View Full Version : Deet
My wife asked me a good question last night...one that I never thought of before. So I figured I would ask here and maybe get some others thinking about this issue.
Blackfly/bug season means hikers are more prone to using repellents, some containing Deet. Looking at a bottle of Deet, one of the instructions is to avoid exposure to water sources as it may containment it. My wife said, "so that means there are hikers who spray Deet on their legs, shoes, etc. Those same hikers could possibly walk through or stand in a water source that someone else may later on use to filter water from. Does that mean that person could get sick from this?"
I never really thought of it that way. My thought is that if it is a running water source, the Deet would be washed downstream and someone would not have to worry if they filtered water at that spot...but maybe downstream it would be a problem?
I'm curious to know what others think?
My wife asked me a good question last night...one that I never thought of before. So I figured I would ask here and maybe get some others thinking about this issue.
Blackfly/bug season means hikers are more prone to using repellents, some containing Deet. Looking at a bottle of Deet, one of the instructions is to avoid exposure to water sources as it may containment it. My wife said, "so that means there are hikers who spray Deet on their legs, shoes, etc. Those same hikers could possibly walk through or stand in a water source that someone else may later on use to filter water from. Does that mean that person could get sick from this?"
I never really thought of it that way. My thought is that if it is a running water source, the Deet would be washed downstream and someone would not have to worry if they filtered water at that spot...but maybe downstream it would be a problem?
I'm curious to know what others think?
I suspect the DEET would be so diluted as to be unmeasureable by any ordinary means. And thus be probably harmless.
However, I personally do not use spray cans of DEET in the woods. I use it at home to spray my hat, or the back of a tee shirt, occasionally. But in the woods I use nothing but liquid DEET in what I think of as a "one molecule" thick layer. I rub 2 or 3 drops on the palm of my hands and then rub my hands on exposed skin surfaces.
I don't use spray in conditions where it can't be easily controlled, like spraying arms and legs, because most of the stuff ends up in the air and I don't like breathing it.
Plus spraying can use up a $5 can in a day or two. A $5 one ounce or so bottle of liquid will last me a month or two.
Weary
Kind of a tangent to the original question, but rather than spray, I found some Off! moist towelettes. I took a few on my last hike and was able to reuse one of them for three days. Great for weight reduction vs. a bottle or can, and probably results in using less.
garlic08
06-14-2010, 11:15
I would worry about organic contaminants in trail-side water sources long before I'd worry about chemicals. Look at a few AT thru hikers and you'll know what I mean.
DEET can be nasty stuff in relatively high quantities, like Weary says if you inadvertently spray it in your face or something like that. A few parts per billion in water isn't immediately dangerous to health.
pyroman53
06-14-2010, 13:10
Not to mention I think it can "melt" some plastic and some synthetics so I try to be VERY careful where it ends up. Plastic eyeglass lenses, plastic watch lens, who knows what else. I'm not sure what all so I err on the side of caution and shy away from the spray. And wash my hands after applying.
Feral Bill
06-14-2010, 13:43
The stick style repellents are very easy to control and keep off of things like glasses. They have a lower % DEET, which is good or bad depending on your needs.
Jonnycat
06-14-2010, 16:40
Not to mention I think it can "melt" some plastic and some synthetics so I try to be VERY careful where it ends up. Plastic eyeglass lenses, plastic watch lens, who knows what else. I'm not sure what all so I err on the side of caution and shy away from the spray. And wash my hands after applying.
Yes, DEET can dissolve some plastics, but dihydrogen monoxide can dissolve crystal, and you willingly ingest it every day of your life. The point is that neither observation of solubility has any any bearing on the relative toxicity of either molecule.
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5373/keyboardhead.gif
Odd Man Out
06-14-2010, 16:52
I think the concern about Deet dissolving synthetic polymers has to do with the adverse effect it might have on your equipment, not its toxicity. Has anyone used Picaridin? It does not have this effect. It is also reported to be less irritating on the skin, almost odorless, and just as effective as Deet.
Rocket Jones
06-14-2010, 17:03
I think the concern about Deet dissolving synthetic polymers has to do with the adverse effect it might have on your equipment, not its toxicity. Has anyone used Picaridin? It does not have this effect. It is also reported to be less irritating on the skin, almost odorless, and just as effective as Deet.
