View Full Version : Biological machines.....fuel not food.
datadog314
10-10-2009, 17:51
In the strictest sense, we are simply biological machinery. A complex lifeform that uses the term food to represent fuel. Whatever we consume, our bodies take what is needed to both power and repair and simply discards what it either doesn't or can't use, be it, the inert ingredients or the excessive "essentials". Although some essentials are stored, i.e.fats, the vast majority are discarded as waste when the optimum absorbtion rates are met.
If one were to discard the human element called "taste" and focus only on "fueling the machine", what then would the ultimate fuel consist of?
How much weight is carried over the 2000 miles journey, that really, ends up, never used, and simply winds up being discarded in "cat-holes"?
Feral Bill
10-10-2009, 19:04
Simply biological is the ultimate in oxymorons. Nothing simple about organisms or their interactions.
One reason there are a million "theories" of diet is people simply do not understand the whole subject.
You want fuel, eat a fat and sugar mix plus supplements. See how that works out, so to speak.
Skidsteer
10-10-2009, 19:06
If one were to discard the human element called "taste" and focus only on "fueling the machine", what then would the ultimate fuel consist of?
I don't know but I wouldn't eat it.
I don't know but I wouldn't eat it.
I was thinking along those lines. I think there was a movie about it. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070723/) :eek:
The answer of course is SOYLENT GREEN
mkmangold
10-10-2009, 19:58
If one were to discard the human element called "taste" and focus only on "fueling the machine", what then would the ultimate fuel consist of?
Purina Monkey Chow. Those biology majors at Purina have already figured out what we damn, stinkin' apes need to eat.
Jonnycat
10-10-2009, 22:04
you Should Use A Bigger Font Next Time
Gray Blazer
10-11-2009, 00:23
I've evolved. Steak and potatos, baby!
mkmangold
10-11-2009, 01:48
I've evolved. Steak and potatos, baby!
Me too in real life. But the original question wasn't about dinner at home.
Butter, trail gorp, and water = fuel for the biological engine.:sun
mkmangold
10-11-2009, 02:09
Butter, trail gorp, and water = fuel for the biological engine.:sun
not true. carbs are non-essential: your body makes them from fat and proteins but not vice versa. So, really all you need is fat and protein. Maybe olive oil and whey protein powder?
datadog314
10-11-2009, 10:24
My question evolved from wondering how anyone could consist on a diet that was mainly Snicker's candybars. The bodies need for the complex B vitamins, which are the "energy-group" would strongly be lacking in a diet consisting solely of candybars.
I guess, you could do a multi-vitamin and eat Snickers bars.
Whey protein is plant protein and lacks 8 essential amino acids.......so, you would still need a multi-vitamin or at least a pill consisting of those 8 essential aminos.
beakerman
10-11-2009, 12:10
not true. carbs are non-essential: your body makes them from fat and proteins but not vice versa. So, really all you need is fat and protein. Maybe olive oil and whey protein powder?
see that is where I was headed with the OP question: what is the absolute minimum yo would need to get the fats and proteins you need to survive. Clearly a vitamin/mineral supplement would be needed for things like Vitamin C or potassium which are not likely to be found in your fuel mix.
I don't know about snickers bars other than I do like one now and again. I never considered them trail food but rather more of a between meal snack to get me over the hump at the office. I don't like them when they melt and being I live in SE TX carrying one in a pack is a no-no until late fall.
Interesting question though...
Bulldawg
10-11-2009, 12:25
I've evolved. Steak and potatos, baby!
Me too in real life. But the original question wasn't about dinner at home.
I eat steak and potatoes the first night out an awful lot of the time!!
garlic08
10-11-2009, 12:34
Simply biological is the ultimate in oxymorons. Nothing simple about organisms or their interactions.
One reason there are a million "theories" of diet is people simply do not understand the whole subject.
You want fuel, eat a fat and sugar mix plus supplements. See how that works out, so to speak.
