View Full Version : Are we seeing many guns out there?
chiefiepoo
08-30-2010, 16:46
Not advocating pro or con, but following several weeks of hiking AT and other National Park locations I found myself wondering how recent changes to regulations might have made gun open carry a more common practice on trails. I saw one hand gun Shenandoah NP and two in Glacier NP. Anyone else seeing open carry where it was previously disallowed? I'm sure there may have been many more packed away in those little hip pouches though.
Bags4266
08-30-2010, 16:53
Ahhhhh, there was a thread here that went on forever. I was glad to see it gone. Bottom line some do some don't.
Bags4266
08-30-2010, 16:55
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60409&highlight=guns
The change in gun carry pertained to concealed carry, if not mistaken.
So if you were seeing 'open carry', then those folks were in violation either way.
SMSP
Tuckahoe64
08-30-2010, 17:59
The change in gun carry pertained to concealed carry, if not mistaken.
So if you were seeing 'open carry', then those folks were in violation either way.
SMSP
Not actually true. The change in the law was to bring NPS regulations into line with the local state law, where the park is located. So, NPS sites in New Jersey will follow New Jersey law, whereas NPS sites in Virginia will fallow Virginia law.
Virginia is an open carry state and no permit is required to openly carry a firearm. As such open carry should then also be permitted in NPS sites.
Bags4266
08-30-2010, 18:01
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
http://www.trainfortopdollar.com/trainfortopdollar/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/canofworms1.jpg
chiefiepoo
08-30-2010, 18:24
Saw open carry in VA and Montana, (glacier). With many thanks to Bags for visual aids, I understand the potential for futility associated with my thread.
ATsawyer
08-30-2010, 18:46
Total guns seen by me in Shenandoah this year: 0
Total days spent working trail projects in Shenandoah by me this year, both front country and back country: 28
Work hours reported by Shen central district AT overseers as of June: 946
Total guns reported: 0
Tipi Walter
08-30-2010, 20:14
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
Agree totally. Are we seeing many clarinets out there on the trail? How about tubas? Why does it always have to come back to guns?
Lone Wolf
08-30-2010, 20:22
Why does it always have to come back to guns?
paranoia. like bears and giardia. the majority of AT hikers are scared and clueless
MichaelnStl
08-30-2010, 20:27
The one thing to remember, criminals don't care about laws on concealed carry - they carry no matter what. Not sure why so many people worry about law abiding citizens who go the proper route to carry a weapon, its the criminals that I worry about.
WalkingStick75
08-30-2010, 20:51
The one thing to remember, criminals don't care about laws on concealed carry - they carry no matter what. Not sure why so many people worry about law abiding citizens who go the proper route to carry a weapon, its the criminals that I worry about.
I agree completely and have been saying the same for years! Those that do carry make sure it is concealed and do not tell ANYONE that you carry, you only give up that element of surprise by advertising.
skinewmexico
08-30-2010, 21:44
Oh please no clarinets.........
sevensixtwo187
08-30-2010, 21:54
The one thing to remember, criminals don't care about laws on concealed carry - they carry no matter what. Not sure why so many people worry about law abiding citizens who go the proper route to carry a weapon, its the criminals that I worry about.
:bananaThank you! Spot on!
Tubas on the AT?
:)
http://www.aldha.org/tubaman.htm
Gray Blazer
08-30-2010, 22:11
I saw some claves on the trail.
Jonnycat
08-30-2010, 23:02
Oh please no clarinets.........
Oh great, it's another anti-clarinetist. Look man, you can have my clarinet when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers! :banana
Tipi Walter
08-30-2010, 23:11
Oh great, it's another anti-clarinetist. Look man, you can have my clarinet when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers! :banana
Or when you can pry it from my cold, dead lips!
Rain Man
08-30-2010, 23:43
Not sure why so many people worry about law abiding citizens who go the proper route to carry a weapon, its the criminals that I worry about.
If those "law abiding" citizens are carrying illegally, then they are not "law abiding citizens," they are felons. But in either case, I worry about someone so mentally or emotionally unbalanced and paranoid that they have to carry a gun on the Appalachian Trail. Your mileage may vary.
