A post-hike fast and cleanse [Archive] - WhiteBlaze

Lone Wolf

11-12-2009, 12:02

Dont know if this is the section to post it... but to any long distance hikers or people knowledgeable on fasting...

I loaded my body up with the fuel I needed to hike... throwing down 6000-7500 calories a day. And while I was burning most of that if not all of that... I know there has got to be some negative repercussions from all the crap (lots of spam, summer sausage, gallons of whole milk in towns, and every other fatty thing I could get my hands on) I threw in my body day in day out.

I am looking to cleanse myself of some of that build up and I am looking for advice... I am not looking for people to tell me how stupid a fast is or whatever else the typical negative nancies would like to throw into this little discussion.

Thank you
i firmly believe that 14 years of long distance hiking and eating a piss-poor diet even though i was "burning off" the calories, led to my heart attack at a young age

Jester2000

11-12-2009, 12:05

I would fast, in a sense, but not entirely from food. Years ago, for a month each year, I would eat nothing but fruits, vegetables, and legumes. Drank nothing but water. Cut out all drugs, alcohol, tobacco.

The friend and I who did this referred to it as "The Purge." We felt great when the month was over. And then we went right back to all of our bad habits. I highly recommend it.

Manwich

11-12-2009, 12:11

High Fiber Diet, Low Simple Carbs, Low Fats, Tons of Water.

Fasting won't help you at all, your body won't consume your "pollutants." If you're paranoid about them, get a colonic.

max patch

11-12-2009, 12:16

Reid

11-12-2009, 12:19

It's proven that people who fast once a month live longer actually. A liver detox is good too but I've never tried it.

Reid

11-12-2009, 12:21

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fasting+proven+to+live+longer&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

or they other way around

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=8DX8Sub7Js-gnQfg5d2LBQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAYQBSgA&q=fasting+doesn%27t+work&spell=1

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 12:30

interesting post.

i tend to be in the piss-poor diet camp many times, although suspect, like most of us, have had cycles of prolonged times of eating healthy and prolonged times of eating piss poor.

i want to put another spin on the conversation. i've fasted a few times while hiking. ive really enjoyed these "weekend" trips, although most of the time I've only fasted for one day, or even sometimes just one or two meals.

has anyone else fasted while hiking? or, has anyone else fasted, say for an entire weekend, while hiking?

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 12:31

It's proven that people who fast once a month live longer actually. A liver detox is good too but I've never tried it.

show me the money.

Feral Bill

11-12-2009, 13:14

It's proven that people who fast once a month live longer actually. A liver detox is good too but I've never tried it.

If true, this proves nothing. No causation shown.

Also, eating food is a pleasure.

Reid

11-12-2009, 13:21

Archer, J. Fasting Supervision: Is It Necessary? Fasting Journal-Fasting Center International. Found at www.fasting.com/supervision.html (http://www.fasting.com/supervision.html).

Bright, B. Seven Basic Steps to Successful Fasting and Prayer.Found at www.ccci.org/7steps/index.html (http://www.ccci.org/7steps/index.html).

Chaitow, L. Diet, Fasting, and Reduction of Disease. Found at www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/chaitow/chap4.htm (http://www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/chaitow/chap4.htm).

Chaitow, L. Fasting for Health and as an Anti-Aging Strategy- Is it Still Safe? Found at www.healthy.net/library/articles/chaitow/fasting.htm (http://www.healthy.net/library/articles/chaitow/fasting.htm).

Chaitow, L. Fasting, Mono-diets and Raw Food Days.Found at www.healthy.net/library/books/chaitow/chap13.htm (http://www.healthy.net/library/books/chaitow/chap13.htm).

Haas, E. Fasting. Found at www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/haas/detox/fasting.htm (http://www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/haas/detox/fasting.htm).

Kernt, P. et al, �Fasting: the history, pathophysiology, and complications" Western Journal of Medicine (1982) 137:379-99

Kjeldsen-Kragh, J. et al, �Controlled trial of fasting and one-year vegetarian diet in Rheumatoid Arthritis� Lancet (1991) 899-904.

NaturalDoc: Fasting and Health Vacations. Found at www.naturaldoc.com/ (http://www.naturaldoc.com/).

Protein and Nitrogen Homeostasis. Found at http://medtstgo.ucdavis.edu/endo/lecture/metProNit.htm (http://medtstgo.ucdavis.edu/endo/lecture/metProNit.htm)

True, G.N. How Fasting Can Slow You Down. Found at www.netasia.net/users/truehealth/Fasting.htm (http://www.netasia.net/users/truehealth/Fasting.htm).

Reid

11-12-2009, 13:24

only the tops ones work

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 13:52

i know the spiritual implications and rewards of fasting, i understand that many think it is great. i am more interested in seeing proof of your statement that they live longer. the only way in my mind to prove this is through a randomized retrospective clinical trial, and this has not been done. so, to say that people who fast live longer is not confounded. but thanks for the references....they are certainly interesting.

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 13:56

"As a rule hunger vanishes after the first day of a fast."

from your link www.healthy.net/library/articles/chaitow/fasting.htm.

interesting. ive found this to be true as well

emerald

11-12-2009, 14:03

I have wondered about the question posed by the opening post myself and want to believe science is our salavation. Some science as it relates to biology can be nebulous to pick a word which reflects my exasperation especially as it relates to obtaining good information from the Internet.

Consider drinking plenty of water and apple pectin. Anyone who really knows anything about those two ideas, please post.

