View Full Version : Camping close to artifacts (Split from Straight Forward Fining Thread)
I have been fined, but no on the AT.
I was in canyon lands national park. We went to the wrong entrance the first day to pick up our permits. We then had to drive to the other side around the park due to a closed road and lost many hours and got a real late start. Then we had a straggler that got lost as soon as it got dark. She was with a guy but they were two first timers. We eventually found them after a couple of hours. Once we found them it was dark dark. we were still 2 hours in the dark from our scheduled campsite. Hiking in the dark there is not like hiking in the dark here on the AT. You do loose the trail. Hiking there is dangerous, cliffs, climbing just to follow the trail, through slots and even cave things. We decided for safety to call it a day and get an early start and make it up the next day. So we found a slab of rock and set up for the night. They have Cryptobiotic soil there and you are not supposed to step on it or you will kill it and it takes like 1000 years to grow back. So we found a rock to sleep on. We were trying to LNT. What we didn’t know was that the slab of rock was too close to an Indian wall painting, that we did leave undisturbed obviously. We were practicing LNT but we broke two rules, being too close to artifacts, and not sleeping where our permits says. An an off duty ranger out hiking saw us. They saw us leaving the park a week later and pulled us over. Then they made us follow them an hour back to the head quarters an hour in the opposite direction where they actually questioned us for TWO HOURS before giving us a $ 165 fine. We lost 4 hours because of this. This was while we were trying to get the other car (car shuttle) while 4 people waited on us. They knew that. I understand that we broke the rules so we got fined but they treated us like criminals. We admitted to everything, were polite and when questioned explained our reasoning over and over again. We were actually separated in to separate rooms and questioned separately. It was over the top ridiculous. They did back ground checks on us, took our IDs. Now it makes a good story to tell but at the time we were not happy to be treated like criminals and when we showed up 4 hours late to pick up our friends they were understandably worried.
Also we learned to never blindly trust whoever is working at the back country office. An old lady and a teen aged girls showed us on the map where the springs and water sources were. They didn’t mention or even know they were seasonal. We went two days with dry springs. All most had to bail to the nearest road (10 miles). We learned that the rangers behind the desks are usually behind the desk for a reason. We have run in to this issue in several parks. I have a friend that works in YNP that I used to live. He says the problems is that when hiring the ability to be a real ranger and hike in to the back country is not even considered thanks to the quota requirements? Then you have to find jobs that these people can do and often that includes paperwork.
Sorry I could rant on this subject for hours……
Then they made us follow them an hour back to the head quarters an hour in the opposite direction where they actually questioned us for TWO HOURS before giving us a $ 165 fine. We lost 4 hours because of this. This was while we were trying to get the other car (car shuttle) while 4 people waited on us. They knew that. I understand that we broke the rules so we got fined but they treated us like criminals. We admitted to everything, were polite and when questioned explained our reasoning over and over again. We were actually separated in to separate rooms and questioned separately. It was over the top ridiculous. They did back ground checks on us, took our IDs. Now it makes a good story to tell but at the time we were not happy to be treated like criminals and when we showed up 4 hours late to pick up our friends they were understandably worried.
Also we learned to never blindly trust whoever is working at the back country office. ...
Did you write your Member of Congress and Senators, as well as the National Park Service about this? I would. If it was not too long ago, might still be worthwhile, giving details of your experience and naming names. Sorry to hear you and your friends had such a bad experience in such a beautiful place.
I have to add that I do try to make every reasonable effort to follow the rules, am all ways respectful or authority, and LNT. I have encountered many rangers and law enforceable in and out of the back country and never had any other problems. In fact many times they have helped me out, never with anything big like a rescue but things they did to be nice. Like extending a permit so I could stay out longer without returning and asking for another permit. So again I am not complaining about rangers, I believe the above was an isolated incident.