Rain:sunMan
.
"Agree totally. Are we seeing many clarinets out there on the trail? How about tubas? Why does it always have to come back to guns?"
No woodwinds or brass instruments, but I did see a couple of travel guitars. And a pink flamingo (lawn ornament). And a fellow that was hiking with an Iguana.
But in thru-hiking the trail this year I don't recall seeing any guns, apart from perhaps a hunter or two (and I already forget if I saw any hunters on this trail or just on previous trips elsewhere ...).
Saw some turkey hunters walking the trail in PA last fall. Guns open and unloaded as required. They were interested in knowing if I had seen any turkeys, I had but they were at the Doyle ;)
john gault
08-31-2010, 09:05
I saw some claves on the trail.
Claves? I just reread it, I thought you said calves and of course that made me think of boobs, because I'm more of a boob man. I would like to see more boobs on the trail.
Gray Blazer
08-31-2010, 09:42
Claves? I just reread it, I thought you said calves and of course that made me think of boobs, because I'm more of a boob man. I would like to see more boobs on the trail.
Could possibly make your gun go off prematurely.
Tipi, do you have an extra clarinet you could throw my way? Possibly a professional Selmer? It would help me when I double for a dinner theatre like the 1st woodwind part for Fiddler Up a Roof.
Old Hiker
08-31-2010, 09:50
If those "law abiding" citizens are carrying illegally, then they are not "law abiding citizens," they are felons. But in either case, I worry about someone so mentally or emotionally unbalanced and paranoid that they have to carry a gun on the Appalachian Trail. Your mileage may vary.
Rain:sunMan
.
Not felons unless already tried and convicted for a crime, I believe. Law-breakers, maybe. Illegal is illegal, however.
Old Hiker
08-31-2010, 09:51
Oh please no clarinets.........
Oboes, maybe?
<I gotta get the hang of the multi-quote thing someday!>
Wise Old Owl
08-31-2010, 09:59
paranoia. like bears and giardia. the majority of AT hikers are scared and clueless
Good answer! :cool: I second the motion for more women on the trail, that would be a "Smoove Move"
Tipi Walter
08-31-2010, 10:11
Could possibly make your gun go off prematurely.
Tipi, do you have an extra clarinet you could throw my way? Possibly a professional Selmer? It would help me when I double for a dinner theatre like the 1st woodwind part for Fiddler Up a Roof.
Well, dangit, I played the first clarinet part in Fiddler On The Roof back in the 1980's and it has some good licks. Pit orchestra, etc. Never used a Selmer, in high school I had a Leblanc Double L and later I got the Buffet set, R13 etc. This is starting to sound an awful lot like a gun post . . . .blowback gas cylinder within a titanium trigger housing group YAWN.
Gray Blazer
08-31-2010, 10:17
Well, dangit, I played the first clarinet part in Fiddler On The Roof back
The director gave me the book finally the night before opening night. The critic was there. I wanted to get a gun and blow my head off. Every night after that, I drank a 5th of Crown Royal before and during the show. People who heard me said I sounded "inspired".
Jonnycat
08-31-2010, 10:18
Well, dangit, I played the first clarinet part in Fiddler On The Roof back in the 1980's and it has some good licks. Pit orchestra, etc. Never used a Selmer, in high school I had a Leblanc Double L and later I got the Buffet set, R13 etc.
Those modern semi-automatic clarinets are not what was intented when clarinets were legalized.
Leave the high-capacity wind instruments to the military bands, please, or those properly trained in their usage.
MichaelnStl
08-31-2010, 10:41
Rainman - are you serious? "I worry about someone so mentally or emotionally unbalanced and paranoid that they have to carry a gun on the Appalachian Trail" - you aren't serious right? How about the motto "Be Prepared". I have hiked TONS of miles, never needing more than bandaids from my first air kit...but I still carry it. I bring a amateur radio with me for communications...never NEEDED it..but I bring it. How about the "unbalanced" people that are looking to prey upon those not prepared, it happens every day in Malls, schools, fast food restaurants, at work....why focus on the "potential" damage someone who has a legal right to carry could do and not on the actual criminals who are committing all the crimes.. Read up Rainman - it was stated earlier that just because you carry on the AT you are NOT carrying illegally.
