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alanthealan
02-20-2005, 17:51
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?



Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?

Lone Wolf
02-20-2005, 17:55
1.Ethical? It's the smart thing to do.
2.If it's your website you can do anything you damn well please.

Mountain Dew
02-20-2005, 18:06
I'm not sure how your two questions relate, but I'll answer both. Question one is simple. Nothing is wrong with trying to find the cheapest price for gear or anything else you want to purchase. At the outfitters I work at we honor prices of other stores. All good stores will.

Question two is a totally different topic and I suspect the real point of this thread. I believe ethical isn't the proper word choice. Ethics has nothing to do with somebody editing your post if they in fact own the site on which it is you are referring. Something tells me that there is much more to this question/story that we aren't hearing. So what is it that wingnut did this time ? :datz

steve hiker
02-20-2005, 18:22
Ethical? It's a fact of modern life that most people buy big items on the internet, because that's where the best prices are. If a retailer gets you in the store to "try on" a big dollar item and you buy some small stuff while you're there, they should count themselves lucky.

UCONNMike
02-20-2005, 18:33
It's cool to shop around, although i did feel bad when i went to EMS to try the Vapor trail pack on, and I had talked to the sales guy for about an hour about hiking, we exchanged email so we could go for a few hikes before i leave, and then i had to tell him that i was gonna buy it online cause i saw it cheaper, i felt kinda bad that i had kept him for so long, but we still talk and have plans to hiek this spring around CT.

ed bell
02-20-2005, 18:40
I'd say it depends on the store and how much you pick someones brain/store for info. My local outfitter has a good competent staff that looks out for me. I'd feel bad about asking them a bunch of questions and trying out the gear for size at their location only to buy online to save a small percentage. Nothing wrong with smart shopping on your own though.

SGT Rock
02-20-2005, 18:44
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?



Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?

Ethics can be personal ethics or group ethics, the two are not the same. Example: my personal work ethic is higher than the unit I work for requires.

So if a person owns a website and it is his personal philosophy to edit posts he disagrees with, stop going there, vote with your feet. My personal ethics against censorship means I very rarely ever do it here.

As to the other, it isn't unethical, but I sometimes will pay a little extra to have something when I look at it in the store because I feel I have gotten some value from the store beyond the price of the object. Think of it this way: do you tip a waiter at a restaurant even though you have paid for your food bill? A good outfitter to me is a thing to be valued.

rickb
02-20-2005, 18:55
"Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?"

Or perhaps just go to Walmart?

Rick B

Caleb
02-20-2005, 18:55
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?



Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?

Are you getting good advice from your local retailer, or do you place a value in any of their particular business practices, or does their presence in your community compel you in any other qualitative way? Are their prices fair? Do the prices fairly reflect the added costs of the qualitative factors that you've identified as valuable? If not, then yes shop price.

As far as the internet goes, hey welcome to 2005. Most of the ambitious well-run outfitters have internet presence these days, so they're all out there competing in the same market for your dollar anyway.

One more word about buying locally: I refuse to get my face ripped off by the mom and pops who overprice just because they think they can.. for example, camping fuel is almost 200% more expensive at the local mom/ pop than it is at walmart. ($7 vs $2.50) . There's no way Walmart's outsourcing, lower wages, and market power add up to this price differential. The fact is, Walmart out-innovates and out hustles the mom and pops every day of the week. They price their stuff as low as possible. The mom/pops price as high as possible. It's two different worlds, two different business models. C

White Oak
02-20-2005, 19:01
If your conscience really bugs you, shop on the internet exclusively. Just make sure the internet seller has an exchange policy in case you order a size too large or small.

weary
02-20-2005, 19:02
Ethics can be personal ethics or group ethics, the two are not the same. Example: my personal work ethic is higher than the unit I work for requires.

So if a person owns a website and it is his personal philosophy to edit posts he disagrees with, stop going there, vote with your feet. My personal ethics against censorship means I very rarely ever do it here.