Ditto this. Try reading "In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan. Indeed, there's nothing remotely simple about it. Just look at the balls-up mess modern nutritional "science" has made of our average national health care.
thomas533
10-11-2009, 14:20
not true. carbs are non-essential: your body makes them from fat and proteins but not vice versa. So, really all you need is fat and protein. Maybe olive oil and whey protein powder?
While the body can produce energy from fat and protein, our body goes into a crisis mode called ketosis. These diets can cause a quick drop in weight because eliminating carbohydrates causes a loss of body fluids. Lowering carbohydrate intake also prevents the body from completely burning fat.
Plus, once you do start eating carbs again, you body converts them straight to fat to replenish your store as it is the natural cycle to prepare for the next starvation event.
Ketosis has negative effects on your heart, brain, liver and muscles.
LaurieAnn
10-11-2009, 16:12
Ketones are not something to play around with.
I was admitted to the hospital for the beginning stages of diabetic ketoacidosis this year. I believe it's like a more severe ketosis. Basically I had a flu and couldn't keep fluids in. I became seriously dehydrated, ketosis started (something to do with acids in the body) and I started shutting down. My 8 year old hit redial on the phone and called his Dad when my blood pressure went so low that I passed out on the bathroom floor. The doctor said if the little guy hadn't been so quick my major organs would have started shutting down. It was frightening.
Now, that said, it's takes more for a non-diabetic to get into a ketosis situation but without a proper/healthy carb intake it can happen. Ketones in your urine is not a good thing for anyone.
Sure we are biological machines in a way... but we have to balance the fuel in our bodies. It's this inbalance and over-abundance of processed foods and incorrect portions sizes that are making things like diabetes and heart disease reach epidemic proportions in both our countries.
mkmangold
10-11-2009, 19:07
[quote=LaurieAnn;905557]Ketones are not something to play around with. /quote]
Not even close to the same thing. Slipping into mild ketosis because of a low carb intake for a normal person happens to us all of the time. Diabetic ketoacidosis is an emergency (as you found out) that happens to diabetics. Similarly, you shouldn't eat a Snickers bar but that doesn't mean I can't. In fact your ketoacidotic state occured NOT because you ate a low carb diet but rather because your body was unable to utilize the sugars already in your blood stream.
Sure, adequate fluid intake is necessary on a low-carb diet, but real weight loss occurs because the body's fat is used for fuel. The original question had to do with the minimum requirements needed to fuel the body, not with whether ketosis is good or bad for you.
First of all, many vitamins are found almost exclusively in carb-containing foods, so it is kind of a required food group, but whatever. I think the real answer to the OP is to dehydrate some of this stuff:
http://www.allegromedical.com/dietary-supplements-c522/compleat-p176874.html
saimyoji
10-11-2009, 19:37
you just know someone is gonna get called out to present their credentials soon.....
...advice on the internet is worth about what you pay for it....consult your doc for real information....even if it turns out what is said here is true.
having said that....i'd ask hooch's advice about this.....:D
Long feet
10-11-2009, 20:12
what then would the ultimate fuel consist of?
Bachelor Chow :D
Not really. Just kidding. It's actually bacon....
Potatoes and milk. A glob of fat on the side would be a bonus.
Bulldawg
10-11-2009, 21:00
Bachelor Chow :D
Not really. Just kidding. It's actually bacon....
MMmmmmm BACON!!!
datadog314
10-11-2009, 21:48
Let's say, you've just hiked 12 miles. You stop for the night and set up camp........it's time to eat. You have two choices for dinner. Choice number one consists of two large tablets containing 100% of the nutritional requirements for a days worth of hard work. Choice number two consists of a small bar-like loaf (made of rolled oats or rice, etc).....the bar is also slightly flavored with a tad of honey.
Now, the questions are many. Which one would you prefer? which one would take up more pack space and add weight, making your journey slightly more arduous? Which one would end up filling the cat-hole quicker?
