Mid-March start how much insulation needed

[Turtle Feet]

So here's the question - and btw, I'm talking March 2011...

For anyone who has started at NOBO hike in mid-March, and comment on temperature extremes -

As it stands now, my plan is to have 2 sets of 'hammock/liner' combos; one for early/late season low night time temps, and one set for the middle 1/3 or so of the hike where night time low's are not severe. Both 'combos' will have a tarp as well, I'll most likely carry the same tarp for the entire hike.

I've purchased a Nano 7 (hasn't arrived yet) as hammock #1, which will theoritically be combined with some sort of insulation system for warmth. I need to make a decision on the insulation. I was originally thinking Peapod, but I'm wondering if that's overkill for the AT in spring and early fall.

Haven't purchased the second hammock, but my thoughts were 1) I can carry the Nano 7 the entire trip (if it proves comfortable enough), just drop the insulation system, or 2) I can upgrade to a more comfortable (ie roomier?) hammock without too much of a weight increase since I'd be dropping the bottom insulation (and probably a lighter top blanket as well).

Right now, I need to make the decision on what the appropriate insulation might be for an AT trip. I want to be sure I'm warm enough without over-kill.... As a side note - I don't plan to do any winter camping with the system, but living in far northern WI, it wouldn't be out of the question.

HELP!!!:confused:

[mountain squid]

It will be cold. You can expect plenty of nights at or below freezing. Might even get some way below freezing.

I don't have any recommendations as far as insulation goes. The seemingly complicated insulation issue was one reason I opted to carry a lightweight tent instead. Once you add all the under quilts and the sleeping pad, you don't gain any weight savings carrying a hammock. And, since I wasn't comfortable sleeping in a hammock, it didn't seem worth it to me. My 2 cents ....


What I noticed on your particular hammock though, is that you will want some bug protection during the summer. You will see plenty of Hennessy Hammocks (http://www.hennessyhammock.com/) on the trail which are lightweight and offer protection from the elements as well as those pesky divebombing 'skeeters.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

[ShelterLeopard]

I'm bringing a tent from the last week of February (my start) through early May, then switching it out for my Hennesey Hammock.

[Cannibal]

It will be cold, yes. However, you won't need more than a solid 3-Season set-up for the entire thru. You'll be carrying warmer clothes when it's cold out anyway, just wear them to bed to boost your quilts. You'll want something under you on all but the hottest nights, so get a good 3-Season underquilt and you're done. They get expensive quick! I did switch-out for a summer topquilt when the time came, but just one underquilt and it was only a torso length one.

[Deadeye]

Seems to me that the pea pod is a good start, and I certainly don't think it's overkill. It's rated to 20 degrees, and you'll have plenty of nights where that rating will be just right. Add a top quilt at the start, send it home after Virginia, pick it up again in NH. I'm considering doing just that, but I have to wait until 2020, so I can think about it for a looooong time.

[Big Hurt]

Why is a hammock preferred over a tent? Please explain.

[Cannibal]

Why is a hammock preferred over a tent? Please explain.
Comfort and more site options.

[scope]

Why is a hammock preferred over a tent? Please explain.

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll answer this question first and then back to the original one... OK, a tent is like a house in a basic way. People don't ask "Why is a tent preferred over a hammock" because people mentally "get" tents intuitively. Hammocks are for the most part comfortable. Not perfect, but because of lack of pressure points, they are typically more comfortable for a longer period of time (sleep time), and therefore you can sleep better. Think about your home experience with better sleep and how it makes a difference in your life. Not with a hammock of course, but how having a good mattress makes a difference.

Anyway, to answer some of the question(s) asked by the poster, for the most part, a Peapod would be very appropriate for that time of year, but its a funny time year. Might get 80 one day and its 60 at hiker midnight, 40s for a low. Not sure how well the Peapod vents, might do better with a good quilt, and could probably take that quilt the distance.

Also, this sort of gets back to my point above about hammocks not being intuitive like tents, you DO NOT drop the bottom insulation, ever. There may be some nights where you don't use it, and believe me, when those occur you will be thankful you have a hammock instead of a tent. Why? Same as sleeping on the cold ground, even in the summer, without a pad. What? You thought that pad was for padding? Well, yeah, but it really keeps you comfortable by keeping you warm, not so much because of that inch or so of thickness.