As to the other, it isn't unethical, but I sometimes will pay a little extra to have something when I look at it in the store because I feel I have gotten some value from the store beyond the price of the object. Think of it this way: do you tip a waiter at a restaurant even though you have paid for your food bill? A good outfitter to me is a thing to be valued.
I agree with the good sergeant. And it goes beyond a matter of ethics. Local stores with good staff are a thing to be prized. They won't survive if folks just pick their brains and buy elsewhere.

I tend to be a scrounge when it comes to money matters, in part because we live on a fairly tight budget. But I do try to pay for value received, even when I can get away with not doing so.

Weary

alanthealan
02-20-2005, 19:59
I’m not using names, but this all came about when I posted a reply to somebody’s question on where to shop for gear. My suggestion was edited and I got a PM saying that my statement was unethical. Maybe in some peoples view, maybe not. However If you didn't like my post say so in the forum start a new thread, express your ideas, send a pm ask me to change it. I guess if you own the site you can do as you please, but to preach ethics as you edit my words to fit your own little world of delusion is childlike.

Clark Fork
02-20-2005, 20:10
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?



Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?You can probably get a better more succinct answer from living Trail Poets like L. Wolf but dead philosophers provide some food for thought.

E. Kant provides some guidance to most perceived ethical dilemmas.

Kant introduces two concepts called categorical imperitives The first is:

“Act only on that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”

In the instant case of shopping buying elsewhere, you have to ask "What if everyone did it?" If you think about it, you are reminded of the arguments put forward by the Utilitarians that stressed the greatest good (happiness) for the greatest number. Is it good for all if everyone shops locally and then buys somewhere else? Could the savings be put to better use for the greater good (happiness)?

The second is:

“So act as to treat humanity, whether in thine own person or in that of any other, in every case as an end in itself, never as a means only.”

Applied to the shopping/buying question, on the surface it appears that intentionally using the store persons to narrow down the choice to be made somewhere else is using someone as a means and not an end. That seems on the surface not to pass the ethical test set out by Kant.

As to editing postings, there is the Kant frame work. What if everyone edited another posting and is editing treating another person as an end or a means (for futhering another view)?

It is snowing heavy in Western Montana.

Clark Fork

NICKTHEGREEK
02-20-2005, 20:46
I have no problems whatsoever paying more to keep the local outfitter open. They are there for me when I need them, they employ local folks, and help with the local tax base. I do buy off the web, but it is for stuff that I simply can't get locally. If they don't carry what I want, I tell them, and give them the first shot at my $. Northern Virginia has a pretty vibrant economy and I want to keep it that way with lots of small speciality stores and services. I don't want to live where walmart is the only game in town.

Rain Man
02-20-2005, 21:05
... to preach ethics as you edit my words to fit your own little world of delusion is childlike.

Tsk, tsk.

Besides, how do you know it's not a big world of delusion?!!!
:dance

Rain Man

.

Caleb
02-20-2005, 21:54
I’m not using names, but this all came about when I posted a reply to somebody’s question on where to shop for gear. My suggestion was edited and I got a PM saying that my statement was unethical. Maybe in some peoples view, maybe not. However If you didn't like my post say so in the forum start a new thread, express your ideas, send a pm ask me to change it. I guess if you own the site you can do as you please, but to preach ethics as you edit my words to fit your own little world of delusion is childlike.
Child_ISH...the word you're looking for is childish not childlike. Theres' not a thing wrong with being childlike. It is the original state of grace we were all born into (most of us), a state of innocence, wonder, and presumption of safety. i hope to get back there myself one day. C

alanthealan
02-20-2005, 22:14
I forgot to say it wans't this forum, it was another. Kant? I think we need to look to Ann Rand for this one.

The Old Fhart
02-20-2005, 22:18
madmantra-“Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?
Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?Maybe the question should be: “Is it ethical to start a thread that is a personal rant disguised as a legitimate question? Sounds kind of childish to me.

Caleb
02-20-2005, 22:49
I forgot to say it wans't this forum, it was another. Kant? I think we need to look to Ann Rand for this one.
Kant and Rand aren't as far aprt on this as it might seem. To both, enlightened self-interest and collective good are one and the same. They do go about things a little differently though. Rands prism of selfishness has a lot of merit, especially as it relates to human nature. But where both falls short -our natures and Rands philosophy- we must look to Kant and others for guidance. C

Skyline
02-20-2005, 23:33
I always give the local outfitter(s) first shot at my dollar. They earn it, too.

