Protecting yourself from people

[Mountain_Goat]

I'm planning my nobo thru hike in 2 weeks.I am starting solo and was thinking about bringing some sort of protection in the form of mace or pepper spray.Not to harm animals but moreso for creepy people who will not take no for an answer.

from looking online there are 100's of manufactures and brands.Was wondering what others used and found to be the most effective.:-?

[Sickmont]

I love pepper spray. Tastes like crap but sure adds heat to some dishes. But seriously, do you think you'll really need it? I believe theres way more weirdos out in the cities than there are on the trail. If you can walk around Boston fairly comfortably than you'll be more than okay on the trail.

[leaftye]

It doesn't matter if you're just trying to stop someone that merely creeps you out. It's not like you need some awesome can of pepper spray to stop a psychotic killer. Actually, I reverse that. You better get some really good stuff because if you spray someone just because they creeped you out, you may need it again when they try to kill you. So get a big can of bear spray. I forget what it's called, but you can easily find it if you google what's the best stuff for grizzlies.

[wrongway_08]

You will already have a knife on you. Why carry extra protection/gear?

Don't think it is worth it myself but if it will make you feel good to carry it, by all means do. I would stick with a small container. Get the highest pepper percentage you can find (may as well carry the good stuff!).

Keeping an eye out, pay attention and look like you know what you are doing. That will keep away most that might be thinking of doing something stupid. Don't think you will find much to be concerened with.

Enjoy the hike!

[10-K]

A trekking pole makes a pretty decent defensive weapon. Better than pepper spray IMO.

[Carbo]

No easy answer to this since it depends more on your fears than what is real. You may be better off just hanging with a few other hikers, if possible, until you get comfortable. If you have bad vibes from anyone, move on. Carry the spray if it makes you feel comfortable, but I strongly doubt if you will have any reason to use it.

[Mountain_Goat]

Thanks for everyones advice.I suppose i might lessen the load going without it.People always instill fear and make you feel as though you need body armour to leave the house.I will skip it and just use common sense and the community of hikers as support.Thanks again.

[leaftye]

A trekking pole makes a pretty decent defensive weapon. Better than pepper spray IMO.

Trekking pole for stabbing (http://www.luxurylite.com/ssindex.html)

[Camping Dave]

People always instill fear and make you feel as though you need body armour to leave the house.

And you're worried about other people creeping you out? You're creeping me out.

[Mountain_Goat]

hahaha @ camping dave. City swellers tend to be more creeped out by people whom choose to live in the woods for 6 months. They are so use to shootings and stabbings that the idea of isolating yourself in a world of wildlife would assure certain death without a weapon. :)

[Tuckahoe64]

Regardless of how you choose to protect yourself, please make sure you take the time to research the weapon laws of each of the states as they are going to differ. You will find that what is legal in one state will not be in another.

[mweinstone]

if you need to calm an angry attacker why use pepper? wouldnt a cammamile spray or a st johns wart spray be more calming? carrying a weapon carrys such responsibilitys that it interfears with the footlooseness and fancyfreeness of a hike.

[beartripper]

If you get bear spray get the kind that will spray more then five seconds

[mweinstone]

you cannot safley carry a weapon you have never fired. buy three and shoot one off in wind and one at night. remember that oxygen is the only cure for pepper spray. if you get it on you, strip and stand in a breeze. if in eyes, hold eyes open and flush with water.

[Croft]

Then there's always the ploy of talking about why you didn't bring a gun on the trail like all your friends had recommended. And your reason is because if you were going to kill someone you'd much rather make it up close and personal, and you get a visceral satisfaction in using a knife rather than an impersonal gun. If you feel threatened, trash talk is a weapon too.

Don't get wierded up everyone--this is just a joke...

[LoneRidgeRunner]

One bad thing about pepper spray....if the wind is wrong you will only spray your self, in which case the attacker now has the advantage over you.... I've only been attacked by humans in the cities and then only rarely..maybe you've been watching way to many movies? Never had a problem with a human in the woods...

[Jelly-Bean]

I am planning on bringing something myself. I do NOT think I will need it, but will have it on me to feel safe and sleep better at night. Someone told me to bring wasp spray b/c it shoots further. But I don't know where you would get a tiny can of wasp spray.

Everyone here tells me to bring a gun! I just laugh it off and I am sure some find it laughable to bring pepper spray. But isn't it sort of the same as wearing cotton? It may rain, it may not rain...

[LordoftheWings]

You personal protection is your choice and should be matched with your skills, not your fears. Your standard gear you take with you, if used properly should thwart even the largest of assailants, like me (6'2'' 375) If you stab me with a pole or a knife I'll most likely forget what it was I was trying to do in the first place. Having the spray isn't a horrible idea either but as was stated earlier. With great power comes great responsibility. Educate yourself on the laws and usage of whatever route you take. After living in New Orleans for a couple of years, I can say-when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.

[skinewmexico]

I'd be a lot more afraid of Boston than the backcountry.

[mweinstone]

my neighborhood is grusomly crime filled each night. horrid screams for help and massive wreks by drunken drivers and cops on bullhorns yelling pull over and all maner of mayhem just outside my window since i was born here in philadelphia in 1961.i got the centerfold strip club open till 4 two doors to the right, and the republican strip club open to 4 on the left. a crak drug bar one door down and a drug public phone just under the window. plus the awning for the fruit store downstairs with its trash bin and money machine make it a hotspot for transactions and sex all the time.i never feel threatened on the AT.

[Sickmont]

my neighborhood is grusomly crime filled each night. horrid screams for help and massive wreks by drunken drivers and cops on bullhorns yelling pull over and all maner of mayhem just outside my window since i was born here in philadelphia in 1961.i got the centerfold strip club open till 4 two doors to the right, and the republican strip club open to 4 on the left. a crak drug bar one door down and a drug public phone just under the window. plus the awning for the fruit store downstairs with its trash bin and money machine make it a hotspot for transactions and sex all the time.i never feel threatened on the AT.

Dude, you really need to get out of Philly......

[4eyedbuzzard]

Stay off the trail in May. :rolleyes: All but two of the 11 AT related murders happened during the month of May. Apparently, psychos bloom in May as well. :confused: Five of the 11 we're of thru-hikers. Also, all the murders, including the men who we're murdered with them, involved women in their 20's. Three were double homicides as I remember. Shelters and proximity to roads figured in many of these incidents. Honest, I've researched it probably as much as anyone.

The trail is no more safe or dangerous as the places it passes through. As much of that is rural, it is pretty darn safe, much more so than inner cities. Use common sense. Beware when hitching (hitch with someone else when at all possible, beware of vans, make sure car / vehicle doors are operable from the inside, etc) and when arounds roads and shelters where the probability of meeting up with criminals is at its highest.

[endubyu]

You personal protection is your choice and should be matched with your skills, not your fears.

Best advice I've read yet and it should apply to everything you do, not just your choice of personal protection (as Mathewski also pointed out). If ya don't know how to use it, it's useless to you until you do. Trekking poles, camp knives, staves (which I use) can all help to protect you with a bit of knowledge. Haven't tried it yet but wouldn't a little squirt of hand sanitizer burn eyes? Don't depend on what you don't know how to use and look at what you're already bringing, chances are you already have several options. Enjoy your hike.

[K-3]

In all truthfulness, I'm a guy, a trained police officer, and a K-9 handler and still intend to bring pepper spray. The spray however is intended for the unlikely chance encounter with a bear, aggressive dog, or the like. Jack Hanna of wild life fame successfully warded off a bear attack a few years back while on a hike with his family so it does work. I can tell you the pepper spray works on humans too but I suggest keeping it in a pocket or otherwise out of sight. You don't want to appear paranoid or entirely insecure if a well meaning hiker approaches you to ask for help and you are clutching your pepper spray expecting to do battle. As others have said, we all will be armed with knives and trekking poles make terrific spears.

[surferjeff]

I did have trouble on the trail one time, but it wasn't from some hikers, but some druggies in the woods for the weekend. I had a knife but, rightfully, chose to talk my way out of the situation. I now carry nothing, figuring the odds of it happening twice are so remote that I'm probably the safest person to hike with. A female hiker friend of mine eats with a standard metal kitchen fork, two-fold purpose: personal protection.

[Tuckahoe64]

As LordoftheWings said your choice should match your skills... I see some that keep talking about having knives, but how many of you actually know how to use one close quarters? So keep talking about trekking poles, but how many of you know how to use them as a weapon? Flailing something about does not always make it an effective weapon.

[icemanat95]

Precisely.

no device, in and of itself, will make you safer if you are not ready, willing and able to use it with intent. Get training.

Hiking Poles: The aluminum and carbon fiber poles favored by the weight conscious are useless as bashing tools. They lack the weight to cause significant or even noticeable injury or pain. The point is the only useful part of these poles and penetration with the point is limited by the shape of the tip and the basket, such that it is unlikely that a hiking pole will cause serious injury unless very precisely and forcefully targeted. Skin is a fairly durable material and without a sharp penetrating point, you are requiring the pole tip to tear its way through largely by brute force overcoming the elasticity of the skin. Not the best bet against a determined attacker.

Wooden hiking staves are better at bashing having more mass, and will cause deeper bruising and crushing injuries on the thrust also owing to the greater mass. As a weapon they are far superior to lightweight options, they are however, heavy.

Poles of whatever sort can be used in leverageing techniques which can be used to throw, pin, lock-up and even destroy the attackers joints and bones. Significant training is required however.

Knives, like guns and pepper spray, must be accessible and quickly deployed to be useful in self-defense. If you can't get it out unobtrusively within a second or two, it's probably going to be useless. Additionally, how the knife is designed dictates it's usefullness to most users. The sort of knives most hikers today tend to favor (at least in writing) have short, fairly flimsy blades designed for opening letters and paring fingernails. They would have to be very sharp and employed with great deliberation to produce truly debilitating wounds.

There are two schools of thought in knife defense/fighting; deep and broad.

In the deep school, a long blade that can penetrate deeply to damage major blood bearing organs is favored, the idea being that sudden, severe blood loss will put the attacker into hypovolemic shock and stop the attack. Adrenaline and the difficulty in getting at these structures has a limiting effect here.

The broad school favors cuts to major muscle groups and tendons which, while not so deep, can destroy the attacker's mobility, enabling escape. However, if you can't cut deeply enough and penetrate protective clothing, etc. You may do little more than piss the guy off. City ER's are full of people with nasty looking slashes to skin and subcutaneous tissues, whose mobility is ultimately unaffected and who were never in danger of dying from blood loss due to the superficial nature of the wounds.

Here's a reality. If you are in a situation that puts you in sufficient fear for your life that things get nasty, you aren't going to scare the bad guy away with a few little stinging injuries, you are going to have to seriously mess him up and put HIM in fear for His life. Its an ugly business from top to bottom. You cut someone with a knife, there's going to be a LOT of blood and your knife is going to get slippery and nasty. Blood borne disease is now an issue.

One of the rules of knife fighting is that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the ER, the loser goes to the morgue, but both fighters get cut. While this is not always true, it is usually true. Expect to get hurt in any self-defense situation.

