View Full Version : Cuben Fiber Quilts
Hey, Has anyone had any experience with a cuben fiber quilt? I have been really leaning towards a quilt after having used my current bag as a quilt most of the time on trail anyways. I am a total gram weenie and yes, I have no problem sleeping a little cold once in a while if it means lighter weight. I actually sleep way to hot in my 20 degree bag used quilt style as it is now.
I am really looking at these: http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/
The 7.4 ounce weight, Water resistant VBL design/strategy has always intrigued me since the Colin Fletcher days.
I like that combat quilt with the momentum strip. Seems like it would work well with a minimalist tarp or Gatewood cape.
Anyhow thanks in advance for any experiences you can share using a cuben quilt. :sun
Well, 7.4oz is definitely lighter then my 18oz Golite 20F quilt that I used on the pct (which was slightly light on the insulation for that rating, but with my bivy sack, I was never cold, even when it was snowing). So I'm definitely a quilt advocate.
Cuben definitely isn't that breathable which is why it works for tarps so you'll have to decide how you like sleeping damp from your own body moisture. If the down ever gets wet, I assume the quilt would take a long time to dry. So I do like the idea of that momentum strip as momentum is very breathable (my MLD bivy sack is made of it and I never had a problem with condensation). My only issue with that strip is I'd want it to stop some distance short of the foot end so you remain protected from spray under your shelter since it looks like you aren't going to use a bivy sack with that small tarp.
I remember at the last ADZPCTKO, there was a guy who made a homemade cuben fiber quilt who entered in the gear contest (I think he was a 2010 thru). I wonder if someone on the PCT-L would know his contact info. You also might ask over at backpackinglight (forum's free to register for) if you haven't already since I remember reading awhile back of some guys playing with them.
Oh weight, that 7.4oz can't be the total weight can it? I would think the down alone would be at least that if not more. Momentum fabric is water resistant, but it will wet out in any significant moisture (heavy dew or direct rain). My momentum quilt was fine fore spray, but my quilt had its own protective layer over the dawn and still got slightly damp after 2days of rain. Hence why I said, idealy I'd like the foot box area to be all cuben fiber unless you are using a bivy sack over it.
Correction... my momentum bivy was fine for spray, but my quilt had its own protective layer over the down...
Miner, you're thinking of Evan. I also have a cuben quilt, but mine came from EnLIGHTened Equipment. I'll bring mine to ADZPCTKO next year. If I remember correctly Evan used a thru-hiker kit and bought cuben fiber directly from Cubictech. Even initially didn't build his with a foot box and always used a bivy, although he later added some type of foot box. I used 0.5 oz/yd cuben and I think Evan did too.
You can probably go without the momentum strip. Ask Tim about that. I swear I remember him building one without the momentum strip and found that it still lofted fully without the strip. Personally I think I'd rather not have it since it increases the risk of getting the down wet from touching condensation in your shelter. That never happened to me though. In fact I wouldn't really worry about getting the down wet. If you did somehow get the down wet you have very serious problems.
Cuben fiber is so expensive that I don't really see the point in using synthetic insulation. Down is lighter and compresses better. Down also allows you to shift the insulation somewhat to adjust the warmth of the quilt.
The only problem I had with cuben is that it caused me to sweat more at night. I already sweat a lot while hiking and go to bed smelly where I sweat even more and the nonbreathable quilt just makes things worse overnight. Evan didn't seem to sweat at all and didn't say it was a problem for him.
I'm still quite happy with my quilt. ~20 ounces in a compact package is a fantastic thing. It's a zero degree quilt, but as long as I sleep under my cuben tarp tent I can ventilate well enough to stay comfortable when it's warm outside...but that's not as easy when cowboy camping in a bivy.
As for your quilt, I highly recommend building it slightly warm because wearing extra clothing for emergency warmth beneath it will not work well due to the vapor barrier effect....it should work okay for a night, but you'll want to make sure you dry your clothing thoroughly the next day.
I love all this great info! Thanks Y'all!
It is funny that just a while ago, 2009, I actually thought Cuben fiber was a joke. Thanks to Miner and many other Thru hikers like Snorkel, frogger, and Birdman, I am becoming educated!
