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BoiledPeanut
12-09-2011, 12:03
I like to eat sunflower seeds while hiking. My kids say I am littering by leaving a trail of shells along the trail.

Are my kids correct, or am I offering nature back what was already hers? Don't they decompose quickly?

Ender
12-09-2011, 12:08
Personally I don't see it as littering, though I would not drop them all in the same spot, but spread them out so other hikers don't see a big pile of shells.

Sailing_Faith
12-09-2011, 12:18
:eek:

...Years ago there was a thread on Paddling.net about discarding orange peels in the water...

If I recall correctly it went on for a dozen pages and evolved into personal threats.

Seems some folks have very different ideas about what 'Leave No Trace' means... for some
it kinda discourages the dumping of major kitchen appliances in the woods... Others seem to advocate packing out the air you exhale.

Seems to me like organic matter is pretty harmless, we will see what others think.

AndyB
12-09-2011, 12:28
they seem to breakdown pretty fast under my birdfeeder. I'm with you on this, tell your kids it's "organic littering". Orange peels in water!! I bet they take a long time to break down.

Northern Lights
12-09-2011, 12:54
I don't think it is littering. It will be consumed into the earth with out negative effect. <BR><BR>Now if you follow Leave No Trace to the T then leaving something behind that doesn't naturally appear there, would be a no no. <BR><BR>I've seen worse things than sunflower seeds. Someone left a big old cushion out there.

Hikes in Rain
12-09-2011, 12:57
If you are littering, you're in the same company with about a million squirrels!

skinewmexico
12-09-2011, 12:58
Tell your kids to lighten up!

Lone Wolf
12-09-2011, 13:00
I like to eat sunflower seeds while hiking. My kids say I am littering by leaving a trail of shells along the trail.

Are my kids correct, or am I offering nature back what was already hers? Don't they decompose quickly?nah, it ain't litter. i toss peanut shells to the side as i walk

Sailing_Faith
12-09-2011, 13:04
Tell your kids to lighten up!

:p .

RevLee
12-09-2011, 13:04
If it's a pile of shells inside a shelter, it's litter.

Otherwise it could have been carried there by an African or European Swallow.

leaftye
12-09-2011, 13:41
I wouldn't want to see them on the trail because that would be distracting/annoying after a while, but it's organic so I don't have a problem with it if I don't see it.

Rain Man
12-09-2011, 13:54
...Years ago there was a thread on Paddling.net about discarding orange peels in the water...... Seems to me like organic matter is pretty harmless, we will see what others think.

I consider orange peels to be litter. Bright colored. Dumped right in sight, just like paper litter. Not good. If I see stuff like that, I pick it up and pack it out, and sometimes mumble under my breath about the cretins who can't be bothered and think they are superior to all others, who should pack their litter out for them.

NOW, if the orange peels are buried, truly hidden, or otherwise out of sight, I don't have a problem, as they will decompose. I do toss shells of nuts, but I toss them, I don't just drop them on the path. That is plain rude.

Rain:sunMan

.

garlic08
12-09-2011, 14:08
I agree, no big deal broadcasting a few seed hulls into the woods. If it basically belongs there, it's not litter. I'll toss the occasional apple core into the woods, especially if apple trees grow in the area. But I get upset when I see a citrus rind or banana peel right next to a break spot. Sure, it will eventually decompose (weeks?), but it looks bad until it does, and it does not belong in the North American woods.

Last month I saw a huge pile of apples at a spring-fed watering hole in a high conifer forest above the desert. It looked like someone was trying to attract deer to hunt or poach. The apples were rotting in the water. Disgusting litter, spoiling the water, worse than the empty beer cans where the "hunter" was waiting. It was easy to pack out the cans. "Natural" materials can be litter, too. How about a pile of lumber dumped in the forest? It all depends on scale, and perception.

Lostone
12-09-2011, 14:16
An Apple core is that litter????



Leave no Trace's stance is if you bring it in with you.....you should carry it out.

George
12-09-2011, 14:16
I would try to spit for distance, same as an apple core, organic material so unseen has no chance to offend/harm

Lone Wolf
12-09-2011, 14:19
An Apple core is that litter????



Leave no Trace's stance is if you bring it in with you.....you should carry it out.LNT stance is mostly foolish

Spokes
12-09-2011, 14:34
According to Wikipedia:

"Cigarette butts are the most littered item in the world, with 4.5 trillion discarded annually".

bamboo bob
12-09-2011, 14:43
I understood that citrus peels take a very long time to decompose if left on the trail. Animals wont eat them. Apple cores will get eaten. I have heard people say that bears will pick up human scent from a discarded apple and relate food to humans but I think it is more likely that mice will eat it first. Mice are everywhere in the forest. LNT makes good sense although I have always had a tough time with the TP .

JAK
12-09-2011, 14:46
I think people should focus more on Sustainability and less on "leave no trace".
What I like about orange peels, is that people are buying oranges instead of oramge drinks.

hikerboy57
12-09-2011, 14:49
I think people should focus more on Sustainability and less on "leave no trace".
What I like about orange peels, is that people are buying oranges instead of oramge drinks.
we went to the moon, just so you could still go on eating real oranges?Do you know how many millions of dollars were spent developing Tang?

as long as theyre scattered, theyre not litter.

bamboo bob
12-09-2011, 14:55
I think people should focus more on Sustainability and less on "leave no trace".
What I like about orange peels, is that people are buying oranges instead of oramge drinks.