Slippery knife handles are a serious hazard. If the knife is not designed for slippery conditions, you could, very easily, end up cutting yourself as your hand slips up the handle and onto the blade. This is bad juju since you could easily lose the ability to hold the knife when this happens. Worse juju.

Knives that incorporate physical barriers against your hand sliding up onto the blade are preferable. This includes handle shapes and blade "flippers" which become fingerguards when the blade is deployed, etc. Handle material and texture is also important. Knurled surfaces that can channel the worst of the goo and slime away from the griping skin and provide corners and points for your skin to interface with are preferable for hard use knifes. Good locking systems for folding knives are also a must. Benchmade's AXIS lock is great, so are framelocks and beefier linerlocks. But these knives tend to be fairly beefy and heavy, as well as costly. A good knife in this class can cost you north of 100 bucks with some exceptional models rising to 300.

The Becker Necker is a larger neck knife. It's a fixed blade, skeletonized design for weight reduction. You can wrap the handle with paracord for a firmer grip and have some emergency cord handy. You can also lengthen the grip (effectively) by making a lanyard of cord with a loop that will fit the pinky. The short lanyard gives the pinky something to grip, gives you a little extra retention, and through tensioning, can actually help you gain a more secure grip on the knife. You have to try it and feel it to really understand. The Becker Necker is also a damned good utility knife for general camp chores too.

[Sickmont]

Flailing something about does not always make it an effective weapon.

Poking someone's eye out tends to be pretty effective in deterring any further aggression against you.

[rickb]

I'm planning my nobo thru hike in 2 weeks.I am starting solo and was thinking about bringing some sort of protection in the form of mace or pepper spray.Not to harm animals but moreso for creepy people who will not take no for an answer.

from looking online there are 100's of manufactures and brands.Was wondering what others used and found to be the most effective.:-?

Looks like you are a fellow Bay Stater.

A few years ago they changed the laws in our enlightened Commonwealth, such that you now need an FID card to buy and carry pepper spray.

Its a pain in the neck, but if you want something in your pocket when hitch hiking or retreating from a sketchy encounter best to plan ahead and drop by your local police department now. They will help you out. A local gun or police supply store will have the OC with the highest concentration and options that are small enough so that you will be able to keep them at hand where they will do the most good.

Sarcastic note to out of staters without an FID-- should you have the opportunity to spray a dog in MA after it has taken a bite out of your child, best to just move along and not insist that a police report be filed one the incident. L

[Lilred]

Everyone here tells me to bring a gun! I just laugh it off and I am sure some find it laughable to bring pepper spray. But isn't it sort of the same as wearing cotton? It may rain, it may not rain...

oh no, it will most definately rain, no maybe about it. Cotton kills...

[Wise Old Owl]

I'd be a lot more afraid of Boston than the backcountry.

Uhh guess Boston is very much like Camden NJ.... Lack of understanding Southern Hospitality... Do you hear banjo's?:D

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting thread. And a great post by Iceman regarding self-defense.

As others have pointed out, if you leave Springer on a thru-hike armed with pepper spray or mace, sooner or later you'll be breaking the law.

The vast majority of hikers neither carry such items nor feel the need for them.

[mweinstone]

the weakest mind can respond to violence with more weapons than can be carryed by the strongest body. the toung is a two edged sword. just look at what hannible lectre did to the guy in the other cell.

[sbhikes]

I feel sorry for all the men in the world who haven't learned the art of evasion. Sometimes I'm grateful for being born a woman. Well-honed skills from years of practice, let me tell you.

By the way, trekking poles are helpful for dogs because if you cross them in front of your body, the dog treats them like a fence and doesn't come up to you. You don't have to use them weaponlike for dogs.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Uhh guess Boston is very much like Camden NJ.... Lack of understanding Southern Hospitality... Do you hear banjo's?:D

Camdem already scares folks from South Philly. And the latest news is that they are laying off almost half the police force due to the economy. :eek:

[4eyedbuzzard]

I feel sorry for all the men in the world who haven't learned the art of evasion. Sometimes I'm grateful for being born a woman. Well-honed skills from years of practice, let me tell you.

By the way, trekking poles are helpful for dogs because if you cross them in front of your body, the dog treats them like a fence and doesn't come up to you. You don't have to use them weaponlike for dogs.

+1
Running fast is generally the most important survival skill we possess.

[mweinstone]

i miss being armed to the teeth. sold everything for pasta related exspenditures.
carry permits good five more years.just renewed it.
next gun ill see will be a caulk gun, if im lucky.
had a little change of heart. i belive if i had the means, the weapon of choice i would want would be a lazer pointer. lazer pointers aint no joke. no joke at all. wanna know whats a joke? rabbits. rabbits are a frikkin joke.

[DapperD]

lazer pointers aint no joke. no joke at all. wanna know whats a joke? rabbits. rabbits are a frikkin joke.Not all rabbits:http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail176.jpg

[Don H]

Trekking pole for stabbing (http://www.luxurylite.com/ssindex.html)

Try getting that through airport security!

[leaftye]

By the way, trekking poles are helpful for dogs because if you cross them in front of your body, the dog treats them like a fence and doesn't come up to you. You don't have to use them weaponlike for dogs.

My trekking poles are camouflaged.

[Iceaxe]

No way Man.. I got my thru hiker switchblade!
If the knife don't scare 'em away my dirty toothbrush will! :eek:

[K-3]

+1
Running fast is generally the most important survival skill we possess.

As a trained canine officer, I can assure you that "running fast" from a dog is probably the absolute worst decision you can make. The moment you take off, you become prey. Its instinct for them to see you as nothing else in that moment. The good-natured dogs will jump up and down once they catch up to you and think you are playing. The not-so-good-natured dogs may very likely attempt to attack you. If you come upon a loose dog and are unsure of its temperment...

1. do not act suspicious or afraid - they will sense it and it and become suspicious and fearful of you

2. avoid eye contact

3. keep walking and do your best to ignore it; use your peripheral vision to keep tabs on the dog. Depending on the dog, yelling at it and using the treking pole to keep it at a distance may work but it may also antagonize the animal. Dogs are very much like people and no two are alike

4. if it becomes defensive i.e. growling/raised hackles/etc., continue to avoid eye contact and return from the direction you came but do not turn your back on it

5. if a dog does bites you and won't let go, DO NOT attempt to pull the animal off or flail as this will only tear your flesh and make you continue to appear to be prey. If a weapon is not handy, strikes to the nose/eyes are effective as well as choking the dog out. It works the same as with humans, if you choke off their oxygen they will pass out at which point quickly walk (DO NOT run) away from the dog. The easiest and safefest manner is to grab their choke chain if they have one and lift the dog off the ground by it (you'd be surprised the strength you will have from the adrenalin rush and can do this despite the dogs size). If there is no choke chain, use a free hand to grab the dogs windpipe which is easily located at the front of their throat and beneath the jaw and squeeze. The dog will release its grip on you to try and bite your hand/arm. I would avoid letting go until the dog passes out as it may attempt to reengage and continue its attack though other dogs will throw in the towel and go away. You have to read the situation and do whats best for you.

[LovelyDay]

FYI to MountainGoat: Before you purchase your bear spray ~ be aware that in Massachusetts the use of bear spray is controlled and you will hafta be licensed by your local police dept & state police - similar to having a costly pistol permit.

[LovelyDay]

FYI to MountainGoat: Before you purchase your bear spray ~ be aware that in Massachusetts the use of bear spray is controlled and you will hafta be licensed by your local police dept & state police - similar to having a costly pistol permit.

[mweinstone]

k-3 i have a question im embarassed to ask cops i know well cause i dont want them to know how weird i am. but your a hiker so i wanna ask it.
i got that repore with all living things thing kinda like those animal handlers on tv sometimes do.(not mutual of omaha.lol) you know, all dogs that approch me frightened and groweling end up putty in my hands in minutes thing? well,..my theory is that it may be possible for someone of exstreem skill and repore with animals, especialy dogs, can command even a police dog over the commands of its owner if the owner has less of a repore in general. that all the familarness in the world dosnt overide a dogs basic instinct to reconize the alpha leader in any group, and that in exstreem conditions, will side with them . do you think so? in any event, we both understand how dogs react and what their capable of. i was always taught that if attacked, you should make a fist and push it down their throat to back them off or if bitten on the arm try to do the same by pushing rather than pulling to choke the dog into releaseing. the most powerful animals, including man, afe feared in order of their lack of fear. a man has the ability to be fearless, a k9 , only somewhat to a point.

[K-3]

A K-9 officer's report with their working dog serves as the foundation of their relationship. If the report between the two is poor, they will have no success as a team. The dog works with, and in the civilian world, lives with their handler - they are together more or less 24/7. It doesn't matter how alpha the bad guy may be, when the handler releases their dog on a bad guy, the report built over a 24/7 relationship with the handler will always win out over the 2-5 seconds the bad guy will have to try and influence the dog. That is not to say a police dog cannot be defeated by the bad guy because its definitely possible but you aren't going to be able to shift the dog's allegiance from handler to bad guy in the few moments they are all interacting together.

Working dogs and very different from a pet or stray in terms of the time spent training them. Training = attention, something the stray or unattended family pet may get from a stranger who will become "putty in your hands". Working dogs get far more attention and hence a strangers kindness and attention won't hold sway over the attention they receive from their handler.

I've never heard of the technique of ramming a fist down a dogs throat to get them to back off. I've seen some VERY serious dog bite injuries and for me, losing my fingers let alone a hand isn't worth it so I would highly recommend against sticking either into an attacking dogs mouth.

[the judge]

in response to carrying weapons on the trail....yall worry me. I'm more concerned with everyone who is listening to how you should bring guns and tazers etc on the trail because of how unsafe it is. don't get me wrong, I own guns, and I support the right to bear arms. But, I do fear guns in the hands of a nervous or untrained individual.
my recommendations for weapons to carry: fire extinguisher, heavy rock, anvil, boat anchor, a canoe, a gaggle of geese, and chewbacca. it's best if you carry all of these or have chewy carry them for you.

[Sickmont]

my recommendations for weapons to carry: fire extinguisher, heavy rock, anvil, boat anchor, a canoe, a gaggle of geese, and chewbacca. it's best if you carry all of these or have chewy carry them for you.

Chewbacca.......BEST ANSWER YET!

[endubyu]

Seems as though in Mass it's illegal to defend yourself at all

[endubyu]

Also if a dog bites your arm rather than pull your arm out ram it back into the dogs mouth. It won't be able to clamp down as well, it's back teeth are as destructive, and it will hurt the dog and get it to loosen enough to get your arm out ..maybe.

[weary]

oh no, it will most definately rain, no maybe about it. Cotton kills...
Though somehow I'm still alive. The docs gave me a clean bill of health just yesterday.

[weary]

Try getting that through airport security!
I don't fly much, but my hiking staff has always gone through airport security without question. I just pretend I'm old. Something that somehow gets easier with each passing year.

[TJ aka Teej]

A good method for "protecting yourself from people" is to go hiking.

[weary]

I find shaking my hiking staff at angry dogs tends to scare them away. I suspect the reason may be that owners of vicious dogs tend not to be very sophisticated and train them by beating the dogs with sticks, making the dogs adverse to sticks.