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 14:04

Haas, E. Fasting. Found at www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/haas/detox/fasting.htm (http://www.healthy.net/hwlibrarybooks/haas/detox/fasting.htm).

this is the best source you provided..thanks

im thinking of fasting some on my next 4 day hiking trip (50 miles)

Mags

11-12-2009, 14:19

If you are trying to cleanse yourself after a long hike..why not
eat lean meat, lots of veggies and whole grains coupled with regular exercise?

If you are doing a fast for spiritual reasons, that's one thing.

Trying to make the body healthy? What I wrote above may work well in the long term.

emerald

11-12-2009, 14:19

I've seen here on many occasions people claiming they are extending their life expectancy by hiking. If hiking requires eating more calories and eating more calories has been demonstrated to decrease one's life expectancy, how is it people believe they are extending their live expectancies by hiking, especially long-distance hiking?

There are individual differences which of course come into play, but what we are talking about in the end is a net gain. How do we net more and is more years more?

John B

11-12-2009, 14:29

It's proven that people who fast once a month live longer actually. A liver detox is good too but I've never tried it.

Or it could be that "detoxifying the liver" is just another myth of pseudo-science.

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47 (http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47)

Plenty of other similar articles on the CDC, AMA, and FDA websites.

Reid

11-12-2009, 14:41

I've never fasted or done the liver detox. I'm not speaking from experience by any means. Spiritual or not, fasting does have positive effects and many researchers have stated that it can expand your life. I have tried to fast before, but didn't make it past breakfast. My mother fasted for 40 days and nights on only the bread muffins and water. She's a hard woman.

DrRichardCranium

11-12-2009, 14:48

Or it could be that "detoxifying the liver" is just another myth of pseudo-science.

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47 (http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47)

Plenty of other similar articles on the CDC, AMA, and FDA websites.

You've obviously been taken in by the Vast Evil Corporate Conspiracy!;)

Here's another link:
http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=fasting

emerald

11-12-2009, 14:49

Reid, isn't what you just stated cutting back on calories, rather than a fast? Maybe you should define what you mean by a fast for us.

The Solemates

11-12-2009, 14:49

emerald

11-12-2009, 14:54

I tend to agree, but maybe the question we seek to answer is how do we go about securing the maximum number of hiking years?

Spokes

11-12-2009, 15:10

Or it could be that "detoxifying the liver" is just another myth of pseudo-science.

http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47 (http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/47)

Plenty of other similar articles on the CDC, AMA, and FDA websites.

John B hit the nail on the head. As mentioned in the article, all your body needs is adequate amounts of water to rehydrate. 'Nuff said.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/30266-water-drinking-beneficial-weight-loss/

Dogwood

11-12-2009, 15:18

Food fasts can certainly be cleansing to specific organs and systems of your body and effect the health of your overall being. The fasts my family usually go on are juice and/clear broth(soup fasts) not a total abstinence from all nourishment. I think this can be somewhat easier on our bodies and our working lifestyles when we do it this way. While I'm on this kind of fast it's not for more than 10 days time and I change my lifestyle slightly to allow for less caloric intake. I also look at fasting not just as abstaining from physical food, but as a combination of related things to abstain from. Like Jester, I combine my food fasts with fasting from the negative media(TV, radio, newspapers, etc.), alcohol, drugs, tobacco, extremely stressful negative engagements, excessive mindless mundane chatter, excessive shopping, etc. If I can, I like to fast while being near nature where there is less everyday commotion from the modern American lifestyle. In some ways I view a long distance hike as a fast! Another way of saying it, is that I look at a food fast as not only a physical act of purging food and the remnants of food from my system, but as one way to be combined with other fasts and/or cleanses for a whole person cleanse. A food fast is a way of taking some of our attention away from having to consume and digest food and place more of our attention on other areas of our being. I know that not everyone believes like this and it may sound too deep for some, but if you find anything you can learn by what I'm saying feel free to take it with you.

From what I understand about food fasts, that primarily cleanse the colon or digestive system, which I think are the main or most common type of cleanses, it is sometimes heplful to include other cleanses(gall bladder, liver, kidney, respiratory, lymphatic system, candida) at the same time or in succession, especially if you have never done a cleanse or are engaged in, or have been engaged in, certain damaging habits or lifestyles. Again, this all depends on how deep you want to get involved with cleanses and if you believe they will help.

Now, after saying all that, I'll tell you, I don't fast nearly as often as I used to! I have found one of the best ways to cleanse is to simply change what I've been eating for 2 wks., IF I'VE BEEN CONSUMING WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE A UNHEALTHY DIET, which I don't believe is that often for me! * I don't believe being on the trail, even while doing a lengthy thru-hike, requires consuming, or is an excuse to consume, what I know to be unhealthy food! * Others may believe differently!

Phoenix, if you feel you want to cleanse your colon from the trail foods you mentioned(sounds like a good idea) consuming while on your AT thru-hike you may want to begin by adopting much of the food recommendations that Mister Krabs, Jester, and Totem suggest. I also suggest that if you want to do a complete food fast you at first do it for a short period, like 1 day and probably not more than 3 days. Anything past that you may want to be in the care of folks that specialize in lengthier cleanses or fasts.

I've personally experienced and witnessed many others having increased mental clarity and energy, increased focus, increased stamina, decreased or the elimination of pain, elimination of bloatedness, weight loss, the abilty to physically do things they were not pre fast capable of, etc, etc etc while being on a lengthier cleanse or just after such a cleanse while under the care of medical practioners that specialize in treating the whole person.

