Dogs in the backcountry

[birdog]

Is it just me or are more and more people hiking in the Smoky's with dogs? According to the Park Service it is against the rules but I just got back from a 4 day trip and I saw at least 6 dogs WAY back in the backcountry.

[Wise Old Owl]

Don't know but you sparked my interest and nobody follows rules anymore, or we would all still be doing 55mpg and saving gas.

[sheepdog]

rules are just for other people????

[spirit4earth]

I'm wondering what thru-hikers do with their dogs when the trail passes through national parks.

[Jeepocachers]

There hasn't been one time that I haven't seen someone in the backcountry with a dog in the Smokies. Mostly day hikers, but there was one backpacker that was camped out on the Forney Creek trail with his Beagle.

[Disney]

Don't know but you sparked my interest and nobody follows rules anymore, or we would all still be doing 55mpg and saving gas.


I don't think it's an "anymore" thing so much as a human nature thing. People have been breaking some rules for a long time. Especially in the back country.

[Jack Tarlin]

What you're starting to see in the Smokies are a lot of folks with fake "service" dogs.

Other than legit srevice animals, you shouldn't see dogs in the Smokies, period. It's very much illegal.

[Chip]

Jack is right ! No dogs allowed in the backcountry of GSMNP. You said that you just came back from a 4 day hike recently. Were these dogs
running free and what type or breed do you think ? A few years ago at this time of year (October) I ran into some hunters who were trying to train their hunting dogs ( with radio collars) just inside the GSMNP boundry near Mt. Sterling. Too bad no rangers were around to stop them. :(

[birdog]

The dogs I saw ran the gamut. Toy poodles, labs, and various un-named ankle biters. I saw the poodle on top of Le Conte: 6500 ft and a fairly strenuous climb for the 300 pound woman in the pink Addidas jogging suit that was holding its' leash. Unbelievable to say the the least. Down toward Icewater Spring we ran into a Lab about 6:30 in the evening-too late to be a day hiker. On the way out we hiked Laurel Falls trail just to satisfy my masocistic tendencies to be around 10,000 of my closest friends and it looked like the Westminster Dog Show. You name it...we saw it!!!

[superman]

Bad people are every where. They should get their nose swatted with a rolled up newspaper.

[Chip]

I guess it was your lucky week to see so many dogs in the Smokies. I hike and backpack in GSMNP all the time, I live just 45 minutes away. The hunting dogs I saw in the backcountry a few years ago was a first time in the many years of treking there. It is too bad when people can't or won't control their dogs and obey the law. I own 6 dogs. Three of them hike with my wife and I at times and are always on a leash.

Next time you see someone with a dog and they do not have it on a leash, speak out and let them know that they are breaking the law. I have done so many times when I hike in Pisgah Forest. I do so in a friendly manner as not to upset them but only to inform them so if they do run in to a ranger it might save them some grief. If I see the ranger first, I will
let him know that there is a dog off leash up the trail. :D

[daverep]

Dear fellow hikers and lovers of remote places: I know rules are made good reasons. However, I go to the woods to get away from the intracacies of modern administration. When I meet someone with a dog in a resricted area I would inform them of the rules so they might avoid a fine. I would never tell a ranger unless the dog was mean or the person rude. There are so many rules and regs now that soon we will need a hiker's license and go to the Division of Hiker Registration to get it. Sounds like some of you would think this a grood thing. Perhaps some metamucil..

[wrongway_08]

I'd rather see the dogs out there, then see other people out there.

[Phreak]

What you're starting to see in the Smokies are a lot of folks with fake "service" dogs.
Any evidence to substantiate this claim?

[Mags]

Play nice all.

Nothing bad happened...yet. Let's keep it civil. :)

[Lone Wolf]

Any evidence to substantiate this claim?

i see 'em when they get here in damascus when they try to bring the on "The Place" property claiming their mutt is a "service dog". no papers, no leash. nothing proving it's a servie dog

[wrongway_08]

My dogs turn into service dogs, when I put their bright safety vest on and a harness. :)

[warraghiyagey]

I'd rather see the dogs out there, then see other people out there.
:sun:sun:sun:sun

[Jack Tarlin]

Phreak:

My "evidence" to support this claim is from folks who've told me flat out that their sercice dog is fake but that nobody can prove otherwis; plus lots of other folks I've seen who've looked for (and found) loopholes in the law, and who have no license or paperwork or badge or certificate of any kind to support their claim that their dog is in service, and say that it is their legal "right" to not have to document the legitimacy of their service animal, i.e., they don't have to prove legitimacy to anyone, tho it'd be ridiculously easy to do so, if their dog was, in fact, a legit service dog. Which leads one to think that when one encounters an undocumented or badged "service" dog, or when the owner indignantly insists that they don't have to show any documentaion or proof, well I think the owner if fulla s***.

Basically, Phreak, anyone who wants to can claim that their dog is a service animal, and it'd be virtually impossible for anyone to prove otherwise, meaning the chance of anyone getting in trouble by travelling in a restriced area with a fake service animal is minimal, even non-existent.

And this happens all the time.