[icemanat95]

in response to carrying weapons on the trail....yall worry me. I'm more concerned with everyone who is listening to how you should bring guns and tazers etc on the trail because of how unsafe it is. don't get me wrong, I own guns, and I support the right to bear arms. But, I do fear guns in the hands of a nervous or untrained individual.
my recommendations for weapons to carry: fire extinguisher, heavy rock, anvil, boat anchor, a canoe, a gaggle of geese, and chewbacca. it's best if you carry all of these or have chewy carry them for you.


sNICKER.....But The Judge is right, an unfamiliar weapon is dangerous to the person carrying it and anyone around them. If you aren't familiar and comfortable with a particular weapon, don't bother bringing it anywhere. Which is why myself and others recommend that you get training if you are seriously concerned about self-defense.

Putting a hiking pole in someone's eye is not easy. Under combat stress, your fine motor control pretty much goes out the window. In the absence of extensive training under realistic conditions, you aren't going to be able to target the eyes with the tip of that 4 foot long lightweight pole. You may be lucky to hit the head. Forget about most of our basic reluctance to cause injury to another human being.

Jack Tarlin is also dead on right: 99.5 percent of hikers who hit the trail never encounter anything like a dangerous situation that would require violent reaction.

This is a relatively common subject here and generates a lot of traffic. It's not because there is any great necessity for self-defense on the trail, but because folks are nervous about what they don't know, and folks back home are nervous about the safety of their loved ones. Bottom line however, is that the AT is about as safe a place to be as you can imagine. The most dangerous thing you are likely to encounter is poison ivy, stinging nettles, yellowjackets and the occasional rattlesnake or copperhead, who will generally let you know they don't want any trouble.

Some of us kind of enjoy discussing the subject and take it very seriously. We, for professional reasons or because we are involved in the martial arts or something similar, study the subject and train in it. But most of us are pretty level-headed, mild, mannered and easy to get along with. Nothing to be scared or weirded out about.

[The Weasel]

As Jack Tarlin and a few others have mentioned, pepper spray, mace and other such devices are prohibited in a few places and highly regulated in others. Massachusetts is not the only such place.

Most states also have laws regulating the size and types of knives which can lawfully be carried; Connecticut, for instance, prohibits carrying any knife with a blade longer than 4.5 inches, about the size of a modest sheath knife.

Before buying any "defensive" device, it is a good idea to check local laws or contact a local law enforcement agency. Keep in mind that those laws may be different from one municipality to another, even in rural areas like the AT.

TW

[sbhikes]

Running away can actually work. You'll be in such fantastic shape that any yahoo out there will be hopeless to keep up with you. Just slip into the trees and climb a steep hill. Anybody creepy enough to threaten you isn't going to be disciplined enough to be in the kind of shape you'll be in.

I had a personal "rule" that I tried not to sleep within 10 miles of a major road. Outside that 10 mile radius, the only other people I ever saw on the trail were other hikers. And the radius was probably closer to 3 miles. Even less--more like 1/2 a mile--if they weren't carrying a backpack.

[DapperD]

I'm planning my nobo thru hike in 2 weeks.I am starting solo and was thinking about bringing some sort of protection in the form of mace or pepper spray.Not to harm animals but moreso for creepy people who will not take no for an answer.

from looking online there are 100's of manufactures and brands.Was wondering what others used and found to be the most effective.:-?As long as it is legal where you will be in possession of it, I think pepper spray is a good thing to have. It can be used against a human attacker, but most likely would be good to use against a dangerous and possibly rabid animal that one might have the unfortunate opportunity of crossing paths with out there. I know using it against dogs can work, but pepper spray can hurt a dog's eyes. Special dog type repellent sprays are on the market that supposedly do not permanately injure a dogs eyes and can still be effective. I guess if one is in a situation with a violent, aggressive dog then one would use and do what one has to in order to escape the situation unharmed, but there are different products available. A strong hiking staff can be wielded and used effectively against aggressive animals or psychotic dangerous attacking individuals. I think as other's have said though, most of the time the AT is going to be a safe place to be. Hooking up with other thru-hikers who are out there and forming a small group of hikers who are willing to stick together and look out for one another in my opinion is the best way to remain safe. Most people with ill intent are not going to mess with a group of highely conditioned thru-hikers:D. Of course this is no guarantee of safety, however it does help. Those who would rather hike solo and do not want to hook up with others and/or camp around other's in my opinion need to be somewhat more concerned due to the fact that they are alone and possibly more vulnerable. I think using ones wits and as other's have said when camping solo to avoid camping within close proximity to roads and road crossings, heavily used public campgrounds and parks, and shelter's near roads where people tend to congregate to party, etc...will go a long way toward keeping oneself safe.

[Wise Old Owl]

I try very hard to give new folk a pass on early posts, There are a lot of animal lovers here. There are easier ways to subdue a dog. Even the "dog whisperer" has made in roads with the mail delivery people.. They still use mace as a last resort.

I have rescued two "horrible dogs" from the pound and worked them both with drills and learning and "undid" the previous master's damage.

When you write something you open yourself to unbelievable criticism. Here in the blog world everything you type will be held by all to a higher plane. You are not having a "conversation" You are offering advice about destroying an animal by ramming an arm down it's mouth.

I have seen several offer this advice before, try to give it more thought, the original post & thread was about scary people - not their dogs.

[mweinstone]

A K-9 officer's report with their working dog serves as the foundation of their relationship. If the report between the two is poor, they will have no success as a team. The dog works with, and in the civilian world, lives with their handler - they are together more or less 24/7. It doesn't matter how alpha the bad guy may be, when the handler releases their dog on a bad guy, the report built over a 24/7 relationship with the handler will always win out over the 2-5 seconds the bad guy will have to try and influence the dog. That is not to say a police dog cannot be defeated by the bad guy because its definitely possible but you aren't going to be able to shift the dog's allegiance from handler to bad guy in the few moments they are all interacting together.

Working dogs and very different from a pet or stray in terms of the time spent training them. Training = attention, something the stray or unattended family pet may get from a stranger who will become "putty in your hands". Working dogs get far more attention and hence a strangers kindness and attention won't hold sway over the attention they receive from their handler.

I've never heard of the technique of ramming a fist down a dogs throat to get them to back off. I've seen some VERY serious dog bite injuries and for me, losing my fingers let alone a hand isn't worth it so I would highly recommend against sticking either into an attacking dogs mouth.

i dont recoment sticking fists in dogs mouths , comdone it or ever plan to use it for any reason. jjust something i heard that sounded plausable im asking about. and im not talking about the bad guy takeing the dogs alegence from the cop at the moment of a crime, im talking about wheather the most trained dogs in the world, copdogs, could be ordered to stop or go in a situation where it has been comanded to atack an inocent by an owner who is the bad guy but has time in with the dog but has just sicked his dog on an innocent. thats what i had in mind whenever i think of this. that if a bad cop launched a good dog on me for bad reasons i could comunicate that to the dog quicker than it could attack. thats my theory. that with no fear and no guilt a calm person with skills beyond or equal to police trainning of dogs, could.

[Wise Old Owl]

Thank You Matty...

[mweinstone]

anyway, back to the topic.
no one needs a weapon on the APPALACHIAN TRAIL for these reasons:

the trail corredor is policed by law enforcement agencys and resque personell of all manner ready and able to aid hikers in emergencys of all kinds

communications on the trail are thru cell phones, sat phones, internet, hostels boards, trail regesters and word of mouth.

[mweinstone]

carrying weapons in a sociaty is like hanging food from bears. it dosnt work unless everybody does it. ive never carryed a weapon in the mountains of pa. but i could have at any time with my carry permit. its not cool. i cant mix hiking with the concerns of living at 16th and snyder and the asociated defensive requirments of that neighborhood. my trail is like my bathroom, i dont go in there all weaponized. lol.

[endubyu]

Thanks for the thoughts WOO, you won't hurt my feelings I promise. Yep the OP was about people but there were other comments specific to dogs. My advice is humane to dogs as it does no permanent damage only hurting an ATTACKING dog enough to release - and I STICK BY IT! When it's ripping its teeth into my arm I'm more concerned with my own safety, my own arm than I am an aggressive dogs welfare. Perhaps the animal is rabid or merely poorly trained - doesn't matter at that point, it's hurting me and I'm going to defend myself.

I welcome your criticism (and everyone elses) and appreciate your opinion. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by ramming my arm back into its mouth. If a dog has your arm, normally it's your forearm as you stuck it up that way in defense, longways where your arm is perpendicular to the dog. Look at your dogs teeth you'll notice they're fanged/hooked and designed to keep things in which is why you shouldn't yank your arm out, it will just bury their fang deeper and cause more damage. By pushing your arm the other direction, into their mouth it helps alleviate the pressure and you're going the direction they are pulling (yes they're also shaking their head in a ripping motion). Think also of the pivot point of their mouth. If you put your arm closer to the hinge they can't close their mouth on your arm. They release. Simple physics really working with the design of a dogs mouth.

I've had dogs literally all of my life and have one laying at my feet now. These aren't just my thoughts, they are my experience.

[Papa D]

You don't need any weapons - pepper spray included - i've hiked 5,000 miles plus and run into my share of sketchy people, grizzly bears (yes) , black bears, rattlers, rednecks, scorpions, ticks, etc., etc. - my wit, brain, good senses, and fast feet have always worked just fine - for 25 years !!!!!! - no weapons !! - really, its ok.

[K-3]

i dont recoment sticking fists in dogs mouths , comdone it or ever plan to use it for any reason. jjust something i heard that sounded plausable im asking about. and im not talking about the bad guy takeing the dogs alegence from the cop at the moment of a crime, im talking about wheather the most trained dogs in the world, copdogs, could be ordered to stop or go in a situation where it has been comanded to atack an inocent by an owner who is the bad guy but has time in with the dog but has just sicked his dog on an innocent. thats what i had in mind whenever i think of this. that if a bad cop launched a good dog on me for bad reasons i could comunicate that to the dog quicker than it could attack. thats my theory. that with no fear and no guilt a calm person with skills beyond or equal to police trainning of dogs, could.

Ok - I think I follow but just in case I missed your question, I'll give two answers...

1 - yes, bad guy can and do use their dogs to attack innocent/good people and it works exactly like the good guys using their dog. An innocent/good person is not going to convince the bag guys dog not to attack him

and

2 - yes, if a good guy such as a cop sends his dog to attack a guy who turns out to be a good guy or otherwise gives up, the cop can call off the attack. Being able to call off your dog (even as it is in mid-air and about to bite) is a critical task in K-9 units nationwide. If you cannot call off your dog, you will not get certified. As an example, a couple years ago, a bag guy was running away from the police. He had a child as a hostage but he held her in front of him and the police, who could only see his back, were unaware. A K-9 officer released his dog for a bite. The bad guy turned around and held out the child for the dog to bite. The officer called off the dog prior to it reaching the child and suspect.

Bonus Info: among other things, we also train our dogs to escort the suspect wherever we want such as back to the officer or over to the patrol car. The suspect is warned that if they run, the dog will automatically attack. Nifty stuff :)

[Wise Old Owl]

endubyu (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=30101) Why didn't you post that thought first instead?