Fasting and cleansing is not some recent New Age hoity toity yuppie/Generation X politically correct food police sponsored vegeterian/Vegan/tree hugger/health nut associated act! Individuals, whole cultures, and religions have been doing cleanses and fasts for 1000's of yrs.

If you want to learn more about cleansing, or cleanses beyond just colon cleansing, I suggest that you ask folks that are knowlegable about these things. You can start off by possibly visiting your local healthfood store or the often competent knowlegable staff at a place like WholeFoods. Tons of books and internet sites have been dedicated to providing a wealth of reliable info on cleanses and fasting also.

In the end, while I think a fast can be helpful, I think it best for your long term well being that you adopt a healthier whole person lifestyle on a full time basis!

emerald

11-12-2009, 15:30

There may be a difference between fast food and a food fast.:-?

Dogwood

11-12-2009, 15:45

[quote=emerald;918819]I've seen here on many occasions people claiming they are extending their life expectancy by hiking.....how is it people believe they are extending their live expectancies by hiking, especially long-distance hiking?

I think those claims originate from the 1000's of MD's and other medical prationers in the medical community that point to the demonstrably large mass of scientific data that pont to exercise as being a key component of a healthy lifestyle. Surprised you asked that question!

If hiking requires eating more calories and eating more calories has been demonstrated to decrease one's life expectancy.....

I also wonder about this Emerald. I've heard scientists say, "eating more(eating more while being on any kind of diet) has been shown to decrease longevity." If I paraphrase, it seems scientists are saying the more calories one consumes the shorter one's life will be. Kinda seems like a great incentive to consume less!

.....but what we are talking about in the end is a net gain....

I think that is how I see it. It's about achieving some restraint in how much one consumes so that there is a net positive effect when looked at it in conjunction with exercise.

Compass

11-12-2009, 19:34

When hiking the quality and health of the food suffers(more is better except sodium). I eat a very healthy diet when not hiking.
I wonder what unhealthy foods people continue to eat when they are not hiking. Bad habits die hard.

garlic08

11-12-2009, 20:00

I've seen here on many occasions people claiming they are extending their life expectancy by hiking.

You've been around here longer than I have, but I haven't seen this yet. If I had, I would have scoffed, too. I believe my thru hikes have always come at a cost to my long-term health, but it's a price I gladly pay for the incredible experiences. I do not ever feel "healthy" after a hike--it always takes some recovery time before I'm back to feeling really good. I've known too many hikers suffer serious problems like heart attacks or glandular failure (thyroid, parathyroid) to think a thru hike is "good" for you. Long term health is definitely one of the things at risk.

Ditto Mags' advice on diet. Follow Michael Pollan's advice in "In Defense of Food": Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. (The rest of the book merely illuminates those three phrases.)

Skidsteer

11-12-2009, 22:16

emerald

11-12-2009, 22:34

I can't and wouldn't want to name names if your question relates to my first sentence quoted. I now wish I had expressed myself differently.

The general concept I was trying to convey is in some ways similiar to thinking drinking will extend one's life expectancy. A little may be a good thing, but beyond a certain point more is less, even harmful.

There were a number of different and possibly related ideas which came together in that post, many of which ought to have been developed to a greater extent and might still be.

I've heard it said that, yes, indeed, running will add years to one's life, but what it adds is offset by the time spent running. If true, one may not be adding time which can be used for anything other than running although it might also be argued one's quality of life benefits.

Maybe I have wandered too far from the thread's intended topic?

Dogwood

11-12-2009, 22:41

When hiking the quality and health of the food suffers...

This may be true for the majority of those consuming typical trail diets, but this doesn't have to approach a falling off the wagon scenario type diet. I see a lot of excellent healthier prepared trail dishes espoused by some of the ladies here on WB, in several of the trail oriented cookbooks, and in Backpacker magazine just for starters. Regular grocery stores hold a wealth of possible healthier trail eating choices. What it takes to eat healthier on the trail is sometimes nothing more than a little creativity, knowledge, and ridding ourselves of some bad food habits.

Shutterbug

11-12-2009, 22:49

Dont know if this is the section to post it... but to any long distance hikers or people knowledgeable on fasting...

I loaded my body up with the fuel I needed to hike... throwing down 6000-7500 calories a day. And while I was burning most of that if not all of that... I know there has got to be some negative repercussions from all the crap (lots of spam, summer sausage, gallons of whole milk in towns, and every other fatty thing I could get my hands on) I threw in my body day in day out.

I am looking to cleanse myself of some of that build up and I am looking for advice... I am not looking for people to tell me how stupid a fast is or whatever else the typical negative nancies would like to throw into this little discussion.

Thank you

I have done the Isagenix 9 day program about six times now. It has helped me lose more than 30 lbs and has cut my cholesterol level in half. Each time I do one of the cleanses, I drop about 10 lbs. Over time, about 5 comes back, so the net weight loss is about 5 lbs.

Sly

11-13-2009, 01:31

I always feel better during and immediately after a hike. It's several months later when I regain the weight I lost during the hike, I feel like crap. Will I live longer? Longer than what?

double d

11-13-2009, 01:47

My suggestion for anyone is get their blood work done and see what their LDL and HDL levels are. Is your body weight under control? How is your diet? Do you work out? And....finally, as my doctor once told me.....there are old people and there are fat people, but there are very few old, fat people.

