"stealth" camping

[gruntledpainter]

I know that there are some areas along the AT where tenting in an area that is not a designated campsite (SNP, smokies) is officially not permitted.

So I am wondering: what are the penalties if you are caught by a park ranger tenting, or "stealth" camping far enough off the trail not to be seen? A fine?

Or is this even likely?

[Bryce]

It appears that most of the no camping areas are sensitive areas and suggest that campers might damage those areas. Please seriously consider accepting those reasons and camp in designated areas only.

[gruntledpainter]

It appears that most of the no camping areas are sensitive areas and suggest that campers might damage those areas. Please seriously consider accepting those reasons and camp in designated areas only.

Just a question for curiosity's sake. I would plan on staying in shelters.

[wcgornto]

Big fines in the White Mountains re: distance from trail, distance from water, presence of smoke rings, etc. These can add up quite a bit. I could have been hit with such fine when I camped next to water just of of the trail near Pinkham Notch. Of course, as hard as it was raining, there wasn't much chance for a ranger to come snooping.

[Mountain Wildman]

Should I pitch a tent?

You can usually pitch a tent near a shelter, but your guidebooks will also indicate the locations of designated campsites at intervals along the Trail. Those usually have flat, cleared places to pitch tents and are near a water source; they rarely have a privy. Some may have “tent platforms” or pads where you can pitch and tie down a free-standing tent. Some campsites in heavily used areas require a lot of work by clubs to keep them pristine, and consequently a fee (usually $8 or less) is charged.
Can I find my own campsite?

In some areas, particularly the national forests of the Virginias and the southern Appalachians, “dispersed camping” is allowed. Dispersed camping means you can choose your own place to camp, but it carries with it a special responsibility of leaving no trace: You must be more careful to minimize your impact in pristine areas. Choose a site with no sign of previous use. Avoid places that show the beginnings of frequent use—those still have a chance to recover if left alone. Set up tents on durable surfaces, such as dead leaves or grass, well apart from each other and at least seventy paces from water. Avoid trampling plants and seedlings.

Should I build a fire?

Campfires create the worst visual and ecological impact of any backcountry camping practice. Building fire rings pockmarks pristine woodlands with blackened rocks, piles of ash and charcoal, blackened cans, and unburned wood. Vegetation disappears and soil packs down around the fire ring. Soil becomes sterile, which retards plant recovery. Hikers trample vegetation while looking for wood, and, when they find it, remove woody debris critical to a healthy ecosystem.
Leave No Trace principles encourage you to go without a fire. Use a backpacking stove instead. If you do intend to build a fire, check your A.T. guidebooks for fire restrictions along the Trail; some areas do not permit fires at all. Keep in mind that forest fires are always a potential hazard along the A.T., especially during early spring, summer, and fall.
Where fires are permitted, build them only in established fire rings. Don't add rocks to an existing ring. Keep fires small. Burn only dead and downed wood that can be broken by hand—leave saws and axes at home. Never leave a fire unattended, and never build a fire on a windy day.
Erase your campfire when you leave. Drown it with water, then stir the ashes. Feel for heat with your hand to ensure it is out. Remove unburned foil and plastic and pack them out. If you used an existing fire ring, scatter the ashes and camouflage the burned area with organic matter. Finally, scatter unused firewood you gathered in the forest.

From the Appalachian Trail Conservancy web-site

[JAK]

I know that there are some areas along the AT where tenting in an area that is not a designated campsite (SNP, smokies) is officially not permitted.

So I am wondering: what are the penalties if you are caught by a park ranger tenting, or "stealth" camping far enough off the trail not to be seen? A fine?

Or is this even likely?Depends on how stealthy you are. It it easier to be stealthy if you bivy rather than tent, and don't sleep and cook in the same place. It is good practice to be able to bivy anywhere, just in case you have to, even if you are following the rules.

[JAK]

i.e. Is crawling into a sleeping bag to rest and warm up the same as camping?

[Tipi Walter]

It appears that most of the no camping areas are sensitive areas and suggest that campers might damage those areas. Please seriously consider accepting those reasons and camp in designated areas only.

There's 500,000 acres in the Smokies and of those there's probably no more than 500 acres designated as backcountry camping. So, are you saying the rest of the vast acreage are sensitive areas?

[waywardfool]

So I am wondering: what are the penalties if you are caught by a park ranger tenting, or "stealth" camping far enough off the trail not to be seen? A fine?

"[Anybody that breaks any rule] ...shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be subject to a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment not exceeding six months, or both, and be adjudged to pay all the costs of the proceedings."

This per 16 U.S.C. § 403h-3 : US Code - Section 403H-3

[slugger]

I know that there are some areas along the AT where tenting in an area that is not a designated campsite (SNP, smokies) is officially not permitted.


You can Tent anywhere in SNP you just need to get a free back-coutry camping permit when you enter the park and pass the ranger station, other then that just follow Leave No Trace.

[Rain Man]

Or is this even likely?

I would hazard a guess that it is not likely. Therefore, it is by necessity left up to the good character and morals of the individual hiker and the hiking community.

As the saying goes, "reputation" is what you do when others are looking, "character" is what you do when no one is looking.

As far as the SNP, camping is NOT allowed everywhere. The rules are written for the most part requiring you to camp certain distances away from Skyline Drive, from water, from the AT, and so forth. It's such a narrow park, that it is often difficult to find a suitable spot meeting the definitions.

