View Full Version : Vitamin and mineral needs
Megapixel
09-01-2010, 14:48
Based on the Daily Recommended Allowances for individual needs of all vitamins and minerals, say like a multivitamin, would someone thru hiking have greater than 'normal' needs?
I know that calorie needs are way different on a thru, but I am wondering how this would affect vitamin and mineral needs.
That is a very good question. I know some needs go up with exercise and some needs do not. Food consumption goes up also so it tends not to be as much as an issue as one might think. Vitamins and minerals are more of a problem when dieting while sedentary. Still, it would be nice if the RDAs would be based on activity level, but no government or medical authorities seem to do it that way. It would be useful for a hiking diet, especially for someone like myself that has body fat to burn. I am still pretty confident all of the vitamins and minerals can come from real food, but when I start including more stuff like honey it can get sketchy.
4eyedbuzzard
09-01-2010, 15:20
Make sure to feast on fresh fruits and veggies in town to make up for lack of vitamins in starchy / fatty / dehydrated trail foods - kind of the opposite of what you crave if you're a big meat eater. Vitamin supplements are an often debated subject. Some say they work, others say they just make expensive pee.
Good advice on the fruits and veggies. That's another thing that gets fuzzy with vitamins and minerals is whether they are really needed on a regular daily basis or if it is ok to average them over several days, or in some cases even several months. I think iron takes a long time to get depleted, but you don't want to mess with that because it takes a long time to build back up again also. Also, even though it is stored in the bones, when stores are low less is available, and its always better to have a combination of dietary and stores available, I think. Even something like fat for example. Even though we have plenty of stores, you always want a little in your diet even when overweight and dieting. As with other macro and micronutrients, even if your body has what it needs, the friendly little critters in your digestive tract need a good balanced diet also. Usually though, as long as you are eating real and complete food, it has what it needs to be digested well. I mean you probably don't need to be mixing different foods the way we do whenever we eat. I don't know of too many other species that do that. Probably still a good idea though, at least on a daily basis if not for each meal.
I eat alot of oats when hiking. It is pretty complete in itself, but not all that balanced. Skim milk compliments oats very well. Those two alone pretty much give me everything I need, in fairly good balance also, but still not perfect. Oats even have vitamin C, but not enough really. Lemon powder with vitamin C in it would be nice, but quite often it doesn't have vitamin C in it. It's not really the end of the world to carry some lemons or oranges from one town to the next. They are very durable, and tastey, and not all that heavy. Still, when I do such a thing they tend to et eaten the first day. Not sure that's neccessarily a bad thing though. You can get vitamin C along they way though, which is an interesting option, by making certain teas and such.
ChinMusic
09-01-2010, 15:50
Vitamin supplements are an often debated subject. Some say they work, others say they just make expensive pee.
I take em anyway. But I DO NOT take ones with iron. We get plenty even in bad diets. Higher iron levels have been connected to heart disease. The science is disputed but good enough for me.
I was wrong on that. Oats has no vitamin C. It was milk that has some but not enough. Actually skim milk powder probably has none. Anyhow, fun thing to do it to use a tool like this and see how all your food for a given trip add up, and what might be missing. Then you can add something or make up for it in town, or perhaps the first day out of town, like if you grab a bunch of oranges or something. Better to spread them out probably but who knows? It's not like you contract scurvy within a few days. Vitamin C is very important when exercising though, and the anti-oxidants also, especially in natural form. Probably worth carrying them and stretching them out a little. You could eat stuff along the way though, like cedar tea. Probably all sort of stuff out there but even with a good book I am never really sure what I am looking at. Wood sorrel. I know that one and we have alot of that. Not really sure what it is good for though. You really have to do your own research on this stuff because no one really puts it all together the way you would like them too. They might say, this is good for this, or this is a good source of that, but rarely do they tell you how much vitamin C and stuff you might expect to get for a handfull of wood sorrel or a cup of cedar bark or cedar leaf tea.
I take em anyway. But I DO NOT take ones with iron. We get plenty even in bad diets. Higher iron levels have been connected to heart disease. The science is disputed but good enough for me.I would agree that to much iron is bad. I am not sure how much is too much though. I was surprised when I looked into it how difficult it is to get the RDA of iron from your regular diet. All foods seem to have a little, but it quite often comes a little short when you add it all up, depending on the diet, even if the diet is reasonable varied and balanced. Milk is low in iron if I recall. It is deliberately so because that makes infants less vulnerable to bacterial infection, because bacteria tends to flourish on high iron diets. The iron in blood, for example, is protected from bacteria in some way.