Pads are fine in a hammock, although certainly not perfect. Underquilts are about as close to perfect as you're gonna get. Of course, the Peapod is both under and top insulation, but its much easier to have a bottom component that is plenty warm there all the time, and then work with your top insulation to regulate. Hope this helps.

[Turtle Feet]

First off - Deadeye, I LOVE your little quote, can I borrow that? I literally LOL when I read that... how true!

Secondly - THANK YOU ALL so much for your thoughtful comments...

Big Hurt - the others answered your question perfectly.. for me it's about 80% comfort 20% weight.

One other experience I had on a canoe trip last year helped me with my decision... I was with my 21yo son, we each had one man backpacking tents with us. In setting up our second night out (of a week-long trip), one of the tent poles to my sons tent broke! I don't know about everyone else, but I don't carry spare poles with me. I know that problems with hammocks can arise too, but it's much more reasonable to be able to repair whoopie cords, or patch nylon than it is to make a tent pole materialize.

If I were leaving this spring I'd say I don't have time to make the switch, but having an entire year to 'get it right', I can play with different combo's (hammocks, insulation, suspension systems, ect) and see what works for me.

I do think I'm leaning away from the Peapod (for the price, I don't think I'd get enough use out of it), leaning more toward just carrying the one style hammock the entire trail and adjusting more moderate insulations.

Scope - I appreciate your comment about not dropping the bottom insulation. I really didn't know that! I have a mummy cut (for my mummy bag) open cell pad that might suffice as bottom insulation in the 'middle 1/3' of the hike, don't know. I'll look at something like the Crows Nest for the first and last 1/3's. If I end up buying the WBB double I could slip my mummy pad between the first and second layer, no?

Another insulation option I'd like to try is quilt batting. I've done alot of quilting thru the years and can vouch for the warmth of even the thinnest layers of batting - sometimes it's hard to believe something so incredibly thin could be so warm.

Thanks again everyone! :) ... keep the comments coming!!!

[Turtle Feet]

One more thought - what about bag liners? I've never used one (never needed one), but I found a "silk cocoon" mummy liner that weighs in at 4.7oz. Has anyone used one as part of an insulation 'system'???

[SouthMark]

If you are using a hammock I would check into getting or making a top quilt instead of using a bag. It will save weight since the part of the bag under you will just be compressed and offer very little insulation. I have a Go Lite Ultra 20 quilt and have slept warm with it down to 16º. If you haven't already check out www.hammockforums.net for lots of info and help. Also on trail journals you might want to search for HammockHanger's (Sue Turner) AT journals.

[climber2377]

i plan to set up mine in my back yard as soon as it arrives, i ordered a hennessy backpacker ul and got the 4 season insulation. i live in NY so i m sure it will be as cold or colder here in january february, than it can be on the trail. i have a down mtn hardwear bag not sure of the rating, but i ve slept in my car (i have a subaru wagon) on my air pad with it before in the dead of winter. wore a wool hat and gloves and made it through the night. wont say it didnt get cold, but i survived.

[scope]

One more thought - what about bag liners? I've never used one (never needed one), but I found a "silk cocoon" mummy liner that weighs in at 4.7oz. Has anyone used one as part of an insulation 'system'???

If you've got sewing skills, go over to HammockForums.net and you'll get plenty of advice on making a quilt, as well as an underquilt. Not familiar with "batting" but if you think its warm and light enough to carry, then go for it. I'd make that the UQ.

Bags are a hassle in a hammock, but at least you can usually zip them all the way down which makes them easier to get into, plus you can use them as a quilt. Liners are a PITA in a hammock. Your best bet is to use your insulated jacket and other clothing to supplement a quilt or bag.

[climber2377]

i plan to set up mine in my back yard as soon as it arrives, i ordered a hennessy backpacker ul and got the 4 season insulation. i live in NY so i m sure it will be as cold or colder here in january february, than it can be on the trail. i have a down mtn hardwear bag not sure of the rating, but i ve slept in my car (i have a subaru wagon) on my air pad with it before in the dead of winter. wore a wool hat and gloves and made it through the night. wont say it didnt get cold, but i survived.

its a 20 degree bag. i just looked.