[Lone Wolf]

they can't stay at The Place. private property :)

[warraghiyagey]

This so remids me of the perfectly functional, limber folk who use handicapped parking and have the tag. . .

[Lone Wolf]

This so remids me of the perfectly functional, limber folk who use handicapped parking and have the tag. . .

and usually their handicap is they're fat

[warraghiyagey]

and usually their handicap is they're fat
agreed. . .

[sheepdog]

and usually their handicap is they're fat
fat can be quite debilitating :D

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, Wolf, motels are private property, too, and I've seen people with undocumented service animals insist to the owners that their dogs have a "right" to be there, and you know what......they're probably right, legally.

So I suspect if one wanted to push the issue, they could stay at a private hostel like The Place, too.

[Lone Wolf]

So I suspect if one wanted to push the issue, they could stay at a private hostel like The Place, too.

nope. it's not a place of business. no rights for them

[Jack Tarlin]

I'm not a lawyer, Wolf, but I suspect that a place that is open to the general public has to conform to Federal Law, like the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Perhaps someone better informed on this, like Weasel, can provide more information. But maybe you're right, the same way that private clubs can restrict their memberships, despite anti-discrimination laws.

I'd be curious to know the answer.

[sheepdog]

doesn't someone with a therapy dog have documentation?
I know the people who train seeing eye dogs do.

[warraghiyagey]

Wolf is correct. . . I'm not a lawyer but I have read all Weasy's stuff. . .

[sheepdog]

Wolf is correct. . . I'm not a lawyer but I have read all Weasy's stuff. . .
have you ever stayed at a holiday express??

[Jack Tarlin]

As far as I know, Sheepdog, all legit therapy dogs have some sort of verification papers or documentation, tho not everyone chooses to carry or display it.

In my experience, people who have legit animals have no problem with their dog wearing a banner, badge, or whatever, and they also don't have a problem with carrying documentation, in case they run into a store employee or whatever unfamiliar with the law or the very concept of service animals. This cuts down on problems for everyone.

I know of at least one person who has a legitimate service animal but simply refuses to carry or display documentation, despite the problems this may create.

In other cases, I very strongly suspect that a dog whose owner cannot or will not show legitimate documentation re. their service animal has no legitimate documentation or paperwork to offer.

[warraghiyagey]

have you ever stayed at a holiday express??
Why yes. . . as a matter of fact. . .

[Chip]

Most dogs are good. Inform the owner of the leash law. If they don't put the dog on a leash and later you get lucky to meet a ranger along the way, let the ranger know. There are alot of responsible hikers who obey the law and keep their dog on a leash. It is a few inconsiderate dog owners that make it rough for all that do hike with dogs. Dog owners should use some common sense ! Some hikers don't want to be bothered by a dog. Jumped on, the fear of being bitten, a wet dog in a shelter and all over everyone and their gear... I could go on and on. If dog owners want the right to hike with their dog then they need to respect all hikers and their right to be on the trail too! When hiking my dogs are on leash, I tent or tarp, no shelters and stay at least 100 feet away from them, take dogs off trail for pee and poop breaks (bury waste).

Metamucil...get real . Be responsible !!!

[sheepdog]

As far as I know, Sheepdog, all legit therapy dogs have some sort of verification papers or documentation, tho not everyone chooses to carry or display it.

In my experience, people who have legit animals have no problem with their dog wearing a banner, badge, or whatever, and they also don't have a problem with carrying documentation, in case they run into a store employee or whatever unfamiliar with the law or the very concept of service animals. This cuts down on problems for everyone.

I know of at least one person who has a legitimate service animal but simply refuses to carry or display documentation, despite the problems this may create.

In other cases, I very strongly suspect that a dog whose owner cannot or will not show legitimate documentation re. their service animal has no legitimate documentation or paperwork to offer.
I'm no lawyer but it seems like if you don't have the paper work, "you got nothin comin"

[Jack Tarlin]

I would tend to agree with you, Sheepdog, but apparently the law says differently. I have encountered any number of folks who have announced that their "service" dog has no verification or documentation papers, that they don't have to produce them to anyone, and that there's nothing anyone can do about it, as the law, as written, protects them.

And regrettably, they may well be right.

[warraghiyagey]

We desparately need Weasy's expertise on this issue. . .

[sheepdog]

I would tend to agree with you, Sheepdog, but apparently the law says differently. I have encountered any number of folks who have announced that their "service" dog has no verification or documentation papers, that they don't have to produce them to anyone, and that there's nothing anyone can do about it, as the law, as written, protects them.

And regrettably, they may well be right.
Is there a law against saying you have a service dog, when you do not?

[sheepdog]

We desparately need Weasy's expertise on this issue. . .
shine the big W spotlight on the clouds comissioner!!!

[Lone Wolf]

I'm not a lawyer, Wolf, but I suspect that a place that is open to the general public has to conform to Federal Law, like the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Perhaps someone better informed on this, like Weasel, can provide more information. But maybe you're right, the same way that private clubs can restrict their memberships, despite anti-discrimination laws.

