I am all for going more light weight when backpacking. I could go farther faster, and not be so tired.
But I just don't see how a person can carry so little and be comfortable in 3 season hiking conditions and at the same time carry 10-15 pounds on their back. Does this include water and food?

So what I am asking is this: If there are any UL backpackers out there in Montana that are willing to drive to my home(I live in Havre), would you be kind enough to do alittle show and tell for me?
I can provide accomodations and anything else. We can do this soon, before the white stuff starts flying, or next spring. C'mon, isn't there someone out there willing to try to convert me?

http://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Complete-Ultralight-Backpacking/dp/0762737344/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254113874&sr=8-3


They ship. No need to pay for accommodations. If you don't like what you read, you are out perhaps $15 with S&H. Donate it to your local library.

Sorry I'm not closer, but I'd try to show you.

My gear, three season (down to about 45 degrees) comes to about 9#. That doesn't include food (1# per day) or water (2 qts unless I'm in dry/hot areas, or if there is no water supply). And I'm very comfortable. when temps go down to 30, my weight goes up about 2# for a different sleepiing bag and a stocking cap.

The key to it is to eliminate all the things you think you're going to "need" but never really do, and then to make everything else serve at least 2 and usually 3 different purposes. As an example, my sleeping bag is really a 50 degree bag. I use it as a coat when walking (feet end is the hat, then the rest as a cloak) if it's really cold. My tarp serves as a rain jacket, if I need one. My pack serves as a half-bivy, since it's empty at night, and holds my legs up to my thighs, with the collar sleeve pulled out. I wear my extra clothes at night, using my extra socks as mittens, if needed.

Those are examples. But basically, all I carry is a my pack and a tarp (no pegs - tie it down or tie to rocks), my sleeping bag, a sweater and fleece pants, extra socks, alcohol stove/matches, small pot, foil for a lid, spoon, honey sack and supplies, compass/map, some ducttape around my fuel bottle (pepsi bottle), half a toothbrush, dental floss and a darning needle. Not much more.

It gives me a lot more flexibility on how far to go, and is wonderful to carry.

Just try it.

TW

http://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Complete-Ultralight-Backpacking/dp/0762737344/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254113874&sr=8-3


They ship. No need to pay for accommodations. If you don't like what you read, you are out perhaps $15 with S&H. Donate it to your local library.

Yup, good read. Forget the faster, farther stuff, it's just easier on old bones to carry less wieght. There are still only so many hours in the day. My 3-season base weight is about 15# (I can go as low as 11# by substituting lighter or smaller stuff, but 15# is very comfortable for me). I can easily do a 4-5 day trip with food and fuel and bear canister and start the trip well under 30#.

+2 on the book Mags recommended. And then hang out on forums where the goal is to reduce weight, not be "bombproof", or compare testosterone levels.

This guy, http://www.andrewskurka.com/lifestyle/index.php actually teaches courses down in Wyoming in the Winds if you can get down there. And Lynn Whelen at www.lwgear.com (http://www.lwgear.com) puts out some inspiring videos, too. Good luck. Going light changed my life, pretty much.

I am in Montana.

However, right now, I am in Oregon enroute to Point Reyes National Seashore to pick up my kayak.

I did not make "winter preparations". I can expect to be snowed-in from the end of October to February, or May. Because I did not purchase extra food, etc. I will be in the Arizona strip country, perhaps Zion and Moab.

My website tells it all, about how ultralightweight to lightweight backpacking is achieved: check out my signature.

I would be happy to meet you.

In May, I will be at the Glacier-Waterton International Ham Fest.

I always have a pack, packed and ready-to-go in my vehicle just in case I see a hike I want. You are welcome to see I have an "athletic bag" packed with "possibles" for each set of weather and terrain conditions and adjust my pack from there. I also have backpacking food in a "food box".