[Turtle Feet]

Southmark - I could see where a mummy would be a problem in a hammock - it can be a pita in a tent! I've got a Big Agnes that's rated to 20+, and use it all summer, either sleeping unzipped or (by morning) on top. My current pad and bag weight 4lbs 3oz. I'm pretty sure I can do better than that and still stay warm enough - if I'm not mistaken, a Crowsnest weighs 1lb 2oz - I think I could easily come up with a top quilt way less than 3lbs!

I'm going to do some shopping this weekend (I've made the 4 hour trek to the 'big city'..lol), look at some shoes and check out some fabric sources. I had originally dismissed the idea of DYI for these items as I figured someone who's made a hammock, UQ, TQ, ect. hundreds, if not thousands of times could do a much better job than I could (and I was willing to pay for their expertise), but with a year to spare, I may take a stab, maybe make some doll size prototypes and see how it goes.

Scope, I love hammockforums - I've learned tons, and getting lots of good ideas about suspensions - love hearing all the pros and cons of all the gear options. I posted this question here to get an idea if I was barking up the right tree with est. temps specific to the AT.

Anyone else here heading out next year???

[Turtle Feet]

So here's a little update ....

Nano came in the mail while I was out of town - I wanted in the worst way to hang it up last night but it was almost dark and the only option would be to try to hang if from some hooks I have up on my front porch for a swing. Well, as you can imagine -that wasn't nearly far enough apart, I was folded up in half...lol. So, today I decided to try it between two trees next to the house. I don't even have any kind of suspension system for this yet, but I have ratching style straps we use for our kayaks & canoe. I looped one thru each of the carabiners and double wrapped them around each tree. Got in, and....aaaahhhh. Nice. This is gonna be great!

It was 11 degrees when I went outside, 5mph winds, leaves a WCF of 3 degrees F. I had 2 identical LLBean bags that I used for the kids for years, I couldn't find them, so I dragged out one of my kids little mummy bags, and my Big Agnes. I layed the little mummy in the hammock, got in on top of it. First I tried just throwing my mummy over the top of me (lying down). That didn't work, it kept sliding off. So, I knew I wanted to get into the bag some way, but I was not about to take my boots off, so I opened my bag, stuck my feet in boots and all, shimmied the bag up to my hips, did one of those 'lift the hips up to pull the bag underneath' moves:banana...lol... sort of like that. Mind you, I'm still laying in this little hammock (and believe me, it's little), with another mummy bag underneath me taking up some of the depth. I got the bag up to my shoulders, struggled a bit with getting the zipper in a spot where I could reach it. I should mention, I had on a pair of UGGS (no socks), jeans, t-shirt, fleece jacket, winter shell with hood (no down), ball cap and $1.99 gloves (the knit stretchy ones). Not at all dressed for the elements. I got in, mummy hood up over my coat hood, zipped all the way up and I was toasty.

Now, with that said - I immeadiately noticed my R shoulder felt chilled. I realized I didn't have any of the bottom mummy bag under my R arm. I brought my arm up over my chest and that helped.

I can see now how important that bottom insulation is! I have no doubt one of those Peapods would have kept me comfortable - all night? Don't know, but if I had had anything of any substance underneath me, I would have been in pretty good shape - especially if I had been wearing a down jacket, long undies, warm socks (you get the idea). If I can find those two LLBean bags I'll see if I can rig something up.

I layed out there about 45 mins and then decided to call it quits. I would guess I could've lasted another hour, maybe 1 1/2hrs. - not much more than that.

I am so going to love this hammock hanging!!! Big Hurt - you asked about why a hammock... pick up an inexpensive something you can return if you don't love it and give it a try - I think you will love it. Mind you, for me, I'm thinking about the fact that this is my bed for roughly 5 month+/-. I can sleep on the ground for a week or two, but months on end? That would have been really, really rough. I have not a doubt that I could sleep like a baby in a hammock.

I have this Nano, which I fully intend to keep, but I also just picked up a WWBB that I should have next week (can't WAIT to get that up in the air!). I still think I'll start out with the Nano - it doesn't have bug netting, figure I won't need it for a couple of months, so when I get to that point, I can have my hubby ship the Blackbird.

We've got a year, so I'm going to play around with making some sort of under insulation. If I can't get it right, I'll be looking more closely at the retail options.

