The Analysis of Technique vs. What is Good, Right and Just in Given Philosophies [Archive] - WhiteBlaze

twodifferentsocks

10-05-2009, 19:32

I just read this thread describing a young woman's use of the Spot system. (http://www.whitneyportalstore.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/62966/page/1#Post62966)

Back in my day (cue old man voice), we had the The American Canoe Association's "River Safety Report (http://books.google.com/books?id=OmGxPAAACAAJ&dq=%22river+safety+report%22&ei=oVHKSuSjMon4zASMnoWfBA)" and Seakayaker Magazine's monthly safety analysis (http://www.seakayakermag.com/2006/Aug06/Luhm01.htm) plus their publication "Deep Trouble (http://www.amazon.com/Sea-Kayakers-Deep-Trouble-ebook/dp/B001NAC4W8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254773932&sr=8-3-spell)".

These publications were "safety articles primarily cover kayaking accidents. Their main purpose is education: to enable readers to learn from and avoid the misfortunes of others. Safety articles have two sections: a description of the incident, and an analysis underscoring the significant factors and discussing how to better handle similar situations. We encourage readers to inform us about accidents they’ve heard of or been involved in, and we make every effort to be sensitive to the needs of those involved." (http://www.seakayakermag.com/contrib...guidelines.htm (http://www.seakayakermag.com/contribute/writers_guidelines.htm))

These incident analyses do NOT include stories of the drunk and stupid, where Jim Billy's last words before he died on the river were, "Hold my beer." The incidents in these publications describe the tragedies or near misses of experienced paddlers.

Does the backpacking community have comparable publications?

The reason why I ask, is that I find most UL recommendations incomplete at best and ridiculous at worst. That could be because my apprenticeships were designed based on best practices defined in the early 90's by NOLS. I have grown extremely weary of the empty claims of the necessary "expertise and knowledge" needed for safe, comfortable UL travel. Most UL based recommendations on whiteblaze are without reference to specific evidence, example, trip duration, anticipated weather, actual weather encountered, distance per day, terrain encountered, TIME OF THE YEAR, LOCATION IN THE WORLD, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Most claims are without citation, appear boastful and nearly religious in demeanor. UL recommendations seem designed more to reduce Mankind's overall environmental footprint or the promotion of a dematerialistic society. What on Earth do these concerns have to do with successful and safe backcountry travel? Something else is driving the UL movement besides the joys of a lighter pack. There are philosophical and sociological drivers to this movement that IMO carry far too much weight in the design of technique.

Have UL techniques been properly and carefully vetted in the same fashion described in the publications above? What should I DO to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides freezing to death to gain the necessary 'experience' that many of you claim we collectively lack in abundance. What should I READ to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides the boorish and empty claims saturating this forum and that useless collection of advertisements Backpacker Magazine.

Who collects, analyzes, then promotes best practices these days? It used to be NOLS, but now according to various web forums, their training is considered outdated. HOGWASH!

How many SAR dollars have been invested fine tuning UL techniques?

*ducks*

Mags

10-05-2009, 19:45

I just walk and enjoy my lighter gear.

I'll leave the scientific discussions to those who have time for such things and perhaps less time for walking.

Read this book for a nice, non-gear wonkish view on minimalist techniques:
http://www.amazon.com/Lighten-Up-Complete-Ultralight-Backpacking/dp/0762737344/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254782927&sr=8-4

Go safe.
Be courteous.
Have fun.

Those are the only three "rules" for the outdoors. And how you do that can vary between different people based on experience,
abilities and desired type of trip. Notice I did not mention gear. IT is the least important part in the outdoors. Knowing what to take and how to use your tools is much more important. :)

BTW....speaking of NOLS approved techniques:
http://www.nols.edu/courses/locations/southwest/sw_lightweight_backpacking.shtml

Snowleopard

10-05-2009, 20:13

AMC puts out lists of accidents in the White Mountains, a mix of hiking, climbing and skiing accidents. http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/2009/amc-appalachia-accident-reports-december-2009.cfm
There's also Accidents in North American Mountaineering which is mostly climbing accidents, but some is relevant to hikers. http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/productdetails.cfm?PC=1473

Tinker

10-05-2009, 23:20

Dogwood

10-06-2009, 00:05

SOF, you just posted this under the "Can You Use a Bivy for the High Sierra" thread. Now you added What is Good, Right, and Just in Given Philosophies and started a new thread. I feel as if someone is preaching from the pulpit to get me to realize their church is the best. Kinda sounds like the intro to Superman - fighting for truth, justice, and the American way.

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 01:20

What should I READ to gain scientific confidence in UL design? Besides the boorish and empty claims saturating this forum and that useless collection of advertisements Backpacker Magazine.

Try looking at www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com).

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266 (http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=1b6130dcff0e1cda3cfe107bb1218c 0c&entry_id=6266)

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=f75f18070a41ae1e7d4e6c364069e8 a6&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

She just took a walk and enjoyed her lighter gear.

Maybe the scientific discussions should have existed for her to make an informed decision.

Do you guys feel any sense of responsibility for your words at all? Or do weakly worded and generalized disclaimers suffice?

When I sold a whitewater kayak to a new boater, I made sure that the man did not leave the store without a helmet...PERIOD. Before he left the store, he was given all of the connections, phone numbers, schedules and information, every opportunity he would ever need to safely enjoy the sport. This was not merely a demonstration of due diligence for liability purposes. I did it because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is serious **** gentlemen. I find the Laissez-faire attitude of the suggestions and advice provided by the members of this forum disturbing.

And that's about it. Take care guys.

drastic_quench

10-06-2009, 03:15

The AT is a walk in the woods -- woods that are within a day's drive of 2/3 of the entire US population. I've seen smaller safety nets at trapeze school.

Stay warm,
stay hydrated,
eat something,
and follow the clearly posted white blazes at a pace of your choosing.

These are all startling simple objectives. Why so serious? Where's the pile of hiker corpses whose final journal entries lament their quilt and tarp choice?

NOLS is great, but the AT isn't vertical mountaineering, white water rafting, or an exotically remote safari. Old women, six-year-olds, the morbidly obese, amputees, and a blind man have thru'd. All these folks managed to hike their own hike - whether they used bomb proof mountaineering tents that can hang off of the side of a sheer rock face, or cowboy camped with a shower curtain.

I'm certainly not standing in the way of any scientific surveys, but the situation is not remotely dire. Browse the non-scientific articles on Whiteblaze and you'll find sensible, tested, and middle-of-the-road advice. So it's weird to so earnestly question the quality of hiker advice here.

Advice, let's remember, for how to walk in the woods.

Mags

10-06-2009, 03:29

\
And that's about it. Take care guys.

Notice I said minimalist. Yet, you keep on talking GEAR.

Those that walk the walk (in a literal sense) know that gear discussion is bunk.

Take what you need to be safe and comfortable for *YOU.* I readily admit that comes with experience.

Generalist perhaps. But it is also true.

Those who talk about "scientific" methods of backpacking perhaps may not have hiked as much. ;)

Egads

10-06-2009, 07:31

Discomfort is a good teacher and a rational mind grounds you.

Anyone attempting to hike SUL in adverse conditions should give thoughtful consideration to the gear in their pack & their experience base before heading out.

It would be foolish to head out in single digits with a 3-season bag because it weighs 16 oz. That is not what the SUL philosophy is about. I think that you just don't get it sof.

Marta

10-06-2009, 07:51

Ignorance regularly gets people into trouble no matter how heavy or light their packs. There's the annual spring break rescues in the Smokies where college students wearing jeans and sweatshirts get caught in a snowstorm, get soaked to the skin and hypothermic.

The simple point of view is to say that blue jeans are not sensible hiking attire, but a small army of thru-hikers wore them in the 70s. You just have to learn to manage your hike so you don't get into trouble.

Same thing with any kind of gear--light, heavy, or in between.

Different Socks

10-06-2009, 10:24

Tipi Walter

10-06-2009, 11:04

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266 (http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=1b6130dcff0e1cda3cfe107bb1218c 0c&entry_id=6266)

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=f75f18070a41ae1e7d4e6c364069e8 a6&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

She just took a walk and enjoyed her lighter gear.