However, you will be able to work out answers for yourself, from reading and asking questions about stuff in the forum. I think my website is comprehensive. Read there. Then ask for particulars about one thing or another here, for example, can I stay dry in a tarp? Is a tent rainproof? Are there really 20-degree rated sleeping bags that pack down to the size of, say, 5" diameter and 9" length stuff sack and weigh less than 2 lbs.?

This guy, http://www.andrewskurka.com/lifestyle/index.php actually teaches courses down in Wyoming in the Winds if you can get down there. And Lynn Whelen at www.lwgear.com (http://www.lwgear.com) puts out some inspiring videos, too. Good luck. Going light changed my life, pretty much.

Skurka and Glen Van Peski just taught a 10 course in ultralight backpacking in Bozeman, thru BPL. That would have been cool.

Check out http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/index.html

Good advice above; Connie's website looks good.

I'm still working on it, but some of the basics are:

Weigh each item with a scale accurate to an ounce or better ( a kitchen scale is good).

Ruthlessly eliminate what you don't need; lots of little things add up to real weight. This is the hardest for me; I love little camping gadgets.

Eliminate redundancy.

If you reduce weight enough you can use a very light pack, going from 5 or 6 lb to less than 1 lb for the pack. Mine is 1 to 2 lb depending on the configuration.

Sleeping gear between 1.5 lb and 2.5 lb; expensive version, really good down sleeping bag good to <20F (mine Feathered Friends less than 2 lb) plus short neoair. Cheap version, MYOG synthetic quilt and foam pad, probably 1.5 lb to 20F.
Extra warm clothes: my fleece jackets are about 1 lb; I have an old down jacket that's much warmer, also 1 lb. There are down and synthetic puffy jackets that are around half a pound (Kinsman pullover is about 8 oz at http://thru-hiker.com/kits/ ).
Cooking: The ULers use alcohol stoves, a titanium mug and a spoon -- very light. I add more, Snowpeak GST100 canister stove (my lightest configuration is just under 1 lb total cooking, heaviest around 2 lb with fuel).

Shelter: I don't know your conditions, but imagine MT is windy and cold. A tarptent might be best, for example this one at 1.75 lb: http://www.tarptent.com/productsheets/moment.pdf If you can get by with a tarp and groundsheet it can be well under 1 lb and cheaper.

I like playing with camping gear, so this part is fun for me.

--Walter

Snowleopard,

Thank you. I should have said, will the tarp (or, tent) stand up to the wind!

Those are good links. I need to update my website.


Different Socks,

I think a tarp can do it, pitched low using elastic cord shock-absorbers in the tie-downs. I know a ground sheet with a "foot" box sewn or glued in place, protects feet from driving rain.

I think everyone knows I like my OR Bug Bivy so much I haven't tried a full coverage bivy, except that heavier ToddTex bivy I used in the coastal mountains of southern Oregon.

Find out if you are a "cold sleeper" or a "warm sleeper" by renting a reputable brand name temperature-rated sleeping bag and trying it out in the backyard (near warm and dry shelter) at or just below the rated-temperature with a minimum-maximum thermometer in or outside the tarp or tent.

I think that is a good place to "check out" the most expensive purchase you will probably make, unless you know how to sew up a great sleeping quilt for a sleeping quilt and pad combination.

I love this forum. It makes me think..

I am all for going more light weight when backpacking. I could go farther faster, and not be so tired.
But I just don't see how a person can carry so little and be comfortable in 3 season hiking conditions and at the same time carry 10-15 pounds on their back. Does this include water and food?

very often, a light hiker can carry 15 lbs.

don't assume that the hiker cares about being 'comfortable' or that gear is the only way to be comfortable.

remember, carring heavy stuff aint all that comfortable either.

the reasons i have always gone light is for comfort while hiking, hiking further as a result, having a simple amount of gear that is not a pain to organize in camp, and thus peace of mind.

then hang out on forums where the goal is to reduce weight, not be "bombproof", or compare testosterone levels.

