I was shocked recently when I walked the BMT along the TN/ NC border. Someone has gone paint happy with the blazes and the giant orange "W"s above the water sources. (Actually the water source itself is easily visible from the trail - no sign was needed.) :confused: I am very appreciative of trail maintenance. Have blistered my own hands clearing trails in the past. But, dang there was a lot of paint used on this beautiful ridge.

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I could have taken many more of these type photos.

Good of you to mention this, but much better to bring your concerns to the Trail club itself that actually maintains this section, so they can be aware of this (which they may well not be), and so they can straighten things out.

... (Actually the water source itself is easily visible from the trail - no sign was needed.)....

I find "easily visible" on clear sunny afternoons to be like "day and night" (thought the cliche apropos) from how visible something is (or is not) at dark, foggy, rainy times on the trail. Personally, I don't think bright, clear days are the time to judge, but that could just be me.

Rain:sunMan

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I find "easily visible" on clear sunny afternoons to be like "day and night" (thought the cliche apropos) from how visible something is (or is not) at dark, foggy, rainy times on the trail. Personally, I don't think bright, clear days are the time to judge, but that could just be me.

Rain:sunMan

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Teah, it could be just you.
Weak argument, my assuming friend.
Look at the fog in that picture - it was cold and rainy that entire day. There was no sun -- as assumed. Anyways the water was 15 steps off the trail.
There is rarely, if ever, a need to paint the hell out of all the trees.
You can try to defend that kind of behavior all day long, but I doubt that most outdoors people will agree.
If you need signs, stay on the roadways and keep staring at the GPS.

I find "easily visible" on clear sunny afternoons to be like "day and night" (thought the cliche apropos) from how visible something is (or is not) at dark, foggy, rainy times on the trail. Personally, I don't think bright, clear days are the time to judge, but that could just be me.

Rain:sunMan

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It ain't just you, I agree.

i think if you need to be led around by bright paint in the woods to cope, you should probably stay in the city.

Too much graffiti is not a good thing. It goes along with folks that carve their initials in trees, on signs, or on shelters - just not very natural. So I must disagree with the overuse of paint on trees.

So rainman and takeaknee, what are your thoughts on LNT?



LNT is best practiced in the woods, not on the keyboard.

I would be embarrassed if this was associated with my organization.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7246&d=1256853240

I agree with Kanga on this one but only to a point. If you are on a long dry stretch of trail it is nice to have a marker letting you know that there is a spring over there that you may not be able to see from the trial. I don't know this particular trail so I don't have any idea how frequent water spots are along it but just based on the images posted I think thta these marks are more than excessive. That is definietly not what I mean by a marker letting you know where the water is...it should be something disctrete.

I was shocked recently when I walked the BMT along the TN/ NC border. Someone has gone paint happy with the blazes and the giant orange "W"s above the water sources. (Actually the water source itself is easily visible from the trail - no sign was needed.) :confused: I am very appreciative of trail maintenance. Have blistered my own hands clearing trails in the past. But, dang there was a lot of paint used on this beautiful ridge.

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I could have taken many more of these type photos.


That's not trail maintenance, that's a redneck with a paintbrush.

The apperance bothers me more than the effect on the tree.

Once a few years ago on the Benton Mac / Duncan Ridge Trails in Georgia there was an important water source marked only with a "W" someone had carved into a tree. (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=22143&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=1030&cutoffdate=-1). It was an important water source, none was available for miles in either direction. It was also easy to miss.

Somebody needed to do something about that.

So two years ago someone did by carrying a couple wooden "W" signs, nails, a container of blue paint and a brush to the site during a week-long spring break hike. He found someone had already blazed the beginning of the trail to water, a little too vigorously because the DRT itself is a blue blazed trail and the water trail markings made it look like the DRT split from the Benton Mac at that point. But the trail to water is now signed in both directions (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=37466&catid=member&imageuser=1030)and the beginning of the trail to water is well-blazed. No complaints have been lodged about hikers following the wrong trail so I guess Benton Mac / Duncan Ridge hikers are using their maps. The water source is now plainly marked, can be seen in fog, and it doesn't hurt the eyes to look at it.

And before anyone says anything, the boards weren't nailed flush to the tree. Long nails were used and about 2 inches were left outside the sign to give the tree room to grow. Exactly the same way the FS uses plastic blazes to mark trails in the area. So don't even go there.

A better job could have been done and it wouldn't have been that hard.

i think if you need to be led around by bright paint in the woods to cope, you should probably stay in the city.