Maybe the scientific discussions should have existed for her to make an informed decision.

Do you guys feel any sense of responsibility for your words at all? Or do weakly worded and generalized disclaimers suffice?

When I sold a whitewater kayak to a new boater, I made sure that the man did not leave the store without a helmet...PERIOD. Before he left the store, he was given all of the connections, phone numbers, schedules and information, every opportunity he would ever need to safely enjoy the sport. This was not merely a demonstration of due diligence for liability purposes. I did it because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is serious **** gentlemen. I find the Laissez-faire attitude of the suggestions and advice provided by the members of this forum disturbing.

And that's about it. Take care guys.

Hey Sof, thanks for the great link, it gives me a whole bunch of stuff to copy and take out with me to read on my next backpacking trip.

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with SOF. There are those of you that can and do go out to the woods with a UL state of mind. But too many are preaching this way of bping as "the" way of doing it now for the better of comfort, speed, distance, etc, etc.
That is a very dangerous way of going about it. Why do you think I posted for some help in trying to understand the UL concept? Even with all my years and miles of bping, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon just b/c so many of you say it is so much better.
Suggestions and ideas are ok, as long as the teller and the taker and going about it in a "I'll try it that way method. But w/o proper education or a class of some sort, I wouldn't tell someone to start right off the bat to go out and do UL. And yes, I do know they offer some classesfor UL.

Most of us carry lightweight gear even though our packs may weigh 50 lbs or more, maybe even 75lbs. The sleeping bag I carry is rated for minus 15F and is 3.5lbs and is very light for its rating though no ULer would carry it. Very few backpackers carry "heavy" stuff, like iron skillets or a small library of books or canned foods or hatchets/axes or gallon glass jugs of apple juice, etc.

Humans are basically lazy, and no one wants to carry a lot of weight up a 3,000 foot climb or for 20 miles along a trail. And so we come to the UL philosophy which combines the need for speed and high mileage days with a very light kit. For the most part, UL backpacking only works with frequent resupply of fuel and food, or with short trips where food weight is not a consideration, like a weekend trip. Three days in the woods requires very little food. I'd like to see backpackers pull longer trips w/o resupply, in the 15 day range, and then see how they address their need for a 15 or 20 lb pack when the food load alone would be 30lbs, and do so in the middle of winter.

UL BANDWAGON
Commercially, the UL bandwagon has taken off and is big business. This in itself is not bad, though many newbs get bombarded with the UL mantra and mindset early on and think it's the highest way. I've seen several examples of backpackers with not enough gear for whatever conditions they are facing, whether it be a sudden blizzard in late April or a frozen hammock at zero degrees with high winds or a leaking bivy sack. Sometimes they refuse to carry the proper clothing for an extended stay in changing conditions, especially at higher elevations.

TOOLS FOR THE JOB
Often people say, "you need different tools for different jobs", like you need a four season tent for blizzards on high mountains and a Tarptent for 3 seasons on the AT. Or a tarp in the summer along with a light sleeping bag, and then a beefier arrangement in the winter with a thicker sleeping pad. The problem with the "Tool" theory is the same with a real tool when working on a house. We go to the roof with a hammer but we may find we need a screwdriver and a saw, too. It's the same with backpacking and herein lies the UL dilemma: Conditions change. And a piece of gear that could qualify as a "multi-tool" for the backpacker is usually heavier than a specialized "tool".

I knew two backpackers who planned a thruhike of the BMT last year and they had their standard light-to-UL load. Somewhere around 5,000 feet after leaving a river valley they hit snow on April 30 and canceled out their trip. So, what tool worked in the valley in warm weather didn't work later up high in a sudden cold snap and snowstorm. Long backpacking trips with no town visits or resupply require more versatile equipment, stuff that can handle the changing conditions of mountain weather, and stuff that is therefore heavier.

A good proof of this is to see the AT thruhikers on Trail Journals who start out in January or February and then get caught in a typical winter windstorm with snow and cold. When it gets to zero or 10 below, most of them high tail it to a town for the duration and wait it out. Why? Cause their tools are too specialized for the conditions and therefore limit their freedom, yet they are convinced that a lighter pack is better.

Jonnycat

10-06-2009, 11:38

Each individual is responsible for his or her personal safety.

The only way to ensure one's personal safety is through experience and common sense.

The Weasel

10-06-2009, 12:09

Well, SOF has maybe 20 or so posts on WB, and finds people's opinions here "disturbing." And he's upset that we don't have "citation" to everything, and no one repository of what is, under his definition, "good". And others here don't meet his expectations for what posts should contain.

Gosh. Didn't know ATTRoll sold him the site.

Well, folks, backpacking isn't really rocket science or, for that matter, practicing law. For either of those, "citations" make sense so you don't blow yourself up or send your client up the river for life on a jaywalking charge. For backpacking, it's kind of basic: Bring what you want, keeping in mind what you need. For ultralight backpacking, bring less of it. If you made a mistake and brought/left behind something that you needed/didn't need, remember that.

And share your experiences, even if SOF doesn't like the way you do.

TW

sheepdog

10-06-2009, 12:23

If you made a mistake and brought/left behind something that you needed/didn't need, remember that.

And share your experiences, even if SOF doesn't like the way you do.

TW
Good advice. I always make a note of something someone else is using that I like and things I wish I would have brought with me. I then add the note to my gear list. I forget less stuff that way.

Mags

10-06-2009, 12:42

I knew two backpackers who planned a thruhike of the BMT last year and they had their standard light-to-UL load.

I started Feb 12th with my standard kit.

Again, you all talk about GEAR.

I prefer experience, knowledge and adaptability over gear wonkery talk.

If you do not have the experience, knowledge and adaptability, you are going to SOL no matter what SOF states. ;)

Finally, as an aside, while you talk about your extended stays please be honest: They are basecamp trips in the low woods with lowish mileage hikes throw in. A different mindset than say walking through the Sierra for 11 days w/o resupply. :)

Lets also be honest..we can eliminate this, and other stupid gear focused discussions by stating the obvious:

Take what you need for your own personal comfort and safety levels.

...and that my friends is the truth. For everyone it is different.

Still not sure of the point of the OP. Seems like he is pissing into the wind. But he is not even aiming.

Jester2000

10-06-2009, 12:53

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with SOF. There are those of you that can and do go out to the woods with a UL state of mind. But too many are preaching this way of bping as "the" way of doing it now for the better of comfort, speed, distance, etc, etc.
That is a very dangerous way of going about it. Why do you think I posted for some help in trying to understand the UL concept? Even with all my years and miles of bping, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon just b/c so many of you say it is so much better.
Suggestions and ideas are ok, as long as the teller and the taker and going about it in a "I'll try it that way method. But w/o proper education or a class of some sort, I wouldn't tell someone to start right off the bat to go out and do UL. And yes, I do know they offer some classesfor UL.

Well, you make a good point. Nobody, in my opinion, should be "jumping on the bandwagon" based on the experiences of others. I don't know of many on this site who would claim that their experiences are a good substitute for personal experience. But (and I could be misreading it) that doesn't seem to be SOF's point, or if it is SOF isn't very good at expressing it.

Is it really my responsibility to teach an adult that they shouldn't necessarily believe or trust or highly value everything they read on the internet?

Um, no.

Personally, I advocate starting out with a pretty heavy pack. I tell prospective thru-hikers to take everything they think they'll need, because they can always get rid of it if they decide they don't want it. And that, for the most part, is how the majority of UL people on this site have come to be UL people -- through personal experience, gradually paring down and changing gear as they came to realize what they did and didn't need.

So when SOF says this in another thread:

That woman in the Sierras didn't have a chance to reject poor advice. That's the point.

The internet is full of poor suggestions, without citation, without evidence and levied by self made experts whose resume has no independent certification. And this forum is a fountainhead.

I have to disagree. She had a chance to reject bad advice. She took advice from people she didn't know, and jumped on a bandwagon she was unprepared to ride on. That's HER bad judgement. And if you read the article, I find it worth noting that the one piece of gear that caused all of the problems -- a SPOT device -- is the one piece of gear she mentions that most UL people I know wouldn't carry.