Certainly, the *magic pill* would eliminate a daunting task that every backpacker must face three times a day (not including snacks). It would also reduce pack weight by about a quarter and make the need for leaving the trail to resupply not nearly as important. However, nothing can ever replace the unbelieveable pleasure of waking up to the smell of fresh brewed coffee or the myraid of flavors from a good handful of GORP.
Personally, I'd eat the honey flavored bar, and just deal with the weight.
saimyoji
10-11-2009, 23:01
its way more complex than just getting the nutrients your body needs. anticipation, taste, a full stomach, etc. all play a big part in your brain chemistry. eating has a huge psychological component. personally, i'd haul more weight to enjoy a meal. :)
berninbush
10-11-2009, 23:09
I'm certainly no nutritional expert. But one assumption of the original poster that nobody seems to have questioned yet, is that the material passing through the bladder and colon is useless "waste." If you could create the perfect nutritional pill that gave your body exactly the calories and nutrients it needed, and no more, would that be healthy? I'm thinking that your large intestine would not be happy to suddenly become "useless," and that the continued passage of fiber (which is simply a description for food materials that have no nutritional value) is necessary to your continued health.
Similarly, urine is not about the shedding of excess water, but about your body's use of the water you drink to cleanse the waste products built up with muscle activity. If you're not peeing, you're dehydrated and you'll quickly become very sick (including kidney failure).
I can tell this thread was not started by an Italian.
It is anathema to just think as eating as purely for nutrition and efficiency and not enjoyment. :p
Wise Old Owl
10-12-2009, 00:45
http://hikinghq.net/food.html
LaurieAnn
10-12-2009, 11:37
I can tell this thread was not started by an Italian.
It is anathema to just think as eating as purely for nutrition and efficiency and not enjoyment. :p
I'm not Italian but I sure think like one. Eating should be treated like an event... food shouldn't be tasteless or so gross that one has to wolf it down to get it past the taste buds quickly. Not to mention... ever been with a bunch of grouches on the trail? Good food can cheer everyone up and bring a group together after a long tough day - and good food is NOT difficult to prepare.
mkmangold
10-13-2009, 01:58
I'm not Italian but I sure think like one. Eating should be treated like an event... food shouldn't be tasteless or so gross that one has to wolf it down to get it past the taste buds quickly. Not to mention... ever been with a bunch of grouches on the trail? Good food can cheer everyone up and bring a group together after a long tough day - and good food is NOT difficult to prepare.
I'm getting to the age where I need my vision tested every year. I thought this thread was about the minimum energy/nutritional requirements necessary to sustain a hike but apparently it's about the psychological advantage of good tasting food. Mea culpa. I am an amateur chef and really believe in the social and spiritual advantages of a "meal" (as a Christian, I really believe Jesus loved to feed people and we should, too). Forgive me for reading a scientific slant into the question when apparently it had more to do with art than science. And thanks for the fine support when I was trying to get a scientific point across, "credentials" or not.
I'the minimum energy/nutritional requirements necessary to sustain a hike but apparently
The post was about intellectual wankery about the most pure food so you don't have to crap as much when backpacking.
That's it.
Carry on.
There you go. Boiled it down to easily digestible.
But you did deprive some wankage.
datadog314
10-13-2009, 09:49
No, I started this thread simply wondering how one could fuel themselves with the most optimum "fuel" available. I considered everything from pack weight to production of waste, taste, and the human element of smelling and sitting down to a fresh cooked meal.
Personally, I have no desire to simply pop a few pills and wash my hands of the food/fuel issue. Nor, am I trying to impress anyone by asking ethereal questions.................I'm planning to walk over 2000 miles, up and down mountains.............now, how smart can I really be?
After a long day, humping a heavy pack around, a Thanksgiving-like feast sounds good, however, it doesn't sound too realistic. There then must be a middle ground somewhere.......I'm simply asking if it's possible.
beakerman
10-13-2009, 11:28
No, I started this thread simply wondering how one could fuel themselves with the most optimum "fuel" available. I considered everything from pack weight to production of waste, taste, and the human element of smelling and sitting down to a fresh cooked meal.