I have been in martial arts for over 25 years...and I HOPE you never have to tell stories like I have heard from victims, the husband in tears, having to watch his wife and kids raped and killed in front of him while he could do nothing to protect them....or of the countless parents / husbands / wives / children who have had loved ones taken when in remote areas, never to return. Keep believing that all we need to do is have police officers to protect you and you will eventually be a victim...period...no question. Ask the police, they will be the first to admit - they can't stop crimes...they just help clean up after the mess.
Here is a link from the USDA Forest Service on their position on concealed carry...I understand the AT is not all on National Forest land...but some of it is.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5066182.pdf
So the 2 mottos I like to live by is "Be Prepared" and "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"...has served me well. Again, I hope for your sake Rainman - that you are never a victim.
Michael
Trailbender
08-31-2010, 10:52
If those "law abiding" citizens are carrying illegally, then they are not "law abiding citizens," they are felons. But in either case, I worry about someone so mentally or emotionally unbalanced and paranoid that they have to carry a gun on the Appalachian Trail. Your mileage may vary.
Rain:sunMan
.
I worry about someone so mentally or emotionally unbalanced and paranoid that they have to have car insurance or a fire extinguisher. I don't plan on getting in a car wreck or a fire, right?
I don't carry on the AT, but I do carry in "real life". It is insurance. I do not go to the ATM at 3AM because I have a gun, I go about my normal life. It is insurance. There are dangerous and evil people in this world, and I am not going to let a criminal do whatever he wants to me. I know people who have been robbed, and I personally had a crackhead stick a gun in my face when my workplace was robbed.
I am nice and respect people, and usually get the same in return. I attend training courses and practice regularly with my firearms to remain proficient with them. That is just common sense.
I see it as insurance. You can hope you may never be attacked, and it is likely that you won't, but I don't consider hope to be a strategy.
I did not carry on my thru because of the northern liberal nanny states that would put me in prison for doing nothing more than protecting myself.
FYI- Acadia NP has an ordinance that requires concealed carry with permit.
No open carry. I guess that would mean a shirt. Too freakin' hot for a shirt here. At least for me.:)
Tipi Walter
08-31-2010, 12:27
Those modern semi-automatic clarinets are not what was intented when clarinets were legalized.
Leave the high-capacity wind instruments to the military bands, please, or those properly trained in their usage.
It's funny you should say this as I was a "combat clarinetist" in the USAF Band between '69 and '73. I was therefore authorized and trained on not only your standard B-flat soprano clarinet, but did a tour on bass clarinet and spent several months behind the firepower of an E-flat alto saxophone, now illegal in most states. I could field strip a standard grenadilla-wood clarinet at night blindfolded and slap a reed on the thing and be putting out music "rounds" downrange in under 30 seconds. A buddy of mine attempted to play a contra-bassoon with the double-reed and a pinched up embouchure(lip-lock), and the instrument exploded in a taliban fireball with a misfire. A story for another time . . . . . .
I saw a guy with a trombone at Overmountain shelter a few years back. He actually hiked with that thing and was very good with it. He played in the symphony before in Knoxville and I believe Ashville.
I won't even touch on the subject that Rainman brought up.
Gray Blazer
08-31-2010, 14:16
It's funny you should say this as I was a "combat clarinetist" in the USAF Band between '69 and '73. I was therefore authorized and trained on not only your standard B-flat soprano clarinet, but did a tour on bass clarinet and spent several months behind the firepower of an E-flat alto saxophone, now illegal in most states. I could field strip a standard grenadilla-wood clarinet at night blindfolded and slap a reed on the thing and be putting out music "rounds" downrange in under 30 seconds. A buddy of mine attempted to play a contra-bassoon with the double-reed and a pinched up embouchure(lip-lock), and the instrument exploded in a taliban fireball with a misfire. A story for another time . . . . . .
Best post ever. Happiness is a warm gun. Love is a little boat upon the sea.
I always carry a woodwind instrument with me. I use it to launch jigs and reels into the air.
