View Full Version : Spelunker's Body will remain in cave.
john gault
11-27-2009, 19:28
This sounds strange, but seems like they are going seal up a popular cave destination and leave a spelunker's body in that cave (Nutty Putty cave) where he died. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ut_cave_rescue_death
This has been going on for some time and the guy was alive for most of the ordeal, but of all I've read it only leaves me with a lot of questions:confused:
http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/11/spelunker_freed_after_19_hours.html
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The second link led to an article which was not particularly well worded. It could lead the readers to believe that the man had been rescued.
The Caver (spelunker is a scientist) died after 28 hours head down in an area 18" wide and 10" high.
Rescuers worked for hours but ran out of time.
They said they would work on the recovery starting today..no urgency required.
They had him semi loose temporarily when a natural rock anchor point failed and he wedged again.
Pray for his family and especially for his rescuers...nothing worse than failing to rescue. NOT THEIR FAULT. HE got himself there.
Lots of "close the cave " noise. Would you "close the trail"?
BlazeWalker
11-27-2009, 21:42
Wow. I wouldn't think that they would seal the cave over a death. It is a rather strange story though...
Oh. I did not say impossible..just very unlikely.
There are cases of large rock falling, nothing but a plaque on the rock.
Some cases cave diving..too dangerous to retrieve.
Never a first, or even third choice.
1. Family
2. Friends
3. Publicity
4. Not to offend, but LNT.
even in rescue.
Caves are sensitive enviroments.
Wise Old Owl
11-27-2009, 22:02
its a terrible fate that has been repeated in american history for a hundred years. Recent lititigation and insurance claims forced many a landowner to close the best of caves or obscure the opening so folks cannot find it.
The NSS (National Speleological Society) has Nature Reserves to help protect and maintain access to caves, as does the SCCI (Southeastern Cave Conservancy, Inc) in the South.
The SCCI also offers Free to the landowners, liabilty insurance, liability release forms, and help with cleanups etc. They also own 57(?) caves.
Nothing better than a 56 degree hike...climb, crawl, whatever in the summer when hiking outside means 98 degrees, 98% humidity, and 97% bugs...just bring light.
bigmac_in
11-27-2009, 23:14
The Caver (spelunker is a scientist)
A spelunker is NOT a scientist. Caver and splelunker are pretty much interchangeable.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spelunker
Sad story anyway.
DuctTape
11-27-2009, 23:45
Sad news. I had been following this, and it sounded like he'd make it out just fine.
harryfred
11-27-2009, 23:52
He died doing what he did.
Let me leave this world on the trail or under a truck.
ChinMusic
11-27-2009, 23:54
He died doing what he did.
Let me leave this world on the trail or under a truck.
Man, I hope I don't get bit to death.......
A spelunker is NOT a scientist. Caver and splelunker are pretty much interchangeable.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spelunker
Sad story anyway.
Well, that is not true. Nor is it true that a spelunker is a scientist. If you ask me, or any member of the NSS, they will tell you the difference between a caver and a spelunker. To keep it brief it seems like this is a spelunker, and all those whom responded to try to help him during the rescue are cavers, and those whom continue to work during the recovery are cavers.
Spelunkers are the yahoos who decide they want to go into a cave they have heard about and look around a little bit. Cavers are experienced people who have enough sense to look into what they are going into, and make sure they never to go into a place they cannot get themselves out of.
bigmac_in
11-28-2009, 08:58
Well, that is not true. Nor is it true that a spelunker is a scientist. If you ask me, or any member of the NSS, they will tell you the difference between a caver and a spelunker. To keep it brief it seems like this is a spelunker, and all those whom responded to try to help him during the rescue are cavers, and those whom continue to work during the recovery are cavers.
Spelunkers are the yahoos who decide they want to go into a cave they have heard about and look around a little bit. Cavers are experienced people who have enough sense to look into what they are going into, and make sure they never to go into a place they cannot get themselves out of.