But these are minor things. You can have a GREAT hike all the same.

Rain:sunMan

.

[fiddlehead]

I almost always stealth camp.
I eat dinner and then walk another 4 or 5 miles until i either sleep near the trail because it's dark, find a place with a great view, or just go into the woods somewhere cause i'm tired.
No big deal.
I learned a long time ago to always buy tents that blend in with the scenery.

[JAK]

Don't worry so much about what others think.
Just do what you think is right.

You, the earth, the big man upstairs.
**** the rest of us.

[Wise Old Owl]

You can Tent anywhere in SNP you just need to get a free back-coutry camping permit when you enter the park and pass the ranger station, other then that just follow Leave No Trace.

In general, most campers decide which camp ground to stay at after they have chosen which hike they would like to undertake. In the Shenandoah National Forest, many campers choose to do remote camping in off-trail campsite huts. If you choose this backpacking method, it is critically important that you study a map so that you understand where and when campsites will be available to you during your hike. Camping without shelter or away from a designated spot can lead to personal injury and/or steep fines.

Source

http://www.essortment.com/travel/campingsitesvi_snjk.htm

[Cookerhiker]

In general, most campers decide which camp ground to stay at after they have chosen which hike they would like to undertake. In the Shenandoah National Forest, many campers choose to do remote camping in off-trail campsite huts. If you choose this backpacking method, it is critically important that you study a map so that you understand where and when campsites will be available to you during your hike. Camping without shelter or away from a designated spot can lead to personal injury and/or steep fines.

Source

http://www.essortment.com/travel/campingsitesvi_snjk.htm

Where is Shenandoah National Forest? And what do you mean by "off-trail campsite huts?" Are you referring to shelters? All the shelters I can think of in Shenandoah National Park are "on-trail" - either the AT or a blue-blazed trail. Are you referring to the PATC cabins (http://www.potomacappalachian.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=38&Itemid=51)?

[stumpknocker]

I almost always stealth camp.
I eat dinner and then walk another 4 or 5 miles until i either sleep near the trail because it's dark, find a place with a great view, or just go into the woods somewhere cause i'm tired.
No big deal.
I learned a long time ago to always buy tents that blend in with the scenery.

This is the best "leave no trace" type of camping I know. The only thing I would add that I also do, is that I almost never stay near water.

[Wise Old Owl]

Where is Shenandoah National Forest? And what do you mean by "off-trail campsite huts?" Are you referring to shelters? All the shelters I can think of in Shenandoah National Park are "on-trail" - either the AT or a blue-blazed trail. Are you referring to the PATC cabins (http://www.potomacappalachian.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=38&Itemid=51)?

I will make some calls Monday.

[fiddlehead]

This is the best "leave no trace" type of camping I know. The only thing I would add that I also do, is that I almost never stay near water.

I agree.
Staying near water presents a few problems: It's colder, dew is more prominent, you have a problem with people finding you or seeing your camp, animals much more abundant, no views to wake up to (or go to sleep to)
Unless it's near one of the beautiful lakes in the Sierra or CO or similar.

[lazy river road]

So this is a topic that I have been curious about as well for quite some time. Im hikeing the LT this summer and im bringing a hammock. Some sections are "dispersed camping areas" while other areas are "shelter only". I really dont want to sleep in shelters. So what is the best way to stealth camp. By walking 4-5 miles past shelter 200-300 hundred feet into woods off trail. By the time it starts to get dusk, are rangers patrolling the trail? And even so would they notice a hammock deep in the woods. As I understand from this thread their are some serious fines to this pratice if caught, so the their are some risks, does any one have stories of actually getting caught by Rangers? If I never build a fire ring and praticed LNT how is that looked upon amongst the hiker community? I am only asking bc this will be my first long distance hike and im curious?

[Wise Old Owl]

I spoke to a NPS representative - Shanendoah allows stelth camping provided you follow the rules under wilderness camping and LNT, common sense, and have a permit.

The information that was posted about the forest was out of date.

[Toolshed]

I have a dark brown hammock and it is difficult to make out across 30 yards of puckerbrush- especially if you are looking for a tent profile.
I say just go ahead and do it. I don't think rangers get off the trail and start bushwacking around dusk, unless it is a known stealth site (such as by a stream or creek), and then probably wouldn't be stealth site any longer.
I used to be pro-regulations, but the older I get the more I think "screw it". Walking off-trail 50-75 yards and hanging a hammock isn't going the scar the land or create havoc with the ecosystem. HYOH - Just be curteous to other hikers.

[double d]

There's 500,000 acres in the Smokies and of those there's probably no more than 500 acres designated as backcountry camping. So, are you saying the rest of the vast acreage are sensitive areas?

Finally a voice of reason with regards to land management and the Smokies. Lets just remember that we, the American people own the Smokies, not government agencies.

[sixhusbands]

I spoke to rangers in both the Adirondacks and the Whites about this topic. Both were very serious about the affects of "stealth" on the fragile environment and how long an area takes to recover from over use. ..... take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but footprints.... that about says it all!

[Jack Tarlin]

Not counting the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Golden Gate Bridge, Great Smoky Mountains National Park is the most visited National Park in the country, which is why the Park Service so strongly regulates where people can overnight.