I'm not disputing this claim, but do you have a link to back it up? Perhaps Picaridin costs more to make with no significant benefits over DEET. There must be some reason that DEET is still the go-to repellent.
warraghiyagey
06-14-2010, 20:48
DEET is magic. . . . it does the job. . . . I've always kept it in the same pocket as my pack cover, never had any negative reactions with my equipment or my skin. . . .
Wise Old Owl
06-14-2010, 21:07
DEET is magic. . . . it does the job. . . . I've always kept it in the same pocket as my pack cover, never had any negative reactions with my equipment or my skin. . . .
You had to bring that up... Up to last month I would have agreed with you, latley before entering some "infested" houses I spray DWO on my shoes and pant legs and hands and arms.
Then some 15 hours later I get hives..... Coincidence?:-?
vonfrick
06-14-2010, 21:33
I would worry about organic contaminants in trail-side water sources long before I'd worry about chemicals. Look at a few AT thru hikers and you'll know what I mean.
DEET can be nasty stuff in relatively high quantities, like Weary says if you inadvertently spray it in your face or something like that. A few parts per billion in water isn't immediately dangerous to health.
i made deet from scratch in orgo III lab, i am confused by your post:confused::)
Not to mention I think it can "melt" some plastic and some synthetics so I try to be VERY careful where it ends up. Plastic eyeglass lenses, plastic watch lens, who knows what else. I'm not sure what all so I err on the side of caution and shy away from the spray. And wash my hands after applying.
the part of my plastic sunglasses that sits on my ears is "melty"....i just try to keep it off the lenses
Yes, DEET can dissolve some plastics, but dihydrogen monoxide can dissolve crystal, and you willingly ingest it every day of your life. The point is that neither observation of solubility has any any bearing on the relative toxicity of either molecule.
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5373/keyboardhead.gif
it can't be nearly as bad as oxidane ;)
vonfrick
06-14-2010, 21:34
p.s. the smell, taste and sting of deet in my eyes means i'm NOT at work :D:D:D
I use DEET whenever I'm out in the woods (and it's not winter)... but I do taste it soon after applying it to my skin, even if I don't get it anywhere near my mouth. I'm willing to put up with it though; it works so well.
peakbagger
06-15-2010, 07:22
Most people who use DEET use way to much. Its mechanism is bascially the same as perfume, the smell of it bascially signals the insect that it the object is not worth eating. Contrary to popular belief it does not kill the insect (unless they drown in it)_Therefore it should be applied about as sparsely as perfume. Using a spray can may be convienent but almost guarantees that too much gets applied. If someone is using the liquid, one drop per limb is about all you need, anything more than that is wasting the product and opening up the potential for cross contamination and plastic damage. By the way there have been mutiple research studies and 30% DEET works just as well as 100%, so there is no real need for 100% especially if its overdosed.
3M ultrathon is 30% DEET but more importantly, it has something mixed in so that the DEET sits on top of the skin versus absorbing into the skin, therefore it lasts a lot longer at a far lower application rate.
The 30% deet formula is as effective as the 100%, just doesn't last as long.
I tried em both in severe conditions like the Pierce Pond Maine area in June, The 30% stuff had to be reapplied after a couple-3 hours. The 100% stuff was good for 6-8 hrs.
3M ultrathon is 30% DEET but more importantly, it has something mixed in so that the DEET sits on top of the skin versus absorbing into the skin, therefore it lasts a lot longer at a far lower application rate.
I was reverring to the Bens formulas in my above post, not familiar with this 3M stuff.
[QUOTE=peakbagger;1023713]Most people who use DEET use way to much. /QUOTE]
Agreed. Tiny bit does it.
warraghiyagey
06-15-2010, 07:38
agreed. . .
yes, deet can dissolve some plastics, but dihydrogen monoxide can dissolve crystal, and you willingly ingest it every day of your life. The point is that neither observation of solubility has any any bearing on the relative toxicity of either molecule.
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5373/keyboardhead.gif
h2o.............
warraghiyagey
06-15-2010, 07:40
The 100% stuff was good for 6-8 hrs.