I'd be curious to know the answer.

the "place" is not open to the general public

[warraghiyagey]

shine the big W spotlight on the clouds comissioner!!!
http://gatchel.com/batman/batman.gif

[Wise Old Owl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by warraghiyagey http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=912558#post912558)
Wolf is correct. . . I'm not a lawyer but I have read all Weasy's stuff. . .

have you ever stayed at a holiday express??



Why yes. . . as a matter of fact. . .



ACTUALLY he met Al Sharpton once.......

[Wil]

Is it safe to boil dogs in freezer bags?

[warraghiyagey]

Is it safe to boil dogs in freezer bags?
I can't see why not. . .

[The Weasel]

First of all, while there are abuses (as with anything else, such as, for instance, those who have said they 'stealth camp' away from shelters in GSMNP), "service animals" are not something for which there is a "license" or "registration" or "papers" or "documents." There are legitimate service dogs which are "ankle biters" just as there are larger dogs; the issue is what handicap the animal is assisting its companion.

Second, while there are formal training programs for some categories of service animals - primarily dogs - there are also ones which are ripoffs and don't provide real training. Even the ones which do can be hideously expensive, and for some people, that level of training is financially impossible or unnecessary.

Third, while a lot of prudent partners of service animals have vests or scarves for the animal, a lot of handicapped people don't wish to draw additional attention to their handicap. It's also a bit rude to say to someone, "Is that a service dog?" just as it would be to say, "Do you really need those eyeglasses?" or "Couldn't you just walk up a few steps to that bathroom instead of insisting on a ramp for your wheelchair?"

Those who either recall or do some research here know I'm not a fan of dogs on hiking trails. But in the last few years, as my hearing loss has gotten near-total in one ear and nearly as bad in the other, Chase The Incredible Rocket Dog has become my companion on many trips to serve as an "alert dog." He hears things I won't, and I know his body language and ways of communicating to me to understand many of the things I wish I could hear, but can't, that are happening around us. I'm not alone in this, and he has already kept me from significant discomfort, difficulty and injury on a number of occasions.

Lastly, I am sure that the leaders of the Church that owns The Place would understand that a place that is open for accommodations to the general public such as it is must allow service animals to accompany their people in staying overnight. They may want to be a bit more intrusive for that by asking people if the animal is truly to assist a handicap. But whether it is a Seeing-Eye Dog for the Blind, an Alert Dog for the Hearing Impaired, or other service animal, yes, they can stay at the Place.

But I do agree that those who abuse the service animal concept are every bit as contemptible as those who would feign any other disability to get something they do not deserve. They should be (but probably are not) ashamed of themselves.



TW

[warraghiyagey]

First of all, while there are abuses (as with anything else, such as, for instance, those who have said they 'stealth camp' away from shelters in GSMNP), "service animals" are not something for which there is a "license" or "registration" or "papers" or "documents." There are legitimate service dogs which are "ankle biters" just as there are larger dogs; the issue is what handicap the animal is assisting its companion.

Second, while there are formal training programs for some categories of service animals - primarily dogs - there are also ones which are ripoffs and don't provide real training. Even the ones which do can be hideously expensive, and for some people, that level of training is financially impossible or unnecessary.

Third, while a lot of prudent partners of service animals have vests or scarves for the animal, a lot of handicapped people don't wish to draw additional attention to their handicap. It's also a bit rude to say to someone, "Is that a service dog?" just as it would be to say, "Do you really need those eyeglasses?" or "Couldn't you just walk up a few steps to that bathroom instead of insisting on a ramp for your wheelchair?"

Those who either recall or do some research here know I'm not a fan of dogs on hiking trails. But in the last few years, as my hearing loss has gotten near-total in one ear and nearly as bad in the other, Chase The Incredible Rocket Dog has become my companion on many trips to serve as an "alert dog." He hears things I won't, and I know his body language and ways of communicating to me to understand many of the things I wish I could hear, but can't, that are happening around us. I'm not alone in this, and he has already kept me from significant discomfort, difficulty and injury on a number of occasions.

Lastly, I am sure that the leaders of the Church that owns The Place would understand that a place that is open for accommodations to the general public such as it is must allow service animals to accompany their people in staying overnight. They may want to be a bit more intrusive for that by asking people if the animal is truly to assist a handicap. But whether it is a Seeing-Eye Dog for the Blind, an Alert Dog for the Hearing Impaired, or other service animal, yes, they can stay at the Place.

But I do agree that those who abuse the service animal concept are every bit as contemptible as those who would feign any other disability to get something they do not deserve. They should be (but probably are not) ashamed of themselves.



TW

http://sleepzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/snoring.jpg

[The Weasel]

I'm not a lawyer, Wolf, but I suspect that a place that is open to the general public has to conform to Federal Law, like the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Perhaps someone better informed on this, like Weasel, can provide more information. But maybe you're right, the same way that private clubs can restrict their memberships, despite anti-discrimination laws.

I'd be curious to know the answer.

Jack is precisely correct.

Interestingly, if the Church (United Methodist, as I recall) wished to make The Place a "private club" it might be able to bar handicapped users of service animals. Of course, given the long and honorable history of the United Methodist Church in fighting discrimination, not to mention the policies of the UMC, I have no doubt the Church would not try to do so.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Thanks, Weasel.