The intent of the people who run the park is not to restrict the personal freedom of Park visitiors. Instead, the good folks who administer the Park are trying to make sure that some of these 9,000,000 plus annual visitors don't damage the Park during their visit.

Just because the American people technically "own" these very special places doesn't give them the right to mistreat them. :-?

[Toolshed]

Not counting the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Golden Gate Bridge, Great Smoky Mountains National Park is the most visited National Park in the country, which is why the Park Service so strongly regulates where people can overnight.

The intent of the people who run the park is not to restrict the personal freedom of Park visitiors. Instead, the good folks who administer the Park are trying to make sure that some of these 9,000,000 plus annual visitors don't damage the Park during their visit.

Just because the American people technically "own" these very special places doesn't give them the right to mistreat them. :-?
Yeah, but Jack Let's face it, 99%+ of those 9,000,000 people probably never get more than 5 minutes form the nearest coke machine, with most probably never even stepping off the tarmac.

[Tinker]

Not counting the Blue Ridge Parkway and the Golden Gate Bridge, Great Smoky Mountains National Park is the most visited National Park in the country, which is why the Park Service so strongly regulates where people can overnight.

The intent of the people who run the park is not to restrict the personal freedom of Park visitiors. Instead, the good folks who administer the Park are trying to make sure that some of these 9,000,000 plus annual visitors don't damage the Park during their visit.

Just because the American people technically "own" these very special places doesn't give them the right to mistreat them. :-?

Right. LNT and responsible people aren't the only ones who stealth camp. Any place out of sight is good for a real party hound. I remember setting up a tent off trail after dark years ago on the Long Trail only to find out next morning that we'd set it up over someone's makeshift latrine. :mad:

[Jack Tarlin]

Toolshed:

Even if we take your figure at face value, well 1% of 9,000,000 is still 90,000 people.

That's an awful lot of stealth campsites, garbage, sanitation problems, fire risk, etc.

And remember, even if we're only talking about 1% of the annual visitors to the Park, that's 90,000 potential problems every single year.

These numbers are overwhelming, which is why NPS quite rightly regulates where people can overnight. True, some of these "hardened" sites aren't all that attractive and could sure stand some improvement, but the Park administrators would rather centralize visitor impact, and in so doing, they minimize the damage. In short, you cut down on the number of places where people can stay, you also cut down on the number of places they'll muck up.

Letting 90,000 people do whatever they wished wherever they wish in the Smokies would be a disaster.

[~Ronin~]

Toolshed:

Even if we take your figure at face value, well 1% of 9,000,000 is still 90,000 people.

That's an awful lot of stealth campsites, garbage, sanitation problems, fire risk, etc.

And remember, even if we're only talking about 1% of the annual visitors to the Park, that's 90,000 potential problems every single year.

These numbers are overwhelming, which is why NPS quite rightly regulates where people can overnight. True, some of these "hardened" sites aren't all that attractive and could sure stand some improvement, but the Park administrators would rather centralize visitor impact, and in so doing, they minimize the damage. In short, you cut down on the number of places where people can stay, you also cut down on the number of places they'll muck up.

Letting 90,000 people do whatever they wished wherever they wish in the Smokies would be a disaster.

I agree with you Jack, but I don't think Toolshed was implying that even 1% of the 9 million visitors were staying overnight in the park. He just meant that most people who visit the Smokies (or any other National Park for that matter) don't come anywhere near the backcountry. But you are right, if 90,000 people did stay overnight in the park and not have any consideration of LNT principles, it would cause alot of problems.

Lets not forget that there are designated backcountry campsites (not shelters) in the Smokies, just not on the AT. It all depends on whether one wants to walk downhill at night to get to them and then back uphill in the morning to get back to the AT.

[RollingStone]

So this is a topic that I have been curious about as well for quite some time. Im hikeing the LT this summer and im bringing a hammock. Some sections are "dispersed camping areas" while other areas are "shelter only". I really dont want to sleep in shelters. So what is the best way to stealth camp. By walking 4-5 miles past shelter 200-300 hundred feet into woods off trail. By the time it starts to get dusk, are rangers patrolling the trail? And even so would they notice a hammock deep in the woods. As I understand from this thread their are some serious fines to this pratice if caught, so the their are some risks, does any one have stories of actually getting caught by Rangers? If I never build a fire ring and praticed LNT how is that looked upon amongst the hiker community? I am only asking bc this will be my first long distance hike and im curious?

Part of the problem with the LT is that some of it transsects private land which is where there are areas that camping of any kind are not allowed in. However, most of the LT you can camp in off trail. For more info see the GMC's LT guidebook or the website at www.longtrailhiking.info

[JustaTouron]

i.e. Is crawling into a sleeping bag to rest and warm up the same as camping?

Probably.

Might get away with it if it is the middle of the day, extremely cold, and you are awake.

If it is dark out, of normal temps for that time of year, or you are asleep, you are gonna have hard time convincing the judge you weren't camping.

[Lone Wolf]

i.e. Is crawling into a sleeping bag to rest and warm up the same as camping?

no. not at all

[MJW155]

Some people are way too paranoid. Do you really think that in forest of up to 500,000 acres, some random park ranger is going to find you? Even if you do get caught, you can probably talk your way out of a ticket as long as you show respect to the ranger. At most you are going to get a ticket. You are not going to be put in jail for 6 months, I don't care what the statute says. If worst comes to worst and you get caught, just tell the ranger you didn't realize how late it was getting and didn't want to get caught on the trail alone at night so you set up camp. Now if you are setting up camp at 1 PM and you get caught, then yea you getting fined. As long as you do it close to dusk, which you should be anyway; you will be fine.