Welcome to wb

[endubyu]

I knew what I meant, why didn't you :)

I'll try to learn and be more descriptive. thx

[Wise Old Owl]

Ho Ho......hooo


I think if you look -the mods erased it.

[Tuckahoe64]

anyway, back to the topic.
no one needs a weapon on the APPALACHIAN TRAIL for these reasons:

the trail corredor is policed by law enforcement agencys and resque personell of all manner ready and able to aid hikers in emergencys of all kinds

communications on the trail are thru cell phones, sat phones, internet, hostels boards, trail regesters and word of mouth.

And that is where you are flat out wrong... as much as you or others may like to believe that LE is there to rescue or some how protect you, they are not. In the end they really only there to clean the mess.

Only you are responsible for your own protection where ever you are. You also have every right to decline to carry the tools necessary to protect yourself. But you are out of line to suggest that anyone else does not have a need to carry the tools to protect themselves.

[mweinstone]

i so am getting a copdog dammit. a sled team of artic copdogs. my first dog i remember was sam. samantha. a dalmation. and a retired fire dog belonged to the cheif. his prob was she ran after firetrucks. did that for us too. then ran to the cheifs house. then dad had to send one of us over when she diddnt come home. then the old crusty cheif would swear he was gonna not give her back and scare us. finaly when the kids got older and sam was alone, she chewed up the leather couch and dad gave her away. sam would have been a crappy trail dog and would have chased wildlife uncontrolably. if a woman feels more comfortable with a dog hiking, then shes useing the dog as a weapon in a remote sence. no ofence ment. but its cool to do i guess cause dogs love people and people love dogs no matter if they are working or if only one is.if any protection was acceptable for a lone hiker who feels the need, it is a dog.
but a human bodygaurd would piss me off.lol.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Mountain Goat. I'm new here and it would seem the self defense/weaponry category is nearly as controversial and as widely opinionated as dogs on the trail and the dreaded "leash" word.

I myself find it hard to be impartial. I'm very passionate about the subject, the rights we do have and those that have been legislated away from us.

With that being said, I would like to offer a little more of my feelings more so than recommendations to include a few tales on myself for your own judgment and perhaps the entertainment of the other members of this site.

As I've stated in other posts I'm 6'2'' and 375 lbs. A firefighter, high school football player and I have fears and concerns just like everyone else in the world. My fears might be different? Like rapidly disintegrating toilet paper, people with small hands and cockroaches(shiver). I fear for my safety on the trail against those two legged and four. I fear things that I cannot control.
One of my biggest fears is being around people that are armed and uneducated. When I say uneducated, I don't mean one that doesn't have the ability to understand Cantonese or recite PI to 40 decimal places. I mean someone that doesn't understand or respect the safety, usage, legality, or lethality of the weapon/s they chose to carry. To be around someone that has the ability to seriously injure or kill me out of ignorance scares me more than showing up late to the krispy kreme donut shop late, after church.
I don't care what weapon someone using, whether it's a 4 ton Cadillac or a blow-dart gun from the Amazon. If that person doesn't follow those concepts, they scare me. They are obviously a danger to themselves as well.
I am a Concealed weapons Permit Holder in Florida. The great state has even gone so far as to make agreements with other states to see that reciprocity is extended to me in those states as well. The downside, is out of the 14 states that I will hike through, 6 of them will not allow me such privileges. Of the 8 that will allow me, I have to be concerned with their own local and state laws, not to mention the National Parks. So my options are very limited. Seeming silly given the 2nd amendment, but I digress.
Now, I have been mugged at knife-point while I was armed. In Florida, I was well within my rights to use deadly force against my attacker. I could tell this person wasn't rational and I was talking to drugs, not a human. I chose a different route. I always carry a fake wallet with me. The fake has junk mail credit cards, business cards of annoying people, five dollars and the telephone number of my local police dept. I told the guy that I had just got paid and I was really afraid of knives. His interest was then focused on the wallet. I gave him the fake and he ran off with it. At that range I had decided it wasn't worth risking my life or my fiances when I had other options.
I have trained with knives, guns other sorts of mischief. To this day what I think I should have done was not allow myself to get into that situation. It was a dark alley in Tampa and I was being cocky because I was with my girl and I was carrying. Since then I've tried my best to be more aware of my surroundings and try not to put myself into those situations. Your head can be a great weapon if you use it.


Sooo, as to avoid any other intelligent conversation, I'll add a final stupid thing I've done. I've been afforded many friendships with L.E.O.'s over the years to include K-9 units. Now I kept taunting one of our guys calling his dog a sissy and several other lovely names. He made a bet with me that if put on the training cuff and I let the dog attack it, he would give me 50 bucks. I cheerfully accepted. I lost 50 bucks and pulled grass out of my teeth while being laughed at by at least 10 of my buddies. sometimes it not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

[LordoftheWings]

The bet was to remain standing BTW.

[Appalachian Tater]

If you feel like you need a weapon to protect yourself hiking the A.T. do yourself a favor and take a vacation some place where you'll feel safe and won't feel the need to have weapons to defend yourself. What an awful way to spend your free time, worried about being attacked by a psycho.

[valiweva]

hiking together in groups of equal abilities and interests is a great idea.I think guns are only legal in the state you are liscensed to carry in,pepper spray will mess you up if you are spraying into the wind,and wasp/bee spray is very accurate for 15 to 20 feet.Peace of mind must be be your ultimate goal.

[LordoftheWings]

I want to hike with you Tater. I like hugs.

[SunnyWalker]

Mtn Goat: You can pick up Pepper Spray at Gander Mtn and other outdoor stores. They usually have a pretty good selection. I would advise you to get pepper spray that is used for protection against other humans. In other words don't get bear spray intending to use it on humans. In court it might come back to haunt you. Despite what you'll hear, pepper spray is VERY effective. It won't add much weight, so no worry there. I would recommend: Sabre Red. It comes in 70 gram cyl spray can. About a little over an inch in diameter and about 5 inches long. Good for hand use. Be sure to keep it always out of reach of children. The can has a safety feature which is real nice to prevent accidental push of the button. Take a look at it and you'll see immediately how it is set up. But, like others I don't think you'll need it on the trail. BUT . . . you never know and thats the hard part.

[Appalachian Tater]

I want to hike with you Tater. I like hugs.

I'm the psycho, that's why I'm not worried about psychos. ;)

[weary]

Just a thought. A recent Maine case suggests that the right to defend oneself may not be as black and white as some on White Blaze seem to think.

A man this winter was sentenced to life in prison for murdering two brothers. I believe from the newspaper accounts, that one of the brothers had been convicted a few months earlier for assaulting the guy who has now been convicted of the murders.

On the night of the killings, the two brothers were walking down the street, saw the killer on his porch. They walked onto the porch and one of the brothers "shoved" the killer and was shot. The other victim went to his brother's aid and was also shot to death.

The killer claimed self defense. Neither the jury nor the judge saw it that way.

One certainly has the right of self defense. But not with a weapon more powerful than is needed for that defense. At least in Maine, pending the results of appeals.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Tater-Awesome :)

@ Weary- I know Florida Law very well. It wouldn't include the above said story, not for a minute.

If it was up to all of the people on this thread there would never be a need for anything but shoes and a good time. The realist in me knows that criminals are just that, criminals. Laws only guide the lawful the same way that locks on doors keep honest people honest.

[LordoftheWings]

Chaplains suggestion is a sound choice.

[K-3]

"sometimes it not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog."

I included a couple pics of my last working dog, Katja. She's a 55 lb female German shepherd and though she is small, she could be absolutely ferocious when called upon. She saved my butt on a couple ocasions

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v842/64/41/1210921328/n1210921328_30235478_6455.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v842/64/41/1210921328/n1210921328_30235450_4712.jpg

[Tuckahoe64]

Just a thought. A recent Maine case suggests that the right to defend oneself may not be as black and white as some on White Blaze seem to think.

A man this winter was sentenced to life in prison for murdering two brothers. I believe from the newspaper accounts, that one of the brothers had been convicted a few months earlier for assaulting the guy who has now been convicted of the murders.

On the night of the killings, the two brothers were walking down the street, saw the killer on his porch. They walked onto the porch and one of the brothers "shoved" the killer and was shot. The other victim went to his brother's aid and was also shot to death.

The killer claimed self defense. Neither the jury nor the judge saw it that way.

One certainly has the right of self defense. But not with a weapon more powerful than is needed for that defense. At least in Maine, pending the results of appeals.

Without the actual facts of this case, the post is rather meaningless. Self defense is pretty well established in statutory and case law.

Without those facts for example we can not determine whether the shooter insigated the incident by taunting the two brothers. In which case the shooting of the brothers would have not been self defense.

We do not know whether the shooting was infact an act of self defense, but that the judge failed to give proper instructions to the jury.

The great majority of self defense shootings really never make it beyond a paragraph on page 6 or 7. But one that may be of interest is the case of Harold Fish out of AZ. Out for a walk on a trail, he shoots an attacker's dogs and the attacker. He was initially convicted, but that conviction was overturned on appeal.

K-3, thank you Sir, for your service!

[LordoftheWings]

@ Kilo---awesome dog bro. And thanks for your service, seriously. I've had a citizens call me a hero at fire scenes and I was never comfortable with it. What I consider to be a hero is the men and women of our armed forces.

My buddies dog was named Thor. Many times I would go to scenes and Thor would be rockin' the cruiser back and forth as we hauled his latest "victim" into the ambulance. That dog chewed people like hamburger, it was great. His partner was even more crazy. I even had to patch up a few K-9 deputies themselves because of Thor. He want to get the perp. so bad, he would bite the deputy in the @ss.
The night that the dog took me down, I was so full of myself. I said, there's no way a 60 lb dog can take me to the ground if I'm wearing the training arm. I was sadly mistaken. He hit me like a linebacker and I thought my arm would pop in two from the down force of his bite. I was yelling in german at the dog....that didn't work either, much to the amusement of everyone.

[mweinstone]

katja has great eyes. i want that dog! now! you will deliver me that dog!

[Delta-Dawn]

I included a couple pics of my last working dog, Katja. She's a 55 lb female German shepherd and though she is small, she could be absolutely ferocious when called upon. She saved my butt on a couple ocasions

Gorgeous dog and great pics!! I have a couple of Sib. Huskies now but am looking at getting a female German Shepherd some day to train and use as another member to our SAR team. From what I've read and talked to others about regarding how protective they are; the males are protective of their property/territory while the females are protective of their person. Obviously if she has saved your arse a time or two, you would agree with that, right?

Oh, forgot to add: Thanks for your service K-3. You rock! :D

[Thatguy]

I don't believe we should weaponize space.

I also don't believe we should weaponize the AT.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!:eek:

[NCarolinaHiker]

Kilo, thanks for your service. Beautiful dog you have there with Katja.

[K-3]

Thank you for the "thank yous" everyone. Yeah, Katja is definitely a special dog. The Navy relocated her to Norfolk after they closed the kennel at my last duty station in Brunswick, ME. I'm in touch with her handler though and keep tabs on her. She's almost 6 now and gearing up for her 3rd deployment to Afghan. I'm planning to adopt her once Uncle Sam sees fit to retire the pup in a few years.