Jonnycat

11-13-2009, 01:54

Your body can cleanse itself better when it is well-nourished than when it is undernourished.

Agreed. There is nothing healthier than a well-balanced diet (dont' forget the fiber).

Tipi Walter

11-13-2009, 08:59

Periodic fasting is probably one of the best health insurance plans out there, and it doesn't cost a cent. Problem is, most people are so addicted to food and eating that when the word FASTING is mentioned they jump around and start screaming against it.

We use food for nourishment but mostly we use it for emotional security and as oral attempts to fill a void. This is obvious by looking at all the fat-encrusted lard-butts addicted not only to their Big Macs and cheesecakes but to their automobiles--the car/junk food combo is producing a whole generation of aspiring Darwin Awards. Enough on that.

It's hard to fast because food is a stimulate and we love to eat. It's doubly hard to fast when out on a backpacking trip for obvious reasons. About 2 years ago I went on a 9 day fast and on Day 7 pulled a 3 day backpacking trip into the mountains of NC. The best scenario for fasting would be to set up a basecamp somewhere, like on a pretty creek, and stay put for several days while brewing herbal teas and fasting.

Expecting to do any real backpacking while fasting can be a challenge, and I know when I climbed out of the valley I was in on my 9th day I was a bit dizzy and "protesting inwardly".

Fasting for one day a week or 3 days a month is good, interspersed with days of healthy eating. People who regularly fast can tell you the benefits, and some are subtle, and I imagine they're around to offer their insights. It's hard to believe, but many people go a whole lifetime w/o a single day of fasting unless they're so sick they can't eat. It's just a life skill we should all have in our kit. Like Siddartha says in Hesse's book: "I can think, I can wait, I can fast." Three skills desperately needed in this day and age.

Spokes

11-13-2009, 09:57

There's a snake oil saleman around every corner.

There is no scientific evidence that fasting detoxifies the body! It is, therefore, nothing more than a "feel good" procedure.

So if it makes you feel good, do it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16282567

T-Dubs

11-13-2009, 10:29

Your body can cleanse itself better when it is well-nourished than when it is undernourished.

This surely opens up a can o' worms there, doesn't it? Well nourished is one of those things for which I've been searching for some time. What I've come to believe is this type of advise
Just go high fiber, low fat & no simple carbs is about 1/3 correct.

There is absolutely no evidence fiber has any dietary benefit. The low fat theory of disease from the '50s is wrong in many aspects. The part of simple carbs, or any carbs for that matter, is great advise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4

http://www.fibermenace.com/fibermenace/fm_transcript.html

There are 10 points in this link summed up by Taubes on the problems with the American diet. It is based on the inflammation hypothesis rather than the lipid version. When you read that 75% of cardiac patients have 'normal' readings it does make one wonder if fats are really the problem.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=3654291&page=1 <--Taubes

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/majority-of-hospitalized-heart-75668.aspx <--UCLA study

I eat almost no vegetation, high saturated fat, moderate protein. What I don't eat is vegetable oils, processed foods, anything from a box or anything labeled as a 'super food'. I also believe less than 1% of what the 'experts' from the food/drug industries tell me what is in my best interest.

**someone always asks about my 'blood work' as a predictor of health. My triglycerides are at 51, HDL 71. A nice ratio indicating very little inflammation. Total cholesterol, despite what GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer tell us, is really meaningless.

TWS

Reid

11-13-2009, 13:01

People usually think that fasting means going without food completly and that's not the case.

HIKERJEN

11-13-2009, 14:49

When in a fasting state, your body burns muscle tissue, so you lose muscle mass (strength), but your body holds on to the fat as long as possible. I would never fast while hiking!! I work too hard in the gym lifting weights to burn up the muscle I've gained by fasting!!
As to "cleanses", mother nature made the human body self-cleansing- it takes care of its self.

Mags

11-13-2009, 15:25

All these interesting theories.

I'll stick to eating healthy the way that has worked for 100k yrs of our species history and exercising. Besides, I'd rather hike, ski or even do a vigorous workout than fast..it is more fun! :D

But I am a Luddite and not very smart about all this stuff.

In all fairness, I can see how fasting can work for spiritual reasons. Two good friends observe the fast before Yom Kippur. They use the day of fasting (usually coupled with a solo hike) to think about the past year and find it very enlightening.

Health reasons? Meh..... Again, I think in the long term it is better to eat healthy and exercise (not very popular in hiking circles. Better to discuss how to shave 2 ounces off a pack! ;)). But see above about being a Luddite.

Besides, my Italian roots show too much. Italians? Fasting ?!?!?!? Not gonna happen.... :p

emerald

11-13-2009, 15:49

What constitutes eating healthy is an evolving and related concept, but it's not the primary focus of this thread which may not appeal to everyone, may require a certain amount of knowledge going in and a desire to do some reading and research if it's to go anywhere. Those who are not interested need not post to opt out.

Mags

11-13-2009, 16:34

What constitutes eating healthy is an evolving and related concept, but it's not the primary focus of this thread.

It's not that evolving. Eat rich food, you are going to get fat. Don't work, you'll get fat. People have known that for a looooooooooooooong time.

Why do you think gout was called "The rich man's disease" or the "Disease of royalty"? :)

AFAIK, I the OP was asking how to cleanse the system...fasting was just one idea he had, As others have pointed out, it is bunk science in the long term.