Well in your original post you specifically discount teh event of eating...at least that's how I read it and it seems others as well. What ever way you intended is irrelevant becasue that is how it was taken.
As for your final questson of it being possible to find some middle ground I would answer in the affirmative.
There are a great many of us that eat very well on the trail. Now some of us pack a little heavier than others but that is all about personal choice and comfort levels which should be discussed on the pack weight threads not here. Suffice to say if you aske the right question about food someone will give yo uan answer you can work with. Keep in mind there is no accounting for taste for example: I complained about mixing tuna and ramen noodles once and I was surpized how many folks said they love it...in my world not even hot sauce could fix that mess. So My advice is aske the correct questions, take the answers you get with agrain of salt (sometimes litterally) and then try them out at home or the office for lunch (that's my test bed so I have a fall back postion of Jack in the Box).
I think I see.
Like with vitamin supplements. What is sufficient and what will be flushed away without being absorbed.
Be interested if any studies have been done on astronauts and the like.
Mags has gone all Colorado healthy. Skinny boy pics prove that. I bet he has a woman feeding him carrots.
garlic08
10-13-2009, 12:55
Mags has gone all Colorado healthy. Skinny boy pics prove that. I bet he has a woman feeding him carrots.
Hah! Only one? :D
ShelterLeopard
10-13-2009, 12:59
you Should Use A Bigger Font Next Time
Sorry, what did you say?
ShelterLeopard
10-13-2009, 13:01
And to the original question- I don't know. If you want to use everything you eat, you have to eat less, more often. I guess the ultimate fuel would consist of fat, grain, etc... all rolled in a ball. I'm more of a flavor person myself- to heck with using every last grain of what goes in my mouth, I'd rather put something that tastes good in.
Hah! Only one? :D
hmm..er..ah,.yeah :D
Well, this one is attempting to feed me cake... (http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs278.snc1/10518_177611180020_563440020_4143016_3599211_n.jpg )
..and well, this one loves Makers Mark.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs258.snc1/10518_170047270020_563440020_4071934_4949785_n.jpg )
I am enjoying the company I must say.
That is all.
now, how smart can I really be?
.
You are from Rhode Island..how smart can anyone from Rhode Island really be? :D
(I'm allowed to say that. I know what Autocrat coffee syrup is after all. ;) )
datadog314
10-13-2009, 16:21
Uh, Rhode Island............home of Brown University and Rhode Island school of Design. Two prestigious schools in a state smaller than a ranch in Texas (King Ranch).............Oh yeah, don't forget Johnson and Wales, a top notch culinary arts school or, the University of Rhode Island, an excellent plant science, oceanography, Pharmacology, school.
What's the name of that school in your state?
What is it they do again?
What's the name of that school in your state?[/b]
What is it they do again?
Dude..I WAS BORN IN RHODE ISLAND AND RAISED IN RHODE ISLAND!!!!!
Left when I was 25. In true RI fashion, all but 2 of the 16 grandchildren in my family live within 10 minutes of each other, too. :)
The Autocrat syrup remark did not tip you off?!?! And you call yourself a RIer! Do you even know what "three all da way" means? Where to get the best pizza strips? :p
Sheesh..you should start a thread about implanting a sarcasm bone. :D I don't think you can be a RIer. Your sense of sarcasm is way off. ;)
Short fuse tho, qualifies as naive New Englander. South of the river, you understand.
as naive New Englander.
Naive New Englander? Is that one one who believes that the text tile industry will make a come-back? :)
(It's all good...the OP and I are exchanging RI memories via e-mail. :D)
beakerman
10-13-2009, 19:08
Mags
I think he meant native but I'll let him correct his own posts...however I like the way you think.
Geeze even I got the sarcasm someone (datadog) needs to relax....its only a little harmless "funning" you take yourself too seriously. You sound like a texan when you get all uppety about your state.
I think the demise of the text tile industry in New England is written in stone.