I would entirely agree with you Delta that while the males are protective of property/territory, the females are more protective of people. Get 1 of each and you're all set at home.

[weary]

I don't believe we should weaponize space.

I also don't believe we should weaponize the AT.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!:eek:
I'll go along with both prohibitions.
1. Neither are likely to work.
2. Neither will do anything other than increase problems.

[hikerboy57]

Personally, I see no reason to carry a weapon on the trail, but I'm curious as to how accessible this weapon would be should the need suddenly arise.An unloaded pistol in the pack doesnt seem very useful to me, and unless you're carrying bear spray in a holster or its easily accessible.Some of the most dangerous bear encounters happen when you surprise one. So- How quickly can you have your weapon ready to use?AND, will you be ready to use it?

[LordoftheWings]

@ ThatGuy and Weary---I love dreamers. I think every rational person on the planet would probably agree that the human race would be better off without weapons of any kind. It would be a great social experiment. I would love to not ever have to worry about my own or loved ones safety.
I ask you this. Since most of the states make it illegal for a law abiding citizen like me to carry firearms on the AT, my plan is to carry a knife and a small hatchet. Both of which could be considered weapons. Are you both really saying you think all users of the trail should not have knives, pepper spray, sporks, sharpened sticks(for marshmallows) or other objects that could be considered weapons?

[Camping Dave]

Are you both really saying you think all users of the trail should not have knives ... ?

Obviously not. What a stupid question. They just don't get all sweaty in the palms when they read all this tough guy talk bout guns and knives and attack dogs and hatchets and hot sweaty manly feats of daring-do.

[Tenderheart]

Thanks for everyones advice.I suppose i might lessen the load going without it.People always instill fear and make you feel as though you need body armour to leave the house.I will skip it and just use common sense and the community of hikers as support.Thanks again.


A wise decision.

litefoot 2000

[endubyu]

Si vis pacem, para bellum

[Thatguy]

@ ThatGuy and Weary---I love dreamers. I think every rational person on the planet would probably agree that the human race would be better off without weapons of any kind. It would be a great social experiment. I would love to not ever have to worry about my own or loved ones safety.
I ask you this. Since most of the states make it illegal for a law abiding citizen like me to carry firearms on the AT, my plan is to carry a knife and a small hatchet. Both of which could be considered weapons. Are you both really saying you think all users of the trail should not have knives, pepper spray, sporks, sharpened sticks(for marshmallows) or other objects that could be considered weapons.

Lord of the Wings,

I've followed your posts and I respect what you do for a living. Anybody involved with EMS had my admiration. Good luck with the hike. :)

With respect to weapons. I can't speak for everyone but I like hiking and getting away from the worries of society. I've seen parnoid and insecure people loaded down with weapons on trails. I've seen everything from stun guns, 357 magnums to machetes. Why? I don't know. When I talk to such people they tell me they're ready for bears, robbers, other hikers etc. My question is always this: If the trail holds such danger that you feel the need to arm yourself to the teeth...what are you doing on the trail? Why deal with the anxiety? I'll tell you what I tell everyone. Relax! The trail is a place to have fun and meet great people, not a place to be constantly on the ready to defend yourself. Constantly worrying about being attacked could take away from enjoying the experience. I say take all the weapons you want but by the end of the hike you may feel you could've done without the pack weight.

One question...why do you want to take a hatchet?




.

[Sickmont]

One question...why do you want to take a hatchet?


Havent you ever seen "Last of the Mohicans" with Daniel Day-Lewis?

[endubyu]

I'm curious. Many have written on this thread and others that when/if they were to come across someone on the trail, it makes/would make them nervous - why?

[endubyu]

I'm curious. Many have written on this thread and others that when/if they were to come across someone on the trail *carrying a pistol*, it makes/would make them nervous - why?

[form]

er excuse me!take mace to a gun fight?good luck with that.every one ashs me if i'm gonna pack a gun,i tell them it would weigh too much then they ask if im gonna take a knife,i say yes my swiss army knife.then they say i'm crazy,i say your right,and i'm happy too.

[weary]

@ ThatGuy and Weary---I love dreamers. I think every rational person on the planet would probably agree that the human race would be better off without weapons of any kind. It would be a great social experiment. I would love to not ever have to worry about my own or loved ones safety.
I ask you this. Since most of the states make it illegal for a law abiding citizen like me to carry firearms on the AT, my plan is to carry a knife and a small hatchet. Both of which could be considered weapons. Are you both really saying you think all users of the trail should not have knives, pepper spray, sporks, sharpened sticks(for marshmallows) or other objects that could be considered weapons?
I for one have never said any such thing. Carry whatever you want. But having spent a long lifetime walking trails, I've yet to experience a situation where it struck me that a weapon might be useful. So I don't personally carry the extra weight.

Sure, like you, I can imagine scenarios where a weapon might be useful. But such has never happened to me in real life. Nor, for that matter, have I read of a situation on the trail, where it seems likely a weapon might have helped.

I assume anyone seeking to do me harm won't announce his intentions in advance, but rather will just whack me when I'm not looking, leaving my weapon strapped harmlessly to my side, or in my pack.

I know some folks out there think it likely that any assailant will he helpful in giving me enough time to attack him or her first. But that seems rather far fetched to me. Whatever. Carry if you makes it feel better. Just don't expect it to do much good.

And if you carry try not to let me know, I most fear more than normally irrational folks on the trails.

[vamelungeon]

You can't always tell if someone is dangerous by your "gut" or if he's "creepy." If you could the world would be a much safer place. Randall Smith was the man who murdered two AT hikers here in Virginia. He went to prison and was released. A couple of years ago he was in the same general area and encountered two trout fishermen who were camped next to a stream. He ate with them and talked for a while, then said something about leaving. With no warning and no feeling from the two other men about what was getting ready to happen he pulled out a .22 handgun and opened fire. They lived, he was captured after wrecking and died soon after in jail. Neither of his more recent victims had any idea what he was going to do. Dangerous people are dangerous to a large extent because they blend in and don't give off any "vibes" about what they are up to. I'm not advocating anything, just pointing out that gut instinct isn't very effective protection against truly dangerous people.

[weary]

You can't always tell if someone is dangerous by your "gut" or if he's "creepy." If you could the world would be a much safer place. Randall Smith was the man who murdered two AT hikers here in Virginia. He went to prison and was released. A couple of years ago he was in the same general area and encountered two trout fishermen who were camped next to a stream. He ate with them and talked for a while, then said something about leaving. With no warning and no feeling from the two other men about what was getting ready to happen he pulled out a .22 handgun and opened fire. They lived, he was captured after wrecking and died soon after in jail. Neither of his more recent victims had any idea what he was going to do. Dangerous people are dangerous to a large extent because they blend in and don't give off any "vibes" about what they are up to. I'm not advocating anything, just pointing out that gut instinct isn't very effective protection against truly dangerous people.
And, as I tried to suggest in a report on a recent Maine court case, acting on your gut could result in lifetime imprisonment.

[Snospotter]

CURRAHEE! sorry, I mean Semper Fi! what a fine dog, post your thru hike date ,bring that wardog and we Will follow you like the pied-piper,,take care & see you on the trail!!!!

[LordoftheWings]

@ MountainGoat, we sure have made a mess of your question, no?
@ endubu- I do agree that in order to have peace one must prepare for war.
@ Thatguy-I must certainly don't disagree with you about the "Bearanoid" folks and the people that seem to have to have every tool in the arsenal to feel safe on the trail. I find that most of these kind of folks are the ones I run calls on. My ridiculous question was to point out that the word weapon shouldn't be used general when one is really talking about firearms.(You seem to me to be an intelligent person and I'm sorry I used your post for my point) What ever happened to folks just using their heads when they left their house? Admittedly, I'm burnt out as a firefighter. Politics, layoffs, an abusive public and 11 years/thousands of calls of seeing humanity at it's best and worse have made me yearn for anything but more of the same. It's sad really. All I wanted to do since I was a kid was be a FF and save lives. Now, getting closer to the human/planet interface (my terminology) is all I can think of right now.
The reality is we are all WAY safer on the trail than nearly anywhere else in our great country. There were 1825 lethal stabbings in 2009 (FBI Statistics 2009) I'm still more concerned about Cryptosporidium and Giardia ruining my trip.

As for the hatchet question, I'm trying to start a cult of serial killers :)

Seriously, I've always carried one, from the time I was a cub scout to camping, hiking, ATVing, whatever, I've always found a use for one and it's just a tool I like to have. I find the flat hammer side useful for tent stakes as well as the obvious uses. It's a fiskars lightweight unit.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Weary, my apology is extended to you as well.

[the judge]

More Importantly, how does one defend themselves against big foot on the trail, and does big foot use kelty backpacks?

[LordoftheWings]

Yes, Judge I do. Hamburgers and women of questionable character are my only weakness.

[the judge]

I was asked again today if i was bringing a gun on the trail, replied NO and was immediately referred to as crazy. i own a handgun and i feel it will be quite safe sitting here at home while i'm gone. i have a brown belt in judo, training in aikido, and some jujitsu, and will undoubtedly use none of that while hiking the AT unless i have to fireman carry someone to a trail head. if you are hiking alone, either kill them with kindness or use my dad's age old defense of convincing people you are an axe murderer and your almost out of happy pills.

[LordoftheWings]

Very nice. I agree. Use you head.

[the judge]

i'm weak willed toward women of questionable character and anything made on a grill myself LOW. which reminds me, i wont be bringing any of my ex girlfriends on the trail, so the level of crazy will be low.

[LordoftheWings]

NOW THAT, is the best defense I've heard yet!

[the judge]

lol my dad is a wise man

[SunnyWalker]

I would carry the pepper spray in my pocket. I usually wear shorts with big side pockets on the side. Like an Army pant type of thingy. If I meet someone and I was nervous I would put my hand in the pocket and grasp the pepper spray. Once I have done that I am ready to use it should I have to. No, you were right, if it is the pack its no good as it would take to long to get to it. Now, I have never taken pepper spray on hike. but in town this is what I do. Though I usually have it in left or right jacket pocket.

[SunnyWalker]

I meant to say the hand remains in the pocket grasping the pepper spray. When the "danger" or perceived danger is gone, I of course just pull the hand out minus the cyl of pepper spray. "Elementary my dear Watson".

[randyg45]

I haven't read the entire thread, which I would make a fair-sized wager is comprised mostly of people making fun of the very idea of carrying anything deicated personal protection, many of whom will tell you to just "trust your instincts". Yeah.
My instinct, and experience, is to go armed.
Do you know any cops? Ask them what they would do, perhaps. Hypotheticals can be useful. But first, or perhaps only, ask them what they already do. I don't think I've ever known a cop who would go to his grandmothers house unarmed. The simple facts are that there are dangerous people in the world; sometimes, and only sometimes, can you spot them after a moments conversation.
And so, there you are, alone, two miles from the nearest almost-empty country road, it's dusk, and your instincts are telling you that the guy who just walked up to your fire is definately bat****, and quite possibly violent. What good, exactly, are those "instincts" without some form of weapon?
I'm 6'3", 275#. You can probably outrun me (my days with the 82nd Airborne MP Co are several decades past), but if I've set it up correctly you'll run right into the arms of mt confederate just around the nexrt bend. Wanna try to hit me with a 14 oz trekking pole? Seriously? You could probably break my arm with a 3#, 60" hickory hiking staff; better yet, maybe, you could whack my shins hard enough to put me on the ground (an old MP standby for breaking up "bar wars"). But that little hiking pole is far better suited as a tent pole than as a weapon.