I think it's great for subjects like this to be discussed, as everyone has a valid opinion on different things, but it's always good to hear from someone who speaks with authority on certain things, such as legal issues.

[The Weasel]

I would tend to agree with you, Sheepdog, but apparently the law says differently. I have encountered any number of folks who have announced that their "service" dog has no verification or documentation papers, that they don't have to produce them to anyone, and that there's nothing anyone can do about it, as the law, as written, protects them.

And regrettably, they may well be right.

They are.

As for those who get snarky about the "limber" people with Handicap Placards for parking, keep in mind that there are a lot of people with "invisible" handicaps (the example I'm most familiar with are people with severe Coronary Heart Disease or Myocardiopathy). If you want to appoint yourself a Handicap Nazi and query everyone you think is wrong, almost as contemptible as those actually abuse such things. People with handicaps - and there are many of us - which aren't apparent to those of you who are blessedly free of them sort of wish you would stuff a sock in it.

TW

[Wise Old Owl]

Did it occur to anyone that dogs not being allowed in the Smokies is a stupid rule?


Sorry Jack. I just don't need to see any stinkin' badges.

[The Weasel]

No, it's not a stupid rule. It's a very smart rule. Like most smart rules, it has (or should have) exceptions.

TW

[Wise Old Owl]

Well W I say its a stupid rule, I don't care you are not going to change my opinion.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, it's a very wise rule, and mainly has to do with concerns over animals harassing or killing park wildlife, as well as worries that dogs may bring diseases into the Park that could similarly affect wildlife.

[Wise Old Owl]

Jack I took two dogs out today at Hawk Mountain, except for an occasional chipmunk - there was nothing. It's just dumb. Next you will be quoting there's germs in the poo - please. I said its dumb.

The dogs are my responsibility in a court of law - not yours.

[Jack Tarlin]

Owl:

You're a dog owner, so it's inevitable you're going to see this differently.

So there's probably not much point in debating it.

But the fact remains that having a pet is an individual decision, and that barring service animals, pet owners do NOT have an inherent right to enjoy the company of their pet anywhere and everywhere.

And this includes National Parks.

[Wise Old Owl]

Yes you are right Jack - but getting back to your original post, I am not about to ask to see a service animals credentials. Much like asking any American with a gun on his hip "Can I see your Gun Licence?" with Respect to you and W - you are barking up the wrong tree.



This whole thread is off the wall, much like Northwest Pilots falling asleep while flying....They were going the "extra mile"

[The Weasel]

I'm a dog owner, and I don't take Chase unless I have to. Why?

- Dogs "mark" territory with their urine. This has major effects on unseen animals who will avoid the area, including coyote, wild cats, oppossums and others.

- Dogs add to the waste load, and owners rarely bury or remove dog waste from trail areas.

- Dogs will disrupt other animals, birds and reptiles by their scent or by aggression. Just because your dog doesn't (it does, but you just don't notice it), doesn't mean many if not most don't.

- Dogs in wilderness areas can get very stressed without even their partners noticing it. This accounts for much of the canine aggression (aggressive barking, biting, rushing) that happens when they see strangers, leading to the "My dog never did that before." That's because your dog is very comfortable in his home area, with the smells (dogs are primarily scent oriented, while we're visually oriented) but trails have thousands of new and unusual (which can mean threatening to the 'new dog on the trail') smells.

There are more reasons. Those are enough. I wish I didn't need Chase, and I try not to.

TW

[birdog]

It's not dumb at all in my humble opinion. Dogs can and do carry several diseases that negatively affect both wildlife and humans alike. Rabies would be the most talked about. Skunks, raccoons, and coyotes all carry rabies and can infect any dog which in turn can infect it's owner. But more to the point, bears perceive dogs as a threat in any case. A bear will become aggressive in the presence of a canine and act accordingly. Bears and dogs together in the back country are a bad combination and any altercation between the two has the potential to involve the owner. It's not worth the negatives just to cater to the hiker that wants to take fido along. I'm a dog owner and I take Milo along when the rules and saftey permit.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually Owl, I agree with you.....I would never ask or demand to see someone's credentials, either.

And I never advocated that folks do this, either.

What I said was that a lot of people play the system to their advantage, and this includes the legitimacy of their service dogs.

There are any number of folks out there who seem to think they should be allowed to have their dog with them anywhere at anytime, regardless of rules and regulations that most folks respect and adhere to.

It is this small group of dog owners that I was referring to.

[Wise Old Owl]

Birddog dogs get shots and licences for that. Cant take the dog anywhere without having to prove they have the shot - so try again.

Weasel-if you want to leave your dog at home for those reasons, hey that's up to you...I do notice and the last reptile (snake) moved on. so what. IMO.

[Wise Old Owl]

Actually Owl, I agree with you.....I would never ask or demand to see someone's credentials, either.

And I never advocated that folks do this, either.

What I said was that a lot of people play the system to their advantage, and this includes the legitimacy of their service dogs.

There are any number of folks out there who seem to think they should be allowed to have their dog with them anywhere at anytime, regardless of rules and regulations that most folks respect and adhere to.

It is this small group of dog owners that I was referring to.