I am looking to cleanse myself of some of that build up and I am looking for advice...

Perhaps we should just say "no real science here" instead. :D

I'll shut up now as I am repeating myself (as I have a tendency to do!)

emerald

11-13-2009, 17:02

I'll shut up now as I am repeating myself (as I have a tendency to do!)

Oh, I thought you were just trying to get the last word.:)

Dogwood

11-13-2009, 19:32

There is absolutely no evidence fiber has any dietary benefit.... T-Dubs, have you arrived at this conclusion based on one writer's book that he is tryng to selll? And, I'm not convinced if even the writer is saying, "there is no evidence that fiber has any dietary benefit." What I would take from the book is that some of the claims that have been made about the benefits of fiber are questionable at best. With anything we place in our bodies there can be contradictions or undesired side effects if we don't consume it wisely. This can certainly be applied to fiber intake.

Personally, before I totally abscond from fiber, which would be difficult since it's naturally found in many foods, I would like to see some data that says fiber has no dietary benefit. I would also caution anyone to be careful what is being said by Mr. Monastyrsky. Having no dietary benefit, even if that was true, doesn't mean fiber intake has no benefits. For now, me and my family will continue to follow the American Heart Associations, American Cancer Society, and the American Medical Association's recommendations that we consume fiber.

Total cholesterol, despite what GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer tell us, is really meaningless.... Really! Tell that to your doctor or American Medical Association! You don't have to believe the pharmacuetcal industry. There are medical journals, papers, and studies devoted totally to complications and treatments surrounding high cholesterol.

JAK

11-13-2009, 20:42

I like to fast now and then just to build up my will power.
I think my record so far is about 21 hours. :)

Surplusman

11-13-2009, 21:51

All this stuff on TV about "colon cleansing" potions is something right out of the Patent Medicine era of the late 1800's. If you really want some colon blow, how about a lot of apple cider or prune juice? Better bring a thick stack of outdoor catalogs to read while you're talking into the big white telephone.

T-Dubs

11-13-2009, 23:07

.....will continue to follow the American Heart Associations, American Cancer Society, and the American Medical Association's recommendations.

Tell that to your doctor or American Medical Association! You don't have to believe the pharmacuetcal industry. .

The first 2 links below are to a site that has alternative recommendations from the AMA, ACS, AHA, et. al. I would also recommend viewing this video--http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4362041487661765149# Gary Taubes explanation on how those organizations, with good intentions, have made many of us fat, diseased and unhealthy. It's a long one, so skip the first 20 mins. or so of evidence that diet change resulted in the fattening of various populations. He's a science geek.

We eat fiber because an English doctor studying in Africa decided we should. Rather than blame (and eliminate) refined carbohydrates for our health problems he advocated the inclusion of lots of fiber. There is not much real science behind it.

http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/4/5/the-case-against-fruits-vegetables.html

http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/4/17/screw-you-fiber.html

As to cholesterol, again those health organizations followed incomplete science in the 1950s, made recommendations and we are now living proof it was wrong. They can't very well call for a 'do over' in the light of recent discoveries. Heart attacks and CHD has gotten worse over the last 50 years. Fewer are dying, a tribute to our medical intervention, but there not fewer incidences. Cholesterol helps to diminish inflammation, the real cause of vascular disease. Total cholesterol between 200-240 results in better overall health, less mortality. The Big-Pharms want everyone to get their reading now down below 180. $$$$$

http://www.canibaisereis.com/2009/09/19/low-cholesterol-certainly-not-healthy/

http://freetheanimal.com/2008/02/cholesterol-con.html

Ask who benefits from the Standard American Diet. Certainly not the public at large. Drug companies that keep us all on some sort of medication--sure. Food corporations that feed us cheap crap, making us sick and in need of 'healing' medications (see above)--sure. Look into alternatives, as the current way of eating is killing us and remember to follow the money trail.

In a future thread maybe we can discuss how the Vegetarians are destroying the Planet!

T-W

On a completely unrelated note, I have a relief/contour map issued by the Army Corp of Engineers hanging in my shop of Tom's River, NJ.

Reid

11-14-2009, 11:21

I really don't think fasting is bunk science. We may can find opposing views but the vast majority of research done of fasting has proven that it is beneficial. As for healthy eating I have to say I am concerned with the direction that America is headed, especially the rural towns off the beaten path. We have about 3 mom and pop places to eat here in my town and they all serve mostly fried foods and saturated fats. But ALL of the major fast food resturants have moved into town in the past 15 years. There is no where to eat right now that I can think of that has a broad menu of healthy food. I eat at home. I've eaten mccdonadls three times in my life.

Reid

11-14-2009, 11:34

What about "apple a day keeps the doctor away?"

Tilly

11-14-2009, 11:45

I'm late to this fasting party but here is my 2 cents...

When fasting, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are going completely without calories. Usually fasters may drink some sort of whole juice or eat some fruits once or twice a day. Stay hydrated. I usually drink some tea or something, too. Don't over work yourself when you are fasting, ie intense exercise or anything.

Another big thing is that you have to wean yourself on and off a fast. A few day before you want to start, start gradually cutting down your food intake. Likewise, when coming off a fast, gradually add food back into your routine over a few days, don't just gorge the day you're done with a fast.