The t is understood. Like the license plate.:)
datadog314
10-14-2009, 09:40
Hey, sorry guys...................the Datadog just needed to take a chill pill, I'm better now. I do, however, want to thank you for pointing that out. To be a scrappin pup, chained up in the smallest kennel in the country (Rhode Island) gets to ya at times. Perhaps, it's the Napoleon complex all us Road-Islanda's have.
Back to the food issue. I've done 30 day trips before but, I relied alot on a fishing pole for food. I haven't heard a breath about eating fish while hiking the trail. I also supplemented with alot of "greens" found while hiking. Survival camping has always been a staple of my trips but, then again, I wasn't hiking 15 miles a day and usually had a base-camp, I'd use for days at a time.
I fully realize, one must carry everything that is to be consumed, therefore, the big fish and salad green dinners don't seem practicle. My origional question, buried deep within alot of wordy statements, was, what would make the best meals that include taste and power production, ease of preperation, lack of useless inert ingredients that add to useless pack-weight?
Is it better to plan on eating one way "on the trail", then, eating completely differently when I come "off the trail"..................or is it realistic to expect *all you can eat buffets* at every turn?
I think I might have answered my own question while writing this but, I'll take any input.
I don't know if this is related - I'm not 100% sure I really understood the rest of this thread, or its direction, but:
there is an awesome documentary on America's food supply called:
The Future of Our Food.
google it. it's 90 minutes long and worth every moment. I grew up on a dairy farm in WI and my father swears by Monsanto and how "great" farming is now that he has their seed - but my personal view is that of evil and terrifying power.
sorry about the bigger font. :p
atraildreamer
10-14-2009, 22:21
Dude..I WAS BORN IN RHODE ISLAND AND RAISED IN RHODE ISLAND!!!!!
Left when I was 25. In true RI fashion, all but 2 of the 16 grandchildren in my family live within 10 minutes of each other, too. :)
The Autocrat syrup remark did not tip you off?!?! And you call yourself a RIer! Do you even know what "three all da way" means? Where to get the best pizza strips? :p
Sheesh..you should start a thread about implanting a sarcasm bone. :D I don't think you can be a RIer. Your sense of sarcasm is way off. ;)
I was born in Columbus, Ohio and got transplanted to this dysfunctional state when I was 3 weeks old. Never had the sense to leave. But on the other hand the love of good RI-born woman, numerous "three all da way" NY System "gaggers" (let them figure that reference out! :-?) washed down by gallons of Autocrat's finest, as well as authentic RED "chowda" (Boy...I do miss Rocky Point's AYCE shore dinner hall! b:() have more than made up for living in the mess that RI has become!
I going to see if I can get a pack made in the Autocrat Coffee Yellow color...so you will know that it is me coming up the trail! :D
Being serious (what? me?), the simple meals seems to work best. A soggy carb dish (ramen, cous cous, etc) paired with some protein like tuna. OTOH, I love salad when I finally get into town. Mmm..fresh fruits and veggies.
Not being serious..this for all you fellow RIers : :sun
http://www.autocrat.com/Cart/images/COFFEEMILKSEAL.gif
I have a bottle of Eclipse (http://www.amazon.com/Eclipse-Syrup-Regular-6-count/dp/B0002XIBJ2)in my fridge that I brought home from from my last visit. Truly!
..and just to show all is good, here's a cool Rhody photo from the OP. I used to hike there back when I lived there...
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/2/4/1/2/0/hike_snaps_2_005.jpg
Let's all hug now. ;)
mkmangold
10-14-2009, 23:19
Let's all hug now. ;)
No hugs from me. Nice pic, tho. What's the OP?
No hugs from me. Nice pic, tho. What's the OP?
Original Poster.
Wise Old Owl
10-15-2009, 00:57
Nice pic Mags! Really Satisfies! can I use that as a background on my computer?
Nice pic Mags! Really Satisfies! can I use that as a background on my computer?