SOMEDAY it would actually be really good to meet you and share a Bourbon, Makers Mark or a little better?

[Jack Tarlin]

Knob Creek would do fine and I'll look forward to it!

[Wise Old Owl]

Awesome - I will buy the bottle!

[birdog]

True, true,.....for those who follow the rules and common sense of dog ownership. But as we have seen here, there are those who will defy the rules and common sense at the drop of a leash. So what rule or law of common sense do we choose to defy; dogs in the backcountry or proper innoculations or both?

[cowboy nichols]

They are.

As for those who get snarky about the "limber" people with Handicap Placards for parking, keep in mind that there are a lot of people with "invisible" handicaps (the example I'm most familiar with are people with severe Coronary Heart Disease or Myocardiopathy). If you want to appoint yourself a Handicap Nazi and query everyone you think is wrong, almost as contemptible as those actually abuse such things. People with handicaps - and there are many of us - which aren't apparent to those of you who are blessedly free of them sort of wish you would stuff a sock in it.

TW
Amen there are many medical ailments that dogs can idenifly

[birdog]

Check out this website to get some good info:health.state.tn.us/FactSheets/rabies

[Wise Old Owl]

Check out this website to get some good info:health.state.tn.us/FactSheets/rabies


You are way off base here, you can post urls by cut & paste FYI

Here is what is true and written by some cat lover Senator,

Pets





http://www.nps.gov/ser/templates/images/graphics/spacer.gifhttp://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/images/ANNIEclip6.jpgHeidi Weimer photoDogs must be on a leash at all times while in the park.http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/images/spacer.gifDogs are allowed in campgrounds, picnic areas, and along roads, but must be kept on a leash at all times. The leash must not exceed 6 feet in length. Dogs are only allowed on two short walking paths—the Gatlinburg Trail (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/gatlinburg-trail.htm) and the Oconaluftee River Trail (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/ocon-river-trail.htm). Pets are not allowed on any other park trails. Pet excrement must be immediately collected by the pet handler and disposed of in a trash receptacle. Pets should not be left unattended in vehicles or RVs.
Large national parks that have extensive backcountry areas as a rule do not allow dogs on trails. These include parks such as Yellowstone, Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Glacier, Rocky Mountains, and several others. Great Smoky Mountains National Park has prohibited dogs in the backcountry since the park was first established in the 1930s. The park prohibits dogs on hiking trails for several reasons:

• Dogs can carry disease into the park's wildlife populations.
• Dogs can chase and threaten wildlife, scaring birds and other animals away from nesting, feeding, and resting sites. The scent left behind by a dog can signal the presence of a predator, disrupting or altering the behavior of park wildlife. Small animals may hide in their burrow the entire day after smelling a dog and may not venture out to feed.
• Dogs bark and disturb the quiet of the wilderness. Unfamiliar sights, sounds, and smells can disturb even the calmest, friendliest, and best-trained dog, causing them to behave unpredictably or bark excessively.
• Pets may become prey for larger predators such as coyotes and bears. In addition, if your dog disturbs and enrages a bear, it may lead the angry bear directly to you. Dogs can also encounter insects that bite and transmit disease and plants that are poisonous or full of painful thorns and burrs.
• Many people, especially children, are frightened by dogs, even small ones. Uncontrolled dogs can present a danger to other visitors.
The Southern Highlands region offers an amazing variety of federal public lands for recreation and enjoyment. Some public lands outside the Smokies offer a wider range of recreational opportunities than are available here, including hiking with your pet. For maps and information about these national forests and recreation areas please contact the offices listed below. (By clicking on these links, you will leave the Great Smoky Mountains National Park website.)


See? no mention of Rabies. ps I still say it lame, animals will alter their behavior with the smell of smoke, planes fly overhead all the time, its about crap.

[birdog]

Sorry for the lack of computer skills but the point remains: dogs in the backcountry are not a good idea. Granted, the rabies issue is not a huge reason(3 cases in TN in 2008 concerning dogs). The other reasons aforementioned do have weight. The bear issue is a real one....just ask the guy at Newfound Gap in May of 2007 who lost his ankle-biter to a bear. Must have been very hungry to snatch the little beast right off the leash.

[Wise Old Owl]

Well I thought that might be the case as I have walked into many a rabied or visibly screwed sick wild animal over the years and have avoided the drama.

The bear issue does not have any weight, bears hate dog barks and noises and run off.

With exception to the feces, the rest of the rules were written a long time ago in a land far away, - fiction.

[Jack Tarlin]

Which brings up another reason why some folks don't care to hike around dogs......yeah, in all likelihood they'll scare off the bears, but they'll scare off everything else within half a mile, too, and seeing wild animals in their natural homes is one of the principal reasons people go out in the backcountry in the first place.

[yaduck9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw1Sg6Fz1MI

[The Weasel]

SOMEDAY it would actually be really good to meet you and share a Bourbon, Makers Mark or a little better?

I'm told he also likes The Macallan.

TW

[jrwiesz]

...

• Dogs can carry disease into the park's wildlife populations.
...
See? no mention of Rabies. ps I still say it lame, animals will alter their behavior with the smell of smoke, planes fly overhead all the time, its about crap.