I just wanted to let everyone know how happy I am with my decision! :banana

[singing wind]

Turtle Feet -

I hammock too and am still learning. For insulation I use a cheap blue foam pad cut down about 1/2 size and the extra bits go to the side for arm, shoulder, and knee insulation. A regular mummy bag is good enough as those flash underquilts are expensive.

You asked about silk liners - so far I've found 2 silk skirts for cheap at a 2nd hand shop and taken them apart for a makeshift liner. Significant yardage at a lower price than the fabric shop. I use 1 piece like a small sheet either on the pad on in the sleeping bag as needed. They can also make good scarves, a lightweight towel, and a wrap-around tuck-in skirt in a pinch. Warmth factor varies depending upon how it is used.

Seeing as how you're a quilter, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about creating lightweight underquilts with quilting materials.

Good luck with your projects and your hike! :)

[Just Jeff]

singing wind - have you looked at the Speer SPE? It keeps the extra side pads in place, allows you to stack pads for colder weather, etc. Definitely worth looking at...not very expensive, or very easy to make if you can sew.
Speer: http://www.speerhammocks.com
DIY: http://www.tothewoods.net/HomemadeGearSPE.html

[climber2377]

so i decided i d report back on my backyard hammock set up. it was 17 degrees with a wind chill of things feeling like 1 degree. using hennessy's ul backpacker and the 4 season insulation system, (i didnt have the little safety blanket from walmart yet) and i have to say, laying in my mummy bag (20 degree), dressed with long johns, wicking layer, insulation layer (fleece), and rain gear/outershell (pants and jacket, goretex) and hiking socks on. i was rather comfortable... only my feet got a little chilly and i think that with the space blanket in place i ll be good to go. second trial... later today. i think this is going to be so incredible!!! and so comfortable too.. all the best.

[cowpoke]

Turtle Feet.....what Just Jeff said...check out Speer Hammocks. I have the HHED and went with the SPE 4x4. Solved the problems with the shoulders getting cold. I use one of the blue pads from Wally World...cuts down nicely. I place it in the hammock first...then a soft windshield reflector...get'em at Wally World cheap. I'll wear a pair of long-johns to sleep in...with my.."Quilt-bag" over that. My quilt bag is just a quilt with a zipper. It has opening for my head and arms..and goes down to my toes...open at the bottom. Makes it easy when nature calls at night...and nature will call. I carry a fleece blanket for my top insulation. I'm making a top piece out of two thin sheets of fleece with batting sewn in-between....with double fold at the bottom so I can slip my feet in and keep them warm. One thing I have found...you will "experiment" until you find the insulation that works for you. Cheers.

[Tinker]

Why is a hammock preferred over a tent? Please explain.

The floor never gets wet or muddy :).

You don't need to carry a sleeping pad to be comfortable (though the extra down required to warm up the bottom may equal the weight of a pad).

Obviously, enough people find them more comfortable than a wooden or dirt platform even with a pad to justify the complexity of setup (easier than most folks think).

Your "mattress" will never go flat (of course your ropes or straps might break, but often you can tie them back together and make do).

[Tinker]

One more thought - what about bag liners? I've never used one (never needed one), but I found a "silk cocoon" mummy liner that weighs in at 4.7oz. Has anyone used one as part of an insulation 'system'???
Bag liners are:
1) A pain to get in and out of (especially if you have to "go" multiple times during the night.
2) Can get wrapped (tangled) around your feet.
3) Are a single use item (you can't wear them while you walk around camp or at the laundromat while you wash clothes - unless you are really good in the "sack race" :D.
Another set of long underwear will keep you just as warm as a bag liner and can be used as mentioned above.