Only if they don't carry what I want, and for whatever reason I can't wait for them to special-order it (if they can), will I buy off the internet.

Taking up a lot of an outfitter staff's time to learn about gear, or getting a pack or boots fitted, or assembling a tent, or crawling in a sleeping bag--and then buying the very same product elsewhere to save twenty bucks--is extremely unethical IMHO. If you want to buy off the internet go ahead and do so but don't waste the outfitter's time.

Mountain Dew
02-20-2005, 23:56
It's obvious you speak of wingnut.

Pecan
02-21-2005, 00:08
Give Wingnut a sack of salted fresh roasted pecans, and he'll be a new man.

Frosty
02-21-2005, 00:51
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?Of course not. It is a deception.

Unless, of course, you go to them and say, "I have no intention of buying anything from you. I only want to get as much information as I can from you so that I buy items somewhere else cheaper than you sell them for."

Say that, and I'd have to say you were being ethical. Otherwise, you are not being truthful.

My 2 cents.

steve hiker
02-21-2005, 01:13
Of course not. It is a deception.

Unless, of course, you go to them and say, "I have no intention of buying anything from you. I only want to get as much information as I can from you so that I buy items somewhere else cheaper than you sell them for."

Say that, and I'd have to say you were being ethical. Otherwise, you are not being truthful.

My 2 cents.
Nonsense. Since when do you have to "declare your intentions" when entering a public market? It's not like you're visiting the store owner's daughter. Since when are you required to purchase something for the privilege of entering or leaving? You're not stealing anything by window shopping. If anything, you're contributing to the appearance of the business being busy and filled with shoppers, which is a plus. If anything, the owner should give you a spork just for stopping by.

Dances with Mice
02-21-2005, 02:05
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?]I've gone into outdoor stores, usually outdoor sections of large sports stores, and checked out stuff, roamed the aisles, pulled equipment out and unboxed it, and nobody came to ask if I needed help. I've also asked for assistance and found that the salesperson had no idea what I was talking about. In those cases I didn't feel bad about walking out and ordering the same equipment on-line.

But then I've also been to places with extremely helpful staff who have spent time discussing my gear needs and their merchandise (Atlanta's northside REI store and Reality Bikes in Little Five Points to plug two examples). I'll buy there, and return there, because I appreciate good service and I've taken the time of an employee who could have been helping someone else.


Is it ethical to edit someone’s post because it is obscene? Never.

DMA, 2000
02-21-2005, 03:26
I believe a Talmudic proverb enjoins one against entering a store with no intention to buy. While I'd happily make allowances for window shopping, or a period of info gathering and comparisons, I would say that if one's intention is to gather information and take someone's time and then go home and buy it elsewhere, that is unethical. Or test-driving a Lexus when your next stop is the Hyundai dealership is probably an unethical use of a dealer's time. Now, if in the course of one's research, someone legitimately finds a better deal, or decides that the Hyundai really is more sensible, that might be a different matter. Intention has something to do with it.

art to linda
02-21-2005, 08:31
Ethics... a whole can of tuna. Basically, personal ethics are the rules we set for ourselves that allow us to function in society in such a way as to be comfortable with ourselves. If you don't feel comfortable with what you have done then find out why and do what needs to be done to fix it.

There are few outfitters where I live but I do cruise those that are here, sometimes buying sometimes not. A lot depends on price, if they have what I want/need and quality. I'm not "required" to spend in a store but any clerk that gives of his/her time and knowledge recieves my thanks and a smile. If they go the extra bit to be helpfull it puts the place in mind for when I am looking for a specific item that they might carry. I may not get a big ticket item but usually make enough smaller buys before leaving.

As to editing your post.... When posting on someones web site you're playing in their sand box. They set the rules, and if they want to rearange the toys or tell you to pick them up and go home it's their right.