[Wise Old Owl]

I spoke to rangers in both the Adirondacks and the Whites about this topic. Both were very serious about the affects of "stealth" on the fragile environment and how long an area takes to recover from over use. ..... take nothing but pictures and leave nothing but footprints.... that about says it all!

This interests me because tent spots and some shelters are occationally moved when the impact of AT hikers is too much for the spot, its erased! The team wipes out all evidence and covers it with dead fall and picks a new spot. So what is the problem....? After a year unless you had a gps you would have no idea that was the original tent spot.


Some people are way too paranoid. Do you really think that in forest of up to 500,000 acres, some random park ranger is going to find you? Even if you do get caught, you can probably talk your way out of a ticket as long as you show respect to the ranger. At most you are going to get a ticket. You are not going to be put in jail for 6 months, I don't care what the statute says. If worst comes to worst and you get caught, just tell the ranger you didn't realize how late it was getting and didn't want to get caught on the trail alone at night so you set up camp. Now if you are setting up camp at 1 PM and you get caught, then yea you getting fined. As long as you do it close to dusk, which you should be anyway; you will be fine.

My experience is that if you are on a trail that supports a golf cart, jeep, or AWD, go ahead be paranoid. I wish I could find the picture I took of two rangers deep in the woods both 200 lbs plus and trying to catch up to hikers.....in a golf cart.:o

[Johnny Appleseed]

In shenandoah I did some. One was on some old road, and I ALWAYS waited tell dark before the tent went up. I found a real cool hut/cabin in SNP that had an entrance w/ a covered porch and a fireplace w/ wood and dryer lint as the fire starter-I did not know dryer lint made a good firestarter tell then, and talk about light. It was soo cool I could moved right in.

[Johnny Appleseed]

Get a green / brown tent. I did this before I hiked AT, as I was gonna city camp/save on hotel money. Then it just transferred to the woods. I use the eureka zeus. just a bit of a soft green to blend in, but good enough for me, as its not blue or orange.

[JustaTouron]

Some people are way too paranoid. Do you really think that in forest of up to 500,000 acres, some random park ranger is going to find you? Even if you do get caught, you can probably talk your way out of a ticket as long as you show respect to the ranger. At most you are going to get a ticket. You are not going to be put in jail for 6 months, I don't care what the statute says. If worst comes to worst and you get caught, just tell the ranger you didn't realize how late it was getting and didn't want to get caught on the trail alone at night so you set up camp. Now if you are setting up camp at 1 PM and you get caught, then yea you getting fined. As long as you do it close to dusk, which you should be anyway; you will be fine.


Others have already discussed the environmental impact.

Here is the other worst thing that could happen.

Its not that YOU get a ticket.

What would be worse is if the SNP got tired of thru hikers breaking the already liberal exception that exists for thru-hikers and no one else and required thru-hikers to make reservations like everyone else. That would mean that before you left Springer or Baxter you would need to know exactly what day you would be arriving at SNP, get there a few days early and you wait in town (burning money) until your reservation date. Get there a day late and you pay for a shuttle around the park and you can finish your hike the following year as a sectional.

The fact is anytime you take a "the rules don't apply to me" attitude you make things worse for the next hiker who comes along.

Don't tip the waitress, you aren't just gonna get a dirty look, the next hiker isn't gonna get decent service.

Don't make the suggested donation (or close to it) for a shuttle ride and the rides stop being available for later hikers. Or the suggested donation now becomes a much higher "set fee." Higher because now the person has to pay all kinds of taxes, insurance, and fees.

Don't follow the rules in a free hostel (or a budget one) and it closes to hikers.

Don't buy anything at the store that held your UPS package for free and then walk accross the street to buy the same item for 50 cents less, then that business might not be willing to hold a UPS package for the next hiker.

And guess what ... the majority of hikers that are day, weekend, sectional etc, don't care tham much if there is a nominal fee for a trail usage permit and many would support it if means a better park area. I am still taking my kids camping for the weekend if I had to shell out $50 in trail fees. And so would most of the people I know. How many thru hikers would no longer be able to afford to hike the AT if there was a $10 per day trail fee? And if they need to hire more rangers to enforce the rules because the honor system doesn't work, then you can expect to see more trail fees in the future.

LNT doesn't just dig hole when you poo and don't litter. It also means don't have a negitive impact on those people around you.

I will get off my soap box now.

[MJW155]

Others have already discussed the environmental impact.

Here is the other worst thing that could happen.

Its not that YOU get a ticket.

What would be worse is if the SNP got tired of thru hikers breaking the already liberal exception that exists for thru-hikers and no one else and required thru-hikers to make reservations like everyone else. That would mean that before you left Springer or Baxter you would need to know exactly what day you would be arriving at SNP, get there a few days early and you wait in town (burning money) until your reservation date. Get there a day late and you pay for a shuttle around the park and you can finish your hike the following year as a sectional.

The fact is anytime you take a "the rules don't apply to me" attitude you make things worse for the next hiker who comes along.

Don't tip the waitress, you aren't just gonna get a dirty look, the next hiker isn't gonna get decent service.