Anyhow that company you mentioned, Cubic Tech http://www.cubictechnology.com/gear.htm
is a great resource. I often imagined I would make my own gear and a quilt seems like a worthy project. I understand Cuben needs to be joined by seam taping rather than sewing. I also heard it takes a rather expensive investment for the tooling.
Hey, this makes me wonder how the Momentum fabric is joined to the Cuben fiber of the Combat quilt.
I am bound and determined to get my "Big Three" (Pack Bag Shelter) under 3 lbs. I am at 4 right now. The combat quilt or similar at under 16 ounces would do it for me.
The PCT I had a 10.5 base, CDT was 12lbs.
I am absolutely going to hike the AT with no more than an 8lb base weight and I know the place to start is with the big stuff. Besides on the divide I used my WM Ultralight as a quilt most nights and I noticed how much extra material was just laying around me doing no good.
I guess I need to figure out how to join Cuben to itself and other fabrics before i decide how feasible making my own quilt will be.
Then again I sure like the looks of these Combat quilts with the Momentum strip, already built, ready to go! It's only money!:-?
Check out these weights! I got them from Enlightened's website!
Some actual weights from quilts we have made.
Epiphany- 46(1/2 tapered)x36x76 x 1" loft .33 cuben fiber - 7.1oz
Epiphany- 49x37x76 x 1.5" loft .33 cuben fiber w/breathability stripe - 10.5oz
Epiphany- 46x34x76 x 2" loft .33 cuben fiber w/breathability stripe - 11.6oz
Epiphany- 49x37x78 x 1.75" loft .33 cuben fiber w/breathability stripe - 11.7oz
Epiphany- 50(1/2 tapered)x40x82 x 2" loft .51 cuben fiber w/breathability stripe - 14.85oz
Epiphany- 52(1/2 tapered)x38x78x3"loft .48 cuben fiber w/breathability stripe- 20.2oz
EpiphanyUQ- 42x77x2.5" loft .33 cuben fiber - 13.5oz
EpiphanyXP- 46x34x71 2.5ozXP .33 cuben fiber- 8.4oz
EpiphanyXP- 48x34x71 3.7ozCOMBAT .33 cuben fiber- 12.3oz
EpiphanyXP- 52x38x82 5ozXP .51 cuben fiber- 21.1oz
Revelation- 50x38x80x1.25"loft - 15.1oz
Prodigy 49(1/2tapered)x37x78 2.5oz XP -14.6oz
Protege - 5oz XP 11.2oz
I can feel a wave of "OUNCE MADNESS" sweeping over my body.. OMG how long before it's March 15th?:banana
I have a cuben fiber food bag and it just doesn't seem breathable. Its almost like plastic. Is Cuben fiber cuben fiber or are there different types?
It's better to sew cuben fiber when strength is needed, but it's not a big deal for something like a quilt. All the seams in my cuben quilt are sewn.
You mean its better to NOT sew cuben fiber when strength is needed?
Oops, got that backwards. Sewn, taped or glued. It doesn't really matter for a quilt, although you will want to consider how the quilt will be able to loft if you go without the momentum strip.
That makes a lot of sense! A Cuben tarp would need a lot of strength thus no sewing. But a quilt it really wouldn't matter. Thanks for the insight. So I could sew my own. Iv'e got access to an ancient Singer sewing machine..:-?
Yea, I know Cuben does not breathe. Using a Cuben quilt would mean following the priciples of Vapor Barrier Layer VBL technique. In Colin Fletcher's complete walker he talks about how VBL was popular even back then for extreme cold. Like others have noted you don't wear any insulating garments under the Cuben quilt as your bodies moisture could build up and soak them. In Colin's book I believe he wore a single Polypropylene layer under his VBL clothing to prevent it from feeling too sticky.
The idea of a true VBL is to trap heat as well as "insensible" body moisture (sweat) there by reducing evaporative heat loss. In theory your body would produce less perspiration as the humidity built up under the garment provided you did not overheat.
In the case of the quilt made of Cuben the VBL is a byproduct of the material but it brings up intriguing possibilities. I suppose if a person adapted to the feeling associated there could be big gains to be had in weight savings and resistance to wet conditions.
I got trashed by a lot of rain on the CDT in Montana this year. Things worked out but it left me thinking how cool it would be if i could just embrace the moisture instead of fret over it.