Did you write your Member of Congress and Senators, as well as the National Park Service about this? I would. If it was not too long ago, might still be worthwhile, giving details of your experience and naming names. Sorry to hear you and your friends had such a bad experience in such a beautiful place.
I work for the park service for my town. Not the national park service. we get a little more freedom to do what we want. still very political though. We get around much of it by having a physical skills test that we estimate 99% of college students would fail. It consists of a long ocean swim, short soft sand sprint, soft sand distance run, and Holds and releases under water. Then a drug test. many div 1 athletes fail. But the result is a staff of 90 males and 99% Caucasian staff. But I can say with confidence that every single one of us is more that qualified. But we do get a lot of heat for not following quotas.
Did you write your Member of Congress and Senators, as well as the National Park Service about this? I would. If it was not too long ago, might still be worthwhile, giving details of your experience and naming names. Sorry to hear you and your friends had such a bad experience in such a beautiful place.
The part you ""ed doesn't bother me any more because it was years ago and was a one time thing and I was in the wrong.
The part about unqualified people running the back country offices giving out information that peoples lives can depend on (like water sources in the desert)... That still bothers me because the more I look for it the more I see it. This winter we went to .......
big bend. great back country office! thumbs up!
big sur..old lady but seamed to know MOST of what she was talking about.
Joshua tree WARNING: we went in the south entrance and the office was run by two teenage girls, both horribly over weight and couldn't answer ANY of our questions. The one redeeming things was that they didn't give us any wrong information.
Rain Man
04-23-2011, 14:55
I was in canyon lands national park. ... the slab of rock was too close to an Indian wall painting.... We were actually separated in to separate rooms and questioned separately. It was over the top ridiculous. They did back ground checks on us, took our IDs. Now it makes a good story to tell but at the time we were not happy to be treated like criminals …
If I'm not mistaken (and I often am), one of the seminal reasons CLNP was created was because of people stealing artifacts from sites in the area.
Thus, I can certainly understand rangers questioning groups illegally at protected sites, no matter the nice stories the suspects have to tell. Sounds as if the rangers were thorough, but not really over-the-top. Seems sort of like a case of "no harm, no foul" by your group and by the rangers too.
At some National Parks, they may have suspected you of being marijuana farmers.
Rain Man
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Montana Mac
04-23-2011, 16:14
In Yellowstone, before the wolves decimated the elk herds< antler picking was big business.
I got stopped by a ranger (full power of arrest type) because I was driving a truck with a topper on it that had blacked out windows. He semi accused me of being an antler picker and wanted to search my vehicle. I explained the reason for the dark windows was that I carried fly rods and my saddle back there and really didn't want people to be able to see them.
I am a retired LEO. After speaking with him for a while he explained how if they get somebody that is an antler picker and has a GPS they confiscate it and check all of the way points for antler caches. Conviction for that crime includes both jail and/or fines and confiscation of vehicle. Like Indian artifacts they take the crime very seriously and pursue it to the end. Based in that I can see why maybe the rangers questioned you for so long. There was just a recent TV show on a guy that for years stole Indian artifacts from a burial ground.
I get that even more now after reading the last two replies. But we were next to a painting on rocks. I dont know how we could have stole it.
Also does anyone know off the top of their head how far apart shelters are on either side of boiling springs. That sounds like a mandatory big day if you are not even allowed to camp on a 15 miles section.
I think some times people are too worried about being politically correct.
Who gives a rat's patoot what color or gender somebody is? Or whether they're overweight? Cripes, give some thought to your elitist attitudes. Never know when some fat hispanic lesbian might save your life. Woud that upset you? (shaking head)
you totally missed my point
The part about unqualified people running the back country offices giving out information that peoples lives can depend on (like water sources in the desert)...
and
........ the office was run by two teenage girls, both horribly over weight and couldn't answer ANY of our questions.
when in real wilderness be careful who you get your info from, when your life depends on it. My hiking partner is my GF and she carries more weight up hill faster than any of my male friends. But when you go in to a back country office and see pale 300+ # teen age girl behind the desk in the desert. you might take their advice with a grain of salt. you would be better off finding a real ranger with dirt on his or her boots and ask them.
weather its politically correct or not you can tell a lot about a person by their physical appearance. Especially when they work for the national park service.