Agreed. . . I apply some in the morning and then usually not again til I get to camp that evening. . .
peakbagger
06-15-2010, 10:57
The 3m stuff is worth looking for, they originally designed it for the military special forces. Beans and Cabelas carry it, Walmart used to but I havent seen it lately. If it sits for a long time it needs to be shaken up
The 30% deet formula is as effective as the 100%, just doesn't last as long.
I tried em both in severe conditions like the Pierce Pond Maine area in June, The 30% stuff had to be reapplied after a couple-3 hours. The 100% stuff was good for 6-8 hrs.
That's been my experience. I haven't experiemented with the new chemicals and new formulas. DEET works and tends to be cheaper than the latest gimmicks.
ACE Hardware stores recently had a half price sale on the spray stuff, which I haven't been able to wean my wife away from. I'm still using the 2 ounce plastic bottle of 100 % liquid DEET I bought early last summer. But I'm watching the sales in hopes of saving a buck or more on a replacement container of the stuff.
Weary
Unless you are standing on the top of the highest mountain in your watershed, everywhere you are is downstream from somewhere. So yes, if you spray DEET on your legs and stand in a stream you are contaminating somebody's, perhaps some fish, bird or frog's water somewhere. Same goes for your deodorant and sunscreen. DEET has neurotoxic properties so this is a concern.
As for the use of the term "organic" there's no need to be pedantic. He means ***** and the little bugs that come with it. It's a bigger problem than DEET. This article is pretty interesting: http://www.sacbee.com/2010/04/25/2703875/bee-exclusive-livestock-waste.html
Permethrin is also toxic to fish. It doesn't say on the can whether it is toxic after it dries on clothing, but I won't swim in a stream or lake with permethrin treated clothing. I plan on doing regular water rinses on my Long Trail thru this year so I will carry a very skimpy covering to wear in the water which will not be treated with pesticides.
modiyooch
06-21-2010, 10:31
My wife asked me a good question last night...one that I never thought of before. So I figured I would ask here and maybe get some others thinking about this issue.
Blackfly/bug season means hikers are more prone to using repellents, some containing Deet. Looking at a bottle of Deet, one of the instructions is to avoid exposure to water sources as it may containment it. My wife said, "so that means there are hikers who spray Deet on their legs, shoes, etc. Those same hikers could possibly walk through or stand in a water source that someone else may later on use to filter water from. Does that mean that person could get sick from this?"
I never really thought of it that way. My thought is that if it is a running water source, the Deet would be washed downstream and someone would not have to worry if they filtered water at that spot...but maybe downstream it would be a problem?
I'm curious to know what others think?
I had the same thought last year when I hiked the section of the 100 wilderness at the end of May. It was my first experience with black flies and I had to constantly reapply the deet. I had to ford three rivers 1-3 ft. My concern wasn't necessarily in regards to filtering, but I felt it was definately polluting the water.
Years ago when we backpacked in ME with our young children, we successfully got by with a non-deet formula. The next year we went to the Everglades and tried the same product. We got 2 steps from the car, and had to jump back in. Rangers told us mosquitos were their state bird, and we had to get Deep Woods deet.
The July issue of Consumer Reports still rates DEET as the most effective repellent. All were sprays. Top rated -- and the cheapest per ounce -- was Deep Woods OFF with 30 percent DEET. Cutter Backwoods with 23 percent DEET, Off Family CARE with 15 percent, and 3M Ultra REpellent 25 percent, performed as well, the testing lab reported. All four were said to provide more than eight hours of protection.
As did a Repel formulation based on oil of lemon eucalyptus, at $1.94 per ounce.
The only repellent with picaridin tested was Natrapel, which in the Consumer Report tests provided seven hours of protection at a cost of $2 an ounce, almost twice that of Deep Woods OFF, which incidentally being an old time product, is more likely to be on sale. I recently bought two cans for less than 50 cents an ounce.
The most expensive repellent tested was a version of Avon Skin So Soft, which also claims to block the rays of sun. The Avon repellent sells for $3.50 per ounce.