A light nearly waterproof quilt allows a smaller lighter tarp. The VBL properties of the quilt material allow an advantage in heat retention necesitating less insulation and therefore a lighter quilt without the use of a bivy sack. The ability to just crawl under my quilt with wet feet instead of having to dry out first would be an advantage as well.
I am getting amped up about this! I think I am going to either build my own quilt or buy one to try out this winter and see how I can adapt to this strategy. The benefits are huge: Less weight, Less worry, quicker bedtime.
I have a cuben fiber food bag and it just doesn't seem breathable. Its almost like plastic. Is Cuben fiber cuben fiber or are there different types? It isn't breathable which is why its great for tarps. However, it isn't exactly like plastic so the feel against the skin isn't that bad. A cuben fiber quilt is more like a quilt with a vabor layer built in. The original idea for using it in a quilt was for use in low temps when a VB is desireable. For warmer weather, not everyone is going to be happy with the results since moisture is traped. Though being a quilt, the venting is pretty good. How it works out will depends on the individual and how they manage. However, you can't beat the weight if you understand the compromises involved. Cuben fibers main weakness is its abrasion resistance, but for most people, that won't be an issue in a quilt. I first started hearing about cuben fiber being used in a qullt back in 2009, but that whole VB issue has held me off though I like the weights. I'm still waiting for more people to test drive the idea before I commit to spending that obscene amount of money for another down bag that I already have 4 of .
I just thought of a way to test VBL comfort without spending a dime. I am going to take a leftover piece of Tyvek and roll it up inside my WM bag and start sleeping in it. The Tyvek sould mimic the VBL propeties of Cuben well enough for me to get an idea how it's gonna work. It is suddenly a damn good thing I am single! :banana
I don't know if using tyvek would be close enough. Isn't the reason Henry Shires built a shelter out of tyvek to get the extra breathability it has over silnylon? I'd try silnylon, or better yet, trash bags or sheet plastic.
Hey, Has anyone had any experience with a cuben fiber quilt? I have been really leaning towards a quilt after having used my current bag as a quilt most of the time on trail anyways. I am a total gram weenie and yes, I have no problem sleeping a little cold once in a while if it means lighter weight. I actually sleep way to hot in my 20 degree bag used quilt style as it is now.
I am really looking at these: http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/
The 7.4 ounce weight, Water resistant VBL design/strategy has always intrigued me since the Colin Fletcher days.
I like that combat quilt with the momentum strip. Seems like it would work well with a minimalist tarp or Gatewood cape.
Anyhow thanks in advance for any experiences you can share using a cuben quilt. :sun
I remember passing you in southern Montana on the CDT in Aug this yr as you were headed NOBO and I was headed SOBO. You had your WM Ultralite 20* sleeping bag draped over you shoulders as you were hiking to dry it out. It had somehow gotten wet. At the time, I thought it was a bit warm to have that that low a rated bag. Perhaps, you normally slept at higher elevs where it was colder or you are a cold sleeper. I don't know. At the time I was comfortably sleeping in a WM Highlite 35* sleeping bag. I later went to a colder rated sleeping bag once I reached Colorado and higher elevs. Maybe, that's why you recently remember often using that sleeping bag as a quilt and sleeping too hot. What I'm saying is that perhaps you just had too low of a rated bag for part of your recent CDT hike and that's why you are thinking about your recent sleeping experiences the way you are.
I'm thinking much along the same lines as Miner. If using Cuben as the shell material for a sleeping bag I'm thinking you could experience insensible moisture being trapped inside your sleeping bag resulting in a wet sleep. Cuben is WP and really doe not breathe! I guess it would be much like using a VBL, as you already mention, or using a sleeping bag with a WP shell. The insensible moisture from your body has no where to go! I think this is one of the reasons why Enlightenedequipment has that very breathable Momentum strip in their quilt. The Momentum strip helps the insensible moisture to escape and provides for better lofting of a down fill. I would also be interested in noting the long term lofting characteristics of a down sleeping bag or quilt ENTIRELY made of a WP non-breathable shell like Cuben.
Where I see a possible wt saving advantage of a Cuben fiber shelled down sleeping bag is if one regularly uses down sleeping bags and a VBL in winter on longer backcountry treks and you want to maintain loft in a down bag.
I think if you were to slip into a Cuben fiber shelled sleeping bag with wet feet that moisture would largely still be there in the morning.