Yeah, sure dude. I graduated from the toughest land navigation course on this planet, the STAR exam at Camp McKall, NC. The BMT is a frickin' MAN-MADE TRAIL, what part of MAN-MADE is so difficult for you to understand? I also realize that not everyone has had taxpayer-subsidized training like I've benefited from, they just want to go for hike and not get lost or run out of water...get a life.

Yeah, sure dude. I graduated from the toughest land navigation course on this planet, the STAR exam at Camp McKall, NC. The BMT is a frickin' MAN-MADE TRAIL, what part of MAN-MADE is so difficult for you to understand? I also realize that not everyone has had taxpayer-subsidized training like I've benefited from, they just want to go for hike and not get lost or run out of water...get a life.
i'm missing your point...was there one?:rolleyes:

Yeah, sure dude. I graduated from the toughest land navigation course on this planet, the STAR exam at Camp McKall, NC. The BMT is a frickin' MAN-MADE TRAIL, what part of MAN-MADE is so difficult for you to understand? I also realize that not everyone has had taxpayer-subsidized training like I've benefited from, they just want to go for hike and not get lost or run out of water...get a life.


No. All that is incorrect, except what Kanga said.

Kanga's truthful revelation is good to go - the rest of that post should be stricken from the record. :p

i think if you need to be led around by bright paint in the woods to cope, you should probably stay in the city.

If you are just joining the post the above statement and other statements are correct, except the ones posted by you-know-who & the other you-know-who.

Apparently sniffing orange paint has clouded their judgement.

Sign Sign everywhere a sign / Blocking out the scenery breaking my mind / Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign ...

Stay where its safe city dwellers - let the men do the exploring.

Yeah, sure dude. I graduated from the toughest land navigation course on this planet, the STAR exam at Camp McKall, NC. The BMT is a frickin' MAN-MADE TRAIL, what part of MAN-MADE is so difficult for you to understand? I also realize that not everyone has had taxpayer-subsidized training like I've benefited from, they just want to go for hike and not get lost or run out of water...get a life.
He called kanga a dude :D

Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. Revelation 7:3



Words to live-by, or words to preach-by? :-?

It's an eyesore, that no one can disagree. But passing eyesore and having water is better than LNT and having no water.:-?

Words to live-by, or words to preach-by? :-?
Irrelevant to this discussion; it was just a ****ty unprofessional job, nothing else. LNT or environmental damage not an issue here.

Dos Equis -- These must really help the "where am I" crowd.


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Irrelevant to this discussion; it was just a ****ty unprofessional job, nothing else. LNT or environmental damage not an issue here.

John has this completely surrounded I think. I don't think that even the hardest of the hardcore on either side would disagree that it looks like crap.

Personally I like the idea of knowing where water is when it is scarce. The active word there is scarce---I don't need to know where it is if I can find a spring every quarter mile but if it's 10 or more miles between fill ups and they are not visible from the trail then yes I want a small marker to tell me "hey there's a spring over there..."

I'll stack my navigation/map skills up against anyone or anything. I've been closer the pin via topo and compass as a GPS in head to head competition. But I don't want to miss the only water source for the next 10 for 15 miles because someone decided it was wrong to place some sort of marker on a post or tree so I could find it without pulling the the maps and compass out or looking at my GPS.

John has this completely surrounded I think. I don't think that even the hardest of the hardcore on either side would disagree that it looks like crap.

Personally I like the idea of knowing where water is when it is scarce. The active word there is scarce---I don't need to know where it is if I can find a spring every quarter mile but if it's 10 or more miles between fill ups and they are not visible from the trail then yes I want a small marker to tell me "hey there's a spring over there..."To me it's goes a little deeper and it's a blend of my tree-huggin' tendencies with a conservative core belief that any job worth doing is worth doing right. Put those two together and the orange slop is just plain disrespectful. And that's a problem.

My tree-huggin' self says water sources are important and they should be respected. I further believe that same care should also extend to how they're accessed and marked. The access trail shouldn't become a mudslide ending in the spring, for example. Globs of dayglo indicate a lack of care and concern. If it's marked trashy would it surprise anyone to find trash being left around the spring?

To me it's goes a little deeper and it's a blend of my tree-huggin' tendencies with a conservative core belief that any job worth doing is worth doing right. Put those two together and the orange slop is just plain disrespectful. And that's a problem.

My tree-huggin' self says water sources are important and they should be respected. I further believe that same care should also extend to how they're accessed and marked. The access trail shouldn't become a mudslide ending in the spring, for example. Globs of dayglo indicate a lack of care and concern. If it's marked trashy would it surprise anyone to find trash being left around the spring?