Don't make the suggested donation (or close to it) for a shuttle ride and the rides stop being available for later hikers. Or the suggested donation now becomes a much higher "set fee." Higher because now the person has to pay all kinds of taxes, insurance, and fees.

Don't follow the rules in a free hostel (or a budget one) and it closes to hikers.

Don't buy anything at the store that held your UPS package for free and then walk accross the street to buy the same item for 50 cents less, then that business might not be willing to hold a UPS package for the next hiker.

And guess what ... the majority of hikers that are day, weekend, sectional etc, don't care tham much if there is a nominal fee for a trail usage permit and many would support it if means a better park area. I am still taking my kids camping for the weekend if I had to shell out $50 in trail fees. And so would most of the people I know. How many thru hikers would no longer be able to afford to hike the AT if there was a $10 per day trail fee? And if they need to hire more rangers to enforce the rules because the honor system doesn't work, then you can expect to see more trail fees in the future.

LNT doesn't just dig hole when you poo and don't litter. It also means don't have a negitive impact on those people around you.

I will get off my soap box now.

I like how compare examples of being a jerk/cheapskate to camping in a secluded area and not bothering anyone.:rolleyes: You forgot to add if you get arrested and sucker punch a cop, he's going to treat the next guy he arrests more aggressively.

People that stealth camp aren't doing it to break rules because they think they don't apply to them. They are doing it because they want to feel free to hike/backpack at their own pace and not be bothered w/ having to cover 8 miles after lunch in a rainstorm because "the rules" say they need to be at the next shelter. They also want privacy and seclusion. That's why they go backpacking in the first place. It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

As I said in my original post, I'm talking about setting up camp alone near dusk and not bother anyone. I'm not talking about backpacking w/ a bunch of people, setting up a campsite in the middle of the afternoon and having a huge bonfire and making noise until midnight. If you are stealth camping and get caught, you are not stealth camping.

[Mags]

Stealth camping is not necessarily illegal. It just means finding a campsite away from an established area.

On the Appalachian Trail, it is quite legal in many areas.

In the West..we call that "routine. :)

[JustaTouron]

I like how compare examples of being a jerk/cheapskate to camping in a secluded area and not bothering anyone..

Please identify the section of the AT with a camping restriction that you would consider a "secluded area".

The AT is an unpaved pedestrian super highway with heavy traffic. And the camping restriction only exist on the the most overused sections of that overused highway. With the possible exception of the last 100 miles in Maine there is absolutely nothing secluded about the AT.

The rules exist for a reason. If you don't follow them, then you are taking the "rules don't apply to me" attitude.

And if you want to camp in a secluded area....pick a trail other than the AT.

[JustaTouron]

Stealth camping is not necessarily illegal. It just means finding a campsite away from an established area.

On the Appalachian Trail, it is quite legal in many areas.

In the West..we call that "routine. :)


I realize Stealth camping has two means.....

1. camping legally in a LNT manner with the intent of not being seen or bothered

and

2. camping illegally.

My rant was direct only at those engaged in the second.

[MJW155]

Please identify the section of the AT with a camping restriction that you would consider a "secluded area".

The AT is an unpaved pedestrian super highway with heavy traffic. And the camping restriction only exist on the the most overused sections of that overused highway. With the possible exception of the last 100 miles in Maine there is absolutely nothing secluded about the AT.

The rules exist for a reason. If you don't follow them, then you are taking the "rules don't apply to me" attitude.

And if you want to camp in a secluded area....pick a trail other than the AT.


LOL. Pedestrian super highway with heavy traffic? Are you kidding? Did you properly merge with the traffic on the trail? The "rules" exist because of revenue. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. To think otherwise is just being ignorant. I'm so glad the US Department of Agriculture has the best interest of the forests in mind. :rolleyes:. Those guys definately tell the truth and have no hidden agenda. Just make sure you don't get trampled to death when they build a new road while you are hiking. Just because a rule exists doesn't mean it's not inane. It's OK to question things and not be a sheep.

I love how we tear down forests, destroy swamps, drain lakes, build dams, create roads, buidings, malls, ect. without any thought to it. But god forbid I should set up a tent for 10 hours 200 feet away from the AT and "destroy" the habitat. Meanwhile, while I'm sleeping, the 2 fat guys at the shelter that I didn't want to go to are eating and thowing the garbage on the ground w/ no consquences. Of course, not to be outdone, their wives and 5 kids have set up a huge bonfire which they forgot to put out and have the radio blasting until 1 AM. But it's OK because hey at least they followed the rules.

[The Old Fhart]

MJW155-“…The "rules" exist because of revenue. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. To think otherwise is just being ignorant. I'm so glad the US Department of Agriculture has the best interest of the forests in mind. . Those guys definately tell the truth and have no hidden agenda. Just make sure you don't get trampled to death when they build a new road while you are hiking. Just because a rule exists doesn't mean it's not inane. It's OK to question things and not be a sheep….”

To say the rules exist because of revenue displays a lot of ignorance-that isn’t so. The rules exist to protect the land from thoughtless people who feel they can do anything without any regard for the environment or the people who will hike the trail after them.

While you obviously don’t hold the Dept of Agriculture in high regard, they oversee the USFS, which generally has the more liberal rules on public land. The US Department of the Interior oversees the NPS who has much more restrictive rules because of their legal mandate. A lot of the Appalachian National Scenic Trail is directly or indirectly under the control of the NPS like GSMNP and SNP.