And as for this site being a fountainhead of poor suggestions, I'd note that again, any site is going to have people making suggestions that each individual must weigh against what they know about themselves. I should also note that despite this site being apparently awful, it didn't stop SOF from thanking everyone for their great advice in a different thread:

Thanks everyone:) Thanks to this forum, I've got my Early March Base wt to 25 lbs, carrying 'most' of what I want. Including a fancy-dancy bear canister so I NEVER have to hang a bag again! And the raccoons won't eat my Wheaties on the ICW anymore! Yay!

Why the change in heart? Who knows? Perhaps a raccoon got into SOF's Wheaties.

pyroman53

10-06-2009, 15:02

The Trail Journal entries from the woman in the Sierras details a few of mistakes made unrelated to the type and weight of her gear. We’ve all been there, tired, wet and cold and faced with quickly getting camp set up in order to warm up. If you pull it off, in a few minutes you’re in your sleeping bag and all is warm and cozy. In her case, apparently she waited too long and was too cold and too inexperienced to pull it off. That’s where experience comes in – to know when to bail and have the ability to pull it off – regardless of what gear you’re carrying. Sometimes its a fine line and I know I'm still learning.

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 16:30

Well, you make a good point. Nobody, in my opinion, should be "jumping on the bandwagon" based on the experiences of others.

I think that's why I am so pissed off. I found myself jumping on the bandwagon. I find myself today, with the opportunity to take that journey I've always dreamed about. So I began researching...and what did I find? I found that in the last 10 years, nearly everything that I was taught, nearly everything that I read in the 90's, had been improved upon.

Techniques had advanced greatly. Widespread enthusiasm for the new ways was EVERYWHERE. Every forum, website, manufacturer catered to a new breed of traveler, the ultralight backpacker. There must be something to it, I told myself. Just look at how many people go on an on and on about it!

So I prostrated myself as a newcomer, admitted what I knew to be true may not be true. I made my best effort to become as good a student as possible, a follower. I prepared to bathe in fresh, new ideas, it was exciting!

The UL strategy seemed seductive and facinating. Every move in the wilderness, could be micro managed, increasing the efficiency and effectivenness of every movement. Like some complex algebraic equation.

The style I was taught was clunky. Every contigency was listed, then strategy, technique and hardware was allocated to compensate.

The style I was taught was overkill. Best practices, first developed by hardcore high alpine mountaineers, then trickled down to backpackers in say North Carolina, where many were barely relevant.

But today, it seemed that backpackers had finally formed a voice for themselves. Backpackers had created their own highly efficient and effective techniques, their own language, thank you very much mountaineers. We have no need to dine at the scraps of the alpine climbing table. Nor will we be slaves to the Backpacker magazine marketing machines either.

This new conciousness, or UL movement (as best I could defined it), was powerful, everywhere. And in the beginning, just 21 posts ago, and hundreds of hours of research later I have determined that the movement may be form over substance. BTW-SOF stands for Substance Over Form

I guess I'm angry at myself, for getting swept away with the energy of it all.

By prostrating myself as a beginner, fully discounting my knowledge and experiences in the hope that this great wave of energy behind the UL movement HAD TO BE THE BEES KNEES, I found little evidence outside of puffery. Evidence. Evidence is the result of case analyses. And I have found very few.

In the end, I'm going to my own hike, but to the beginners like that woman in the sierras, she didn't have another body of knowledge like myself to compare these new concepts.

I'm embarrassed at myself, for believing the hype.

/sorry, I am the most melodramatic dude I have ever met, but its true, I feel like a horses ass. I have enjoyed lightening my load a bit though, but the more I read the more I imagine how many people are going to learn the hard way. I feel bad for that girl. She didn't have to experience that and neither did her parents.

EPIRBs have always caused trouble. Oh my God. I just googled EPIRB, and their not called that anymore. Their called GPIRBs. I am outdated!

Mags

10-06-2009, 16:44

I don't see any form or substance in these posts. :eek:

I prefer the term minimalist myself. Less emphasis on gear and more on knowledge and technique (and love of the mountains)

Norm Clyde carried tons of books, pots and god-knows-what else.

John Muir carried a long wool coat, a loaf of bread and tea.

Yet, both are revered as Sierra legends.

...and no one gives a sh** what gear they used.

People who discuss gear instead of the love of the mountains are frankly boring. I'd hate to run into you on the trail. You'd give me a lecture like that guy I met in the San Juans. :D (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9807&highlight=dana+designs) (Post 4)

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 17:32

PRELUDE AND CASE STUDY: Here's a prelude to my ramblings above, before I even knew the term "Ultralight". Last year, a buddy of mine was in a jam, and couldn't fill a guide spot for a trip he was involved with. They needed a guide to lead a dozen 11th graders on a four day trip through Pisgah National Forest. There were 10 other groups from this private high school, all from Raleigh. I was in between projects at the time, but had never guided before, except for my own trips with friends. In general, it was great fun, but here was my introduction to UL arrogance:

Example 1: Night 1, we camped in a campsite large enough to accommodate our large group, but the area was bad with biting flies. My Co-leader asked to share my tent, opting out of her tarp. I felt proud, sort off. It seemed after years of slogging away in the sugar mines of commerce, that I still had sound and relevant backcountry skills. It felt good to be in the woods, and felt better to best this young woman. She was a real pro after all, looked the part too. I gladly shared it, I though I might get laid out of the deal:)

Example 2: I heard from 3 other guides, one of them my friend and the co-leader of my group, that "they don't make 'em like that anymore" in reference to my pack, a 18 or so year old NF internal frame. Day 3, the stitching and fabric in her brand new pack disintegrated, causing the frame rods to poke through the back. I inspected it, and quietly noted to myself that a lightweight ripstop backpack is not for me.

Example 3: A student had evidently put on some perfume, or lotion or something, but she was being absolutely terrorized by flies, and was nearly hysterical. My co-leader "does this **** for a living" expert, offered no solutions. I produced a head net, which the student quickly declined, saying she would take the flies over looking stupid. I remember the look my co-leader gave me when I produced the head net. It was one of a string of solutions I had provided, that she could not. After all, it was early May in NC, why would anyone carry a head net? After a particularly traumatic experience with yellow flies in the Chesapeake bay years before, I never went without one. But why the bother of deciding to have it, it's just a headnet, not a television.

Example 4: Neither of us (the other guide and I) had time to scout the route before hand, so neither of us knew EXACTLY where the trail heads were. I agreed to hike 2 or 3 miles ahead after the kids fell asleep to find them. Her torch lacked the capacity to navigate in the dark. Oh she could walk, but she couldn't see far enough to spot reflective trail markers in the dark. So I say her torch lacked the capacity to navigate. This is of course, after she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen. A Petzyl Duo was the shiznit in my day, but to her it was simply ****. I say her torch was ****, because if one of those kids needed to be evacuated, her lamp lacked the capacity to do so safely. Unacceptable.

I spent the entire week pretrip and posttrip cleanup getting needled and questioned by my fellow guides for the state of my approach and gear. It confused me...my approach was cutting edge in 1997. Why were they going on and on about it? They went on about how heavy it all must be, but I didn't even notice the weight. Didn't even notice, after all we were on a backpacking trip. We were supposed to have stuff in our backpacks.

That was my first experience with the UL drones. If I wasn't such a head-suck, follower-slave, I should've recognized it for what it was, before making an ass out of myself here today.

Jester2000

10-06-2009, 17:35

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

Mags

10-06-2009, 17:39

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

Esp when he makes comments like this:

she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen.\

:eek:

Jester2000

10-06-2009, 17:44

Esp when he makes comments like this:

she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen.\

:eek:

Hahaha! SOF -- we're just having fun. You do have good points, and I've posted similar ideas in the past, particularly in regards to the inexperienced going UL gear-wise when they don't know what they don't know.

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 17:49

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

You got it! She was freaky hot too. Long, wonderful raft-guide-tan legs. You know the kind:)

chief

10-06-2009, 17:50

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.You know what they say, "big headlamp...small pecker"!

Mags

10-06-2009, 17:54

Hahaha! SOF -- we're just having fun. You do have good points, and I've posted similar ideas in the past, particularly in regards to the inexperienced going UL gear-wise when they don't know what they don't know.