A balanced diet is probably close enough though, unless it includes alot of milk, which is where I might have an issue at times. I still wouldn't use supplements though. Always better to use real food. Also, iron is one of those things you can make up for in town I thing, with a big red meat feed or whatever.
Here is that tool...
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5708/2
It would be nice if there was a database out there that included foods like wood sorrel and tree bark and sticks and bugs and stuff. Sometimes you can find herbs that might be close. I make up for iron with herbs, especially if I am drinking alot of milk. Alot of herbs have iron. You can lookup stuff like dandelion greens also. Not too much stuff from the woods though.
Rose hips have alot of vitamin C. Not always abundant on the trail, but something you might find in town if you wanted to save alot of weight. You might scavenge a bunch if you find them along the trail also, though I am less inclined to do so in high traffic trails and seasons. You can get yor RDA of vitamin C from Rose Hips on 0.5 ounce per day, and 1.6 kcal/g along with it, so you really adding only about 0.25 ounce per day for Vitamin C. Oranges or lemons would net out at about 2.5 to 3.0 oz per day for the same vitamin C. Still not that bad really. Who wouldn't want a fresh orange or lemon every day?
I understand wood sorrel is very high in vitamin C, but I haven't found out how much.
Can also cause gout and kidney problems, so some caution and moderation is warranted.
ChinMusic
09-01-2010, 16:45
I have no idea what the additional needs are for long-distance hiking. I'm sure the needs are much different from sitting behind a desk.
My plans are to eat what I want (can carry) on the trail and load up on veggies and fruits while in town. I will be carrying vitamins. How much good they do me is unknown, but so is most everything else in life.
I ain't into measuring and fixating on this food or that. I'm DEF not into "wood sorrel and tree bark and sticks and bugs and stuff".
garlic08
09-01-2010, 17:05
Don't worry so much about numbers. Eat real food (whole grains, some meat if you want, at least some vegetables, and fruit) and you'll do fine. If you eat enough good food for calories, you'll get your nutritional needs, unless something is wrong. If you subsist on junk food and alcohol, you might have a problem.
Read "In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan. The approach he backs sounds sensible to me: Be the type of person who takes supplements, but don't take the supplements. The type of person who is concerned enough about his/her health to think about supplements also probably eats very well and doesn't need the supplements. Conversely, the person who really needs supplements is probably never going to even think about them.
Doc Mike
09-01-2010, 17:08
One generic multivit per day is plenty and easier than finding the right plants and roots.
Doc Mike
Danielsen
09-01-2010, 17:55
Eat real foods and you'll get enough. If you try to subsist on pop-tarts, peanut butter, snickers and oatmeal you might have some issues (though there are plenty more issues with that diet than just vitamin deficiencies). Keep in mind that deriving most of your calories from carbohydrates involves metabolic processes that flush many vitamins like vitamin C out of the body more quickly, requiring higher intake. Healthy fats (monounsaturated (omega-3) fats, saturated fats, and a limited amount of polyunsaturated (omega-6) fats) are some of the best fuels you can give your body, particularly for something like a thru-hike (avoiding vegetable oils, trans fats, and any type of hydrogenated fat, including margarines like "olivio" which claim to be healthy just because their starting ingredient was a healthy fat). Many of your needed nutrients are fat-soluble and are surprisingly abundant in good, natural fat sources. Since fat is considerably more calorie-dense than carbohydrate you may even be able to save some ounces. ;)
One generic multivit per day is plenty and easier than finding the right plants and roots.
Doc MikeTrue enough, but you could also argue that it is easier to go to the gym or a movie theatre than to go for a hike. I don't depend on it, but I like to think and learn about stuff like wood sorrel and spruce or cedar tea as part of the experience.
If I was doing a thru-hike I probably would consider a generic multi-vitamin. I would do the math first though and see how my hiking food plan added up. The multi-vitamin would come in handy if I found I couldn't stick to healthy wholesome foods. If it was just vitamin C I temded to be short on I might just take that. I think the whole plethora of individual vitamins and minerals you see in drug stores is fairly insane.
Doc Mike
09-01-2010, 21:25
JAK I agre it is insane when you look at the number of choices and formulations of vitamins.
I believe the best course of action is a well balanced diet and a generic vitamin. The super, mega, complete, ultra thing is marketing and as stated earlier just makes pretty urine.
The one thing that I believe would be the most benificial would be a calcium supplement on a thru hike. Think about it 5 months of continous weight bearing exercise can increase your bone mass and the calcium needs to come from somewhere. This is especially important for the ladies both young and old since they have the higher rates of osteopenia and osteoporosis.