I'll give you that one - pretty good description of the two.
john gault
11-28-2009, 10:10
Spelunkers are not Speleologists http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/559211/speleology
As for Tanks definition, I've heard that before. I'm not much into caving, but it sounds like a typical point-of-contempt among people of similar interests, sort of like how some in the hiking community look down on Day-hikers, they're not real hikers:D
BTW, this guy was a medical student at the University of Virginia:
"Family members described Jones as an outdoors lover and experienced caver who was expecting the birth of his second child next year.
He had explored many caves and maneuvered is way through many tight spaces before," the family said in a statement issued late Thursday.
For the past two years, the St. George native was attending medical school at the University of Virginia, hoping to pursue a career as pediatric cardiologist. Jones, his wife Emily and their 13-month-old daughter had come home to Utah for the Thanksgiving holiday and to share the news that another baby is expected in June." http://news.aol.com/main/nc/article/john-jones-dies-after-getting-stuck-in/786236
john gault
11-28-2009, 10:36
I found a very interesting page on the history of the term "Spelunker":
Spelunk is actually an old middle english word for cave, but it went out of use in the 1600's, but the adjective form continued until ~mid 19th century and then was redefined in the 1960's (see below from this link http://members.socket.net/~joschaper/wspelunk.html)
Sometime in the 1960s (according to Joe Walsh, and probably during an earlier upsurge of interest in venturing underground), spelunker began to take on the connotation of rank amateur, while those "in the know" but not degreed scientists began to refer to themselves as cavers. Steve Knutson (editor of American Caving Accidents) makes the same distinction in a 1995 article given at a Risk Management conference:
..."Note that I use the term "spelunker" to denote someone untrained and unknowledgeable in current exploration techniques, and "caver" for those who are."
Spelunker, at this time, carries with it the image of a tennis-shod explorer, caving in cotton clothing by the light of a hand held flashlight, with butane lighters for backups. They are notorious for descending freehand, on cotton or manila rope, with little thought for the ascent. Pushing Coleman lanterns in crawlways is another favorite spelunker trick. Spelunkers differ from novice cavers in that (usually) the novice is attempting to learn correct techique. According to Clive Keen of British Columbia, "calling someone a spelunker up here is a serious insult." In the States, one wishing to be taken seriously avoids the word in self-reference, corrects others who accuse him or her of being a spelunker, and proudly displays the bumper sticker, "Cavers Rescue Spelunkers."
This is my take on it all: Spelunker = Day hiker; Caver = Section Hiker; Speleologists = Thru-hiker:D;)
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A range of experience exists within those groups of hikers. There are seasoned and well-prepared day hikers and through hikers who are complete novices with little idea what they are doing.
Spelunker + Novice day hiker
Caver= Experienced hikers; Day, section and Thru.
Speleologists= Cyber hikers
"Cavers rescue Spelunkers"
Apparently they are actually considering sealing the victim in the cave.
He was/is beyond the surveyed cave in an unknown/too tight area.
Sad for his family.
Sad to lose this cave, and IMHO the wrong choice.
papa john
11-28-2009, 12:28
You won't have to worry about catching me in a cave. Gives me the willies just watching these people force their way into ever smaller spaces.
You won't have to worry about catching me in a cave. Gives me the willies just watching these people force their way into ever smaller spaces.
Same here. I am content being far less worthy than even the most touristy spelunker.
While I enjoy caves, and throughly enjoyed the "wild cave tour" at Mammoth Cave NP years ago, I will say that being in very tight places underground does make me very nervous. I can't help but imagine a small earthquake, and the minimal movement of rock that could trap you. I'll stick to the already explored and mapped caves, thank you very much.
Walking Dead
11-28-2009, 15:02
Wow. I wouldn't think that they would seal the cave over a death. It is a rather strange story though...
It's being sealed with the body still in place. They were unable to retrieve him.
MintakaCat
11-28-2009, 15:05
When I first heard this story it reminded me of that 1951 Kirk Douglas movie "Ace in the Hole."