I should add it is not my photo. :) It is Data Dog's. He took that really nice photo In fact, you should all check out his gallery:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/browseimages.php?c=721&userid=24120
Nice photos of some actual hiking areas in the biggest little state in the union. :)
Before I moved to Colorado, this is where I hiked when i could not drive up to the Whites.
datadog314
10-15-2009, 09:42
Wow, thanks to all for the kind words about my photos. They were all taken at Arcadia state park, located here in the smallest state in the Union. My gallery contains a small sampling of the photos I take, I'll keep putting them up for all to enjoy. Arcadia state park is a beautiful place, it's hard to believe, it's only 12 miles from where I sit. I consider myself lucky to have it available to me to train for my hike.
Being so close to the ocean, I think I'll be in for a shock when I start climbing the mountains........Rhode Islands highest point is only alittle over 800 feet.
Should I start thinking about taking oxygen bottles, when I hit the Smokies?
Hey, I was born here in RI but, am married to a woman from Ohio.......I kinda got a chuckle from Traildreamer.
Hey, Dreamer..........I used to live on Vinton street in Federal Hill and was involved in building/starting Julian's resturant...................ever been there?
Enjoy the photos, my friends..................feel free to do what you want with them.....Thanks!
No, I started this thread simply wondering how one could fuel themselves with the most optimum "fuel" available. I considered everything from pack weight to production of waste, taste, and the human element of smelling and sitting down to a fresh cooked meal.
I'm late to the discussion but I would think pemmican would be the optimum fuel. In terms of weight and nutrient value it would have to be in the top several foods available. Added to that the history of long distance travel associated with the product, I think it would be worth looking into.
I currently eat a diet of almost zero carbs, a carnivore's diet, and have never felt better. Protein/fat are the basic nutrients needed for the human body, so no supplementation is necessary. I shudder reading the accounts of hikers eating nothing but candy and Ramen noodles of months on end. Eat enough fat to meet your caloric needs and enough protein for repair and I think you'll do fine.
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/5/10/upping-production-or-how-i-have-become-a-one-man-pemmican-fa.html
TW
bloodmountainman
10-15-2009, 10:04
The most food I've ever carried at one time was 5 days worth. Fish.. tuna, smoked salmon, canned oysters. Pasta... ramen, rice.... veggies...carrots celery, olives. Carbs...peanut butter and honey mixture, candy bars, cocco.
Total weight for 5 days 7lbs
datadog314
10-15-2009, 11:29
T-Dubs,... Wow, there it is.................excellent article.
I've marked that site, it contains ALOT of great info......Thanks
atraildreamer
10-16-2009, 19:11
Being so close to the ocean, I think I'll be in for a shock when I start climbing the mountains........Rhode Islands highest point is only a little over 800 feet.
Should I start thinking about taking oxygen bottles, when I hit the Smokies?
Hey, I was born here in RI but, am married to a woman from Ohio.......I kinda got a chuckle from Traildreamer.
Hey, Dreamer..........I used to live on Vinton street in Federal Hill and was involved in building/starting Julian's resturant...................ever been there?
RI's North-South Trail to Massachusetts Mid-State Trail to New Hampshire's Wapack Trail would be a nice prep hike for the AT.
A lot of men in the Navy, based at Newport, met and married RI girls and got stuck here because the girls don't want to leave their mamas!:mad:
I live on the East Side (not the rich section!:rolleyes:) . Never been to Julian's, but I met the RI Attorney-General at Dunkin' Donuts on Gano St. He was buying donuts for his office. I told him that I was glad that his staff had him well-trained!:D Boy...did he get ticked off at that remark! :eek:
Never pass up an opportunity to stick it to a pol in Little Rhody...they all deserve it! :p:banana
mkmangold
10-16-2009, 21:02
I currently eat a diet of almost zero carbs, a carnivore's diet, and have never felt better. Protein/fat are the basic nutrients needed for the human body, so no supplementation is necessary. I shudder reading the accounts of hikers eating nothing but candy and Ramen noodles of months on end. Eat enough fat to meet your caloric needs and enough protein for repair and I think you'll do fine.TW
...Right??