Tusw, I think the rangers may have suspected you of doing more than what you say! We can argue about thier methods but I think they did what they did to make sure you and your party were not disturbing historically and archeologically signifiant sites, which as Rainman alluded to has been an issue in parts of CLMN and elsewhere.
I have spent time hiking and camping around, what to me, were "piles of rocks" and "scratches on rocks", ignorantly not considering that these are religiously, archeologically, and historically significant to other peoples.
The NP service tries to balance the needs/desires of many peoples inside given boundaries and sometimes by working with other agencies/groups/private citizens outside those boundaries. It's the same with the AT and its governing agencies! It can be a difficult juggling act!
Sometimes, in some instances, the NP(park) became a NP(park) because it agreed to recognize, and protect just such sites! I can name bunches of NPs, SPs, Conservation areas, National Recreation areas, wildlife areas, BLM lands , etc where this is the case! INCLUDING AREAS ON OR ADJACENT TO THE AT! In an increasingly populated world, something like the AT AND ITS CORRIDOR, DOES NOT EXIST as a microcosm(sole entity). It is infleunced by and influences/lands adjoining it! I think when we start using language like doomsayers("doomsdayers") or law enforcement or fines we might(should?) consider this!
Just as with local and state law enforcement, if you had contacted others in charge, after they were convinced that your story and situation was true, they may have been able to rescind or lower the fine. Kind of like negotiating a speeding ticket from a points on your drivers license ticket down to a no points violation or from a BIG fine down to a little fine or a willingness by the ranger/officer to excuse the ticket/fine based on further review.
Hey, if a fat hispanic lesbian can point me in the direction of water in CLNP I love her!
Digger'02
05-02-2011, 09:54
ok, im gonna play the jerk here I guess, but the first rule of LNT is plan ahead and prepare. Going to the wrong entrance set you up for problems. Not researching the water situation set you up for problems. LNT starts before you head out..... but the story sucks thats for sure.
i was morel hunting in national forest near a creek when i walkd out of the woods to my car there was a game warden standing there with his head in my car window i said what are you doin and his buddy jumps out of the truck and comes at me with a ton of questions they were accuseng me of fishing without a license i had no rods or fish i told them i was morel hunting stupid wardens didnt know waht that was and began tryn to find a hole in that story... i had a cooler in the back of my car and they wouldnt let it be they had to see in it i said no and he threatend me with obstruction so i showd him my empty cooler they askd for my ID dude askd me where i live i said well bout five miles down the road he says O likie he was suprised he ran my ID and well im clean so he gives it back and they go on their way......that is harassment....obstruction of what??? i did nothing illegal or showd any signs of fishing
but about the original thread sucks they gave u the runaround like that they should know better when you say somthing about inexspereince they should teach and mke you understand....without treating you poorly then fineing you thats rather unfair situation in my opinion.
I get that even more now after reading the last two replies. But we were next to a painting on rocks. I dont know how we could have stole it.
Also does anyone know off the top of their head how far apart shelters are on either side of boiling springs. That sounds like a mandatory big day if you are not even allowed to camp on a 15 miles section.
im pretty sure there was a hiker campsite just outside town and near the AT office.
nobo darlington shelter is about 15 miles from boiling springs... and i think there is a shelter five miles befor town to
D.O.C., didn't you read the sign . It said long haired freaky people need not collect morels or fish.
YOU'RE SUSPECT!
D.O.C., didn't you read the sign . It said long haired freaky people need not collect morels or fish.
YOU'RE SUSPECT!
haha thats bout what my family told me when i told them bout this:)