Aye..but my argument is that is NOT about gear. It is about people being inexperienced and not being prepared regardless of the gear. And blaming gear of any stripe ignores the real reason why people get into trouble: Not doing their research, not having the knowledge and getting themselves into trouble beyond their ability levels.

Heavy gear..light gear..or in between.

And the OP (lets call him Sock Puppet..maybe?) keeps on saying that these people are being lead into something that is dangerous. But it dangerous because well..."Not doing their research, not having the knowledge and getting themselves into trouble beyond their ability "
levels. "

As I said, I don't see much form or substance in the rants. What is the point? People will go off unprepared into the woods? Well..JHC..what an insight!

Ain't nothing to do with gear. It is lack of knowledge and experience (and in the leaders case..arrogance).

As in other threads, I think I'll stop while I am ahead..I am doing something I tend to do on here and in real life: Repeating myself. :o

I'll just leave with this sentence of gear wisdom from my trip report earlier today:

For those hoping to find a detailed description of the gear I took during the shoulder season hiking…go elsewhere. :) Backpacking is not about what gear you take, what titanium widget works best or if I footnote my gear choices with the proper attributes from the gear manufacturer. I just hike with the gear that I know works for me. :p

(OK..I did take some apple brandy. Made in New Jersey. One of the oldest distillers in the country! (http://www.lairdandcompany.com/index2.htm)That’s MY kind of thorough research. I am qualified to endorse it because I think it tastes good.. ;) )

Jester2000

10-06-2009, 18:03

Mags, I agree. There's nothing in the description of the trouble the girl got herself into to suggest that she would have made better decisions if she had had different gear.

And I've already mentioned how I feel about weighing personal experience against advice from unknown people.

People make bad decisions all the time. Some of those involve gear. Not all of those involve weight.

Tipi Walter

10-06-2009, 18:08

That's a pretty good story and one disproving the old adage: "If you don't use a piece of gear every day, don't take it."

It's hard to make miles and carry a lot of weight, this is just the reality of backpacking. And if you read many Trail Journals you'll see the strong tendency of "expert backpackers" telling the newbs to lighten their loads or else. This often happens near an outside hook-scale where the reality of pack weight hits home, with snickers from the observers. And let's face it, if you want to get from Georgia to Maine in the prescribed time, the weight must go.

In the old days(i.e. 1970s Eric Ryback), no one cared what you carried except yourself, there wasn't the commercial zeal(and testosterone-fed cutting edge types)to study ALL THINGS LIGHT as there is today. In one of his trail journal reports, Ryback mentioned loading up his pack with 20 days worth of food for a section of the AT he was thruhiking. He wrote that his 65lbs made him feel safe and he liked the security. There were people who shared the trail with him at that time who had very light packs and I'm thinking of people like Andrew Giger and Jim Shattuck. (Howard Bassett carried a boy scout canvas frameless Yucca pack with no hipbelt).

Nowadays in the age of gossamer dyneema and titanium widgets, it's considered avant-garde and upper class to have the lightest, latest stuff, a case in point is the near-crazed lemming rush-to-the-sea NeoAir hypnosis. $150 for a 9oz pad when a new $29 pad with an even higher Rvalue weighs only 6 more ounces. It's partly an ego-puffing fascination with the latest names and specs, who has the lightest sheet of tyvek, what's in the works for bubble wrap, etc. What I can't figure out is, why do these people even keep their teeth when all 32 could be pulled and thereby they could save several ounces of bothersome weight. Just eat gruel.

The Weasel

10-06-2009, 18:08

Move the thread to the humor forum.

TW

Tipi Walter

10-06-2009, 18:23

Move the thread to the humor forum.

TW

What, for one sentence?

rickb

10-06-2009, 18:27

Its a good thread.

JoeHiker

10-06-2009, 18:37

I find your laissez-fair criticism equally disturbing. This woman acted stupidly. You are apparently criticizing all of ultralight because of a foolish woman who made foolish decisions. Including continuing to hike on around 10,000 feet in the middle of a snowstorm in terrain she knew was going to remain around that altitude. Including not knowing apparently how to set up her own gear.

I don't take responsibilty for foolish people. Put this woman in the same situation with a 5 pound tent and you get the same dangerous moment.

Tipi Walter

10-06-2009, 18:41

Yahtzee

10-06-2009, 18:52

Not sure what the problem with UL hiking is here. I would recommend going light to any newcomer. Why carry a 5 pound pack when a Go-Lite Jam, which weighs a little over 1 pd., carries up to 30 comfortably? Why carry a 3.5 pd. sleeping bag when you can, if you can afford it, carry a much lighter down bag? Why carry a 3-4pd tent when you can carry a tarptent? UL refers to gear and choices. If someone takes out too little clothing, that isn't UL's fault, it's the fault of the hiker.

And, IMO, UL hiking is much safer than heavier hiking. Easier on the body. Easier to hike longer miles. Plus, being burdened with a heavy pack can be a real drag on the psyche and can lead to poor decisions. This is all biased opinion, of course, but having carried a 40 pd pack and now carrying my 15pd pack, I say the lighter pack is safer.

UL is the way to go. Unless you really enjoy a particular piece of gear (for me its the MSR Dromedary with metal grommets) it just makes sense to carry lighter gear.

Poor decision making and UL hiking are in no way related.

Jack Tarlin

10-06-2009, 19:00

Yahtzee

10-06-2009, 21:03

Actually, considering how many hikers I've encountered who put themselves at risk thru poor decision making in an attempt to go lightweight or ultra-lightweight, (i.e. carrying inappropriate or insufficient gear), I'd say these two subjects are very much related.

This totally discounts the numerous hikers who safely and enjoyably hike UL. Hikers with heavy packs make poor decisions and so do UL hikers. Has nothing to do with UL hiking, merely those who ineffectively do so. Maybe they attribute it to UL philosophy but the poor decision is theirs and theirs alone.

However, if it is the case that UL hiking is the cause of certain predicaments, to be fair, a whole helluva lot of knee problems should rightly be attributed to hikers' who fail to judiciously select their gear. To me though, it is the individual hiker's judgment that needs criticizing not a hiking philosophy.

Alligator

10-06-2009, 21:25

Concerning the woman's account linked in the opening post, I agree with several of the posters who think it was more mistakes in what she did and not the gear really. She definitely had a case of the umbles. The sandals though were probably a bad equipment choice, but I am not so familiar with the weather in that area.

1. She should have known how to set up her tarp without a fancy knot. I can set mine up pyramid style with a piece of rope having just loops on either end, along with the stakes and a trekking pole.

2. She ought to have carried a backup fire option, negligible weight really.

3. She didn't mention eating. It seems like she didn't have the internal fuel to keep warm.

4. While wool will still insulate when wet, keeping on her damp/wet wool pants was likely sucking heat out that she desparately needed. If you have enough stuff, sometimes you can dry a piece of clothing in camp under other dry gear but you have to make sure you have enough internal heat to do so.

I learned 3 and 4 the hard way as well, and have set up my tarp somewhat poorly a time or two.

She had a decent set of warm clothes plus a full rain shell, and a bivy along with the tarp.

Dances with Mice

10-06-2009, 21:33

I know a guy who carried a ton of ultralight gear.

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 22:16

Mags, this isn't a gear related post. I thought we were talking methods or techniques or approaches. Methods require procedure and hardware. The discussion of methods must include the discussion of the hardwear, but that's not all of it.

I'm talking about methods, and their confusion with the philosophy that begat the methods. Methods can be measured and improved.
Plan
Do
Check
Act

The PDCA cycle is one way to improve methods. The military has a saying that's cool too although I forget it.

The philosophy, the rising chant of the masses to Go Light has been confused as a method.

My anger came from this: I pictured that young Co-leader I worked with last summer as the one nearly freezing to death on the PCT. It hurt me, personally, to read her journal entry, to see the look on her face (check the pictures). Endlessly optimistic, capable, young, strong but guided by principles that were NOT fulled explained, and in my anger I took it out on this forum, where I felt many of the principles that led her astray were also not fully explained. I felt bad for this girl, and her family.