There are about 220 separate organizations or owners to various parts of the A.T. and while many of them use the NPS rules for land management, many do not. Some have stricter rules, for example Baxter State Park. The people who believe that it is legal to camp anywhere outside of NPS controlled land are badly mistaken or ignorant of the rules/laws governing those sections of the trail. For instance, the entire states of Maryland and Connecticut only allow camping at designated sites.

The trail is mainly cared for by thousands of volunteers from the various trail clubs (about 30) along the length of the A.T.. Instead of complaining about the condition of the trail, join some of the trail crews to help maintain the trail. That is a much more constructive way to show your concern for the trail. It is way more positive than sitting back in your chair in front of a computer and bitching about the condition of the trail. In the process you might actually learn something about the A.T. and its history.

[JAK]

As I see it, authorities are far from infalible, whether they have ulterior motives or not.
They allow some things, like canister stoves, and people driving their cars and trucks to trailheads, and yet they don't allow other things, like sleeping under a rock.

I'll make my own choices. If they catch me, I'll pay.

[JAK]

People need to be responsible, regardless of the rules.
If you are only looking at the rules you are not doing your job.

[MJW155]

The trail is mainly cared for by thousands of volunteers from the various trail clubs (about 30) along the length of the A.T.. Instead of complaining about the condition of the trail, join some of the trail crews to help maintain the trail. That is a much more constructive way to show your concern for the trail. It is way more positive than sitting back in your chair in front of a computer and bitching about the condition of the trail. In the process you might actually learn something about the A.T. and its history.


I lived 15 mins. from the trail unti I was 33. I know plenty about the AT. At what point did I "bitch about the condition of the trail"? I voluteered every year during the summer while I was a Boy Scout to help keep the trail maintained. But I am not a sheep that just says OK when someone who is getting paid and has probably never camped more than 10 times in his life tells me I can't camp somewhere. ESPECIALLY when these so called "guardians" are using ATV's and golf carts to get around. I practice low impact camping and I am responsible about what I do. If I am camping w/ more than 1 other person, I do stay in degnisated areas because I realize that 3 or more people will cause ecological damage. But if I am by myself or with 1 person, I make the choice that's best for me.

[The Old Fhart]

MJW155-"I lived 15 mins. from the trail unti I was 33. I know plenty about the AT....But if I am by myself or with 1 person, I make the choice that's best for me." If you know plenty about the A.T., you haven't shown any of it here. As for your concern for the A.T. your "I make the choice that's best for me" says it all. If you know better yet still set a bad example for others by flaunting the rules, you aren't any better than the people you mention that trash the trail in other ways.

[JAK]

Better to care for the Land, and each other.

[JAK]

Carr: Them clothes got laundry numbers on them. You remember your number and always wear the ones that has your number. Any man forgets his number spends a night in the box. These here spoons you keep with you. Any man loses his spoon spends a night in the box. There's no playing grab-ass or fighting in the building. You got a grudge against another man, you fight him Saturday afternoon. Any man playing grab-ass or fighting in the building spends a night in the box. First bell's at five minutes of eight when you will get in your bunk. Last bell is at eight. Any man not in his bunk at eight spends the night in the box. There is no smoking in the prone position in bed. To smoke you must have both legs over the side of your bunk. Any man caught smoking in the prone position in bed... spends a night in the box. You get two sheets. Every Saturday, you put the clean sheet on the top... the top sheet on the bottom... and the bottom sheet you turn in to the laundry boy. Any man turns in the wrong sheet spends a night in the box. No one'll sit in the bunks with dirty pants on. Any man with dirty pants on sitting on the bunks spends a night in the box. Any man don't bring back his empty pop bottle spends a night in the box. Any man loud talking spends a night in the box. You got questions, you come to me. I'm Carr, the floor walker. I'm responsible for order in here. Any man don't keep order spends a night in...
Luke: ...the box.
Carr: I hope you ain't going to be a hard case.
Luke: [Smiles, shakes head] .

[bfree]

As the saying goes, "reputation" is what you do when others are looking, "character" is what you do when no one is looking.

Rain:sunMan

.


http://blog.internetnews.com/apatrizio/orly_owl.jpg

[MJW155]

If you know plenty about the A.T., you haven't shown any of it here. As for your concern for the A.T. your "I make the choice that's best for me" says it all. If you know better yet still set a bad example for others by flaunting the rules, you aren't any better than the people you mention that trash the trail in other ways.


According to your logic, I should risk life and limb to hike to a shelter that's 5-10 miles away because we wouldn't want the trail to suffer. Hmm.. OK. This is my last post in this thread so whatever. But as I was saying, there's nothing wrong w/ stealth camping as long as you are not endangering anyone or destroying the habitat. Accept it or not, walking in the woods for 200 or 300 feet off the trail and setting up a tent is not destroying the habitat. But I'll tell you what. If someday I set a tent up off the trail and years after the fact, a scientist discovers that the entire ecosystem was destroyed by a wayward hiker, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. Until then, I have more respect for nature than I do some "government laws" saying I can't hike or camp somewhere.

[JAK]

Properly done, stealth is good practice anywhere.
Essentially, it is socially discrete, and environmentally sensitive, properly done.

Some people might still lose sleep over it, no doubt.
Rather like trying to disturb the shad under the Reversing Falls bridge.