Seems you missed an important portion of your own post.

Rabies, among many other dog maladies, is a disease.

You're entitled to your opinion. The rule is there for a legitimate concern.

Isle Royale has the same rule, no dogs/pets to visit the park. The parvo virus is a legitimate concern to the ecosystem.

You're hooting up the wrong tree.

[Lone Wolf]

Lastly, I am sure that the leaders of the Church that owns The Place would understand that a place that is open for accommodations to the general public such as it is must allow service animals to accompany their people in staying overnight. They may want to be a bit more intrusive for that by asking people if the animal is truly to assist a handicap. But whether it is a Seeing-Eye Dog for the Blind, an Alert Dog for the Hearing Impaired, or other service animal, yes, they can stay at the Place.




TW
The Place is not open for accommodations to the general public. it is only for hikers walking the AT and bicyclists on the 76 bike trail. they allow police dogs to do drug searches

[nitewalker]

Knob Creek would do fine and I'll look forward to it!


now thats some tough stuff. my brother in daytona has a bottle of that, its been around for at least 8 years or so.....uggh:eek::D

[Wise Old Owl]

Seems you missed an important portion of your own post.

Rabies, among many other dog maladies, is a disease.

You're entitled to your opinion. The rule is there for a legitimate concern.

Isle Royale has the same rule, no dogs/pets to visit the park. The parvo virus is a legitimate concern to the ecosystem.

You're hooting up the wrong tree.

Actually if you look again I didn't say "its crap" I said "its about crap" Parvo is transmitted via diarrea and feces. I accually pay extra each year for kennel cough and Parvo vaccines where most dogs only get Rabies.

I am just miffed because as you walk the trail and pass from state game lands to parks to other types of properties there are all these signs with about thirty to fifty rules about "your responsibilities" posted on a tree. The stuff about dogs is just another rule amongs many that few follow. (remember the dog photo from Katadin last month?)

So I am not hooting up the wrong tree, I am on the tallest tree in the wood and hooting to the choir!

[The Weasel]

I hate to break it to Lone Wolf and others who think there are ways to get around the law (or that it doesn't apply when they don't want it to), but The Place (and pretty much any other hostel) are "public accommodations" under both the Americans with Disabilities Act and the similar Virginia laws. I have no doubt, however, that the Damascus UMC would never deny the use of its facilities (including The Place) to anyone who required assistance because of a handicap, including service animals; as a former Chair of a Methodist Church Administrative Board, I know that Methodists aren't going to do that, even if the law were otherwise. But it's not.

Places (such as hostels or motels or anywhereelse) who wish to inquire if a pet is a true service animal can do so, in a neutral and not overly-intrusive manner, and if they have good faith doubts after doing so, might deny access. "Good faith" is not, however, a defense to denial of access to a member of a protected group (including on the basis of race, sex, national origin, and so on, as well as handicap status) including the use of a 'reasonable accommodation' (which includes service animals). So if you deny access, and you're wrong, you're subject to a complaint to a state or federal anti-discrimination agency, such as the EEOC, or even a lawsuit. So yeah, if someone says, "I need my parrot to help me see," you might not be risking much. But if someone is serious about, "I need my dog to alert me to things I can't hear," well, keep them out at your risk.

TW

[The Weasel]

To be definitive about "service animals," this is the current US Department of Justice regulation interpreting the ADA (Americans With Disabilities Act), along with a proposed rule that I do not think is effective yet, but I haven't been able to verify it yet:

http://www.ada.gov/NPRM2008/t3NPRM_federalreg.htm

The DOJ interpretation makes it clear that there is no single "licensing" method, and rejected requests for some form of documentation. It also recognized that training (which can be individual) is essential, and that exotic pets are not included. Concerns of mistaken or fraudulent claims by people to gain access to hotels and other public accommodations are recognized, but not a justification for denial of access. It also states that animals whose "service" is purely for "emotional support" are not included. Please note that "handicap" does not mean any physical condition, but only those which involve a "substantial limitation of a major life activity." You can't hear "High C" at the Opera? Sorry, that's not the basis for bringing your dog. I can't hear a fire siren? Chase can, and he gets in the door.

I wouldn't spend this much time on this here if I didn't think it might matter to a number of hikers. If The Place would have kicked Orient out, well, Bill Irwin might not have been able to Thru the AT. People who try to fake their way into a hostel, a motel, an AYCE with their pet are scum; but those of us who need Chase or Orient or Bowser to help us see, to hear, to stand up or more need to know that every place along the trail that is open to a fully-abled hiker is open to us as well. To those who don't want us to have that right, gosh. I'm sorry. But even if it weren't the right thing to do, it's the law.

The Weasel

[Jack Tarlin]

Once again, thanks to Weasel for REAL comments about the law, etc.

[The Weasel]

For free.

TW

[John B]

I wonder if being woefully short on modesty and humility is considered a handicap with a legal recourse?

[The Weasel]

No, but it's a good quality to have to be a litigator. At least one who intends to win.

TW

[Alligator]

I wonder if being woefully short on modesty and humility is considered a handicap with a legal recourse?You can get a service cat to properly ignore you for that:D.