Ha. No way. its a competition through and through

:D

remember, carrying heavy stuff aint all that comfortable either.

This should be engraved in stone somewhere. Maybe on top of Sassafras Mtn in Georgia? :) Very, very true.

Socks: Carrying <15 pounds of base load is relatively simple, not very expensive (can be cheaper than a lot of traditional gear), and can be nice and warm and comfortable in all seasons. UL winter hiking will take some doing, and a lot of experience, but it has been done.

Find out if you are a "cold sleeper" or a "warm sleeper" by renting a reputable brand name temperature-rated sleeping bag


Not many outfitters I know of rent bags. They used to but not anymore

Best bet is just to get out there weekeeds, in different seasons and conditions, and see what works for you and how you are.

It's nice to see too that manufacturers are also getting in on the ultra light concept with new farbics in tents and packs - more products means better choice, and one hopes, competitive prices.

The reason why I suggested that book is that it is aimed for the traditional backpacker who wants to lighten up.

It gives the HOW and the WHY of lightweight backpacking rather than WHAT of the more gear intensive and overly detailed gear wonk focus found on many websites and books.

Besides, shouldn't a book on LW backpacking be, well, light? ;)

Finally, and this ain't a popular opinion around here, the best way to lighten up? Rather than worry about what titanium widget puts out the least amount of CO emission is to GET IN SHAPE. Losing the 20 lbs on the gut is harder perhaps than discussing which stove you should get..but being in shape, with a lighter pack, will let you enjoy hiking so much more. Being lighter weight on your frame is perhaps better than being lighter weight with your gear. If you can do both? GOLDEN! :)

I believe that the book Mags recommended is "Lighten Up" by Don Ladigan. It's a good book, including cute illustrations, covers the core concepts well and I think in an even-handed way.
A somewhat bigger (and if I recall therefore a little more in depth?) is "Lightweight Backpacking & Camping: A Field Guide to Wilderness Hiking", by Ryan Jordan. Possibly this holds pride of place in my mind for the lame reason of being the first of these that I read, but for what ever reason, I like this one best.

Ray Jardine has updated his classic in the form of "Trail Life: Ray Jardine's Lightweight Backpacking". I read his original book, and from that I would suggest that a person not *start* with Jardine. I think Jordan and Ladigan are a bit better about not putting their own biases across as universal fact, but Jardine has interesting comments for a person that really gets into this (drinks the cool-aid ...).

I've not read "The Boomer's Guide to Lightweight Backpacking", by Carol Corbridge, nor heard much about it so no recommendation either way. Jordan and Ladigan do it well enough that I'm not sure what she would add, but who knows.

A cheap and possibly good alternative that's closest to having "someone come to your house" would be to pay all of $5 for a DVD by Glen Van Pelski (of Gossamer Gear). It's a 33 minute video, and I've not seen it, but it's called "Lighen UP DVD", find it at http://tinyurl.com/kndlmp

Oh wait, it now says it's out of stock. Hmm, who knows, maybe interlibrary loan through your public library system would have a copy ... ? Or if you're patient, have the site email you when it gets back in stock.

Finally, and this ain't a popular opinion around here, the best way to lighten up? Rather than worry about what titanium widget puts out the least amount of CO emission is to GET IN SHAPE.

Those that cook in their vestibules or under a tarp would be concerned with CO.

Finally, and this ain't a popular opinion around here, the best way to lighten up? Rather than worry about what titanium widget puts out the least amount of CO emission is to GET IN SHAPE. Losing the 20 lbs on the gut is harder perhaps than discussing which stove you should get..but being in shape, with a lighter pack, will let you enjoy hiking so much more. Being lighter weight on your frame is perhaps better than being lighter weight with your gear. If you can do both? GOLDEN! :)

Pretty harsh there man............

REI no longer has rentals?