Mags, your words have weight. Your resume is impressive and people listen when you speak. I do, I did (pre rant). You have the power to lead the ignorant and stupid astray, but big deal right, these people are going to **** up anyway. But this girl was not ignorant or stupid, nor was the girl I co-led that trip with. The girl in the Sierras was dynamic, intelligent, full of life and that life was nearly taken from her.

My argument and frustration is not about gear, it's about groupthink. The crux of my argument is "guilt through association", I know... it's weak. I struck out in anger, shock at what I read. The girl was not wise, but I felt she was led astray.

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266 (http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=1b6130dcff0e1cda3cfe107bb1218c 0c&entry_id=6266)

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJournal.php?sid=f75f18070a41ae1e7d4e6c364069e8 a6&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

We are responsible for our words in this life.

twodifferentsocks

10-06-2009, 22:38

dreamsoftrails

10-06-2009, 23:36

When I sold a whitewater kayak to a new boater, I made sure that the man did not leave the store without a helmet...PERIOD. Before he left the store, he was given all of the connections, phone numbers, schedules and information, every opportunity he would ever need to safely enjoy the sport. This was not merely a demonstration of due diligence for liability purposes. I did it because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is serious **** gentlemen. I find the Laissez-faire attitude of the suggestions and advice provided by the members of this forum disturbing.

And that's about it. Take care guys.

the only way to safely kayak is to not kayak. plenty of kayakers take blows to the head that even with helmets on render them unconscious. do you tell your customers of such incidents??

to put it short, the majority of UL'ers do not parade around in minnesota in winter. you found an extreme example of ignorance.

keep in mind this forum is about the AT, many will assume that we are talking traditional three season thru hike conditions.

if you are curious about UL, try it out in the warmer months. i am afraid backcountry camping is not much of a science, and if it is, its a science of experience. plain and simple.

and the fact that you referenced backpacker magazine as a source of UL gear means that you still don't know what you are complaining about yet.

dreamsoftrails

10-06-2009, 23:46

sbhikes

10-07-2009, 00:43

Most people who hike the PCT do so with lightweight gear. You focus on one woman who got cold and used her SPOT inappropriately ignoring the fact that most people who make it to Canada warm, safe and dry do so with lightweight gear.

Gear isn't always to blame when things go wrong, nor is it always the reason for success.

By the way, I never go anywhere without my headnet. It seems to be those boy scouts who never have one. But you can be sure they've got a couple extra pairs of jeans and a gigantic multi-tool for chopping wood in their packs.

twodifferentsocks

10-07-2009, 00:43

and the fact that you referenced backpacker magazine as a source of UL gear means that you still don't know what you are complaining about yet.

Dude. What are you talking about?

i don't get it?!

pal, when ignorant people choose to imitate people on a discussion board for a thousand mile outdoor hike, no one is responsible but their own self.

it doesn't matter what they are carrying.

When people on a discussion board that have actually taken a thousand mile outdoor hike choose to open their mouths, they are responsible for their words.

Dogwood

10-07-2009, 01:34

I'm beginning to smell a troll.

garlic08

10-07-2009, 02:01

....How many SAR dollars have been invested fine tuning UL techniques?

I don't believe it's a problem that requires investment and/or study. I think I've heard that most SAR dollars go toward transporting slips and falls and searching for lost day hikers. I doubt there's much interest in how well a hiker can set up a shelter in a high wind, for instance, or in what material the shelter is made of. The typical SAR personnel would probably be thrilled that a hiker is actually carrying some kind of shelter and is prepared in any way for being out overnight.

Sorry to hear you had some questionable experience and advice recently. (Personally, I shudder at some of the advice handed out free on this forum.) By the way, I couldn't imagine a multi-day trip with a dozen 11th-graders and three other guides without something going wrong and some personality conflicts. But it's wonderful that there are saints out there with the patience to take the kids out.

Mags

10-07-2009, 03:45

when you speak. I do, I did (pre rant). Y

Rather than respond to your insulting tirade (leading the stupid and ignorant astray? Gee..thanks!), I'll give you my Mom's pumpkin bread recipe.

Much better than getting in a pointless discussion with a guy whose point I still don't understand...an only seems to be seeking to get me further into a discussion, that quite frankly, I no longer want a part of.

Pumpkin Bread

A “quick bread” my Mom makes. A delicious dessert that seems to go well with Fall. The smell of cinnamon and nutmeg always reminds me of the cool, crisp, days of a New England Autumn that I grew up with.

Ingredients
3 ½ cups flour
4 eggs, large
1 cup oil
2/3 cup water
1 cup walnuts
1 cup raisins
1 can pumpkin
2 tsps baking powder
½ tsp nutmeg
1 ½ tsps salt
1 ½ tsps cinnamon
3 cups sugar

1.Simple, really. Mix all ingredients together thoroughly. I usually throw in the raisins and walnuts last
2.Mom would use coffee cans for this recipe! This recipe makes 3 “coffee can” loaves of pumpkin bread. Simply coat (w/ Pam, Crisco, butter, etc.) can. Spoon in mixture. Bake for 1 hr at 350F

This is really a great recipe. One I make for the moonlight hikes I lead this time of the year. Serve with a ratio of 1 to 3 spiced rum to cider. Add in cinnamon sticks and some orange slices. Place in thermos. Good stuff.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 04:56

Really all this discussion boils down to the boy scout motto: be prepared...

You can carry every piece of kit known to man and if you don't know what you are doing you will end up getting SAR called to come extract you.

There is nothing inherently unsafe about the UL mentality just the application there of. The UL packlist for someone heading into the Canadian Rockies in December is clearly not going to be the same as someone strolling through the Georgian woods in May.

There is no magic weight that defines UL across the board for backpacking. Sorry folks I've read all those posts and articles that try to define these things and just based on my statement above you can see I find the idea of "X pounds total is UL" complete bunk. Maybe on a trail by trail/season by season basis you can define things that way but no general number is going to work.

UL is a mind set, some folks cut the handle from their toothbrush or drill holes in the handles of their titanium spoons so they can save a gram here and there while others like me go with a slightly under rated sleeping bag--I like sleeping cold--but would never consider cutting the handle from my toothbrush. Sure some would say: "well what if you get an unseasonable cold snap--your bag could get you in trouble..." That is true but I also know I can set up camp in certain areas and do other "tricks" to extend the temperature range of my sleeping system to get through it--I also know where the heck I am so if it gets too bad I can bail if need be. I know my gear, my limits and my situation--that is the key to UL "safety".

I do think there is a bandwagon effect---everyone wants to talk gear because you can by gear. It's tangible and quick. However what it really boils down to is what your limits are.

I think we all are UL backpackers in that sense. Even those hardcore-handleless-toothbrush wielding folks carry a few grams of otherwise useless comfort stuff--a book to read or something. I doubt many of them are purely spartan/utilitarian about everything they put in the pack. They hike at their comfort level. We all hike at our comfort level or we don't enjoy it.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 05:07

By the way, I never go anywhere without my headnet. It seems to be those boy scouts who never have one. But you can be sure they've got a couple extra pairs of jeans and a gigantic multi-tool for chopping wood in their packs.

no just one change of clothes in case it gets cold and they get wet--not jeans either--who the frack wears jeans?:rolleyes:

Check on the big multi-tool:o

Most of us don't to a head net we prefer the smell and taste of DEET--have you ever eaten what a scout cooks--the DEET is probably not only better for you but certainly better tasting.:D

Jester2000

10-07-2009, 10:51

This is really a great recipe. One I make for the moonlight hikes I lead this time of the year. Serve with a ratio of 1 to 3 spiced rum to cider. Add in cinnamon sticks and some orange slices. Place in thermos. Good stuff.[/COLOR]

I'd like to point out here that Mags is leading the stupid and ignorant astray. The ratio should be 1:1.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 11:44

I'd like to point out here that Mags is leading the stupid and ignorant astray. The ratio should be 1:1.

Drink your own drink man!!!

Like UL backpacking your alcohol to filler ratio is a matter of taste/comfort:D

Tipi Walter

10-07-2009, 12:10

I think we all are UL backpackers in that sense. Even those hardcore-handleless-toothbrush wielding folks carry a few grams of otherwise useless comfort stuff--a book to read or something. I doubt many of them are purely spartan/utilitarian about everything they put in the pack. They hike at their comfort level. We all hike at our comfort level or we don't enjoy it.