[wrongway_08]

Pretty sure people do more harm every hour of every day to nature/animals then all the dogs in all the parks in the U.S. do in a year. So for the few animals that they chase and the little bit of poop on the ground, big deal. And the dogs that got eaten - its called nature, put your big boy undies on and get over it.

Dogs are way better to be around then 85% of the population. The other 15% are fellow hikers (real hikers, not yuppie or web hikers)

People are suppose to be smarter then dogs, so if a person has a medical condition that makes it so they shouldnt be around dogs while hiking, then dont hike around dogs. Step aside and away from the trail when they approach. Thats why we are suppose to be smarter then animals ( I dont believe this at all).

[birdog]

OK...at the risk of beating a dead horse even more, can we look at the other side of the arguement? Is there any valid reason, other than ones' personal desire to hike with a dog, that could be offered up to sway the obviously overwhelming number of those who are NOT in favor of dogs in the backcountry. Hey, if there is sufficent reason given, besides personal preference, even I would listen. Ex. any positives to the envirnoment, benefit to society, or other pluses that I'm failing to see?

[wrongway_08]

Wont get eaten by coyotes.

[birdog]

Right-o sir....thats one in a row!

[SassyWindsor]

I've been hiking in the GSMNP many times. The 1/2 dozen times I've seen dogs on a park trail most have been leashed. I guess they think having their dog leashed will negate the rules stating they are not allowed in the first place. I'd say 90% of dogs encountered outside the GSMNP are not leashed, and the owner probably doesn't even own a leash. People will take their dog anywhere they wish without any remorse or concern for other hikers. Get use to it. Hikers, or casual strollers, who take Fido could care less how it interferes with someone else's enjoyment of the outdoors. I've learned to accept it just as I have seeing litter tossed from a car.

[Wise Old Owl]

I've been hiking in the GSMNP many times. The 1/2 dozen times I've seen dogs on a park trail most have been leashed. I guess they think having their dog leashed will negate the rules stating they are not allowed in the first place. I'd say 90% of dogs encountered outside the GSMNP are not leashed, and the owner probably doesn't even own a leash. People will take their dog anywhere they wish without any remorse or concern for other hikers. Get use to it. Hikers, or casual strollers, who take Fido could care less how it interferes with someone else's enjoyment of the outdoors. I've learned to accept it just as I have seeing litter tossed from a car.

well hmm going back over a few posts ago there were three dogs that got Rabies and had to be destroyed. They were either loose or the owners ignored the law on getting important shots that the pet wasn't vacinated. Much like inner school kids & failing parents to understand the importance of vaccines each year... Here in Pa if you get out of a car to pet a horse you see on a fenced in farm you assume the resposibility of getting your hand bit. If I decided to ignore or break the law in GSMNP and in spite of a leash, I am at fault and assume any litigation or Fines. I would suspect the fine isn't harsh so some people don't care. Its a shame what some take as a duty to do the right thing, there are others that are clearly " Entitled to ignore the law, speed, toss garbage from a window, do heavy drugs, treat others rudly or put the public at risk.

I am used to it.... Great post SassyW.

[Chip]

well hmm going back over a few posts ago there were three dogs that got Rabies and had to be destroyed. They were either loose or the owners ignored the law on getting important shots that the pet wasn't vacinated. Much like inner school kids & failing parents to understand the importance of vaccines each year... Here in Pa if you get out of a car to pet a horse you see on a fenced in farm you assume the resposibility of getting your hand bit. If I decided to ignore or break the law in GSMNP and in spite of a leash, I am at fault and assume any litigation or Fines. I would suspect the fine isn't harsh so some people don't care. Its a shame what some take as a duty to do the right thing, there are others that are clearly " Entitled to ignore the law, speed, toss garbage from a window, do heavy drugs, treat others rudly or put the public at risk.

I am used to it.... Great post SassyW.

;) as a dog owner, I implore all who hike with dogs to obey the leash laws in (or out of) parks or forest lands to use common sense and have respect for all fellow hikers on the trail. Any hiker who finds a dog off leash on the trail and meets up with the owner should speak up in a friendly manner and let them know their dog should be leashed and why. A little education won't hurt.

[Jaybird62]

Wag more, bark less.....Geez ;)

[SassyWindsor]

;) as a dog owner, I implore all who hike with dogs to obey the leash laws in (or out of) parks or forest lands to use common sense and have respect for all fellow hikers on the trail. Any hiker who finds a dog off leash on the trail and meets up with the owner should speak up in a friendly manner and let them know their dog should be leashed and why. A little education won't hurt.

The few times I have spoke up to hikers with dogs had to do with my trying to eat a meal. I threatened to spray one unleashed dog with pepper spray after several attempts to get the redneck to control his dog. His reply was basically "and they'll never find your body if you do".

Others will start with "my dog isn't any worse than .......".

As I said, get use to the rude $hit you have to put up with when it comes to dogs on the trail, unless you are willing to use, in some cases, deadly force.

[Jaybird62]

The few times I have spoke up to hikers with dogs had to do with my trying to eat a meal. I threatened to spray one unleashed dog with pepper spray after several attempts to get the redneck to control his dog. His reply was basically "and they'll never find your body if you do".