Since Cuben is a fabric used mainly by gram weenies I can't see why an UL would combine it with a synthetic fill material for sleeping bags or quilts. Seems counter productive. Most ULers would use the more thermally efficient greater warmth to wt ratio more compressible high grade less wt down fill.
Where I see the greatest use for Cuben in a sleeping shell is in a quilt with its increased venting options as opposed to a sleeping bag. Quilts are another product of the UL community and using Cuben may mean cutting another 2-3 ozs from a shell quilt material for gram weenies. I possibly see a wt savings under some hiking conditions if one was to combine a WP UL Cuben shelled down quilt with a smallish UL Cuben tarp or Gatewood cape. In this case you might be able to leave the bivy and/or VBL at home!
Personally, even with all the wt saving design characteristics of a quilt, I think a WM Ultralite 20* sleeping bag, a well made and accurately temp rated bag, perhaps even conservatively temp rated, with its 16 ozs of 850 down fill is warmer than a 20 * quilt with ? ozs of down fill weighing less than 8 ozs - where's the down? where's the warmth coming from in a quilt weighing less than 8 ozs? even if it's made with a Cuben shell? Seems some of that heat you are thinking you are getting by having a Cuben shell is wet insensible heat from your own body. Maybe that works for you?
One thing I'd love to try with a cuben quilt is to have it sealed up air tight and have a port like air mattresses do. The quilt should be able to loft on its own, but being able to adjust the loft and add extra loft by inflation would be handy.
I guess it would be much like using a VBL, as you already mention, or using a sleeping bag with a WP shell. The insensible moisture from your body has no where to go! I think this is one of the reasons why Enlightenedequipment has that very breathable Momentum strip in their quilt. The Momentum strip helps the insensible moisture to escape and provides for better lofting of a down fill.
The strip is solely for allowing the quilt to loft. It is not in the inside, so there's no way insensible body moisture would get in it that way.
I would also be interested in noting the long term lofting characteristics of a down sleeping bag or quilt ENTIRELY made of a WP non-breathable shell like Cuben.
Why would it be any different? If anything, it might loft better over the years because it's not possible for dirt and body oils to get inside and muck up the feathers.
I think if you were to slip into a Cuben fiber shelled sleeping bag with wet feet that moisture would largely still be there in the morning.
That depends on the foot box construction and how much you sweat. My foot box has a zipper and draw cord closure. I sweat a lot and on cold mornings I notice moisture dripping down the outside where my sweat had condensed. With less sweating and more ventilation this shouldn't be a problem as body heat would vaporize the moisture and drive it out.
Cuben fiber comes in different wts much as silny, spinnaker. etc. .33 Cuben as used in Enlightenedequipment's Epiphany quilts is very lite wt Cuben. I would understand, even as an ULer who normally understands some of the trade-offs that can occur using UL gear, the limitations of this very lite material. Wouldn't want to see all those expensive down feathers blowing away in the wind! Would you?
[QUOTE=leaftye;1060352]One thing I'd love to try with a cuben quilt is to have it sealed up air tight and have a port like air mattresses do. The quilt should be able to loft on its own, but being able to adjust the loft and add extra loft by inflation would be handy.
That sounds like you may be onto something!
The strip is solely for allowing the quilt to loft. It is not in the inside, so there's no way insensible body moisture would get in it that way.
Ahh, now I understand!
Why would it be any different? If anything, it might loft better over the years because it's not possible for dirt and body oils to get inside and muck up the feathers.
Well, you kinda answered your own question already. Yes, the dirt and oils can effect down loft but can't down loft also be reduced if the down does not breathe? I guess Leaftye you are trying to find a way of protecting the down enough but also allowing it to fully loft at the same time. Am I thinking about that right?
That depends on the foot box construction and how much you sweat. My foot box has a zipper and draw cord closure. I sweat a lot and on cold mornings I notice moisture dripping down the outside where my sweat had condensed. With less sweating and more ventilation this shouldn't be a problem as body heat would vaporize the moisture and drive it out.
The escaping of insensible vapor has to be addressed some way or you quite likely will wake up drenched! Your foot box construction, foot zipper, draw cord - are those features in your cuben fiber shelled quilt? Little bit different in a sleeping bag made of a Cuben shell without all those venting options?
I don't see why a cuben quilt with the momentum strip would loft any differently than a traditional fabric other than taking longer to do it. Ultimate loft is not affected, just the rate at which it is reached.