I wish I could remember a website I saw recently and copied to read for a recent backpacking trip. It was partly hilarious and partly mind-numbing. He ordered all his clothing one size smaller to save in weight.

dreamsoftrails

10-07-2009, 12:13

Dude. What are you talking about?
my point exactly.

When people on a discussion board that have actually taken a thousand mile outdoor hike choose to open their mouths, they are responsible for their words.
to what extent? in what manners are they 'responsible'?

are you suggesting that if someone on this board, an AT board, recommends a gear list, and some know nothing takes that gear to minnesota, or the PCT, and freezes their ass off because it is inadequate for that setting or because they don't know how to use it, then that someone is 'responsible' for anything bad that happens?

mudhead

10-07-2009, 12:16

I wish I could remember a website I saw recently and copied to read for a recent backpacking trip. It was partly hilarious and partly mind-numbing. He ordered all his clothing one size smaller to save in weight.

C'mon. I need a laugh on a grim, raw day. Gimme link. Please.

Mags

10-07-2009, 12:23

I'd like to point out here that Mags is leading the stupid and ignorant astray. The ratio should be 1:1.

I meant to say 3:1 actually. Numbs the stupid and ignorant I lead astray much quicker. Thanks for pointing out my error! ;)

Tipi Walter

10-07-2009, 12:23

C'mon. I need a laugh on a grim, raw day. Gimme link. Please.

Let me look thru my old trail journals . . .

twodifferentsocks

10-07-2009, 12:26

"I do, I did (pre rant)."
Sorry Mags,
What I meant to say is "when you speak. I took your advice seriously then as I do now". It came out wrong on paper, but the moderators have not allowed me to edit my posts yet. After I posted it, I read it and it read wrong, but I couldn't fix it. I didn't mean any disrespect.

I will offer a fig recipe instead of a fig leaf, because we just finished preserving about 10 gallons of fresh figs! I was not the leader, I helped.

Ingredients:

6 pounds figs, peeled or unpeeled
6 pounds sugar
3 lemons, very thinly sliced, seeds removed

Preparation:

Wash, drain and stem figs. Pour sugar over figs and let sit overnight. Cook over medium heat until sugar is completely dissolved; reduce to low heat, stirring occasionally to prevent sticking. Add lemon slices. Cover and cook until figs are transparent and the syrup is thick, 2-3 hours. Remove from heat, pack in hot, sterilized jars and seal according to manufacturers directions.
Makes 5 to 6 pints

Tipi Walter

10-07-2009, 12:32

C'mon. I need a laugh on a grim, raw day. Gimme link. Please.

Check it out. There might even be some useful info:
http://www.adventurealan.com/2-4_index.htm

No gloves, no jacket, no toothbrush/paste, no underwear, no toilet paper. What fun.

dreamsoftrails

10-07-2009, 12:52

some folks, and the OP is an obvious example, tend to assert that UL hikers are agressive and evangelical about their methods and ideas.

i tend to see more agressiveness and hostility towards UL hiking than i do from UL hikers putting down the traditional methods.

kinda funny, huh?

twodifferentsocks

10-07-2009, 12:59

to what extent? in what manners are they 'responsible'?

are you suggesting that if someone on this board, an AT board, recommends a gear list, and some know nothing takes that gear to minnesota, or the PCT, and freezes their ass off because it is inadequate for that setting or because they don't know how to use it, then that someone is 'responsible' for anything bad that happens?

I am new to internet forums. Back when I was in the OR industry, the web didn't really exist. People came to the shop, asked me what boat to buy, and I told them. The general public wasn't really empowered like they are now. What that meant was, that I had better know what I'm talking about, or do my best to know, so I did right by them.

I already had a good understanding about how the boats were made, I used to work in the Wilderness Systems factory in High Point, NC in rotomold assembly. That's the only way I could afford to buy a fiberglass seakayak, I went to work for the company. (A beautiful Shenai, BTW).

Later, I went to work in their factory dealership in Greensboro. I found I was good at it...selling boats. And we sold a lot of them. My company, a chain of 2 stores in NC, was a top 10 dealer in Old Town and Wilderness Systems. We sold a lot of boats, all over the country. That meant that my worlds, suggestions, advice would affect a lot of people... and a lot of people listened. My face was in the 1998 Wilderness Systems catalog for Christ's sake, of course people listened.

I'm coming from the responsibility of what we say to beginners concept from a very different perspective than probably most of you.

Are we responsible to an avatar and screen name when it does something stupid? I don't see the screen name, I see their faces.

But, you guys...you ****ing pack of witch burning wolves are right. WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING You're on the internet. You're safe.

Yahtzee

10-07-2009, 13:06

i tend to see more agressiveness and hostility towards UL hiking than i do from UL hikers putting down the traditional methods.

kinda funny, huh?

Well put. If asked, I would certainly recommend UL gear. Other than that I could give two ****s about what someone else is carrying. But, certainly, others have no problem telling me that I am not carrying enough of their precious gear.

Skidsteer

10-07-2009, 13:09

But, you guys...you ****ing pack of witch burning wolves are right. WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING You're on the internet. You're safe.

Some are disagreeing with you is all. Stop the name calling.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 13:11

I'm coming from the responsibility of what we say to beginners concept from a very different perspective than probably most of you.

Are we responsible to an avatar and screen name when it does something stupid? I don't see the screen name, I see their faces.

But, you guys...you ****ing pack of witch burning wolves are right. WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING You're on the internet. You're safe.

I don't read all of that into anytihng I see on any internet forum...

I think almost everyone would agree that the vast majority of folks posting here are posting from their personal experiences. Take me for example I got sick on bad water so I am a fanatic about water treatment--haven't gotten sick again thank you all very much. Weasle is a fanatic about packing out his poo--it works for him. Everything you read on any internet forum you have to take witha grain of salt so to speak. Jsut because I can go intothe woods with a pocket knife and a cliff bar and build a cold fusion reactor out of pinecones and sassafrass leaves does not mean you should attempt the same thinking you are now an expert becasue I showed you some photos or some sort of list--it's what works for me. Sure you can use this information as a guide but you need to adapt everythinig to your experience/skill level.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 13:18

Oh and furthermore anyone that does just take a pack list from the web and head off into to a hazzardous situation without being fully versed in their gear--at least take it out for a few weekend trips--is an idiot and deserves anything that happens to them. It's called natural selection and I think there should be more of it going on. We coddle the retards of the world and all it gets us is another generation of retards....Let them fail and figure crap out for themselves--they will come away stronger and smarter in the end.

John B

10-07-2009, 13:23

I'd like to point out here that Mags is leading the stupid and ignorant astray. The ratio should be 1:1.

It's much worse than that. He didn't specify the type of flour (all purpose, cake, bread, etc), if the walnuts should be halves or crushed, if the raisins are dark or yellow, the type of oil (veggie, canola, peanut), the size of the can of pumpkin, and if the water should be bottled or tap, just to name a few of the oversights and misleading crap he's foisting on beginners. And there's not one d***ed citation, either.

Who is this unnamed suspicions "mom" character, anyway?

People could die out there, ya know!

dreamsoftrails

10-07-2009, 13:30

I'm coming from the responsibility of what we say to beginners concept from a very different perspective than probably most of you.

Are we responsible to an avatar and screen name when it does something stupid? I don't see the screen name, I see their faces.

But, you guys...you ****ing pack of witch burning wolves are right. WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING You're on the internet. You're safe.
you are assuming there is such a thing as 'safe' advice. advice is advice. the only way it can be used safely is if the receiver possesses common sense.

it doesn't matter how great your advice was to your customers. they still could have drowned. i like how you mentioned earlier how you would never let a customer leave the store without a helmet. i posed an interesting question: because many a kayaker has been knocked unconscious even with a helmet on, did you disclose this reality to each customer when you insisted he take the helmet?

you never answered this question.

the so called internet bunch that is touting UL approaches, from my experience, is usually thoughtful enough to disclose to beginners their rationale, the location where they use such approach, what skills help them rely on this gear, etc. etc.

your argument that this info is spewed out like a preacher and not 'responsibly' presented is bogus.

what if i reccommend the safest and most time tested traditional gear to someone, and they go out and freeze in a blizzard. Am I responsible?