Doc Mike
ChinMusic
09-01-2010, 22:04
think about it 5 months of continous weight bearing exercise can increase your bone mass and the calcium needs to come from somewhere.
cheese.....
Vitamins come in two types, water soluble and fat soluble. Fat soluble (A, D, E & K) can be stored for awhile. Water soluble are basically used or urinated.
Megapixel
09-01-2010, 22:18
Vitamins come in two types, water soluble and fat soluble. Fat soluble (A, D, E & K) can be stored for awhile. Water soluble are basically used or urinated.
this begins to answer my question. Thanks!
ChinMusic
09-01-2010, 22:26
this begins to answer my question. Thanks!
Just remember the word KADE and don't mega-dose those suckers....bad, bad, bad.
I take em anyway. But I DO NOT take ones with iron. We get plenty even in bad diets. Higher iron levels have been connected to heart disease. The science is disputed but good enough for me.This is why many Men's one-a-day formulas exclude iron. However I thought it was due to possibly too high levels being linked to prostate cancer in men, hence why it is precluded in the men's formula. I saw a study recently on vitamins, and the different brands were tested for purity, contaminants, etc...and I believe they stated that no contaminants were found in any that were tested. Also, I believe Walmart's Equate brand tested just as well for purity and potency as any of the other's. Also, as other's have said, vitamins can be insurance and supplement a healthy diet, however they are not a replacement to one. Also I understand that the vitamins in real food are actually more completely assimilated into a persons system, and better used, than vitamins being consumed in pill or tablet form.
ChinMusic
09-01-2010, 22:36
Also I understand that the vitamins in real food are actually more completely assimilated into a persons system, and better used, than vitamins being consumed in pill or tablet form.
For the most part, yes. Minerals not in a chelated form mostly just pass through. Vit-C not in the "D" form does nothing for us.
Food is best. A few years of evolution have made us pretty efficient with food, but I think we all know that.
Jonnycat
09-01-2010, 23:54
I take C, CaMgZn, B12, and fish oil as the only pill form supplements to my diet. Same as when I'm in town.
I think making sure you are getting enough protein is even more essential (well, really it's just as important).
JAK I agre it is insane when you look at the number of choices and formulations of vitamins.
I believe the best course of action is a well balanced diet and a generic vitamin. The super, mega, complete, ultra thing is marketing and as stated earlier just makes pretty urine.
The one thing that I believe would be the most benificial would be a calcium supplement on a thru hike. Think about it 5 months of continous weight bearing exercise can increase your bone mass and the calcium needs to come from somewhere. This is especially important for the ladies both young and old since they have the higher rates of osteopenia and osteoporosis.
Doc Mikegood stuff. thanks for the insight.
fiddlehead
09-02-2010, 07:40
Eat an apple a day and you don't need any stinkin vitamin tabs.
OK, they are heavy, Dry them.
So how important is vitamin C, in particular, while hiking?
Is the RDA enough, or should it be increased with activity level?
Is it enough to have lts extra in town, or is it better to take daily?
What is a good natural source? Can you dehydrate the food without losing it?
Doc Mike
09-02-2010, 08:07
The question is what is enough? The RDA level, the amount it takes to prevent disease, what?
One lime per week will prevent scurvy.
As stated before the fat soluble vits are ADEK and assuming you have an adequate supply of fat and vitamins these take a long time to become depleted. The others are water soluble.
Long story short version, you will be fine either way on the AT because of frequent town stops.
Doc Mike
john gault
09-02-2010, 09:26
I'm having a rethink on nutrition, mainly from things I've read about these people http://www.ultralegends.com/tarahumara-indians/. But also from another book I'm reading on paleolithic vs. neolithic diets from a book I'm reading now: Pandora's Seed by Spencer Wells.
But in general I agree with everyone that said to just eat real food and of course the town visits help to fill in the gap. Taking a multivitamin can't hurt, but not vital (if you eat real food), but for me they're useless off the trail.
Danielsen
09-02-2010, 10:31
So how important is vitamin C, in particular, while hiking?
Is the RDA enough, or should it be increased with activity level?
Is it enough to have lts extra in town, or is it better to take daily?
What is a good natural source? Can you dehydrate the food without losing it?
While vitamin C does get flushed more quickly with higher activity, you'll probably be eating enough in town to get what you need. If you're really worried, toss some pine needles in your morning tea (learn to ID, of course). Dehydrating food can remove a lot of vitamin C, both going with the water and being destroyed by the process (same reason why we don't get much vitamin C from meat; we cook it!) so fresh C-containing plants along the trail are better if that concerns you. While some like Sorrel have some potential issues in quantity, it doesn't take much to get your vitamins.