I can't argue with that! Since you actually are a trail maintainer of good repute you've also earned the right to be critical of another maintainer's work. And again, many thanks for all you've done on the Duncan Ridge Trail.

2 inch X 4 inch blazes work just fine. Was the person who did this using a mop? I agree. This is an eyesore

Thanks for all the input. I am the TN/NC Maintenance Director for the BMT. It is all my fault. This used to be a section where people were getting lost with regularity due to poor maintenance and poor blazing, and on this long stretch there were only two water sources. We went overboard to be sure noone got lost or went thirsty. Once the tread gets more defined with use, we will tone things down and remove some of the blazes. Sorry to cause such an uproar. The other problem was that 4-wheelers use the trails on top of the mountain and hikers were following the 4-wheeler tracks off the mountain ridge rather than the BMT and getting lost. Keeping a trail well maintained and able to be followed without getting lost is a real challenge sometimes, especially in areas like this.

The picture with the trees with X's is where people were regularly following the 4-wheeler trail down the mountain. We had to do something to keep people on the correct trail. We even had some of our maintainers accidentally go down the wrong trail at this point and after they discovered their mistake, they did not get back to their cars until very late (and very tired, turning a 7 mile maintenance trip into about a 11 mile trip). We will go back and tone down the blazing soon.

To me it's goes a little deeper and it's a blend of my tree-huggin' tendencies with a conservative core belief that any job worth doing is worth doing right. Put those two together and the orange slop is just plain disrespectful. And that's a problem.

My tree-huggin' self says water sources are important and they should be respected. I further believe that same care should also extend to how they're accessed and marked. The access trail shouldn't become a mudslide ending in the spring, for example. Globs of dayglo indicate a lack of care and concern. If it's marked trashy would it surprise anyone to find trash being left around the spring?


I think we agree but for different reasons...I think I'll let it at that...unless you disagree with that assesment.

I really appreciate all the work you guys have done to keep that trail clear. It was obvious that a lot of work had been done. Sorry I had to call out the paint issues.
Hopefully the trees will not sustain too much damage when that paint is removed.

On the bright side - at least one knucklehead liked the look of it.

We plan to go back up there on Wednesday. We will replace the orange with light blue diamonds at both the Round Top Spring and the one at the gap just north of Hazelnut. I will post pictures afterwards. Again thanks for all the zillions of comments. I think you all will like the resolution. Next time how about contacting us directly. This is easy to do through the www.bmta.org (http://www.bmta.org) website. I did not pick up on this concern until a couple of days ago when a friend brought it to my attention. If I had known much earlier, we could have fixed it a long time ago. I do belong to White Blaze but seldom check out what is being said about the BMT. I will try to do this more regularly. Before the maintenance we did on this section of trail this spring and summer, this section of trail was almost impassible. I inherited a lot of problems on the TN/NC section of the trail when I agreed to take over this maintenance coordination position. We are approaching getting the entire 100 miles of trail in the TN/NC section complete and up to standards, all in the past year. We also are about to publish a much needed trail guide to this section, and when it is out, I will let you all know. It will be available through www.bmta.org (http://www.bmta.org) and also REI and places like that.

Thanks for all the work you and the boys do, Doc. There's a special place in heaven reserved for trail maintainers. Maybe on the top of a mountain with a great view or something....

Before the maintenance we did on this section of trail this spring and summer, this section of trail was almost impassible. I inherited a lot of problems on the TN/NC section of the trail when I agreed to take over this maintenance coordination position. We are approaching getting the entire 100 miles of trail in the TN/NC section complete and up to standards, all in the past year. We also are about to publish a much needed trail guide to this section, and when it is out, I will let you all know....

Wow! Congrats and THANKS for all the hard work. I agree about a special place in heaven for trail maintainers. And apologies for the posters in this thread with reading comprehension problems.

Rain:sunMan

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Oh Snap! :eek:

That is a challenge if I ever heard one... :p

It's remote, it's scary...but you'll know where the water is. :D

Well Rain man...are you gonna prove him wrong? :confused:

By the way-- if you aint got it in you to stay overnight there is a road to drive up to Sandy Gap. Or you could hike up Kirkland Creek to get there. But beware of the bears - no painted trees for those.
There was a mamma and two babies on Brookshire Creek, by-the-by.
And the Copperheads were everywhere, but they may be gone now.

It gets dark in them hills - anything can happen.

I have also passed these large and frequent blazes between Six Mile and Unicoi Gap. I think it is just being an ass to rip the maintainers, rather than sending a thoughtful message to the organization.