Is it still possible to get a sleeping bag, or quilt and pad, with an exchange policy, keeping it clean with a bivy and first-layer lightweight longjohns, or rather, the longjohns you would wear for those temperatures?

REI has rentals: http://www.rei.com/rentals

I have to donate, so I can "edit".

Those that cook in their vestibules or under a tarp would be concerned with CO.


Yeah..yeah..yeah. Nothing but gear wonkery. All stoves put out CO and flames, you have to be damn careful regardless of which stove you use. (if you even do it all..which is not suggested. For three season backpacking, it is far safer and easier just to suck it up for the night and eat cold if it is really that bad. Gear wonkery discussions are nice for the Internet. But, let's be honest, it all boils down to well, boiling water. :) )


Pretty harsh there man............

Not harsh at all when you have people on this site say just "stay on the couch, no need to exercise"..then give advice on how to shave 2 ounces on a titanium widget. ;) You don't have to be in stud athlete shape (I am sure as hell not), but let's be honest: If you are serious about losing weight for backpacking, it is going to be far more effective to lose weight on your body then in your pack. But, anytime someone asks about getting ready for hiking the usual reply boils down to "Just be a couch potato"...then there will be a detailed synopsis from some of the same people on a titanium widget vs a lexan whatchamahoosey. (Note: I am not aiming this anyone in particular. Honest. The CO discussion just happens to be the latest example of "angels on pins" that really does not pertain to real world use for most people. It is more of ****ing contest at this point than something useful).



"Lightweight Backpacking & Camping: A Field Guide to Wilderness Hiking", by Ryan Jordan.


A good book for some, but probably TOO much for someone new to lightweight backpacking. Better to KISS then to delve into fine tuning techniques IMO.

I'm gonna have to agree with Mags here. I'd still like to get my base weight down to 15lbs or so (I know, not UL but good enough for me), but it takes money to replace gear.

Instead I've focused on shaving weight in another area; around my waist. I've lost about 30lbs over the course of about 4 months or so. Ideally, I'd like to drop another 20lbs or so, which would put me at a weight I think is healthy for my height & frame. I lost the weight through a combination of a better diet and walking to & from work each day (8 miles roundtrip). Its taken time and effort, but I've lost more weight by doing this than I ever will switching to UL gear. Thats 30 POUNDS that I won't be carrying around with me on the trail anymore. I know this isn't an option for those of you who are already in really good shape, but for me this was the way to go. YMMV.

Of course, if you're gonna thru-hike the AT you're probably gonna lose some weight on your hike regardless.

Wish I was in Montana.

Pretty simple really. To start with - target 6# or less total for the big 4 - pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad. That leaves you 6# for everything else in your base pack.

GG "the one tent" weighs about 20oz, Montbell #1 spiral 15dF bag weighs 32 oz, a short neoair which is very comfy on a GG 1/8" pad weighs 11 oz total, 24 oz pack.
That UL big 4 list adds up to 5.44#.

Use a golite ultra 20 quilt and save another 12 oz

If you use a Combo gatewood cape/tarp/poncho, you dont need a 16oz rain suit or a pack rain cover. That saves another pound.

Once you reduce the weight and also as important the volume of your equipment, you dont need that 5# external frame Kelty pack you used to lug around, and you can go to something in the 20-24oz range so you save there too.

If you can get your base weight down to 12# total as above and add 5 days of food at 28 oz per day plus fuel, and 2L of water (13# total for food and water) you end up at roughly 25#.

In the summer its not that hard to hit 8# with some specialty cuben equipment ($$)so a total of 21#.

Uber SUL is 5# base or under, but that is very specialized and very stripped down.
6 oz Cuben tarp, 4 oz cuben pack, Cuben bottom bivy, Uber light quilt like Tim Marshalls 11 oz cuben down quilt etc.

Your total would be 18#, but I would prefer the extra comfort and carry the extra 3#. Not really that much difference in 18# and 21#.