I hate to imagine a nonbreathable sleeping bag, although I did want one before. Do you remember that inflatable sleeping bag/bivy/pad combo from about a decade ago? I'm still working on venting properly myself. I tend to allow to get myself too hot early in the night, which causes lots of sweat and condensation. I'm still getting used to sleeping with this quilt, but I'll probably still sweat a lot due to being fat and out of shape. I hope to improve this a lot for next thru hiking season. As I said earlier, Evan doesn't seem to have this problem. He's a lot thinner and hikes a lot faster than me, the latter indicating his state of fitness.
If you have a Cuben fiber shelled quilt with all those venting options that makes the most sense to me Leaftye.
Okay now that we have the subject rolling I am gonna lay thie one on you. Just like Leftye mentioned I remember that inflatable bag/bivy combo from decades back. I think it used to be in the back of the backpacker magazine next to the ad for the whistle/compass/radiation detector.
Anyway it was called a Cocoon5 or something like that. It made me wonder about an inflatable sleeping bag. Of course a simple chamber of plastic filled with air would allow convection to take place. But if there was down fill inside like a big D.A.M. Come to think of it that Cocoon 5 thingy was like 9 lbs but prbably due to it being made of heavy plastic like and air matress. How about a Cuben fiber quilt with a mementum port with a sealable flap over it. Open the port and shake the crap out of the quilt until you get loft. Seal the port and sleep in the rain if you want. Open the port and roll the quilt up.
This is all so interesting!
By the way Dogwood, you are absolutely correct that my recent experience on the CDT has colored my judgement about things. It is like a pendulum swinging back and forth. Something happens and I compensate.. the interesting thing is I am over compensating less and less each time. I can't help but want to "monkey" around with my system even though all in all it was a success. It is funny you happened to catch the single time on the trail I was wearing my bag "Jardine" style to dry it out! That was right before the funniest named lake on the trail.. "Slag-o-Melt" Lake! LOL!
I am glad you mentioned that the Momentum strip is on the outside. I was wondering about that. of course it looks like you could order pretty much anything you want from http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/ and you could certainly build anything.
Iceaxe, that could work. Maybe even put it on a corner and fold it over and clip it or cinch it with some shock cord. It wouldn't need much of a seal, so I bet that would work. Even if it did leak air via the vent or an unfortunate puncture it would still only loft up or down to the normal size.
I believe you're right about Tim. I was actually going to get the abbreviated momentum strip mentioned earlier, but Tim convinced me it wasn't necessary. I'm sure he would have done it if he was requested. Also consider that the cuben quilts he makes came about because a customer requested it.
Sorry, don't recall any inflatable sleeping bag. Interesting idea though.
Seems like your brain is still in full thru-hiker mode IceAxe! LOL! Already thinking about the AT next yr, hey? Wish you the best. It's my guess that the AT is going to seem easy to you since you already thrued the PCT and CDT.
I slept at Upper Slag-A-Melt lake. I was wondering how it got its name.
Hey I am not gonna fool myself into thinking the Appalachian Trail will be easy for me just because I hiked the other two big trails first. Many of my thru hiker buddies say it is the most physically demanding of them. I also heard it can be under tree cover much of the time. "I am kinda a wide open space guy mostly." I am just going to keep an open mind and let the experience develop in it's own way... Oh who am I kidding! I am giddy as Kid thinking about hiking another great trail!
I can't wait to see what the AT is going to be like. I am the luckiest piece of hiker trash on earth allowing myself to just chuck everyhting else and hike three years in a row. Triple in Three Sounds Good to Me!
You are right about my brain being stuck in hiker mode. It is all I think about. My pack is still loaded from the CDT. I take it with me everywhere I go. All I do is dream up ways to improve my system, and dream about the trail.
Wait I hear a song coming on...
"Mama's don't let you babies grow up to be Hiker Trash.." :p
"There always alone, there never at home.."
"Except when their hiking a trail."
Okay.. I am a way better plumber than I am a songwriter.. really.
Right now I am obsessed with fine tuning my systems. I was super happy with all my gear on the CDT but what else am I supposed to do with my energies until March?
