) , including groceries, inexpensive motels, restaurants and outfitter(s) although I admit, if you want "tacky" Gatlinburg outdoes Cherokee. My point has been - and is - "Why aren't Mars Hill and Cherokee considered 'trail towns,' other than they aren't Gatlinburg or Hot Springs. In short, it appears to me that to most people here a 'trail town' is a place that (a) is listed in the guides and (b) where everyone ends up going, lemming-like, because (see "a") the town is listed in the guides.

There are other towns that occupy similar "non-Trail town" status, surprisingly, so that's why I'm intrigued by Chomp's "rating" system, and think it has some real merit if it were put into play here on WB.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Got a lot goin' on this evening so going 'round and 'round with Weasel this evening isn't exactly on top of the playbook.

But I must say, considering the tone and contentiousness of so many of his recent posts, for Weasel to accuse anyone here of stirring up trouble or creating unnecessary disputes......well that's too funny for words. Buy a mirror, Counselor. :D

[yaduck9]

JC...you guys make something simple and turn it into a treatise.


What's the next debate...black duct tape or grey? :D


Why "grey", of course!??:rolleyes:

[Mags]

Why "grey", of course!??:rolleyes:

Grey is an accepted spelling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey) Now we are going to debate gray vs. grey ? ;)

More common in my old neck of the woods (at least if you had old-school nuns for teachers who hailed form Canada. See..damn those French-Canadians yet again!)..or when was the last time you rode the GRAYhound ?!?!?! :P

[yaduck9]

I bow to your superior wit....:D