I've just read a few books about fasting and have done some short term fasts. I tend to think that as far as food and habits go, things that people have done over the centuries aren't relatively bad you in moderation, ie drinking coffee, beer, carbs, dairy (depending on your background) etc. Anyway, people of all cultures have fasted for one reason or another for many years. Unless you have a medical condition where you need to eat consistently, fasting really isn't bad for you. In fact I wonder if fasting is good for you just to give your body a break from having to digest all the time, which consumes lots of energy and creates free radicals. Just a thought.

emerald

11-14-2009, 12:59

What about "apple a day keeps the doctor away?"

I was refering to that earlier when I mentioned pectin and will endeavor find a link worthy of addition to this thread. It may not happen today.

Fiddleback

11-14-2009, 13:03

i firmly believe that 14 years of long distance hiking and eating a piss-poor diet even though i was "burning off" the calories, led to my heart attack at a young age

LW is correct. The bad fats still affect your cardiovascualr health even though you are running a net caloric deficiet. Best thing you can do is to eat as healthy as possible.

Ummm...Lone Wolf is half-right. Exercise strengthens a healthy heart. Poor diet, to include the kind of food and total calories (too much or too little), weakens a heart and makes it more susceptible to stress, exercise or otherwise.

FB

mudhead

11-14-2009, 17:51

http://www.usaweekend.com/09_issues/091115/091115thinksmart-health-celeb-diet.html

"Eat to live, don't live to eat."

"If you can't pronounce it, don't eat it." (I am unable to pronounce saag.)

"People exceed the feed limit."

Blah. Blah. Blahblah.:)

weary

11-14-2009, 19:06

If true, this proves nothing. No causation shown.

Also, eating food is a pleasure.
And when one gets as old as I am, one is probably foolish to quit any remaining pleasant activities.

Weary

T-Dubs

11-14-2009, 20:32

And when one gets as old as I am, one is probably foolish to quit any remaining pleasant activities.

Weary

You don't have to actually quit, just change how you go about it. I no longer have regular meal times. I eat when I'm hungry, I stop when I'm full. This practice leads into this:

http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008/2/27/intermittent-fasting-101-how-to-start-part-i/

In my case, it's not planned, it just happens when you change how you go about things, even slightly.

TWS

weary

11-14-2009, 22:12

....
There is absolutely no evidence fiber has any dietary benefit. .....
Well, there is this study:
"Vegetable, fruit, and cereal intake and risk of coronary heart disease among men" by Eric Rimm in the February 14, 1996 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association found the more fiber you eat the less your risk of heart disease (275:447). This study examined food intakes of 51,529 men in various medical fields in the Health Professionals Follow-up Study. Those in the lowest fiber group ate 12.4 grams of fiber daily and those in the highest group ate 28.9 grams. According to the authors, "These results support current national dietary guidelines to increase dietary fiber intake and suggest that fiber, independent of fat intake, is an important dietary component for the prevention of coronary disease." "...the positive association between saturated fat intake and coronary heart disease is almost entirely explained by lower fiber intake among men who consum ed more fat." Of the three main contributors to total fiber intake--vegetable, fruit, and cereal--cereal fiber was found to be most strongly associated with a reduced risk of heart attacks."

Yeah, I know. Such statistics are not always evidence that a cause and effect relationship exists. But there have been scores of research papers in the medical literature suggesting the benefit of fiber. Almost no research suggests more fiber doesn't translate into better health.

Then there is my personal experience. I get uncomfortable constipation if I don't eat lots of fiber.

Weary

smak

11-14-2009, 23:12

from a medical background (and first-hand stories from other medical professionals) i would advise HIGHLY AGAINST the lemon juice and cayenne pepper cleanse.

although in general, i would agree that a clean could be healthy for the body - the "detox" sounds like an american made word for hype. people detox from crack cocaine and alcohol - addictive materials that the body cannot use for any good - but detox from meat? i think that's a stretch. but, i suppose - refined sugar is an addiction too, so maybe it does count.

i've yet to have the desire or willpower to eat only fruits, vegetables, and legumes and drink only herbal teas and water with lemon for weeks on end - but i'm certain it WOULD make your body feel fantastic!

while i'm hiking, i do my best to mix dehydrated veggies into whatever i can (ramen does taste better with some carrots, peas, and corn, although i admit, it IS STILL ramen) - and while i do plenty of PB, tuna, salmon, and legumes, i've never craved jerky or spam. i am an egg freak tho - and on future hikes will be heading out with 4-6 HB and peeled eggs for the extra nutrition.

T-Dubs

11-15-2009, 12:40

Then there is my personal experience. I get uncomfortable constipation if I don't eat lots of fiber.

Weary

Increasing your fat intake would take care of that.

http://www.fibermenace.com/reports/transcript.html
(I like this site as he uses reports from health organizations for support, AHA, AMA, etc)

cereal fiber was found to be most strongly associated with a reduced risk of heart attacks."Eating cereal/grain is not healthy for individuals or the Planet:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/the-vegetarian-myth/

weary

11-15-2009, 16:55

....Eating cereal/grain is not healthy for individuals or the Planet:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/the-vegetarian-myth/
Frankly, I'm not terribly impressed by the evidence you provided us about grains, nor with the excerpts from the book he praises. I saw nothing of a factual nature that I didn't already know.

I did see evidence that Mike Eades and the author of the anti-vegetarian book he endorses are folks susceptible to cult beliefs.

Vegan beliefs have always struck me as a bit nutty. But equally nutty is the idea that we are exclusively carnivores. The evidence is rather overwhelming that, like bears, humans thrive best on a diet of meat and potatoes.