I saw a man with a gun on a trail near the John Muir Trail just a couple of weeks ago. I felt sorry for him. I felt sorry for a lot of people because I literally skipped and sang up the big passes wearing sandals and a girly skirt and carrying a very light pack. Most people pack a whole lot of insecurities with them.
john gault
08-31-2010, 15:16
All this talk about calves, boobs, Wood, Wind, Instruments....nevermind...
Lone Wolf
08-31-2010, 15:18
Most people pack a whole lot of insecurities with them.
...water filters, cell phones, bear spray, bear bags, whistles just to name a few
Bags4266
08-31-2010, 15:29
Well LW, not sure I would call a cell phone an insecurity. If I'm out and finish my section early or late I need to call for my pickup. Also there is a lack of pay phones around. I do like my head still attached to my body so my 2 oz bearbag setup I'll suffer through too.
rockerZ71
08-31-2010, 15:41
Has anyone found a comfortable way to conceal while backpacking? I always open carry on the trail.
Jonnycat
08-31-2010, 15:42
It's funny you should say this as I was a "combat clarinetist" in the USAF Band between '69 and '73. I was therefore authorized and trained on not only your standard B-flat soprano clarinet, but did a tour on bass clarinet and spent several months behind the firepower of an E-flat alto saxophone, now illegal in most states. I could field strip a standard grenadilla-wood clarinet at night blindfolded and slap a reed on the thing and be putting out music "rounds" downrange in under 30 seconds. A buddy of mine attempted to play a contra-bassoon with the double-reed and a pinched up embouchure(lip-lock), and the instrument exploded in a taliban fireball with a misfire. A story for another time . . . . . .
ROFL! That really made my day.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1669/clarinetmyday.jpg
Mountain Wildman
08-31-2010, 15:56
Has anyone found a comfortable way to conceal while backpacking? I always open carry on the trail.
Not sure if this is comfortable but they claim it is.
http://www.smartcarry.com/
Has anyone found a comfortable way to conceal while backpacking? I always open carry on the trail.
Just don't do this: http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/8459870/20128332/Hiker_accidentally_shoots_himself_in_the_rear
Ouch!
10 stupid characters..
BigFoot2002
08-31-2010, 19:41
I have a concealed carry permit and I completely agree with Rainman on this one.
Rain Man
08-31-2010, 19:49
I have a concealed carry permit and I completely agree with Rainman on this one.
Thanks for the support and I fully realize there are people and arguments on all sides of this emotional issue. (And no, I don't carry a fire extinguisher on the AT either, though indeed it would be just as silly as carrying a gun.)
But to all... please don't blame or confuse poor "Rainman" with me. There is a "Rainman" on WB, but he's not me. I'm "Rain Man." I hate for him to get fussed at by mistake.
:D
Rain Man
.
johnnybgood
08-31-2010, 19:58
But to all... please don't blame or confuse poor "Rainman" with me. There is a "Rainman" on WB, but he's not me. I'm "Rain Man."
:D
Rain Man
.
Soo... which one of you played in the movie ? :D
BigFoot2002
08-31-2010, 20:08
Sorry I missed that Rain Man.
I posted this before and got no answer....
Anybody who hiked the whole AT while carrying, please share with me why it was a good idea and why you would do it again.
Is this deja vu or what:D I now believe it is time to hear how no gun ever helped anyone get out of a jam on the AT:welcome
Bags4266
08-31-2010, 20:39
No whats next is what size and cal. gun do you carry, and grain load of bullet do you have. Then comes where do you put it at night, especially for the hangers. Who fricking cares, been to this rodeo before. Carry one great, don't that's well too!
Point Man Chef
08-31-2010, 21:43
Actually it's probably about time for the thread to disappear like the last one about handguns, weapons, etc. Just waiting for the one post that I will surely miss and be left wondering "what happened?" "It was fairly respectful up until ___ Hello? Is anybody there? Am I logged on? Dangit! Missed the post ...
bronconite
09-01-2010, 08:31
FYI- Acadia NP has an ordinance that requires concealed carry with permit.
No open carry. I guess that would mean a shirt. Too freakin' hot for a shirt here. At least for me.:)
Acadia National Park has no such ordinance. They follow the same policy all National Parks do. The law that requires concealed carry with a permit is a Maine state law.