[SGT Rock]

Here is an article I wrote about what I did on my winter 2008 start: http://hikinghq.net/stay_warm.html

It talks about clothing first, then the hammock about half way down. If I were starting in March I'd start with winter gear and see what I could cut back on

[Tinker]

This has worked for me down to 5 degrees F.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38616&catid=member&imageuser=2502
For that temperature I was using a Montbell ULAP down thermal sheets bag as an overbag inside the pictured Golite, I was wearing a heavy North Face Nuptse jacket with a hood borrowed from another jacket. I used a hot water bottle and had the hammock "tent" set up (see my photos). Any insulation you put between your backside and the hammock fabric had better be non-compressible, since the dead air space is what makes insulation work. Closed cell foam is used by some hammockers, but you have to make it as wide as the hammock or your elbows will get cold where they press against the hammock sides.
I have stolen Speer's Peapod idea lock, stock, and barrel, with the exception that I need to use something to insulate the area under my head (I usually use my light fleece jacket). The Peapod is superior in that the baffles run lengthwise as mine run circumferentially, and the down tends to migrate toward the bottom of the bag. During the night I occasionally rotate the bag around the hammock and that fixes things.
Very important! The sleeping bag MUST hug your body snugly or the air space between your body and the insulation will be cold.

[Turtle Feet]

This has worked for me down to 5 degrees F.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38616&catid=member&imageuser=2502
For that temperature I was using a Montbell ULAP down thermal sheets bag as an overbag inside the pictured Golite, I was wearing a heavy North Face Nuptse jacket with a hood borrowed from another jacket. I used a hot water bottle and had the hammock "tent" set up (see my photos). Any insulation you put between your backside and the hammock fabric had better be non-compressible, since the dead air space is what makes insulation work. Closed cell foam is used by some hammockers, but you have to make it as wide as the hammock or your elbows will get cold where they press against the hammock sides.
I have stolen Speer's Peapod idea lock, stock, and barrel, with the exception that I need to use something to insulate the area under my head (I usually use my light fleece jacket). The Peapod is superior in that the baffles run lengthwise as mine run circumferentially, and the down tends to migrate toward the bottom of the bag. During the night I occasionally rotate the bag around the hammock and that fixes things.
Very important! The sleeping bag MUST hug your body snugly or the air space between your body and the insulation will be cold.

First off - excellent point about the bag liners in your last post.

I wish I could find those LL Bean bags of mine, they'd be perfect to try the 'peapod' thing. They're not rated cold enough to go below, say 20 degrees, but I think they could work ok for March & April on the trail. Where the heck did I put those bags??? :(

There seems to be almost as many options out there as their are people to try them. How fun!!!

[Turtle Feet]

Here is an article I wrote about what I did on my winter 2008 start: http://hikinghq.net/stay_warm.html

It talks about clothing first, then the hammock about half way down. If I were starting in March I'd start with winter gear and see what I could cut back on

I like "It's easier to STAY warm than to GET warm!" No truer words spoken!

[Just Jeff]

Climber - next time, try putting the wicking layer, then your raingear, then the other layers on top. Even if your raingear is "breathable" it doesn't pass much moisture before it gets caught in your fleece and clothing, so you'll probably notice a difference by putting it under your insulation. I did, at least. Warmer and much drier.

Why would I sleep in a hammock? Comfort and convenience. How many times have you woken up after sleeping on rocks and roots and wished for a more comfortable bed? Maybe your inflatable mattress weighs over a pound and still leaves you with sore shoulders in the morning, an aching lower back, and hip pointers. For me, these things aren't an issue when I sleep in my hammock. Since the hammock supports my whole body, instead of just an inflatable pad supporting my hips and shoulders, I don't get sore spots and it relieves the pressure on my lower back. The first few times I slept in a hammock I had a little lower back pain, but once I learned a few tricks like putting a clothing-filled stuff sack between my legs, the pain went away. I don't even toss and turn when I sleep in my hammock, because there are no pressure points to relieve.

Hammocks are more convenient when setting up camp, IMO. I can just string it up and stake out my tarp...no looking for a level spot, clearing rocks and roots, etc. It's usually pretty easy to find two suitable trees in most of the places I hike. Plus a lot of sites are open to hammockers that would be difficult to ground dwellers. I've slept right over rockpiles and on 45° ridges before, and some folks have slept OVER a running stream!

And I can hang the tarp high enough to STAND UP while I'm changing clothes, cooking, or just stretching. No worries about runoff, drainage, wet duff, etc. No tracking mud into my tent, shaking out the sand in the morning, etc.

And I have a seat whenever I want it...just fold the hammock in half and sit down while I cook, relax, check my maps, whatever. No crouching over in the tent, sitting Indian style in the mud, etc.

It's what works for me...might not work for everyone, but as along as we're all out in the woods I'm happy to share my site with a ground dweller. :D