Here at WB, we may squabble in the sand box (even throw sand at each other ;) ) but unless you get really out of hand there will be no editing..... there may be times when you want to go back and edit your own posts rather then have them on record and people do use that feature. :)

Stuart
02-21-2005, 08:47
I have no problems whatsoever paying more to keep the local outfitter open. They are there for me when I need them, they employ local folks, and help with the local tax base. I do buy off the web, but it is for stuff that I simply can't get locally. If they don't carry what I want, I tell them, and give them the first shot at my $. Northern Virginia has a pretty vibrant economy and I want to keep it that way with lots of small speciality stores and services. I don't want to live where walmart is the only game in town.

I'll have to chime in here with NICKTHEGREEK. If we don't support the smaller outfitter soon they won't be there.

Some of the outfitters along the AT will also ship to you and this can be a good way to get gear while supporting the businesses along the trail. Last year I was looking for a specific bag not sold locally. Through this forum I was directed to Bear Mountain Outfitters, which sold the line and had the exact bag in stock when everyone else was out. I was glad to make the purchase from a small business along the AT.

Granted we are all on a budget, but if we fail to support the small outfitters they won't be there when we need them. So for bigger ticket items such as WM bags or packs, before you mail order from a large retailer I'd encourage you to query here and look to support AT businesses. Plus the personal level of service you get in talking with these guys is beyond what you'll get from salesreps at the big stores.


Finally, while we are imbued with the whole notion of competition and purchasing from the cheapest source, give some consideration to where that ultimately will lead. Anybody on here that's been around for awhile has seen numerous small businesses fall by the wayside to larger corporations. Neat thing is we all believe this is BEST for us

Cheaper prices, faster service all while economic power is increasingly centralized and wealth increasingly concentrated. Hmmmm..... Of course we tend to be concerned with the here and now and right here and now we can live with it. And we're all into the nature thing, so we can invoke Darwin here as well.

Okay I'm off my soapbox. I've got to run to Wal Mart real quick before a buddy and I zip on over to Best Buy and see what kind of deals they have on surround sound systems!! :datz :datz :datz

shades of blue
02-21-2005, 08:47
You know...I was thinking about this editing thing. I really don't see an ethical way for someone to do this. I mean, I see them deleting the whole post or even asking you to leave, but not change your words. If someone changes your words and makes you look like you are saying something that you are not....that is wrong, in my opinion. If anyone was able to do this, how could we know the true opinions of anyone. People could edit audio, or video tapes to make a public official seem like he supported something that he doesn't. This is the highest form of lying to me. That doesn't mean WF can't do it, it's just wrong. I wouldn't give him, or anyone else who did this my words to edit again.

hikerjohnd
02-21-2005, 09:30
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?




It funny this post surfaced this weekend as I wrestled with this very dilemma while buying shoes.

My local outfitter (which for some reason is going out of business :-? ) suffered from a severe lack of customer service. Every time, EVERY TIME, I went to my local outfitter, I had to seek out an individual to ask a question and this usually involved pulling them away from a riviting conversation about their art class at the local university. Normally their input on a particular piece of gear was limited to "well, we sell a lot of that model, so it must be good," or "the colors are not very popular with hikers this season, perhaps you'd like something in a red?" With this level of customer service, I have no problem using the store as a fititng room. I will not support a business that does not take the time to hire qualified individuals who are there to help the customer.

This past weekend I stopped off in Jacksonville to try on shoes at Black Creek Trading Post. The sales staff greeted me at the door, let me browse uninterupted, and when I needed help to try on shoes, I was sized, and properly fitted. I tried on just about every shoe, and the employee didn't bat an eye - she even brought most of the shoes out without being asked. She didn't push one shoe over another, she was just interested in finding the best fit. I didn't leave with the most expensive pair, nor the least, but I did leave under budget, with a pair I feel very comfortable in.

When I stop at an outfitter to check out gear, I don't mind spending a few dollars more if the outfitter is friendly, helpful, or at least upfront about their limitations (ie we just got that in and don't have much experience with it...) I know I can find these particular shoes on the net for less, but I have to support a business that strongly committed to customer service. :)

alanthealan
02-21-2005, 11:55
The one in Jacksonville, FL? That is good to know. When I get done out here I have to do some shopping, boots being one of the items I have to replace. I have been wondering if I would be able to find a decent outfitter who can fit boots.