[JAK]

O, Jenny's a' weet, poor body,
Jenny's seldom dry:
She draigl't a' her petticoatie,
Comin thro' the rye!

Chorus:
Comin thro' the rye, poor body,
Comin thro' the rye,
She draigl't a' her petticoatie,
Comin thro' the rye!

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need a body cry?

(chorus)

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need the warl' ken?

(chorus)

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the grain;
Gin a body kiss a body,
The thing's a body's ain.

(chorus)

Ev'ry Lassie has her laddie,
Nane, they say, have I,
Yet all the lads they smile on me,
When comin' thro' the rye.

[MJW155]

Properly done, stealth is good practice anywhere.
Essentially, it is socially discrete, and environmentally sensitive, properly done.

Some people might still lose sleep over it, no doubt.
Rather like trying to disturb the shad under the Reversing Falls bridge.


Exactly. It's not like I'm saying to make a ruckus, tear up the ground, start a campfire and just leave it. I'm talking strictly walking off the trail and setting up a tent for the night and leaving ASAP in the morning. Like I said earlier, if you get caught stealth camping, you are not stealth camping. If you leave a trace, you are not stealth camping. But to think that the entire state of CT is endangered grounds and you cannot camp outside of a campsite is just LOL. Ohh.... because a government official said so, it must be true! Nevermind the fact that they stand to make money if you break a rule. Sure!

[JAK]

Still, give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar.

[JAK]

Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
Under the shade of a coolibah tree,
And he sang as he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he watched and waited 'til his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Down came a jumbuck to drink at that billabong,
Up jumped the swagman and grabbed him with glee,
And he sang as he stowed that jumbuck in his tucker bag,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he stowed that jumbuck in his tucker bag,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Up rode the squatter, mounted on his thoroughbred,
Down came the troopers, one, two, three,
"Where's that jolly jumbuck you've got in your tucker bag?"
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
"Where's that jolly jumbuck you've got in your tucker bag?",
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Up jumped the swagman and sprang into the billabong,
"You'll never take me alive", said he,
And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And his ghost may be heard as you pass by that billabong,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me."
"Oh, You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me."

[RGB]

The Parkway is supposed to be extremely strict on stealth-camping, charging $12 a night for their handful of shelters. Despite all of their buzz about "cracking-down," I've stayed the night on top of Beacon Heights several times, with my car in the parking lot. No one comes up to ask me to leave, no one even leaves a warning or ticket on my car. I think it's a Southern laziness thing.

Guess I'll be enjoying meteor shower nights again this year.

[Symbol]

The Parkway is supposed to be extremely strict on stealth-camping, charging $12 a night for their handful of shelters. Despite all of their buzz about "cracking-down," I've stayed the night on top of Beacon Heights several times, with my car in the parking lot. No one comes up to ask me to leave, no one even leaves a warning or ticket on my car. I think it's a Southern laziness thing.

Guess I'll be enjoying meteor shower nights again this year.


I love Boone, I love the Tanawah Trail.

[NorthCountryWoods]

So this is a topic that I have been curious about as well for quite some time. Im hikeing the LT this summer and im bringing a hammock. Some sections are "dispersed camping areas" while other areas are "shelter only". I really dont want to sleep in shelters. So what is the best way to stealth camp. By walking 4-5 miles past shelter 200-300 hundred feet into woods off trail. By the time it starts to get dusk, are rangers patrolling the trail? And even so would they notice a hammock deep in the woods. As I understand from this thread their are some serious fines to this pratice if caught, so the their are some risks, does any one have stories of actually getting caught by Rangers? If I never build a fire ring and praticed LNT how is that looked upon amongst the hiker community? I am only asking bc this will be my first long distance hike and im curious?

There are very few "rangers" on the LT and they are only in the state parks and GNF. As long as you are practicing LNT and are not endangering sensitive areas, they will not bother you.



Part of the problem with the LT is that some of it transsects private land which is where there are areas that camping of any kind are not allowed in. However, most of the LT you can camp in off trail. For more info see the GMC's LT guidebook or the website at www.longtrailhiking.info (http://www.longtrailhiking.info)

Believe it or not, private land in VT has to be posted to be considered "off limits" to the public using it for recreation. As long as you are not damaging the land (cutting trees, starting fires, trenching trails with ATVs, etc.) you are not breaking the law. You can be asked to leave however and you should obey respectfully.

The typical landowners that do post their land are doing so to keep hunters out, so they generally do not post along the LT. Without proper posting along the LT easement, you would not be trespassing in the eyes of the law.

I generally hike the LT between Rt. 17 and Journeys end where the majority of the private land is and the odds of being confronted by a landowner while stealth camping responsibly is negligible. That being said, the LT depends on keeping those private land owners happy (I'm one of them) and keeping your impact to a minimum is vital.

[Sassafras Lass]

I suppose it boils down to knowing yourself and your abilities, doesn't it?

I've not lived my life without realizing that a lot of "helpful" rules may be good at controlling those who are ignorant and otherwise would create a mess in every capacity, but for people who are level-headed and use the brain that God gave them, then instinct, reason, and the ability to be humble and take care of yourself will see you through much.

I'm not opposed to stealth camping, because I know my abilities. I'm not opposed to stealth camping because while I understand the need for rules, I also understand the realities that life will throw your way which may make the flauting of said rules more comfortable/safe/expedient for your mission.