Pepper spray is considered, essentially, 100% effective at blinding your assailant (at which point, hell, he might even be vulnerable to a hiking pole). There are only two serious drawbacks to it, imo. One is wind. Try to keep your assailant downwind. If you are dealing with a four-legged predator he will probably take care of that for you. The second is less often mentioned: its use is strongly contraindicated inside a moving vehicle. That is: don't use it inside a car, hitchhiking.

My mother, then in her 70s, was accosted leaving a mission/church at which she used to volunteer. Not a trail. A church. She had one of my S&Ws in her purse. All she had to do was show it. My gifts to my children, my nephew, my niece at their 21st birthdays were self-defense firearms. My daughters had/will have pepper spray in their purses from the occasion of their first date.... Two of my former students (concealed weapons classes) have had to use deadly force. They are 2-0 in the field, and 2-0 in the courtroom. It's a dangerous world. My family and I go armed.

At least take the pepper spray.

[the judge]

honestly, the people that say they are taking guns sound very nervous and dangerous to me. I only carry mine on my motorcycle for when I'm in a large city and have 410 self defense rounds in it. I don't recommend flashing a gun, the state laws here make that worse than actually shooting someone. as for assuming someone is bat ***** crazy, you're probably not going to know the true crazy by looking at them. I'm 6'2" 250lb, covered in tattoos, long beard, and appear crazy to some due to my sense of humor. if everyone assumed I was a psycho off of that, I wouldn't stand a chance. books and covers blah blah blah

[rickb]

My daughters had/will have pepper spray in their purses from the occasion of their first date.... Two of my former students (concealed weapons classes) have had to use deadly force. They are 2-0 in the field, and 2-0 in the courtroom. It's a dangerous world. My family and I go armed.

At least take the pepper spray.

Any thoughts on OC concentrations?

And how about those lipstick size pepper spray options? Seems to me one might be much more likely to have one of those handy (palmed, perhaps?) as a dog breaks from its owner or yard and comes running up to you-- or otherwise keep accessible for other threats. But they obviously cant pack as much spray.

[Wise Old Owl]

I was asked again today if i was bringing a gun on the trail, replied NO and was immediately referred to as crazy. i own a handgun and i feel it will be quite safe sitting here at home while i'm gone. i have a brown belt in judo, training in aikido, and some jujitsu, and will undoubtedly use none of that while hiking the AT unless i have to fireman carry someone to a trail head. if you are hiking alone, either kill them with kindness or use my dad's age old defense of convincing people you are an axe murderer and your almost out of happy pills.


The Bears have been training with Karate too....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqDE0qjn5Oo&feature=fvst

[LordoftheWings]

I knew those sneaky bears were up to something :)

[LordoftheWings]

Just and after thought. If you finish your sentences with, "According to the prophecy" Those strange people may either leave or give you a heads up on their mental status if they agree with you?

[Slo-go'en]

I have a feeling that those who advicate carrying a serious weapon on the AT are those with little or no actual experiance on the AT. Anyone who has spent any time on the trail knows that someone who brings along a gun will quickly wish it were made of chocolate so they could eat it!

Your also much more likely to die of self inflicted injuries, such as hyperthermia or a heart attack then by the actions of some other critter, be it two or four legged.

[the judge]

Just and after thought. If you finish your sentences with, "According to the prophecy" Those strange people may either leave or give you a heads up on their mental status if they agree with you?


this is right up my alley, but I'm enough of a smart ass that I'd start replying with "but the book says we shallnt pass in threes..."

[mweinstone]

since i was a kid ive imagined having the power to rid the world of all weapons in the blink of an eye. nothing but clubs and rocks would remaine. every knife, ebery bow, all guns and every beam, bombs and weather machines and slingshots. but then it would be a mad rush to build weapons and in no time we would have all new.but i still blink my eyes every once in a while and imagine haveing that power.might be nice, for a day or two....

[randyg45]

Rick, back in the 90s I ran the gun department for a regional sporting goods store and as a result knew most of the local LEOs, jail guards, private security, bounty hunters... Helped find a couple fugitives myself. We sold a fair amount of the stuff. I'm pretty sure that 5% was just about the only thing available.
No one ever told me that they got it in the eyes of someone without the stuff blinding the guy. I got a teeny amount in my eyes once (defective unit). I think of myself as very tough mentally. I could not open my eyes for at least a minute, probably longer. Interestingly enough, it doesn't hurt that badly. It just produces an autonomic response- your eyelids slam shut without conscious desire to do so; your subconscious will not let you reopen them. Tear gas and mace are different stories. They can be ignored by an effort of will; a drugged recipient may laugh at their effects as he throttles you. Not so oleo resin capsicum.
Anyway, 5% should be fine. I've heard that concentrations over 10% may cause permanent damage...

[hailstones]

Only protection you will need is a good pair of ear plugs for nights at some shelters,other than that you can leave you weapons at home,more crazy ppl in town.

[sheepdog]

Rick, back in the 90s I ran the gun department for a regional sporting goods store and as a result knew most of the local LEOs, jail guards, private security, bounty hunters... Helped find a couple fugitives myself. We sold a fair amount of the stuff. I'm pretty sure that 5% was just about the only thing available.
No one ever told me that they got it in the eyes of someone without the stuff blinding the guy. I got a teeny amount in my eyes once (defective unit). I think of myself as very tough mentally. I could not open my eyes for at least a minute, probably longer. Interestingly enough, it doesn't hurt that badly. It just produces an autonomic response- your eyelids slam shut without conscious desire to do so; your subconscious will not let you reopen them. Tear gas and mace are different stories. They can be ignored by an effort of will; a drugged recipient may laugh at their effects as he throttles you. Not so oleo resin capsicum.
Anyway, 5% should be fine. I've heard that concentrations over 10% may cause permanent damage...
no one beats the pepper spray

[weary]

Only protection you will need is a good pair of ear plugs for nights at some shelters,other than that you can leave you weapons at home,more crazy ppl in town.
The question is not whether there are more crazy people in town than on the trail, but rather two questions. Are there crazy people on the trail? If so, will a weapon help you deal with them?

The first answer is easy. There are crasy people everywhere, especially on trails. Luckily virtually all of us are harmless. In 70 years, I've never met one I've considered dangerous once I got to know them. First impressions were occasionally different.

The second answer will depend on everyone's experience and fears. I long ago decided that even if I carried a weapon, it was unlikely to do anything useful, so I haven't. Plus the dam things are heavy and I already carry too much, like extra sweaters and things to rescue crazy ultra lighters when they run into trouble.

[LordoftheWings]

Maybe if you throw your earplugs at your attacker or the ill-tempered squirrel it may cause them to start laughing so hard you'll have enough time to escape?

Crazy people and criminals are everywhere. Even on the trail. Pretending or wishing it not so, sounds a little fairytale-ish to me. I'm not saying you should carry anything, from sticks to guns. I am a firm believer in Darwin's theory. Go anywhere unprepared and nature will sort that problem out for you.

In reading all of the posts here, I don't think I read a single thing about firearms or other weapons for that matter being survival tools? Being lost in the woods and safely fired can help rescuers find you? Using the powder inside the case can help you start a fire? Short of jumping out of trees like Rambo, firearms are infinitely easier at procuring game over knives and rocks. It's all relative. The entire subject of hiking/self defense/survival. The tools you have and the knowledge in which you use them will determine your outcome.

BTW. I have some GREAT friends that thought it would be funny to reach under the stall of the bathroom and freeze my underwear with a CO2 extinguisher while simultaneously giving me a squirt of 5% pepper spray. I was literally helpless. I couldn't see, couldn't pull my drawers up to chase someone down and remove their reproductive organs. I was incapacitated. Does that help anyone?

[Sickmont]

BTW. I have some GREAT friends that thought it would be funny to reach under the stall of the bathroom and freeze my underwear with a CO2 extinguisher while simultaneously giving me a squirt of 5% pepper spray. I was literally helpless. I couldn't see, couldn't pull my drawers up to chase someone down and remove their reproductive organs. I was incapacitated. Does that help anyone?

All i can say is...revenge is a dish best served cold, buddy.

[WingedMonkey]

If you are worried about killing "ill-tempered squirrel", taking bullets apart to start a fire, and killing game to survive then you have a big misunderstanding of what the AT is. It is NOT a surviaval course or a place to play Rambo. There are other places for those fantasies.

[hikerboy57]

I grew up in NYC , went to High school in the South Bronx and College in harlem , back in the 70s when the NY crime rate was through the roof.I've worked in some pretty rough places as well, and I NEVER felt the need to carry a weapon.Predators prey upon the weak. I dont think people come into the woods to do harm to others, theres just not enough potential targts. their succuess rate would be much higher in towns and cities, so why bother to haunt a trail looking for a potential victim. Although there have been some instances of violence on the trail, it is so miniscule that you'd me much better off worrying about ticks and poison ivy. I've had several bear encounteres , and the bear always ran off when he knew I was around. I personally see no reason to carry a weapon, and I think if you choose to take one, you'll just end up regretting the extra weight.

[sheepdog]

I grew up in NYC , went to High school in the South Bronx and College in harlem , back in the 70s when the NY crime rate was through the roof.I've worked in some pretty rough places as well, and I NEVER felt the need to carry a weapon.Predators prey upon the weak. I dont think people come into the woods to do harm to others, theres just not enough potential targts. their succuess rate would be much higher in towns and cities, so why bother to haunt a trail looking for a potential victim. Although there have been some instances of violence on the trail, it is so miniscule that you'd me much better off worrying about ticks and poison ivy. I've had several bear encounteres , and the bear always ran off when he knew I was around. I personally see no reason to carry a weapon, and I think if you choose to take one, you'll just end up regretting the extra weight.

That's been proven wrong several times. There have even been serial killers on the AT. Hike your own hike --fight your own fight. I've worked 30 years in jails and prisons--seen all kinds of people. I carry a gun most everywhere.

[hikerboy57]

That's been proven wrong several times. There have even been serial killers on the AT. Hike your own hike --fight your own fight. I've worked 30 years in jails and prisons--seen all kinds of people. I carry a gun most everywhere.
Hey, thats your right, but my own life experience tells me that those who look hard enough for trouble will most certainly find it.

[sheepdog]

Hey, thats your right, but my own life experience tells me that those who look hard enough for trouble will most certainly find it.
Can't help but agree with that. I just refuse to be a victim. I've hiked a lot of miles and never needed a gun. I went into a lot of businesses walked a lot of roads and never needed a gun. It would really suck to need one and not have it. My trail name says it all, "I've been standing between the sheep and wolves most of my life."

[Slo-go'en]

I've worked 30 years in jails and prisons--seen all kinds of people. I carry a gun most everywhere.