This past weekend I stopped off in Jacksonville to try on shoes at Black Creek Trading Post. :)

The Weasel
02-21-2005, 12:48
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?



Is it ethical to edit someone’s post, not because it is obscene, but just for the fact that you personally disagree with it?
1) Maybe.
2) Maybe not.

"Ethics" and "morality" are essentally synonymous, and they are not universals, to the extent they are systems: An ethical system - a religion may be one - has core beliefs that must be followed and, which, if followed, will lead to "right action." "Thou shalt not kill leads to people not killing each other. But one system, in terms of the behavior called for, may be both internally consistent ("Do no work on Sunday" applies to every Sunday) and contrary to other systems ("It is OK to work on Sunday.") Those two sets of behavior aren't, and can't be consistent. But each is equally acceptable for the belief system that requires them. That's why there are religous books - to set out the rules. It's also why there are speed limit signs - also to set out the rules. And it's why it is generally agreed - at least in our pluralistic society - that it is unethical to hold someone accountable, subject to criticism or punishment, for violating rules of behavior of an ethical system without being told in advance that such behavior was unlawful impermissible. Doing so is the classic definition of "arbitrary" conduct.

So, someone may have a set of core beliefs that says, "Small outfitting stores are a highly desireable thing." That makes it easy to say, "Comparison shopping that results in sales elsewhere is bad, and punishable."

It's also possible to say, "I own a website, and I believe that small outfitters are totally good." To say otherwise on that site is, literally, sacreligious, and subject to penalty.

And lastly, it is possible to say, "I own a website, and I can, and will, do anything I wish to or for anyone." That's ethical: It states the value system and the core belief, and others can either live with it or avoid the web site.

It is, however, flat out wrong to not publish, or state, those or similar rules, and then expel someone for violating them. I don't care if the person owns the site or not. Doing so is not, on their part, ethical behavior, but totally arbitrary.

So, the answer to the first is, "Yeah, maybe it is unethical to do that, if you believe it is. If you don't believe that, though, and no other society or community you belong to makes that a part of their beliefs, well, it's not.

And the answer to the second is, "Yeah, if you post the rules to a forum, you can do whatever you want that's consistent with them. But if you don't give advance warning, then calling something a 'forum' is a free discussion within whatever other rules ARE stated. In other words, even God should play fair. And so should backpacking website owners.

The Weasel

hikerjohnd
02-21-2005, 13:21
The one in Jacksonville, FL? That is good to know. When I get done out here I have to do some shopping, boots being one of the items I have to replace. I have been wondering if I would be able to find a decent outfitter who can fit boots.
Yes - Black Creek Trading Post is off of Gate Parkway (which is off of J turner Butler Blvd (aka JTB)) and is a bit hard to find if you've never been before. The helpful staff makes the trip worthwhile for me - but I usually am in Jax for other reasons. Erica helped me this weekend, but I have yet to meet a sales person that is not friendly, helpful, and well informed! :)

steve hiker
02-21-2005, 13:36
A local outfitter who had a very friendly staff closed its doors last month. I liked them, but I never bought a large gear item there. Also to be truthful, they never had any advise that I couldn't find on hiking forums like this one. The small retailer cannot compete with the internet.

icemanat95
02-21-2005, 14:58
I'm not big on the practice, but I have been known to do it. It is almost impossible not to shop somewhere and buy somewhere else when you are an aggressive comparitive shopper. This weekend I was in LL Bean in Freeport and took a long, hard look at the various titanium and aluminum cookpots available. They had some MSR offerings as well as a couple of Snowpeak pieces. I rather liked the Snowpeak stuff, the MSR pieces were nice, but pricey and large, really just titanium versions of their steel cookpots. For real lightweight alcohol stove work the MSR pots are wildly oversized. I'm not certain about the kettle.

I wasn't ready to buy yet and there are a number of other pieces I want to look at first. So When I do buy I'll find it from the best source available.

However, I buy quite a bit from LL Bean, including shoes, shirts, boots for my kids, etc. so I don't feel guilty.