Weary

Tipi Walter

11-15-2009, 17:21

Meat lovers and the Beef lobby or whoever should remember that there are around 300,000,000 vegetarians in India. There's even some in the good old US of A.

T-Dubs

11-18-2009, 10:27

Meat lovers and the Beef lobby or whoever should remember that there are around 300,000,000 vegetarians in India. There's even some in the good old US of A.

The crude prevalence rate of diabetes in urban areas is about 9% and that the prevalence in rural areas has also increased to around 3% of the total population. If one takes into consideration that the total population of India is more than 1000 million then one can understand the sheer numbers involved. Taking a urban-rural population distribution of 70:30 and an overall crude prevalence rate of around 4%, at a conservative estimate, India is home to around 40 million diabetics and this number is thought to give India the dubious distinction of being home to the largest number of diabetics in any one country. http://www.diabetesindia.com/diabetes/itfdci.htm

Deadpete

01-09-2010, 02:56

I was reminded of Owsley Stanley by this thread, and again by some comments from here - http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/the-vegetarian-myth/.

the following brief articles on climate chage written by low-carb devotee Owsley Stanley: http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506009
http://www.thebear.org/essays2.html#anchor506010

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley
Stanley believes that the natural human diet is a totally carnivorous one, thus making it a no-carbohydrate diet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-carbohydrate_diet), and that all vegetables are toxic.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley#cite_note-4) He claims to have eaten almost nothing but meat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meat), eggs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_%28food%29), butter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter) and cheese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese) since 1959 and that he believes his body has not aged as much as the bodies of those who eat a more "normal" diet. He is convinced that insulin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin), released by the pancreas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas) when carbohydrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrates) are ingested, is the cause of much damage to human tissue and that diabetes mellitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_mellitus) is caused by the ingestion of carbohydrates.
Stanley received radiation therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_therapy) in 2004 for throat cancer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_and_neck_cancer), which he first attributed to passive exposure to cigarette smoke at concerts,[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley#cite_note-5) but which he later discovered was almost certainly caused by the infection of his tonsil with HPV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV). He credits his low carb diet with starving the tumor of glucose, slowing its growth and preventing its spread enough that it could be successfully treated despite its advanced state at diagnosis.

Nean

01-09-2010, 16:46

Dont know if this is the section to post it... but to any long distance hikers or people knowledgeable on fasting...

I loaded my body up with the fuel I needed to hike... throwing down 6000-7500 calories a day. And while I was burning most of that if not all of that... I know there has got to be some negative repercussions from all the crap (lots of spam, summer sausage, gallons of whole milk in towns, and every other fatty thing I could get my hands on) I threw in my body day in day out.

I am looking to cleanse myself of some of that build up and I am looking for advice... I am not looking for people to tell me how stupid a fast is or whatever else the typical negative nancies would like to throw into this little discussion.

Thank you

Have you heard of the 4 dozen raw oyster and 12 pack cleanse?:o
I tried it last week and it works great!!:)

emerald

01-09-2010, 20:02

Stanley believes that the natural human diet is a totally carnivorous one...

On the other hand, some biochemists think he's wrong and have presented evidence to the contrary. Both likely aren't right. The issue isn't settled and some insights may be had by "following the money."

kayak karl

01-09-2010, 20:06

Have you heard of the 4 dozen raw oyster and 12 pack cleanse?:o
I tried it last week and it works great!!:)
so your ready for your colonoscopy :D

Transient Being

01-13-2010, 13:11

DrRichardCranium

01-13-2010, 13:52

Looks like some people are defensive of their three squares. All I can say is don't knock it if you haven't tried it. I've been on one day fast many times and three days a couple of times with distilled water. It's not easy, but rewarding. After the third night, piss in a bottle. It will be the stinkingist darkest urine. If you let it sit for a couple days, their will be about 1/2 inch of mucus that settles to the bottom. That tells me that my body is cleansing some pure poison out of my body. .

Could it also be that those toxins were produced during your fast, and were not there originally?

It seems to me that the body has mechanisms for cleaning out toxins, and those work better if your body is well-nourished. Deprive your body of nourishment, and you might start producing/accumulating more toxins than usual.

There seems to be no hard clinical evidence that starvation removes toxins. People who are into fasting fads have repeated the mantra that fasting removes toxins, over & over to each other, without supplying any clinical evidence that this is the case.

One example: if you've ever had too much to drink the night before (ie, accumulated toxins from alcohol poisoning), you know that you cannot fast your way out of a hangover. Your body will get back to its normal healthy state only after you EAT.

Nourishment = Good.

Transient Being

01-13-2010, 14:30

How many times have you fasted, Doc? I bet they didn't teach you about fasting in med school did they? What a shocker! Let me guess, they taught drugs and surgery. No holistic medicine courses? Or even a course on nutrition? Did you know medical doctors aren't very healthy as statistics go. Try telling my body, which, by the way feels great, how bad fasting is.

JAK

01-13-2010, 14:35

"As a young boy growing up in Cimmeria, Conan the Barbarian would train himself by going as many as 30 days without food."

lol. one of my favourite quotes.

Losing a little muscle mass now and then, through fasting or hiking, isn't going to hurt you, and might even help. Most days people over consume protien in order to accompish their long term goals of gaining or maintaining muscle mass and proper weight, so permitting yourself to lose a little now and then is quite natural, and probably a good thing.