Being from this area and having gone through this exact cave a few years ago, there are some things here that need to be cleared up. First of all, this cave has a history of people getting stuck and needing rescued as does a few other caves in the area. Second of all if the man was unable to be extracted while alive, he won't be able to be extracted while dead, at least not in one piece. That being said, I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to go into that cave with a body in it as the cave maintains a temperature of 80* year round with 100% humidity. If the body is to remain in the cave, the cave needs to be sealed. Also, this particular type of cave should be sealed because of the number of inexperienced people who enter it. To go through this cave you remain on your stomach the entire time. The chance of individuals getting stuck is high and the cave either needs to be sealed or entrance to the cave needs to be regulated.
cruisaire
11-28-2009, 20:41
I'm a Professional Geologist AND an amateur caver (Spelunker's are rescued by Caver's!). Regarding leaving the body in, remember Floyd Collins.
Captain Blue
11-28-2009, 21:02
I am a life member of the National Speleological Society and have been caving for over 20 years. To those in the know there is a big difference between the terms "caver" and "spelunker". They might look the same in the dictionary but their use is much different in practice. There is no good analogy to the types of hikers on the AT. It is pretty easy to tell a non-caver by how they use the term "spelunker".
Captain Blue
AT 6,500 Miler
bigmac_in
11-28-2009, 21:12
I found a very interesting page on the history of the term "Spelunker":
Spelunk is actually an old middle english word for cave, but it went out of use in the 1600's, but the adjective form continued until ~mid 19th century and then was redefined in the 1960's (see below from this link http://members.socket.net/~joschaper/wspelunk.html)
Sometime in the 1960s (according to Joe Walsh, and probably during an earlier upsurge of interest in venturing underground), spelunker began to take on the connotation of rank amateur, while those "in the know" but not degreed scientists began to refer to themselves as cavers. Steve Knutson (editor of American Caving Accidents) makes the same distinction in a 1995 article given at a Risk Management conference:
..."Note that I use the term "spelunker" to denote someone untrained and unknowledgeable in current exploration techniques, and "caver" for those who are."
Spelunker, at this time, carries with it the image of a tennis-shod explorer, caving in cotton clothing by the light of a hand held flashlight, with butane lighters for backups. They are notorious for descending freehand, on cotton or manila rope, with little thought for the ascent. Pushing Coleman lanterns in crawlways is another favorite spelunker trick. Spelunkers differ from novice cavers in that (usually) the novice is attempting to learn correct techique. According to Clive Keen of British Columbia, "calling someone a spelunker up here is a serious insult." In the States, one wishing to be taken seriously avoids the word in self-reference, corrects others who accuse him or her of being a spelunker, and proudly displays the bumper sticker, "Cavers Rescue Spelunkers."
This is my take on it all: Spelunker = Day hiker; Caver = Section Hiker; Speleologists = Thru-hiker:D;)
.
Nah -everyone knows section hikers are much smarter and more knowledgeable than Thru-hikers. :D
Bulldawg
11-28-2009, 21:39
Nah -everyone knows section hikers are much smarter and more knowledgeable than Thru-hikers. :D
Yeah, when you do the same section over and over and over sometimes, just 'cause it's close to home; you know that you are much more knowledgeable about that section of trail than any thru hiker that has ever came through there. So much more knowledgeable that documentary producers contact you for advice about the trail:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek::eek:
bigmac_in
11-28-2009, 21:45
Yeah, when you do the same section over and over and over sometimes, just 'cause it's close to home; you know that you are much more knowledgeable about that section of trail than any thru hiker that has ever came through there. So much more knowledgeable that documentary producers contact you for advice about the trail:D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes::eek::eek:
You mean like that system administrator guy? He seemed OK . . .:D
Bulldawg
11-28-2009, 21:49
You mean like that system administrator guy? He seemed OK . . .:D
I thought he was a network administrator??:-?:-?:-?
JoshStover
11-28-2009, 23:50
My thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Thats so terrible to be that young and starting a new family...
Patrickjd9
11-29-2009, 11:23
Another issue was that he was not a small guy, 6', 190 pounds.
I was only 20 pounds heavier at the same height in my early 20s when I declined an invitation to take up caving after deciding that I was too big to do it safely.
bigmac_in
11-29-2009, 12:41
I thought he was a network administrator??:-?:-?:-?
You are correct, how did you remember that?