I'm not opposed to guidelines. I'm opposed to black-and-white thinking.

[Tipi Walter]

The intent of the people who run the park is not to restrict the personal freedom of Park visitiors. Instead, the good folks who administer the Park are trying to make sure that some of these 9,000,000 plus annual visitors don't damage the Park during their visit.
:-?

And there's the rub: personal freedom often equates to abuse. Personal freedom to drive a vehicle thru the Park has a lot more impact than the personal freedom to backpack thru the Park. Why shouldn't we designate the Park a wilderness and keep out cars, especially since it's the most air polluted park in the country? Personal freedom is never a good thing in United States forests when it comes to the usual American rolling couch potato: i.e. they want to see it all and get their nature fix w/o any effort. What comes to mind are the 56,000 yearly helicopter tourist flights over the Grand Canyon to see the thing. Freedom? Multiuse Access insanity?

With such freedom comes unregulated noise pollution. In the Yellowstone they allow 700 snowmobiles a day in the Park, that's their limit. But what about a little peace and quiet? Haven't we had our bellyful of roads and traffic and cars outside these Parks? Shouldn't we then have places to go without these noisy and stinking things? You may call it freedom, I call it abuse.


Toolshed:

Even if we take your figure at face value, well 1% of 9,000,000 is still 90,000 people.

That's an awful lot of stealth campsites, garbage, sanitation problems, fire risk, etc.

And remember, even if we're only talking about 1% of the annual visitors to the Park, that's 90,000 potential problems every single year.

These numbers are overwhelming, which is why NPS quite rightly regulates where people can overnight. True, some of these "hardened" sites aren't all that attractive and could sure stand some improvement, but the Park administrators would rather centralize visitor impact, and in so doing, they minimize the damage. In short, you cut down on the number of places where people can stay, you also cut down on the number of places they'll muck up.

Letting 90,000 people do whatever they wished wherever they wish in the Smokies would be a disaster.

If this were true, why isn't the AT a disaster? Millions of people camp and have access to the AT all thru the year and most of it w/o permits or designated camping. Plus, of those 90,000, which are dayhikers and which are backpackers? And exactly in what way would unlimited camping access in the Park create a disaster? I imagine going from 500 acres of legal camping to around 500,000 acres would adequately disperse a huge amount of backpacker's impact on the land. And there's this: How many acres does the linear AT take up from, let's say, Georgia to Virginia? 500,000? Actually, if you're talking about the actual AT trail and the camping spots along its length, we're talking about a tiny thin line across the landscape. How many acres total? It seems to be doing all right without foot propelled regulation.




I love how we tear down forests, destroy swamps, drain lakes, build dams, create roads, buidings, malls, ect. without any thought to it. But god forbid I should set up a tent for 10 hours 200 feet away from the AT and "destroy" the habitat. Meanwhile, while I'm sleeping, the 2 fat guys at the shelter that I didn't want to go to are eating and thowing the garbage on the ground w/ no consquences. Of course, not to be outdone, their wives and 5 kids have set up a huge bonfire which they forgot to put out and have the radio blasting until 1 AM. But it's OK because hey at least they followed the rules.

Great point. "God forbid I should set up a tent . . ." Meanwhile, our population will be around 450 million by 2050 and let's see, we will have more foests and lakes and old growth and wilderness or just go ahead with our Master Plan of habitat destruction?


The Parkway is supposed to be extremely strict on stealth-camping, charging $12 a night for their handful of shelters. Despite all of their buzz about "cracking-down," I've stayed the night on top of Beacon Heights several times, with my car in the parking lot. No one comes up to ask me to leave, no one even leaves a warning or ticket on my car. I think it's a Southern laziness thing.

Guess I'll be enjoying meteor shower nights again this year.

Yeah, they don't allow camping off the Parkway(it's around 465 miles long--that's a lot of great wasted camping spots), but hey, the mountains to sea trail travels along it for many miles and skirts it around Trout Lake and Rich Mountain and all the rest. Where else are you gonna camp? Hitchhike to a motel every night?


I love Boone, I love the Tanawah Trail.

Boone is in the center of some fine country: Pisgah and the Grandfather Ranger district(Harpers Creek, Lost Cove Creek, Upper Creek and the Wilson Creek backcountry), Grayson Highlands and the Mt Rogers area, the AT around Watauga Lake, the BR Parkway area around Price Lake and the Tanawah Trail and the Mountains to Sea trail. And it ain't far from Damascus and the AT. Plus it's full of hippie college kids who don't mind throwing on a backpack and exploring the great outdoors.

[RGB]

Yeah, they don't allow camping off the Parkway(it's around 465 miles long--that's a lot of great wasted camping spots), but hey, the mountains to sea trail travels along it for many miles and skirts it around Trout Lake and Rich Mountain and all the rest. Where else are you gonna camp? Hitchhike to a motel every night?

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous. When my friend gets down hiking around in the foothills of the Himalayas :mad: we're going to do a big portion of the MTS trail this summer. It's not even something that we have to think about, we know we're stealthing the part that runs along the BRP. It is clearly based on revenue and there's no way we're going to hitch or go out of our way to get to a shelter every night.

[RGB]

I love Boone, I love the Tanawah Trail.

The Tanawah is great! A great day hike if you have two cars between you. But we usually turn around at the Price Park campground, get past the meadow part and camp somewhere in the woods. :p