If you just work on the big 4, put together a 4oz cook kit, use a superlight water system and throw out all the luxury stuff its pretty easy to do.

....UL winter hiking will take some doing, and a lot of experience, but it has been done.
A few that survived are still around. Just ask them about how they did it. My advice is to stop listening if you hear the word "luck."

You can get away with a lot during the three friendlier seasons. In winter on trips when easy escape is unlikely, I like to go extra prepared. I dislike trusting in luck.

However, I may change my mind as I age. Having watched compatriots wither away in hospitals, nursing homes and hospices, there's something to be said for easy exits.

Weary

A few that survived are still around. Just ask them about how they did it. My advice is to stop listening if you hear the word "luck."
]

Agreed, I didn't say I would recommend that sort of thing.

Yeah..yeah..yeah. Nothing but gear wonkery. All stoves put out CO and flames, you have to be damn careful regardless of which stove you use. (if you even do it all..which is not suggested. For three season backpacking, it is far safer and easier just to suck it up for the night and eat cold if it is really that bad. Gear wonkery discussions are nice for the Internet. But, let's be honest, it all boils down to well, boiling water. :) )

Must be nice to camp in temperate weather, eh?

Some of us don't just boil water. Yes, it's true!

You can do fairly light 15dF mild winter pack with a good bit of $, like maybe 14-15#. Gees my old winter setup in the 70-80s was 35# base.

Montana mid winter is another story.

Then again doesnt Tom Brown do his level 42 (or whatever it is) survival school for a month in Montana in winter ??

Must be nice to camp in temperate weather, eh?

Some of us don't just boil water. Yes, it's true!


Good to know!

Pretty harsh there man............


Sarcasm just doesn't show well in print. Or maybe I was trying to be facetious.

REI has rentals: http://www.rei.com/rentals

I have to donate, so I can "edit".

The REI's around here rent tents and other equipment, but not sleeping bags.

IIRC, each individual store website has a list of what they rent.

IIRC?

The rental link links to stores's lists in each state. Mail order rental?

I had Glacier National Park rangers ask me how I survived a "cold-spell" of 4-days the warmest day was -38 F. I thought 20-days horizontal blowing debris below -20 was worse.

Ultralight? That plastic scoop and a "snow cave"?

I had my "snow cave" training on Mt. Rainier in a "white out".

Well I had a big, long reply and thank you, but somehow it got deleted when i posted it.

Wish I was in Montana.

Pretty simple really. To start with - target 6# or less total for the big 4 - pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad. That leaves you 6# for everything else in your base pack.

GG "the one tent" weighs about 20oz, Montbell #1 spiral 15dF bag weighs 32 oz, a short neoair which is very comfy on a GG 1/8" pad weighs 11 oz total, 24 oz pack.
That UL big 4 list adds up to 5.44#.

Use a golite ultra 20 quilt and save another 12 oz

If you use a Combo gatewood cape/tarp/poncho, you dont need a 16oz rain suit or a pack rain cover. That saves another pound.

Once you reduce the weight and also as important the volume of your equipment, you dont need that 5# external frame Kelty pack you used to lug around, and you can go to something in the 20-24oz range so you save there too.

If you can get your base weight down to 12# total as above and add 5 days of food at 28 oz per day plus fuel, and 2L of water (13# total for food and water) you end up at roughly 25#.

In the summer its not that hard to hit 8# with some specialty cuben equipment ($$)so a total of 21#.

Uber SUL is 5# base or under, but that is very specialized and very stripped down.
6 oz Cuben tarp, 4 oz cuben pack, Cuben bottom bivy, Uber light quilt like Tim Marshalls 11 oz cuben down quilt etc.

Your total would be 18#, but I would prefer the extra comfort and carry the extra 3#. Not really that much difference in 18# and 21#.

If you just work on the big 4, put together a 4oz cook kit, use a superlight water system and throw out all the luxury stuff its pretty easy to do.