And that no doubt has jadded your view of humanity, since you get to meet the very worst, collected over a larger area and all put in one place.

[rickb]

My trail name says it all, "I've been standing between the sheep and wolves most of my life."

I like that!

[sheepdog]

And that no doubt has jadded your view of humanity, since you get to meet the very worst, collected over a larger area and all put in one place.

You think so??? :D

[rickb]

I've posted this link before and no one seemed much interested. Of course that probably holds true for most of what I post.

But since this has to do with safety and is actively promoted by the ATC, once again here is a link to the on-line version of book by Michael Bane that speaks to the topic at hand:

http://www.gorp.com/hiking-guide/travel-ta-hiking-outdoor-skills-camping-sidwcmdev_056742.html

[mudhead]

I've posted this link before and no one seemed much interested. Of course that probably holds true for most of what I post.

But since this has to do with safety and is actively promoted by the ATC, once again here is a link to the on-line version of book by Michael Bane that speaks to the topic at hand:

http://www.gorp.com/hiking-guide/travel-ta-hiking-outdoor-skills-camping-sidwcmdev_056742.html

That is a good book, good link. I have read a portion of that book long ago online on the gorp site. It was free. (it was slow.)

You get karma points.

[LordoftheWings]

Lol, @ winged monkey. I have no misconceptions my friend. Just a good sense of humor and the knowledge that I'm human. I haven't been raised by wolves or trained by the worlds most renowned survivalists to eat bugs and make a bicycle out of duct tape and fertilizer. The fact that I CAN get lost and possibly turn my leisurely hike on the AT into a nightmare of survival is just good insight my part. To think that any inexperienced (or experienced) hiker is immune to falls, broken bones, or taking a wrong turn is ludicrous. I'm merely pointing out that there is always tools in ones belt, realized or not.

[randyg45]

It's really good to know that if my life expectancy is measured in seconds, not only are various LEOs only minutes, or maybe hours, away, but that communications includes "word of mouth".

[randyg45]

I think every rational person on the planet would probably agree that the human race would be better off without weapons of any kind. It would be a great social experiment. I would love to not ever have to worry about my own or loved ones safety.

I think every rational person in the world would agree the human race would be better off without greed, hatred.... but without weapons my 80+ year-old mother, my wife, my daughters would all be utterly helpless if attacked by a man of, say, my size.

Weapons protect the weak from the strong, the lone from the many.

[randyg45]

Havent you ever seen "Last of the Mohicans" with Daniel Day-Lewis?
"the Patriot" with Mel Gibson? :)

[randyg45]

Hey, thats your right, but my own life experience tells me that those who look hard enough for trouble will most certainly find it.

The implication I take away here, the logical companion to this thought, is that those who are found by trouble somehow deserve it.
Some people- rape victims, perhaps- might take offense to that.
Being prepared does not constitute "looking for trouble".

[weary]

I think every rational person in the world would agree the human race would be better off without greed, hatred.... but without weapons my 80+ year-old mother, my wife, my daughters would all be utterly helpless if attacked by a man of, say, my size.

Weapons protect the weak from the strong, the lone from the many.
On the other hand, however, almost all 80+ year-old mothers, wives, and daughters, manage to live out their lives without ever firing a shot in anger -- even in those bad, crime-razed cities, or while walking on volunteer-built, quiet woodland trails.

[hikerboy57]

The implication I take away here, the logical companion to this thought, is that those who are found by trouble somehow deserve it.
Some people- rape victims, perhaps- might take offense to that.
Being prepared does not constitute "looking for trouble".
this is pretty lousy logic. But in my personal experience, in life , you get what you expect, what you put your thoughts towards, you will naturally gravitate to.. To be prepared is fine. to be paranoid is not.If you feel the need to bring a weapon, just know how to use it. I dont believe its necessary, thats all.

[DapperD]

On the other hand, however, almost all 80+ year-old mothers, wives, and daughters, manage to live out their lives without ever firing a shot in anger -- even in those bad, crime-razed cities, or while walking on volunteer-built, quiet woodland trails.That's because most of them who are likely stuck living in those "crime-razed cities" have bars on their windows and doors and have locked themselves in their homes before the sun goes down:rolleyes:

[SunnyWalker]

The truth of the matter is on the trail, just as in "real life" you are probably going to be ok and you'll have a great time. However, there is always the chance that trouble will reach out to you. You don't have to look for it, it can just happen and the possibility is always there. We've seen this happen on the trail and in real life. This is no matter what you say or think the circumstances may be such that you are in a world of hurt. In that situation any self-defense training or weapon you might have could save your life. I think it is less likely to happen on the AT then it is in "real life". BUT the possibility is always there. You can't argue or reason it away, ok? To me the choice is to carry pepper spray IF I wish to be "prepared" for this eventuality. In this way I might have a fighting chance. When I carry pepper spray am I walking around afraid, or freaking out or paranoid? No, I'm probably not even thinking about any danger I might run into. The argument that weapon carriers are nervous folk or freaky or something is a warn out argument used by antigun proponents. Is it accessible? Well of course it is because I have thought it out and my "lifestyle" reflects this choice to carry (in this case pepper spray). In the case I am assaulted on the AT I for one would be thinking of self-defense only (use pepper spray) and then leave with the goal of reaching the police. No gun battle, no shootout, just get away, get safe. I think this idea of carrying and the thought of using pepper spray is reasonable, and a safe alternative to carrying lethal weapons. And lighter of course. Have I carried on the AT? No. I have hiked AT but have not carried spray or any lethal weapon. However, its always a gamble. Always. No argument or reasoning can win here. It may happen, it could. I have seen it happen close to me. But I sleep great, I don't worry, etc. But I know it could always happen. I guess its a risk we all live with, I am aware though. I think many are not aware. And awareness is probably the best defense of all.

[sheepdog]

And, as I tried to suggest in a report on a recent Maine court case, acting on your gut could result in lifetime imprisonment.
better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6

[SunnyWalker]

Cute dog, sheepdog.

[weary]

better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6
Not if your "gut" results in you killing an innocent person. Or in the case in Maine, where a mistaken belief that a shove and a tresspass by a couple of punks, allows you to shoot them to death.

[LordoftheWings]

Weary, were you beat as a child?

[LordoftheWings]

@ RandyG- I do agree with you. Everything looks good on paper. I've had patients that were raped (male and female). I've had elderly folks that were tied up and beaten after home invasions. I've even had a good FF friend of mine working his second job delivering pizza, tied up, robbed and pistol whipped in an abandoned house. None of which were, "looking for it." I live in a VERY rural neighborhood and the median age is around 70. Proof that it can happen anywhere. There's absolutely no argument anyone could make to change my views on ones rights to defend themselves. Our forefathers thought it was so important they made it second only after freedom of speech. That's what makes this country great though, even those who would never fire a gun to protect this country can still complain about it.

[Iceaxe]

this is pretty lousy logic. But in my personal experience, in life , you get what you expect, what you put your thoughts towards, you will naturally gravitate to.. To be prepared is fine. to be paranoid is not.If you feel the need to bring a weapon, just know how to use it. I dont believe its necessary, thats all.

I have found this to be true as well. This does not mean that those that find trouble "deserve it". Thats not what i take it to mean. There is something to this though and it can even be found in human mythology.
In the mythology of the Buddha when in a previous incarnation he was "Prince Five weapons" he rode out near a great woods where he met a demon named sticky hair. Feeling threatened he used all five weapons but each only got stcuk in the demons hair. He punched and kicked and head butted the demon until he himself was caught up in the sticky hair of the beast. Then the beast said: "You are surely scared now!" To which the prince replied: "No. I have that within me that is capable of blowing both of us to smithereens". With that the demon let him go and Prince five weapons made the demon the guardian of that wood.
Anyhow if you want the whole story here it is.
http://www.buddhanet.net/bt_5.htm

By using his intelligence he conquered the demon and then assimilated the demon.

We get the adventure our mind is prepared for be it good or bad. We can't change chance and bad timing but we can change the odds by being a vital person.
The influence of a vital person vitalizes others.
Walking in fear, we see only danger around every corner and communicate our apprehension to those we meet.
If we walk boldly we may still find danger but the nature of our character will communicate our greatest strength within us.
In the animal world the sick and weak get preyed upon. We as humans are more than animals yet on some levels, such as aggresion, we still recognize things in an animal way.
When a person is confident and strong minded you can tell it at a glance.
That is the most powerful line of defence against those that would prey upon us and it weighs nothing.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Iceaxe, I won't pretend that I know anything about mythology but the lesson remains true. Using your head on the trail will likely yield the best results for all of us, 2 legged or 4. I do agree with your adage about body language as well. As I stated in another topic about dogs, Any hiker/person should take the time to learn about a dogs body language, when they're afraid, when they're stable and happy....ect. This can be echoed through much of nature as well as human interactions. Making yourself the "pack leader" as Mr. Milan puts it, can and will lead to a happier and healthier life.

[rickb]

Weapons protect the weak from the strong, the lone from the many.

Good point.

To expand on it a bit, not everyone's risk is the same. Many things factor in to one's individual risk that you simply can't change by projecting a certain kind of attitude:

Amount of time spent on the Trail
Sex
Sexual orientation of hiker and partner (if any)
Where you wish to stay (shelters or no shelters)
When you will be hiking (season, weekend, etc)
Who you will be hiking with (male/female/group)
Age

I think it is probably easier for 30-50 year-old straight men who spend a few weekends on popular stretches of trail during the summer with a couple of friends to conclude other's risk never merits one carry a weapon (not even pepper spray) on the AT.

[Thatguy]

I don't really worry about people who carry weapons on the trail. As a matter of fact I like to have them as friends!

One thing that does worry me are people who carry weapons and don't know how to use them. THAT is a very dangerous situation.

Last year at a shelter a girl was taking things out of her pack. It was just her and I. She pulled out a Bretta 92 and put it on the table. When I looked at her she said "My uncle gave it to me at Springer. It's just for show. It's not even loaded." Then she giggled. I asked if I could look at it and she agreed.

I made a shocking discovery that the safety was off, the magazine was empty but there was a round in the chamber. When I showed this to the girl she giggled again and said how her uncle was a such a "goof." I was pretty horrified. I think her uncle was something other than a goof.

I think we all agree that could've ended very BADLY for someone. If you DO take a weapon, know how to use it.

[john gault]

I don't really worry about people who carry weapons on the trail. As a matter of fact I like to have them as friends!

One thing that does worry me are people who carry weapons and don't know how to use them. THAT is a very dangerous situation.

Last year at a shelter a girl was taking things out of her pack. It was just her and I. She pulled out a Bretta 92 and put it on the table. When I looked at her she said "My uncle gave it to me at Springer. It's just for show. It's not even loaded." Then she giggled. I asked if I could look at it and she agreed.

I made a shocking discovery that the safety was off, the magazine was empty but there was a round in the chamber. When I showed this to the girl she giggled again and said how her uncle was a such a "goof." I was pretty horrified. I think her uncle was something other than a goof.

I think we all agree that could've ended very BADLY for someone. If you DO take a weapon, know how to use it.
That girl is an accident waiting to happen. That hits a nerve in me because I've seen it too much...complacency. Not just with firearms but everything. I would have taken that bullet from her.