But if you go into a shop to just try on a few things with the intention of buying them on the Internet...then you may have some ethical concerns.

A Webmaster may ethically edit the postings of people on his or her forums IF and only if he has a posted list of rules and the posting clearly violates those rules. A webmaster whose rules change without notice or on a whim, has an ethical problem though he remains within his rights to edit as he sees fit the materials on his site.

Just my opinion.

grrickar
02-21-2005, 14:58
I would like to point out a couple of things:

Just because you are buying online doesn't mean the place is not a 'mom and pop' shop. Many 'local' outfitters sell online too because it expands their customer base. You can buy online AND support a small business - a win-win situation IMO.

Just because you are shopping a local outfitter doesn't mean the kids that work there know anymore about the gear than you do. Local shops usually have better staff than big box shops as a rule, but there are exceptions. I don't mind paying more for advice and to support a local shop, but if their staff is not helpful then I'd just as soon save my money and spend it elsewhere. After all, the gear is not going to be different between this store and another, so why pay more unless the place you are paying more for the item has some knowledge to impart.

I'm sure lots of 'local' outfitters think it is a great idea to open a shop and sell gear, and then find that their 'if we build it they will come' mentality was all wrong. People work hard for their money, and if you want to charge more than the next guy for something you better have an angle....

Peter Mossberg
02-21-2005, 15:20
I think you should support your local businesses and buy the item off the shelf if the difference in price is reasonable.
(Unless they are really ripping you off, or you have some other reason to hate the store.)

Nightwalker
02-21-2005, 15:28
Is it ethical to shop at a store, size things up and then look on the internet to see if you can find a cheaper price?

Sure, why not? However, I only buy stuff on the 'net these days if it's a REALLY good deal, and even then I sometimes regret it. There's no substitute for face-to-face service with a local, reputable outfitter.

Frank/Nightwalker

Nightwalker
02-21-2005, 15:38
A local outfitter who had a very friendly staff closed its doors last month. I liked them, but I never bought a large gear item there. Also to be truthful, they never had any advise that I couldn't find on hiking forums like this one. The small retailer cannot compete with the internet.
Absolutely they can. Here in Greenville (SC) we have Half Moon Outfitters, Mast General Store, Appalachian Outfitters and Sunrift Adventures. Of those, only Mast is a chain, and it's a chain of only three stores.

Little stores succeed by giving superior service and equipment. The prices have to be okay, but no one expects them to be on the level of REI.

Frank/Nightwalker

weary
02-21-2005, 15:43
This weekend I was in LL Bean in Freeport and took a long, hard look at the various titanium and aluminum cookpots available....".
Well, for us in Maine LL Bean is a "local store," but I somehow I think of them differently than I do the small independent trail store, of which Maine has several. I don't check out stuff in the uncrowded showrooms of the independents in order to later buy it at LL Bean.

LL Bean doesn't need my help. It is probably the most successful outdoors merchandizer in the world, and for good reason. They mostly sell good sturdy, useful stuff at fair prices, and with a return policy that is as good as you can get -- though I've never actually returned anything. I've never bought anything that failed to work as promised. Most of it just gradually succumbs to wear and tear. Technically I could take a worn out jacket back and get a refund. I don't. But some do. A lot of the stuff Bean donates to Maine Good Will stores is stuff returned by customers. One can usually tell. Bean cuts out the labels, leaving just enough of the fringe for those in the know to tell the place of origin. I bought my favorite spring and fall work jacket from Good Will for $5. It had frayed knit cuffs when I bought it and still does after five years. But it remains as functional as it was the day it left the factory.

For a while there was a fad by some thru hikers to buy everything at LL Bean and then return it for a refund on their way home from Katahdin. As far as I know the scheme still works for those with the gall and lack of ethics(?) to do so.

Weary

rickb
02-21-2005, 15:54
"For a while there was a fad by some thru hikers to buy everything at LL Bean and then return it for a refund on their way home from Katahdin. "


That's got to be a (sub) urban myth, Weary.

Now, if you were talking about Pur filters....