Alligator

10-07-2009, 13:31

It's much worse than that. He didn't specify the type of flour (all purpose, cake, bread, etc), if the walnuts should be halves or crushed, if the raisins are dark or yellow, the type of oil (veggie, canola, peanut), the size of the can of pumpkin, and if the water should be bottled or tap, just to name a few of the oversights and misleading crap he's foisting on beginners. And there's not one d***ed citation, either.

Who is this unnamed suspicions "mom" character, anyway?

People could die out there, ya know!People choke all the time:eek:;).

Jester2000

10-07-2009, 13:36

But, you guys...you ****ing pack of witch burning wolves are right. WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING You're on the internet. You're safe.

Since you are new to internet forums, let me give you some advice that will serve you well.

I suggest reading your posts after you write them. Carefully. Ask yourself, "if I were someone else on this forum, would I think that the poster was worth listening to?" Ask, "does this post make me seem crazy?" Ask, "does this post serve my purpose, if my purpose is to convince others?"

Then edit it BEFORE you hit "Submit Reply."

Or not.

Mags

10-07-2009, 13:42

Who is this unnamed suspicions "mom" character, anyway?

(Damn..that was funny!)

Mom..well, she's this small, 5'0" woman (yes..she is 5 ft tall), is never-ending in her quest to have grandchildren (My youngest brother is now my favorite brother. He's having a daughter this Feb.THANKS STEVE! She still said how nice it would be for someone to carry on the last name, though. I am only partially off the hook) , and when I come for a visit, makes a lasagna big enough to feed everyone on this thread. Most of all? She has these super-amazing-terrific-scary powers of Catholic guilt.

Pak-Man

10-07-2009, 13:51

Ok,

Three years ago my wife took me on my first backpacking trip. I had a Timberline 2, a Millet 60's backpack with no hipbelt, and Reboks to just name a few things. I dont know if my 40+ lbs pack made me feel safe? but it did make me tired as hell, fell asleep at 6:30.

I foudn this site, read up, took a liking to some of the things discussed about ultralite techniques. I did my research, and started off slow. I did not believe everything I read, as I new that if my rear got caught out there in bad weather no one here woudl be there to save me. I have personally been in contact with members here about my gearlists, options, and techniques that help me become a more effecient backpacker. As a result of that I have trimmed my pack considerably.

I have that not everyone here does what I would like them to do all the time. I have read threads that have made me question somes ideas, moral, and belief systems. I do not hold them accountable for mine however, and why would anyone want to give someone else that much power of themselves.

Yes peoples words do hold a lot of weight here, but to say that they were someway responsible for a near death situation is obserd. Look into the Go-lite website and all of the hoopla there about extreem Ultra lite theories, and hold them to blame too. Oh and all the cottage industries that drive to make better lighter gear too.

Oh yes and the thousands upon thousands of people that go Ultralite and are resposible enought to listen to themselves when they know their limits. And you should call them out to..

Anyone that goes out into the wilderness ill prepared for anyreason, being that they have the capacity to think for themselves, and ends up in danger because of lack of preperation, is their own fault. And anyone who wants to point the finger at someone who is willing to help people when asked, and offer advise on this forum that can be freely taken or left, should look inward, and ask themselve why the blame game.

life is too short.. go freaking hike...

"dirt"

Dogwood

10-07-2009, 15:29

SOF, I totally agree with you that some go backpacking being irresponsibly unprepared and it can get them into trouble. That can put the welfare of themselves as well as others at risk. Some of that trouble exists because they heeded bad advise from others, whether those others be you(yes, you!), me(yes, me!, I don't even pretend to know everything or what is right for anyone but myself), someone with the UL philosophy, someone who espouses a traditionalists method or form of backpacking, someone that espouses the NOLS way of hiking, someone who comes from a mountaineering backround, carries outrageously heavy, or outrageously light gear, or virtually no gear at all(survivalists). But isn't that the way of the world? Many have varying opinions - Some good, Some bad. If someone decides to take the bad advise isn't that now on the shoulders of those who decided to accept that bad advise? If I make a financial investment based on someone else's advise, whether bad or good, and that investment doesn't pan out do I now go back to that person and say, "you made me lose all my money. It's all your fault. I want my money back." Do we all need a patch, certification, permit, paperwork, proven scientific study conducted, or be supervised or approved by you or some group about our gear or hiking style, method, or philosophy in order to have a successful trek? I think it has been amply illustrated that people will have successful safe hikes doing it in many different ways. Ways in which you seem to be intolerantly annoyed with. I think it has also been amply discussed that your gear, or more specifically the wt. of your gear, IS NOT the Ultimate indicator of a safe hike. Everyone is different and can and will backpack safely, responsibly and successfully doing it different ways or following different philosophies or with different gear. You don't seem to want to accept that. You seem greatly annoyed and intolerant that others can hike effectively doing it a different way than you or your group, but you defend your way of backpacking and the way you have been trained by pointing out some extreme cases of others who have gotten into trouble all because they didn't do it the way you think it should have been done. Let none of us throw up a blank wall of intolerant ignorance. Let's share wisdom. Let us glean insight from all sources. Just because someone goes backpacking without the same degree of preparation as yourself or the group that has trained you believes you should be prepared simply means not every backbacker defines being prepared as the same way you or your group does or is in the same position as you or your group. And, while we certainly agree that the UL hiking philosophy may not be right for everyone you don't really understand it or have read some bad threads or posts. Every successful and accomplished ULer that I know would never set out on a hike totally diregarding or not giving reference to: "trip duration, anticipated weather, actual weather encountered, distance per day, terrain encountered, TIME OF THE YEAR, LOCATION IN THE WORLD, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.", as well as many other factors that I don't think you are ready to hear about. And, anyone who accepts advise from anyone who disregards these factors when giving advise is opening the door to trouble. But, I don't think this is typically the case here on WB as you seem to believe. The overwhelming majority of the threads and posts I have read, whether that advise is coming from someone who espouses the UL philosophy or not, DO consider these factors or at least some of these factors. I also think you might want to reevaluate your statement, "I have grown extremely weary of the empty claims of the necessary "expertise and knowledge" needed for safe, comfortable UL travel." Many of the posts here on this thread and elsewhere on WB, whether those posts be generated by those in the UL community or not, as well as many others in the backpacking community, attest to "expertise and knowledge " being critically essential for a safe and successful backpacking trip. Isn't the possession of "expertise and knowledge" the precise reason why those in NOLS leadership positions are in their positions? It seems like you are having a great deal of annoying anger because someone else's definition of "expertise and knowledge' doesn't coincide with your own.

beakerman

10-07-2009, 16:49

dogwood...next time please hit enter once in a while. Interesting post with valid points but it took me at least 5 reads to get through it....

sbhikes

10-07-2009, 18:30

By the way, the traditionalists do have a lightweight gear list. Here is one from NOLS.
http://www.nols.edu/courses/pdf/rockymtn/lfb_lfb4_el.pdf

This is a sub-30lb gear list that they say is the culmination of a lot of testing and research. I hope this list satisfies sof that going light isn't for crackpots.

I think there are things on the list that I would not need (I burned my bra), but still, even the traditionalists are recommending the same gear as the ultralighters. Maybe they're not as extreme on the lightweight end as the sub-5lb guy who brought no toothbrush or toilet paper, but it's a far cry from their 60-100lb gear lists.

Snowleopard

10-07-2009, 23:24

What I hadn’t noticed before is that my fingers were FREEZING! I couldn’t make my clove hitch or my trucker’s hitch to set up my tent- it just kept collapsing!!! My fingers weren’t working and got so much colder after taking my gloves off to try to make my knots for the tarp.
This woman lacked two things:
1. Knowledge of hypothermia.
2. Sufficient warm clothing and rain gear and knowledge of how to use them to avoid hypothermia.