[Skidsteer]

I made a shocking discovery that the safety was off, the magazine was empty but there was a round in the chamber. When I showed this to the girl she giggled again and said how her uncle was a such a "goof." I was pretty horrified. I think her uncle was something other than a goof.

I think we all agree that could've ended very BADLY for someone. If you DO take a weapon, know how to use it.

Please tell me you trailnamed her Barney Fife.

[randyg45]

On the other hand, however, almost all 80+ year-old mothers, wives, and daughters, manage to live out their lives without ever firing a shot in anger -- even in those bad, crime-razed cities, or while walking on volunteer-built, quiet woodland trails.

Absolutely true.
In a related sense, I have driven over 1,250,000 miles without an accident.
I carry truck insurance.
I don't think I have ever had a cargo claim.
I carry load insurance.
I have never died, or fired a shot in anger outside a combat zone.
I carry life insurance, one form of which holds 5 rounds of .22 WRM and weighs less than 8 ounces.

[randyg45]

I am absolutely confident in my judgement to err on the side of caution when it comes to the use of a firearm.
Those who lack that confidence should not carry.

[randyg45]

Excellent post imo. Some migh add "white" and "large".

[weary]

Weary, were you beat as a child?
Well, at the age of 11, I competed in a three mile race -- and finished last. I also rarely won wrestling matches. That's why I took up hiking and learning to identify creatures and plants in the woods. It was less embarrassing.

Most of my old buddies are now dead, but I seem to keep going, though as I was looking through the list of hikes for the ATC biennial conference in July, I noticed I paid special attention to those identified as E(asy).

BTW. What does getting beat as a child have to do with carrying? My message on that issue is pretty much the same as everyone else. Know the real dangers and know how to use whatever tools you carry. I do suggest that your right to defend yourself is not always as broad as some seem to suggest.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Thatguy, I absolutely agree with you. I'm obviously a pro-gun advocate, but it's those situations that scare me the most. The unsafe and uneducated having possession of deadly consequences. I applaud you for looking out for your safety as well as hers(and everyone elses). I wish her thoughtful Uncle was caring enough to teach her proper safety and usage. A painted squirt gun would have been a lighter and safer option for "show" gun.

@ Weary, I know that people can sometimes play Devil's Advocate and suggest opposite trains of thought for the purpose of debate or discussion. I welcome it.
It would just seem, to me at least that your postings about this subject are driven by fear, and are slightly scary to me to be honest. I just envision you to be like the kid that was always picked on in school and beaten by his parental guardians. As far as the sports things go, I'm sorry it didn't work out well for you. I applaud you for trying to make it work and being involved. It isn't always about winning. Having the guts to do the races and wrestle is commendable.
I just don't see where statements like "firing a shot in anger" or the case of the idiot that shot the two "thugs" is truly relevant. We don't have to agree on this or any other subject. I'm just trying to see your points without raising my eyebrows and shaking my head (empty as it might be) in confusion.

As far as you suggesting our rights aren't as broad as some seem to suggest, I would like you to elaborate a little. I'm sure things would be different if I were King.

[Mongoose2]

It would just seem, to me at least that your postings about this subject are driven by fear, and are slightly scary to me to be honest. I just envision you to be like the kid that was always picked on in school and beaten by his parental guardians. As far as the sports things go, I'm sorry it didn't work out well for you.

LOTR: why you would post some crap like this is beyond me. It's really over the top to suggest that. Although I am a big supporter of 2nd amend rights, Weary has some valid and well stated points.

[sheepdog]

better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6


Not if your "gut" results in you killing an innocent person. Or in the case in Maine, where a mistaken belief that a shove and a tresspass by a couple of punks, allows you to shoot them to death.
If you're tried by 12 you are alive.

If you're carried by six, you are dead.

Alive is beter IMO.

[weary]

If you're tried by 12 you are alive.

If you're carried by six, you are dead.

Alive is better IMO.
Well we all have our different perspectives. But I'd rather be dead than to discover my actions had resulted in the death of an innocent person because I had relied on my "gut" or instincts in an ambiguous situation.

We can all imagine scenarios where a weapon would be helpful. But as near as I can tell from this and other discussions, no one has ever reported that anything like those imagined scenarios have happened in the real trail world.

The problem, as I've said, is that unless someone tells you in advance that they intend to harm you, the assailant always has an overwhelming advantage.

Talk of following your "gut instincts" really worries me. Eccentric people abound on trails. Let's face it. Most dedicated long distance hikers are on the weird side. I sense occasional nervousness on the part of other hikers when I hike -- an old bearded backpacker, carrying decades old tattered gear.

Even my stories are weird. I made the mistake once of telling people camped in the Mahoosucs that when I walk the area I sort of think of the 40,000 acres Mahoosuc Preserve as mine. I first wrote the stories about 400,000 acres that Maine preserved starting in 1820 and then forgot what it had done. The Mahoosucs became publicly owned as a result. Come on what could be weirder than that. Apparently no one at the shelter was armed, because no weapons were drawn.

[LordoftheWings]

@ Weary-OK, I can totally respect that logic. I can also also agree that 99.9% of the time a firearm wouldn't be needed on the trail. Eccentric people don't bother me. I welcome the difference. It can be said as well that trusting ones gut instincts can be a bad idea. When someone is pushed into the "red" zone they revert to training and instinct. The triggers for "Red" zone can be any number of stessors, being attacked, lost, hypo/hyperthermia, malnutrition, loss of a loved one, accident ect.ect. If someone hasn't been trained for the appropriate reaction, trusting or reverting to an instinctual habit can be negative for sure.
Taking pride and ownership of ones loved places/things is by no means alarming to me. If you were to tell me that story at a shelter I would think, "Awesome, here's a guy that really loves this section of the trail and feels like it's home turf"
Now if you had said, "Hey Wings, I just cut the throats of 3 helpless Nuns walking the trail about 2 miles back. Could you help me carry their body's to the shallow grave at the side of the railroad track?" If I wear carrying, I'd probably be slowly reaching in my pack.
Thank you for clarifying.

@ Mongoose2- It's LOTW. I love Tolkien's work but I love wings more.
Both of my parents were abused children. In dealing with them and their fears/concerns throughout the years I have had a hard time understanding their ways of trying to communicate with me. I got the very same feeling with some of Weary's statements.
It's also a common statement in West Central Florida to say, "You were an abused child, weren't you?" When someone says something you don't understand or don't agree with.

Thanks again Weary for the clarification.

[John B]

... "Hey Wings, I just cut the throats of 3 helpless Nuns walking the trail about 2 miles back. Could you help me carry their body's to the shallow grave at the side of the railroad track?" If I wear carrying, I'd probably be slowly reaching in my pack.
Thank you for clarifying.
...

Do you spend much time thinking about and preparing for this type of contingency? :-?

[rickb]

I carry life insurance, one form of which holds 5 rounds of .22 WRM and weighs less than 8 ounces.

To me that caliber of insurance is like $10,000 policies they sell on TV to cover the cost of a funeral.

Me thinks that if you are going to buy a policy, you need more coverage!

[LordoftheWings]

@ Mongoose2-Your previous statement was to imply that your disapproved of my comments. It's O.K. if you do. I'm a very open and honest person and there isn't much that I won't talk about. I wish to understand people and their thoughts so that I might get some insight that I might have missed otherwise. My methods and dialog may not be the same as yours, but I will try to accommodate you if you have a specific question.

[LordoftheWings]

@ John B, absolutely not, just a very vivid imagination and disturbing sense of humor:D

[Lone Wolf]

i'll be packin' when i leave springer soon

[Rambler1]

Is that so you can shoot the hippies ?
I hear they don't carry so should be easy shootings...

[rainmaker]

Moderator, has this discussion not run its course?

[Skidsteer]

Thank you Mrs. Grundy.

[weary]

i'll be packin' when i leave springer soon
What changed your mind? You've said in the past that you didn't carry on the AT because it wasn't necessary..

[randyg45]

To me that caliber of insurance is like $10,000 policies they sell on TV to cover the cost of a funeral.

Me thinks that if you are going to buy a policy, you need more coverage!

Lol. .22WRM actually has more kinetic energy than a .38 Spl (than a standard, i.e. not +P, .38 Spl). The solids have unreal penetration; HPs make a real mess in groundhogs.... The range of the average shot fired by on-duty police officer is about 7 feet. I like my little peashooter as far as caliber. The five rounds are a little sketchy.

For, uh, formal dances :sun I have a heavily customized Colt 1911A1, Galco shoulder rig with mag holders, etc etc. The NAA Black Widow is just something to put in my pocket in the woods.

[Tuckahoe64]

:sun I have a heavily customized Colt 1911A1.

Well... lets see it!

[randyg45]

Just a thought. A recent Maine case suggests that the right to defend oneself may not be as black and white as some on White Blaze seem to think.

A man this winter was sentenced to life in prison for murdering two brothers. I believe from the newspaper accounts, that one of the brothers had been convicted a few months earlier for assaulting the guy who has now been convicted of the murders.

On the night of the killings, the two brothers were walking down the street, saw the killer on his porch. They walked onto the porch and one of the brothers "shoved" the killer and was shot. The other victim went to his brother's aid and was also shot to death.

The killer claimed self defense. Neither the jury nor the judge saw it that way.

One certainly has the right of self defense. But not with a weapon more powerful than is needed for that defense. At least in Maine, pending the results of appeals.

Are you referring to the Holland case? This is a post from a person claiming to have been on the jury:

"You know... I'm not entirely sure where you got your information, but everything you posted as information is totally wrong... I'm quite sure my information is pretty accurate, considering I was ON this jury.

So here's a list of my information, from what the Jury had to decide on:

1. They didn't go to Rory's house to collect a debt. They were in fact going to a friends house that was on another street, about a mile away, to collect the debt... it was $5.00. That friend testified in court.

2. There was indeed a party and these kids had been drinking and some, not all, had weed in their systems. But apparently partying isn't something uncommon for them, which is the case with a lot of people, of all ages.

3. These friends weren't there for moral support or anything of the type. They were all friends with the guy that owed the money, they left the party together, they went to the *debtors* house together and left together... with the exception of the guy on the bike. He went to the *debtors* house after the others had been there for a little bit.

4. They didn't go to Hollands house. They were walking by, no one knows exactly why Rory was out of his house, even he didn't give an answer, and we were the ones deciding his fate. Gage was in fact past Rory's walk way when he was shot, making one wonder if Rory didn't walk out from behind the fence as Gage walked by.... hmmmm. Derek was crossing the street when he was shot, 14 feet away from Rory. Yeah, self defense there.... No one stepped foot on Rory's property, not that night.

There seems to have been no assault that night; this looks more like (unreasonable, unjustified) retribution than self defense to me, and it appears the jury saw it the same way.

My limited research into this shows Maine law allows one the use of deadly force if he feels he is at peril for death/grievous bodily harm and needs to use deadly force to return himself to a condition of safety. Which is pretty standard.......

[Lone Wolf]

You've said in the past that you didn't carry on the AT because it wasn't necessary..

not for me but i carry for the sheeple. i will take out a bad guy no questions asked. i am a Marine who is always on duty