Actually I really am totally serious about this quilt. I am really happy I have y'all on White Blaze to talk to.. really keeps the fires burning within Ya' Know.:banana
Danielsen
10-17-2010, 20:28
Cuben fiber comes in different wts much as silny, spinnaker. etc. .33 Cuben as used in Enlightenedequipment's Epiphany quilts is very lite wt Cuben. I would understand, even as an ULer who normally understands some of the trade-offs that can occur using UL gear, the limitations of this very lite material. Wouldn't want to see all those expensive down feathers blowing away in the wind! Would you?
0.33 should easily be tough enough for a quilt. Some have even made and used successful tarps from it. You have to be a lot more careful with it for such a use, of course, but when some make tarps from plain mylar and duct tape, you gotta figure it can work if you make it. ;) Most quilts shouldn't see a whole lot of wear and tear, so 0.33 should be just fine. It's probably at least as tough as the taffeta so many bags and quilts are currently made of.
Two ideas to toss into the mix:
-Seal the lower portion, either by taping or seam sealing (just make sure air can still travel from the top portion or underside to loft it). Thus the lower portion would be fully waterproofed and not necessarily have to be under the tarp. I used a similar setup this weekend with a very small tarp (about 4x6) and the foot of my quilt extending out from under the bottom in a half-bivy I made from a propore wp/b poncho for the top and mylar for the floor. No rain, but it could have rained a bit and I would have stayed dry.
-Construct the quilt so that it's exactly the same on both sides. If it gets too damp inside and venting isn't helping, just turn it over and turn the footbox inside out. Now the damp interior is on the outside and the dryer (hopefully) exterior is on the inside. Hopefully the heat of the quilt should then evaporate most of that moisture off the outside of the quilt before you have to flip it again. I had to use a similar tactic a couple times sleeping under a reflective space blanket; in that case, however, the heat evaporating the sweat off the outside of the flipped blanket was drawn straight from my body, so I ended up chilled anyways. :( With the down as an intermediary, this would likely be less of an issue.
I do intend to construct a vapor barrier down quilt of my own at some point, but if I make it part of the sub-$150 sub-5 lb. challenge I'm considering I'll probably use something cheaper. Like a said, for a quilt it doesn't have to be nearly as tough as it needs to be for a tarp.
HeartFire
10-17-2010, 21:05
I understand Cuben needs to be joined by seam taping rather than sewing. I also heard it takes a rather expensive investment for the tooling.
Cuben fiber can certainly be sewn, I'm not sure what you mean by a rather expensive investment for tooling, I use cuben for tents now, and it is more difficult than sil nylon to sew nicely, you just sew it like any other fabric. It needs to be seam sealed differently than sil, and it can be taped.
My cuben fiber solo tents weigh about 15 oz.
http://www.lightheartgear.com (http://www.lightheartgear.com/) The one I made for myself with a lightweight cuben floor was 13.8 oz after sewing, with all the tie our cord and a small (one inch square duct tape patch on the floor) and a bit of dirt in the tent, it's now at 15 oz. Add one more oz for the stakes. Thats for a really roomy double wall tent.
Judy
Turtle Feet
10-17-2010, 21:07
Love your post Iceaxe - comforting to know I'm not the only one with HTS (Hiker Trash Syndrome).
So here's my question - what about the noise of cuben? I have a small cuben food sack and it's pretty 'crinkly'. Don't know if some of that noise calms down as it softens up a bit, but I sure wouldn't want to try sleeping with an entire quilt covered in it.
TF
d29754e6-c280-4671-99ee-6ba676dd1803
1.03.01
I have several cuben stuff sacks that I carry things in, food sack, clothing/pillow sack, misc sack. I also have a cuben fiber tarp. I never thought of cuben as crinkly; at least to the point that it made an impression on me on the PCT or any other trip in the last 2 years. It certainly is nothing like spinneker fabric.
Turtle Feet
10-17-2010, 21:59
I have several cuben stuff sacks that I carry things in, food sack, clothing/pillow sack, misc sack. I also have a cuben fiber tarp. I never thought of cuben as crinkly; at least to the point that it made an impression on me on the PCT or any other trip in the last 2 years. It certainly is nothing like spinneker fabric.
Well, this is true! I had to pack up pretty early on the last morning of my most recent trip. I was basically the only person awake in the campground, until I started taking my tarp down that is...:o.
d29754e6-c280-4671-99ee-6ba676dd1803
1.03.01