She was clearly hypothermic from the combination of wetness and dropping temperatures. She let herself get too cold to help herself adequately. People have died in the White Mountains (NH) in similar conditions. Having more gear or more traditional gear (e.g. tent not tarp) would probably not have helped -- she was probably too hypothermic to put up a tent. As somebody mentioned above, eating and drinking sooner would have helped. The AMC winter courses teach you to eat and drink almost constantly in cold conditions (at least at every pause).

Having more clothing might have helped if she had the sense to put it on soon enough-- synthetic puffy jacket or vest or fleece.

The conditions she was in aren't unusual for the AT in New England -- typical hypothermia weather, wet and cold. It didn't really sound like a very extreme weather event. She had a minimalist tarp AND a bivy; she should have been fine with the tarp just wrapped around her, not even set up.

sof, from your post #21 it sounds like you have experience and adequate equipment from the 90's. There's no reason to do a total makeover all at once. Very little of the advances in equipment are major and many of the UL techniques are quite old. An example of a major advance is LED headlamps, but even my old Petzl zoom with spare batteries was under 1 lb (an LED lamp that's better than that is now a couple ounces). Chances are your present equipment would be just fine for winter camping once you add winter bag, pads and clothes.

I worry that many people on the AT, especially in the Presidentials (White Mountains) in summer (other places in early spring, fall or winter) just are not sufficiently prepared and don't have enough knowledge for hypothermia conditions. Here is The Old Fhart's excellent post on hypothermia:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=96956&postcount=24

Jester2000

10-08-2009, 11:14

. . .sof, from your post #21 it sounds like you have experience and adequate equipment from the 90's. There's no reason to do a total makeover all at once.

There's no reason for him to do any makeover of any kind if he doesn't feel like it.

That's the one part of the whole UL thing that I do see, which kind of makes me agree with SOF to a certain extent. There seems to be an assumption that everyone should want to switch to lighter gear. That's not necessarily the case.

And it might not be because the person doesn't know any better, or doesn't have enough money, or doesn't have the wherewithall to make their own gear. Many people who go lightweight and are happy doing so assume that everybody will be as happy as they are, and though I don't think of it as religious, there is a certain proselytizing tone, and certain amount of condescension.

I note this because, for example, SOF is not asking for advice on gear in this thread.

Yahtzee

10-08-2009, 11:42

Many people who go lightweight and are happy doing so assume that everybody will be as happy as they are, and though I don't think of it as religious, there is a certain proselytizing tone, and certain amount of condescension.

Apart from the proseltyzing, that sounds alot like my attitude. In the context of a thruhike, not a weekend, what might be some reasons that someone would purposely carry a heavier piece of gear? Of course, price comes into play with some pieces of gear, especially sleeping bags, but beyond price, I don't see much of a reason not to make every effort to get you pack as light as is safely possible. It is not a faux-religous or love of UL matter, but one of logic and reason.

If you plan on walking over 2170 miles, it stands to reason you would want to make the walking as enjoyable as is possible. Going light is the easiest and most effective way of doing that. And sacrificing your pleasure while walking so you can carry a heavier piece of gear that you will use for much less time than you will be walking just seems counterintuitive.

beakerman

10-08-2009, 11:43

There's no reason for him to do any makeover of any kind if he doesn't feel like it.

That's the one part of the whole UL thing that I do see, which kind of makes me agree with SOF to a certain extent. There seems to be an assumption that everyone should want to switch to lighter gear. That's not necessarily the case.

I note this because, for example, SOF is not asking for advice on gear in this thread.

True there is no need to try to "convert" anyone to UL or even LW. However being aware that "modern" materials are in most cases equivalent to or in some cses even superior to old school hardware why would you not want to change out that heavy gear?

I'm thinking some of the newer synthetic fabrics versus the older urethane coated nylons or to really stretch it a modern titanium pot as opposed to a cast iron skillet--don't laugh I know folks that used to pack a 6 or 7 inch skillet to cook in becasue the aluminium pans were too thin and burnt their food--that was the claim anyway...

The point is ther is value to lightening the load but only lightening it to your comfort/skill level.

Jester2000

10-08-2009, 13:06

Apart from the proseltyzing, that sounds alot like my attitude. In the context of a thruhike, not a weekend, what might be some reasons that someone would purposely carry a heavier piece of gear? Of course, price comes into play with some pieces of gear, especially sleeping bags, but beyond price, I don't see much of a reason not to make every effort to get you pack as light as is safely possible. It is not a faux-religous or love of UL matter, but one of logic and reason.

If you plan on walking over 2170 miles, it stands to reason you would want to make the walking as enjoyable as is possible. Going light is the easiest and most effective way of doing that. And sacrificing your pleasure while walking so you can carry a heavier piece of gear that you will use for much less time than you will be walking just seems counterintuitive.

I agree to a certain extent. On the other hand, my religion is "balance." I tell people that in addition to all of that walking, they're going to be in camp for five months or so. I tell people to carry what makes them happy in camp, unless it makes them so unhappy walking that they no longer enjoy that part of the hike. I could carry an ultralite tarp. But I'm happier in a free standing tent. Happier setting it up, happier sleeping in it. Because my gear choices make my pack heavier, I'm never going to carry a frameless pack, regardless of how light it is. From my point of view, being as light as is safely possible involves discomfort I'm not willing to put up with for 5 months. I'd quit. I find my point of view to be one of logic and reason.

If all I wanted to do was walk with as light a pack as possible, I'd just dayhike.

True there is no need to try to "convert" anyone to UL or even LW. However being aware that "modern" materials are in most cases equivalent to or in some cses even superior to old school hardware why would you not want to change out that heavy gear?

I'm thinking some of the newer synthetic fabrics versus the older urethane coated nylons or to really stretch it a modern titanium pot as opposed to a cast iron skillet--don't laugh I know folks that used to pack a 6 or 7 inch skillet to cook in because the aluminium pans were too thin and burnt their food--that was the claim anyway...

The point is ther is value to lightening the load but only lightening it to your comfort/skill level.

There is, of course, value in lighter gear. I'm not carrying around a 9 pound canvas tent made in 1950. I make my gear choices based on what I'm comfortable with, as you note, and what I think works. And I recognize that a lot of the cutting edge folks amongst us are the kind of people whose attitudes lead to innovations in gear getting generally lighter. I'm just not one of those people, and I never will be.

And it's not because of my skill level or how much things cost.

beakerman

10-08-2009, 14:54

Jester you and I are on the exact same page...probably the same paragraph too...

Like I said to me it's not the gear proper but materials choice or just a better design. If you conceede that you need a knife then why carry a huge one? That's my attitude about it. I make my pack as light as I can without leaving my comfort zone so I pack a knife--albeit a small one but it does what I need and want it to do. I don't cut the handle off my toothbrush...why? because it's what 0.5g and I happen to like the handle--I hate spittle and toothpaste on my hands and I make a mess when I brush...

I'm not a UL guy but I see value in the mentality to a point....As you said balance.

Tipi Walter

10-08-2009, 18:49

There is, of course, value in lighter gear. I'm not carrying around a 9 pound canvas tent made in 1950.

Dangit, I'm carrying an 8 pound nylon tent made in 2006:confused:

Snowleopard

10-09-2009, 12:38

There's no reason for him to do any makeover of any kind if he doesn't feel like it.

That's the one part of the whole UL thing that I do see, which kind of makes me agree with SOF to a certain extent. There seems to be an assumption that everyone should want to switch to lighter gear. That's not necessarily the case.

And it might not be because the person doesn't know any better, or doesn't have enough money, or doesn't have the wherewithall to make their own gear. Many people who go lightweight and are happy doing so assume that everybody will be as happy as they are, and though I don't think of it as religious, there is a certain proselytizing tone, and certain amount of condescension.

I note this because, for example, SOF is not asking for advice on gear in this thread.
Well, you're right. If he's happy with what he's got, there's no reason to change. The older stuff works and often works well. I apologize if anyone found what I wrote condescending.

For me, part of the fun is that I enjoy messing with camping gear, both old and new, heavy and light. I have to admit I don't like carrying the heavy stuff very far. My UL philosophy is more influenced by Horace Kephart (~1920) than Ray Jardine. Also, my body's getting older, joints are aching, and lighter will let me continue hiking for more years.