Rick B

Caleb
02-21-2005, 16:52
I believe a Talmudic proverb enjoins one against entering a store with no intention to buy. While I'd happily make allowances for window shopping, or a period of info gathering and comparisons, I would say that if one's intention is to gather information and take someone's time and then go home and buy it elsewhere, that is unethical. Or test-driving a Lexus when your next stop is the Hyundai dealership is probably an unethical use of a dealer's time. Now, if in the course of one's research, someone legitimately finds a better deal, or decides that the Hyundai really is more sensible, that might be a different matter. Intention has something to do with it.
This holds true in the US, in places. Some local courts have ruled that if a person lacks intent to purchase they can be cited for tresspassing. these laws are mainly used to keep soliciters and other undesirables out of malls. The 'buy nothing' folks often run afoul of these laws. C

hikerjohnd
02-21-2005, 17:01
Absolutely they can. Here in Greenville (SC) we have Half Moon Outfitters, Mast General Store, Appalachian Outfitters and Sunrift Adventures. Of those, only Mast is a chain, and it's a chain of only three stores.
Half Moon is also a chain. They have 4 locations and are opening a 5th here in Savannah. They are moving in where our other outfitter was and I sincerely hope they are better than the outfitter who is leaving... although I hear they same staff wil be working there. :( :datz

Percival
02-21-2005, 17:01
This holds true in the US, in places. Some local courts have ruled that if a person lacks intent to purchase they can be cited for tresspassing. these laws are mainly used to keep soliciters and other undesirables out of malls. The 'buy nothing' folks often run afoul of these laws. C
Caleb, you've really gone off the deep end here. "You come in my store and don't buy something, I'm calling the cops."

hikerjohnd
02-21-2005, 17:05
Some local courts have ruled that if a person lacks intent to purchase they can be cited for tresspassing. these laws are mainly used to keep soliciters and other undesirables out of malls.
I would be interested in reading the case documents... One can not prove intent, so it would be difficult to legislate :-?

weary
02-21-2005, 17:20
"For a while there was a fad by some thru hikers to buy everything at LL Bean and then return it for a refund on their way home from Katahdin. "
That's got to be a (sub) urban myth, Weary.
Now, if you were talking about Pur filters....
Rick B
Well, I heard it 20 years ago from a Bean employee. I ran it as a paragraph in a hiking related story, quoting someone as saying that some Bean employess were demanding that the stuff be washed before being returned.

The episode is getting a bit vague in my memory, but I think someone later sent in a letter to the editor claiming that the story was wrong, that Bean's return policy did not require even used thru hiker gear be washed.

I like LL Beans. I think they have basic good stuff. But I sometimes suspect that the return policy effects what they sell. For instance, they no longer sell the Zip Stove. I suspect an item like that would get massive returns. Most modern Americans can't stand a little soot on their pots, not even modern American thru hikers.

Weary

Nightwalker
02-21-2005, 18:27
Half Moon is also a chain.
What a trip. The so don't come across as one. They're very helpful guys, mostly hikers, and never pushy. I go in there and ask lots of gear questions between purchases, and they never give me the rolleyes.

Frank/Nightwalker

Caleb
02-21-2005, 22:39
I would be interested in reading the case documents... One can not prove intent, so it would be difficult to legislate :-?

here is case law that cites lack of intent to purchase (support commercial interest of) as part of the appellants complaint. It was upheld. C http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=407&invol=551

steve hiker
02-21-2005, 22:53
here is case law that cites lack of intent to purchase (support commercial interest of) as part of the appellants complaint. It was upheld. C http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=407&invol=551
You're an idiot, Calob. That's a First Amendment case involving distribution of advertising flyers on private property.

But you have the right idea. If a customer tries to walk out without buying something, have your security guards slap the cuffs on em and press charges.

Caleb
02-21-2005, 23:43
You're an idiot, Calob. That's a First Amendment case involving distribution of advertising flyers on private property.