Visitors may possess firearms within a national park unit provided they comply with federal, state, and local laws.
http://www.nps.gov/acad/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm
Maine's carry laws.
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-A.html
Some extra thing they threw in this Spring. No open carry in Acadia. I may be wrong in the wording. Early Spring, if you had a permit, you could carry on the outside, if that makes sense.
vamelungeon
09-01-2010, 09:56
I can't imagine how those opposed to being armed think all this name calling is in any way helpful. It isn't, and ad hominem attacks are a poor tactic for making a point or changing another person's opinion.
I carry a firearm always, and have a need to do so. If you meet me in person, you'll never know I'm armed and I hope I never have a need to use it.
bronconite
09-01-2010, 11:41
Some extra thing they threw in this Spring. No open carry in Acadia. I may be wrong in the wording. Early Spring, if you had a permit, you could carry on the outside, if that makes sense.
The ammendment (SA 1068) to HR 627 that took effect on February 22 of this year says this.
Section 512 -
Prohibits the Secretary of the Interior from promulgating or enforcing any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm, including an assembled or functional firearm, in any unit of the National Park System (NPS) or the National Wildlife Refuge System (NWRS) if: (1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and (2) the possession of the firearm complies with the law of the state in which the NPS or NWRS unit is located.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-627&tab=summary
As I read Maine's law, linked in my post above, open carry is illegal. It is Maine's state law, regarding firearms posession, that took effect in Acadia on February 22, per Federal law. Unless Maine state law changed since early spring, open carry was illegal within the State, including NPS land.
What is the source of your information? If you have any citations backing up what your saying, I'd be interested to see it.
bronconite
09-02-2010, 07:42
Some extra thing they threw in this Spring. No open carry in Acadia. I may be wrong in the wording. Early Spring, if you had a permit, you could carry on the outside, if that makes sense.
Upon further investigation I found what you were talking about. The Maine senate passed a law that went into effect in July this year that only allows concealed carry permit holders to carry concealed within the park, with the usual exeptions for off duty and retired police officers.
I was wrong in my reading of Maine's carry laws earlier. Open carry is generally legal in Maine.
TheYoungOne
09-21-2010, 15:47
I'm new to hiking, however I'm not new to firearms and I have owned several over the years. While I will probably never thru hike the AT, I do plan on at least hiking sections of the AT and other long trails in my home state of Pennsylvania. Unfortunately I have no other family or friend that enjoy hiking and camping, so pretty much I will be hiking alone.
That said I have "considered" getting a concealed carry permit, so that I can legal carry some sort of handgun concealed in the state of PA. I have frequented gun forums, and those who "Open Carry" a handgun are basically flaunting their 2nd admendment right and in some cases treading on legal "thin ice".
There are handguns that are ultra-light backpackers dream. Kel-Tec makes pocketguns that are small, light, and compact so that no one would never know you have one a gun on you.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/
I can tell you as urban sprawl hits the AT there will eventually be more crime. Also I live in PA, and you will be suprised how much really bad crime there is in places like Stroudsburg, Allentown, and Reading. Also a handgun makes a decent "Last Ditch" defense against an animal attack. Granted a little pocket pistol will probably not kill a black bear, but when you are alone and a bear is bitting into you, its better then just screaming help.
I think its something to consider for those who hike alone, or for females hiking alone. Check with your county sheriff's department. In some states its pretty easy to get a permit, while others you need to take classes and jump through some hoops. Once you get a permit to carry in your state, that does not mean its legal to carry concealed in all 50 state. A PA License is reciprocal in states like Virgina, North Carolina, and New Hampshire, but not in Maryland, New Jersey and New York. Thru hikers who want to carry a handgun would need to do some serious homework and will probably need to get a license to carry in multiple states.
http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/pennsylvania-ccw-state-laws.php
All in all, I think the AT is safe, but you never know, and its best to be prepared. If you choose to avoid carrying a gun, you can still say carry some mace/bear spray and a decent camp knife just in case.
Alligator
09-21-2010, 16:11
This thread is on the same topic as this one (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60409) that was moved.