Others will start with "my dog isn't any worse than .......".

As I said, get use to the rude $hit you have to put up with when it comes to dogs on the trail, unless you are willing to use, in some cases, deadly force.


That sucks that you have run into some idiots like that....IMO, people with that type of attitude would give you some kind of trouble whether they had a dog or not....

[Wise Old Owl]

The few times I have spoke up to hikers with dogs had to do with my trying to eat a meal. I threatened to spray one unleashed dog with pepper spray after several attempts to get the redneck to control his dog. His reply was basically "and they'll never find your body if you do".

Others will start with "my dog isn't any worse than .......".

As I said, get use to the rude $hit you have to put up with when it comes to dogs on the trail, unless you are willing to use, in some cases, deadly force.

Spray both in the eyes and run!.......:D

[Chip]

The few times I have spoke up to hikers with dogs had to do with my trying to eat a meal. I threatened to spray one unleashed dog with pepper spray after several attempts to get the redneck to control his dog. His reply was basically "and they'll never find your body if you do".

Others will start with "my dog isn't any worse than .......".

As I said, get use to the rude $hit you have to put up with when it comes to dogs on the trail, unless you are willing to use, in some cases, deadly force.

I am sorry that you had this happen. I understand. You don't have to put up with this. Move on if you have to get away from the dog. Spray the dog, spray the owner if they come after you. I work for the Postal Service, I am a letter carrier. We carry dog spray and will use it when necessary. Yes, being in the backcountry is different than in the city. A good book to read is "Trail Safe" by Michael Bane (averting threatening behavior in the outdoors). Friendly advice for the most part is taken well by most dog owners and some of the time not. This book will give food for thought in how to do a risk assessment of a strange confrontation with a dog owner or any other type situation you may find yourself. Granted, sometimes you can't speak your mind and avoidance is your first and only option. :(

[Lostone]

Lot's of me's my's and I's in this thread.

IMHO this thread boils down to respect.


My position, I have absolutely no use for a dog as a pet. People dressing dogs up and dogs visiting Santa for pictures is absolutely ridiculous.

I respect your right to own a dog.

I respect your right to hike with your dog within the allowances of the law.

You should respect the law and follow it as required. Remember we are now writing laws dictating common sense and manners.

You should respect my right of personal space.

You should keep your dog out of shelters and shared spaces.



First and fore most you dog is not a person it does not have the same rights and privileges as one.

[sheepdog]

Lot's of me's my's and I's in this thread.

IMHO this thread boils down to respect.


My position, I have absolutely no use for a dog as a pet. People dressing dogs up and dogs visiting Santa for pictures is absolutely ridiculous.

I respect your right to own a dog.

I respect your right to hike with your dog within the allowances of the law.

You should respect the law and follow it as required. Remember we are now writing laws dictating common sense and manners.

You should respect my right of personal space.

You should keep your dog out of shelters and shared spaces.



First and fore most you dog is not a person it does not have the same rights and privileges as one.
yepper....:D

[kanga]

sharp, sheepdog.

[Jaybird62]

Poll.......All the people who are preaching that you should follow all the laws all the time regarding dogs obey the speed limit LAW ALL the time while driving?

[Jaybird62]

I would vote that all of you are guilty of this, but thats ok I guess, right?

[kanga]

there are only two laws i follow all the time: murphy's law and the law of gravity. everything else was meant to be broken from time to time.

[The Weasel]

there are only two laws i follow all the time: murphy's law and the law of gravity. everything else was meant to be broken from time to time.

:clap:clap:clap

I thoroughly approve of the foregoing statement. If people always followed the law, I'd have to find a real job. But I hope Kanga and a lot of others keep on breaking laws, and even doing it more and more. Us lawyers need the money.

TW

[Nearly Normal]

there are only two laws i follow all the time: murphy's law and the law of gravity. everything else was meant to be broken from time to time.

Partly because they keep making stupid laws to protect the stupid from themselves. Just turns more folks into sheeple.

[Wise Old Owl]

Partly because they keep making stupid laws to protect the stupid from themselves. Just turns more folks into sheeple.


BBaaaaaaahhhh.......:mad:

Oh lets just legislate moraity and honor..... Nevermind.

[sheepdog]

Is this thread still going???


Inconceivable!!!!

[kanga]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[sheepdog]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

[kanga]

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

[Mags]

Never get involved in a post war in Asia...

[kanga]

Never get involved in a post war in Asia...
Never go against hiker trash when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

[Phreak]

You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
lol.. great line!

[Wise Old Owl]

butter cup!

[The Weasel]

Mawwagge is....

TW

[sheepdog]

You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
You've already given away every thing!!

[sheepdog]

Never go against hiker trash when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...
definately one of the three greatest blunders

[kanga]

You've already given away every thing!!
go away or i'll call the brute squad.

[sheepdog]

go away or i'll call the brute squad.
My friend is dead and we were wondering if you could do a miracle.

[Wise Old Owl]

go away or i'll call the brute squad.

http://therawfeed.com/pix/calling_owls.jpg