But you have the right idea. If a customer tries to walk out without buying something, have your security guards slap the cuffs on em and press charges.
I didn't say it was a good idea, I just said there are laws on the books proscribing all manner of activities inconsistent with the commercial function of businesses on private property. If you read the case, you will see the court ruled against the 1 amend defense. youyr tongue is too sharp for my taste I hope we never meet. C

hikerjohnd
02-22-2005, 00:09
here is case law that cites lack of intent to purchase (support commercial interest of) as part of the appellants complaint. It was upheld. C http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=407&invol=551
Close, but no cigar. In this case, the individuals stated their intent, passing out literature. While they were expressing their 1st Amendment right to free speech, if you look at the context - 1972 - malls were 'new' and still an unknown quantity. Now, any store, open to the public, is considered public domain (we'll set aside private clubs, etc for the sake of argument) and anyone has free access during normal hours. So long as an individual does not break the law, (in this case the distribution of handbills was what was in question) a business can not legally restrict access. Loitering laws are so ambiguous in most states (especially here) that they are practically useless.

steve hiker
02-22-2005, 00:42
Calab, what are you trying to say? That you're going to try to keep people from browsing in your store if they really intend to go home and order on the internet, by posting theats to prosecute them? Obviously that is totally absurd.

I can understand you're upset by the internet revolution, but it's here to stay. And you can't blame people for shopping for the best price. That's the American way. This may sound harsh but it's reality: You must either adapt, or close your doors.

Caleb
02-22-2005, 00:44
Close, but no cigar. In this case, the individuals stated their intent, passing out literature. While they were expressing their 1st Amendment right to free speech, if you look at the context - 1972 - malls were 'new' and still an unknown quantity. Now, any store, open to the public, is considered public domain (we'll set aside private clubs, etc for the sake of argument) and anyone has free access during normal hours. So long as an individual does not break the law, (in this case the distribution of handbills was what was in question) a business can not legally restrict access. Loitering laws are so ambiguous in most states (especially here) that they are practically useless.
You're right, the case is dated. I agree too that it's probably been narrowed and re-interprteed over time. i'm sure there's others though, better examples, but I'm not doing any more research. The underlying expectation is valid... business owners expect a positive intention on the part of shoppers, and they enforce this all sorts of ways, legal and not. C http://atkeison.org/issues/news/news_20041127_BuyNothingDay.html

Caleb
02-22-2005, 01:05
Calab, what are you trying to say? That you're going to try to keep people from browsing in your store if they really intend to go home and order on the internet, by posting theats to prosecute them? Obviously that is totally absurd.

I can understand you're upset by the internet revolution, but it's here to stay. And you can't blame people for shopping for the best price. That's the American way. This may sound harsh but it's reality: You must either adapt, or close your doors.
read #9 I am not particularly pro-business. I was responding to the person who opined that this ethical question is codified in the Talmud. I was of the belief that it was also, like it or not, codified to some degree in the vast and cumbersome corpus of US law, if not by surviving statute then by historical fragment.

Baker
02-22-2005, 01:22
I had two decent outfitters within 50 miles of me.

One is ran by a bitter, pretentious guy who will 'special order the vapor trail for you, but can't return it if it doesn't fit.' He carries maybe three kelty packs; I couldn't even use him for his showroom!

The other outfitter, the one with a friendly, knowledgable staff, liberal return policy, and near-campmor prices, just went out of business.

I gave up and started making my own, giving me more money to spend on more deserving local businesses.

flyfisher
02-22-2005, 08:48
I guess I do a little bit of both. I like to support my local outfitter, who has reasonably good stock. I will buy there if I can, despite having to pay Ohio tax.

Case in point: I went down to the outfitter on Saturday morning for two purposes: to buy a photo/walking stick for my father and to try on some Tilley hats to see how different sizes fit.

I spent 2 minutes slipping the 7 1/8 and 7 1/4 hats on to see which size fit better. Then I went upstairs to buy a Leki Photo walking stick for $69. I probably could have found it on the net for a bit less.

Second case: I tried to buy a pair of Vasque Sundowners. They had a pair of 11 size but not 12. I tried on the 11 with two pairs of socks. They were too tight. I went home and bought the size 12 from an internet company in San Diego.

I believe a market will continue for walk in business. People want to shop and buy today. Shop owners will continue to make money if they have the right stuff and are in the right place. Others will make money out of a garage by making internet sales.

Some people may be able to make money both ways.