I don't believe in any of these food like supplements though, whether they are for cleansing, weight loss, weight gain, muscle gain, fat burning, or whatever.

Eat food. Avoid food like substances.
If you want to fast for a day or two, then don't eat food, but always avoid food like substances.

So what about natural extracts and stuff. Sure, but get them from natural sources, and take them in some natural traditional form, like tea. Same with vitamins and minerals. Avoid excessive and unnatural processing.

Eat real food, where you can still find it.
Try fasting now and then, for some balance.

DrRichardCranium

01-13-2010, 14:48

I am not a Doctor. That's just my username.

By the way, I agree with healthy eating, exercise, and other preventative means for health. I do NOT subscribe to the idea that we should forget all that & just rely on drugs & surgery. That's fire-fighting, not fire prevention.

However, I also don't accept that denying nourishment to your body will help it clean itself out. I will entertain the idea when someone shows some hard clinical evidence for it, but I won't just accept it just because it's a popular fad in some circles.

Transient Being

01-13-2010, 14:55

Fair enough. And yes, stay away from food like substances. If it comes in a box, don't eat it. I'm not some kind of health guru, by the way. Nor am I the epitome of health. I have to remind myself just like everybody else to eat healthy and sometimes I forget. It's so hard to be healthy these days. I guess thats why 67% of americans are overweight. It's like the old saying goes. I've seen fat people and I've seen old people, but not many old fat people.

Reid

01-13-2010, 15:29

JAK

01-13-2010, 15:37

If I was to fast, for 24 hours, maybe 36, it wouldn't be so much for cleansing.
I think cleansing is better served by eating stuff like fruit juices and watery oatmeal.

The benefit I see in fasting isn't so much the cleansing of the bowels so much as giving your digestive system a bit of a break, and letting your body switch over to burning more fat for a day or two. At low activity levels, if your body is used to burning fat, you should be able to provide most of the energy without going into full starvation mode. You shouldn't have to lose much muscle mass at all, and your blood sugar level shouldn't have to get dangerously low.

Consider for example, a person with a basal metabolism of 1600 calories...

The brain needs 400 calories of carbs everyday.
The rest of the body, at low activity, say another 1600 calories.

Of the 2000 calories/day required, how long does it take to deplete your carbs and go into a state of ketosis? It depends on the individual. At low activity levels, up to 25% VO2Max, other than the brain, up to 85% of the energy can be provided by fatty acids, and the other 15% from carbs. This means initially your carbs would be depleted at about 650 calories per day. For most people, it would be higher, because they are used to eating and burning more carbs than they should. So they would need to end their fast sooner. Anyhow, getting back to the dude that only needs 650 calories of carbs per day, he might be able to go 2 full days before going into a state of ketosis. Even then, your body can produce the glucose from fatty acids before turning to protien, so he might even be able to go 3 days on a full fast before starting to lose protien.

It depends on the individual how long you should fast. Interestingly, the people that cannot fast as long, are also the ones most likely to benefit. Same as those that can't exercise as hard or as long are more likely to benefit from exercise.

So it varies, but fasting at low levels of activity, to encourage your body to switch over more to fats, then perhaps longer to let your body convert some fats into glucose, then coming off the fast, that is probably very beneficial now and then. Going further into protien ketosis, probably not.

For cleansing, if that was my goal, I would go with more of an oatmeal and plain tea and fruit juices sort of fast. The protien supply would be limited, so I still wouldn't do it for more than a day or two. I think walking or hiking could also help with the cleansing, and you could combine walking or hiking with such a diet for a day or two. At some point you are going to have to provide the body with the protien it needs though, especially if the hiking was more strenuous. I'm not sure of the point of fasting, except as a means to eventually return to a healthy balanced diet.

Similarly, I think it is good to feast now and then, i.e. eat more than you need.

So:
Most days, strive for a healthy balanced diet, consistent with your activity.
Now and then, maybe once a month, it might be ok to feast, but still healthy food.
Now and then, maybe once a season or once a year, a full or partial fats might be good.

Everything in moderation, including moderation.

JAK

01-13-2010, 16:24

The more general question is how long should you go between meals. I think the idea that 5 meals a day is better than 3, or 1, is overstated. If your body is overly dependant on carbohydrates, you have to eat more often. If you are less dependant on carbohydrates, you should naturally be able to go longer between meals, and it shouldn't be difficult or harmful to do so.

The other part of the equation is maintaining adequate protien intake. If your body is better adapted to burning fatty acids, then you might conserve carbs longer, and at some point start converting fat to carbs and ketones to conserve protiens. In this way you might go several days before your body starts using muscle and organ protien as a source of energy. However, even at low activity levels, your body will still need protien at some point in order to maintain muscles and organs and other tissue. I am not sure to what degree it can scavenge protien from muscles in order to maintain more vital organs, but when you start doing stuff like that, your are truly starving.

However, it is very much an overstatement to say that dieting, or skipping a meal, or skipping a day, or glycogenis, or fatty acid ketosis, or protien ketosis, is neccessarily the same thing as starvation. Those things can happen naturally, and safely, without neccessarily being in a state of starvation.

Depleting and replacing glycogen stores is not starvation, as long as you don't bonk.
Depleting and replacing body fat is not starvation, as long as you stay within reason.
Even allowing muscle mass to fluctuate is not starvation, as long as you have enough.
Losing mass from more vital organs. That I would call starvation.

Starvation is bad, but fasting is not the same as starvation.