Tammoms,
Thanks for the advice, and to everyone as well. hard to believe that I have done over 9500 miles of bping and i still carry what many of you would consider to be a heavy pack.

Ooh... backpack with me.

You can carry the gourmet food.

I still have most of my old gear. 4# bag, 2 of them, 5-6# tent, its done, 4# backpack. All that stuff was light at the time. I used to sleep on a closed cell foam pad when they finally came out, so that was pretty light. Actually for the 70s my setup was pretty light. I had a down bag, Kelty alpine pack, semi light tent etc. I think what used to weigh me down more than anything was clothing and I used to carry too much water.
I usually cooked on a fire so that was light, but I had/still have a heavier Sigg cookset.

Still I was usually at 30-35# base, 40-45# with food, and my freinds would be at like 55-60# fully loaded with a heavier full frame pack of course wearing full shank Vasque hiking boots.

I still remember the first time I picked up Jims backpack loaded for a trip.
I said no thanks.

Finally, and this ain't a popular opinion around here, the best way to lighten up? Rather than worry about what titanium widget puts out the least amount of CO emission is to GET IN SHAPE. Losing the 20 lbs on the gut is harder perhaps than discussing which stove you should get..but being in shape, with a lighter pack, will let you enjoy hiking so much more. Being lighter weight on your frame is perhaps better than being lighter weight with your gear. If you can do both? GOLDEN! :)

You've got a great point, MAGS ....

I've dropped almost 20 lbs in pack weight, but what really made a difference was dropping three pant sizes.

IIRC?


IIRC = "If I remember correctly"

Clothing wise I figure 1 oz per degF below 80F, not counting shoes and shells.
Sleeping wise perhaps 0.5 oz per degF below 80F, not counting pad and shelter.
So roughly an extra 1 pound of gear for every 10degF drop in temperature.

That's in theory. In practice you need a little more safety margin as it gets colder.

The other big variable is food, as you can't skimp on food so much when its cold. That depends more on how much a person can burn, but those that burn less usually need more clothing and sleeping insulation. Say perhaps an extra 0.1 pounds per day for every 10degF colder. Of course you can eat just as much in summer, especially if travelling fast, if you are in shape to do so.

Say roughly 10 pounds plus 1 pound per day for lows of 50F.
Then add 1 pound plus 0.1 pounds per day for every 10F below that.

For a 5 day trip, that would be:
Lows of 50F: 15 pounds
Lows of 0F: 22.5 pounds
Lows of -50F: 30 pounds

But you could probably trim the 50F down to 10 pounds, and still be safe,
whereas you probably would need the extra margin of safety for 0F, so 22.5 is about right,
and most people would have alot of trouble in -50F lows even with 50 pounds.

My friend gives a talk on lightweight backpacking. Here are his slides.
http://picasaweb.google.com/beemancron/LightweightBackpackingPresentation#

My understanding of the ultra-lite concept is that you reduce your weight so that it's more comfortable to carry. With a lighter pack, the hiking is more enjoyable. You can hike farther and see more than before which increases the fun. It's safer because you are less likely to injure yourself from the heavy weight itself or from being unstable on your feet. Your gear is just as warm, safe and dry as heavier gear but it's made of lighter materials. You make do with less, and to do that your gear serves multiple uses.

Once people start lightening their stuff they keep trying to figure out new ways to get it even lighter. Some people really get into it. Others reach a point where they are happy with whatever the weight they carry is and leave it at that. Some even add a few things back in.

The thing about ultra-light or lightweight backpacking that I enjoy is that it really brings home to you that it's just walking in the woods. A lot of stuff isn't necessary. I don't need bomb-proof this and high-tech that. I'm not going to war. I'm just taking a walk. Having less gear has increased my confidence, it's brought me closer to nature. Going light has spilled over into my "normal" life, too. Happiness doesn't come from having lots of things. It comes from the experience. Going lighter has helped me see this more tangibly.