Regarding the 'stay in the city' comments, what gives you the right to make assumptions about the skills of others. Do we not benefit if others learn to enjoy, appreciate and then protect our parks and forests?

As a member of the BMTA, and a Trail Maintainer, I welcome all feedback about the state of the trail, but would like to see a more constructive approach.

I have also passed these large and frequent blazes between Six Mile and Unicoi Gap. I think it is just being an ass to rip the maintainers, rather than sending a thoughtful message to the organization.

Regarding the 'stay in the city' comments, what gives you the right to make assumptions about the skills of others. Do we not benefit if others learn to enjoy, appreciate and then protect our parks and forests?

As a member of the BMTA, and a Trail Maintainer, I welcome all feedback about the state of the trail, but would like to see a more constructive approach.

I passed that same spot at night last February. Had no water and only headlights. Would have made a difference to see the blaze for me. Ended up getting bad water out of the ditch at Unicoi Gap and getting sick as a dog.

Goodness, all this anger on this thread.

I received word today that a friend of mine is off his chemo but is still taking a drug to help prevent his seizures. After receiving this news, I then read this thread.

Somehow, the orange paint on trees doesn’t seem important enough to which all this anger is merited. Important? Yes. Enough to get this angry? No.

Just saying.

Goodness, all this anger on this thread.

I received word today that a friend of mine is off his chemo but is still taking a drug to help prevent his seizures. After receiving this news, I then read this thread.

Somehow, the orange paint on trees doesn’t seem important enough to which all this anger is merited. Important? Yes. Enough to get this angry? No.

Just saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5513mXmQbw4

A lot of drama here over some paint that's been scheduled to be fixed.

Deep breaths everyone. Breathe in...breathe out.........breathe in...................
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Breathe out.

I see that the corrections may be made tomorrow but I would offer up possible alternatives/additions as well. Sometimes the light blue symbols are hard to determine as different than white in the dark, so if there was a suitable way to reflectorize them that would be great (if permissible). Those little dots the hunters use to mark trails really do stand out. Or a sign. When on autopilot, I will still home in on signs, particularly if they extend out from the main trunk of the tree.

Thanks for the hard work put into this trail. I have not had the opportunity to travel on it but I expect to someday.

Too much blazing is a common problem among new maintainers, especially new maintainers who are also new to trails in general.

A neat dollar bill sized blaze, placed line of sight apart, quickly blends into the background and is not noticed except when a walker needs to pay special attention, and then it becomes visible.

Oversized, blotchy, irregular shaped blazes are a constant eyesore. I fought against the latter during the years I was an overseer in the 100-mile-wilderness. And do so constantly as stewardship chair of our local land trust trails.

Most maintainers quickly learn to appreciate the wisdom of restraint. But in the interest of full disclosure, I should report that from time to time I also hear complaints from folks who have gotten lost on our trails. I just tell them, sorry about that.

Weary

I, my wife, and my golden retriever are going up there tomorrow to fix the blazes as promised. It will be an 8 mile round trip hike in some pretty difficult territory. But the weather promises to be beautiful. We plan to go in from Beaverdam Bald and first hike out to Round Top and fix things there, then over to the campsite in the gap NE of Hazelnut, then back up hill to my car. By the way, the road up to Beaverdam Bald is now in great shape. It took the road people all summer to fix it up. And, there will stil be lots of flame orange on the trails -- it is the middle of hunting season for hogs and bears.

We did indeed go up to Round Top and the campsite NE of Hazelnut today and fixed the blazes. See the attached pictures. All done. No orange is left, except for all the hunters and hikers wanting to protect themselves from the hunters. It was a beautiful cool crisp crystal clear day today, temp about 60 with a light breeze. A perfect day for a high ridgeline hike. The leaves are off the trees and the views were incredible. I am having trouble uploading the pictures. If they don't show up, you can view them by going to www.cherokeehikingclub.org (http://www.cherokeehikingclub.org) and click on "2009 Maintenance Trips", then the date November 4, 2009, then when you come to that page, again click on the date of November 4, 2009. You will see pictures of the new blue blazes and the missing white X's. Enjoy. When we publish our new trail guide for the TN/NC section of the BMT, I will let you all know through this thread.

looks great. much better.

I've backpacked the section between Sled Runner and Sandy Gap a couple of times recently and did so when there was just some ribbons tied here and there. I didn't have any problems following the trail and found the water down in Moss Gap easy enough. I wouldn't want to nighthike it but in the day it was nice, I even camped for a night on the north side of Moss Gap. I'm glad it got fixed up and some of the paint removed. One of my favorite camps is atop Rocky Top by the big stones. Just haul water up from the Brookshire and you're set.