Consumer reports doesn't like combination products, since worst time for bugs, early evening and at night, is not the time when the sun rays are dangerous. The least effective repellent was Burt's Bees All Natural Herbal, which CR found provided only an hours protection. Also on the mediocre side was Bite Blocker Xtreme which uses plant oils, and Cutter Skinsensations with just 7 percent DEET
Weary
[QUOTE=weary;1025344]The July issue of Consumer Reports still rates DEET as the most effective repellent. All were sprays. Top rated -- and the cheapest per ounce -- was Deep Woods OFF with 30 percent DEET. Cutter Backwoods with 23 percent DEET, Off Family CARE with 15 percent, and 3M Ultra REpellent 25 percent, performed as well, the testing lab reported. All four were said to provide more than eight hours of protection.
I wonder if the lab enviroment is as hostile as as the Carry Ponds Maine area.
I don't think they are sweating as much in the lab as a hiker in the deep maine woods.
I couldn't even get 4 hours of protection from 30% deet solution in the deep maine woods. :confused:
I'll have to try 30 % just sitting around some day.
Liv2Ride
06-21-2010, 12:28
My preference is Sawyer Maxi Deet. It's advertised as 100% deet but I think it's actually 98% or 99%. I'm not at the house so I don't have the bottle in front on me to check the actual percentage. However, it's still more than enough and way more than anything that I've seen so far except other Sawyer products. Anyway, it comes in a pump spray bottle so the spray is pretty easy to control. Or, just unscrew the cap, put some on your palm and rub it on. Good stuff.
double d
06-21-2010, 13:53
I think others have mentioned this, but I use REI's "Bug Juice" and I have really liked it, but it will damage plastic and your watch crystal, so be careful. But it works well out on the AT.
[QUOTE=weary;1025344]The July issue of Consumer Reports still rates DEET as the most effective repellent. All were sprays. Top rated -- and the cheapest per ounce -- was Deep Woods OFF with 30 percent DEET. Cutter Backwoods with 23 percent DEET, Off Family CARE with 15 percent, and 3M Ultra REpellent 25 percent, performed as well, the testing lab reported. All four were said to provide more than eight hours of protection.
I wonder if the lab enviroment is as hostile as as the Carry Ponds Maine area.
I don't think they are sweating as much in the lab as a hiker in the deep maine woods.
I couldn't even get 4 hours of protection from 30% deet solution in the deep maine woods. :confused:
I'll have to try 30 % just sitting around some day.
I don't disagree. I mostly use 100 percent liquid, except when I spray a hat or the back of a tee shirt to keep the critters from biting through.
I was just quoting Consumer Reports, which tends to be accurate in a relative sense. If Deep Woods Off works best in a lab, it probably works best while hiking or working in the deep Maine woods -- just not for the same 8+ hours.
I don't even get eight hours from 100% DEET while clearing blowdowns and brush next to a salt marsh on a muggy day. But it's the best there is.
Weary
Its either deet or this in these parts, till fall anyway:
http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/129198713227302882.jpg
What really works is a physical barrier, lots of layers.
To survive the ferocious Oregon mosquitoes I wore pants and a skirt over them (they bit through my pants alone), a T-shirt with a long-sleeved shirt over it (they bit through the long-sleeved shirt without the T-shirt.) I wore thick socks with my shoes (they bit through my shoes!)
My shirt was buttoned to my collar and the sleeves were buttoned at my wrists. I wore a headnet cinched at my collar with my collar turned up so there would not be a gap (they still bit me at the tiny little triangle exposed at my collar button and where the headnet cinched.) I tucked my shirt in so they would not fly up my shirt and bite my chest (they would do that.)
I held my trekking poles so that the straps flapped over my exposed hands. I sprayed 40% DEET on my hat, my shirt and pants. I put some on the backs of my hands and the heels of my hands (they bit the palms of my hands even when I held trekking poles.) That much DEET made me feel sick sometimes.
When I had to pee I used a urinary device so that I could pee standing up without exposing any skin. I made sure to apply DEET strategically in my tent before getting out of it in the morning to begin my hiking. I wanted to be ready for when I needed to do more than pee.
I lived that way for a month through Oregon. I saw the whole state through a green haze of mosquito netting and DEET-induced nausea. I'm pretty certain that no matter how safe anybody says it is, DEET is quite toxic. At least I have pictures so I can see what I missed.