A pretty large carbon footprint for oranges in New England so that may not be sustainable compared to Tang made in a factory in NJ

Pedaling Fool
12-09-2011, 15:29
Many who preach LNT, geneally say that if it's not natural/native to the environment then it should be packed out. Look at what you eat and tell me what is natural to our environment.

The question of decomposition rate is asked a lot with respect to food waste Ė Itís as if one wanted to determine whether something is bad for the environment they must first answer the question of how much time it takes for a given material to decompose.

Those seeds, generally speaking, will decompose much quicker than egg shells (naturally occurring), bones, wood and many other things, yet when it comes to food waste left by humans we bring up the issue of, ďhow long it takes to decayĒ. Ė Itís irrelevant.

There are many factors that affect decomposition rate, but the primary factor is moisture. You donít need oxygen, but you do need moisture. Thatís why leaf litter stays around so long, without moisture microorganisms go dormant; without oxygen decomposition still happens, itís just that certain organisms die and others thrive. But just like leaf litter the first question that must be answered before answering the ďbigĒ question, is, how long will it take for them to cycle down to the moist under layer of the mulch? Ė Thatís when decomposition starts.

BTW, hereís an interesting study on farm animal composting. On pages 8 & 9 it talks about bones. Itís surprising how quickly the very large hip bones will decompose. http://bqa.wsu.edu/documents/ON FARM COMPOSTING.pdf

Snowleopard
12-09-2011, 15:57
It depends on where you are and what you're leaving.

Above treeline in New England, leave nothing. Organic material will take forever to decompose.

Below treeline in New England, it will be a matter of appearance and of attracting animals. On popular trails, a nice lunch spot might have dozens of hikers a day. How many 'organic' pieces of garbage will it take to make the place unpleasant? Bushwhacking in places where nobody ever goes it's not much of a problem.

Pedaling Fool
12-09-2011, 16:09
You could probably call this littering, regardless of definition: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/16/nyregion/on-the-morning-after-memories-and-debris-of-woodstock-94.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

On the Morning After, Memories and Debris of Woodstock '94
By JANNY SCOTT
Published: August 16, 1994

On the morning after, the myth-making (and the cleanup) began. Bleary-eyed survivors of the 25th anniversary of Woodstock, plastic bags on their feet and mud caked on their scalps, today staggered away from a Catskills farm that appeared to have been hit by a hurricane, and began weaving tales about the most wonderful weekend of their lives.

On hillsides strewn with garbage and abandoned tents, beside a creek bed littered with lawn chairs, underwear and rotting scraps of food, men and women packing up after the three-day festival, and even scavenging in the litter, pronounced their Woodstock the biggest, the wildest, the one with the most births.

That medical officials knew of no births did not affect their assessments. Nor did the fact that the official crowd estimates were about the same as those from the original Woodstock. As the "I survived Woodstock '94" T-shirts began turning up, nearly everyone who had stuck it out seemed dazzled by the experience and dizzy with mutual admiration.

The promoters praised everyone, including each other; the state police praised the the crowd and the New York State Thruway Authority; the town supervisor praised the state police. And the promoters praised the sponsors for turning over hospitality tents to hypothermia victims and handing out 4,000 free ice-cream bars to the departing masses. "They know the kids are hungry," said John Roberts, one of the promoters.

The official concertgoer death toll remained at two, but two more killed on their way home to Chicago when the driver of their car fell asleep on the Gov. Thomas E. Dewey Thruway near Schuyler, N.Y. Officials said a total of 2,000 people had been treated at the hospital unit built for the festival and 4,000 more in first-aid tents for conditions ranging from bad drug reactions to a spinal injury. The 24 people arrested in connection with the event included a 35-year-old man from Orlando, Fla., who was charged with attempted rape.

There was no estimate of the amount of trash to be cleared from the site, but officials said one of the sponsors, Pepsico, had brought in one million bottles. Hundreds of tents appeared to have been left behind, along with sleeping bags, blankets, shirts, beach towels, folding chairs and innumerable shoes abandoned in the mud.

Some 250 workers from a waste-disposal company would be cleaning up the garbage, said Robert Hagopian of the Ulster County Health Department. He said the trash would be hand-collected, not bulldozed, and would be separated for recycling.

David Weiss, the environmental coordinator for Woodstock Ventures, one of the promoters, said that the garbage would be gone within five days and that the ground would be reseeded, generating grass in three to four weeks. "In 1969, the site looked just like this," Mr. Weiss said of the Bethel, N.Y., site of the first Woodstock festival. "Nature has a way of healing itself very well." Even Harvey Wasserman, a senior adviser for Greenpeace, was withholding judgment. "We'll see what the place looks like in a year," he said.

The concert site, a 740-acre farm, is owned by Frank Schaller of Schaller & Weber's, the meat emporium on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, whose father turned down the promoters of the 1969 festival.

Many people involved with the festival have hoped that holding Woodstock '94 on the site would persuade county officials to abandon a proposal to turn part of it into a landfill. Some said it seemed odd that in order to accomplish that, the site had to be strewn with garbage, but Mr. Wasserman and others said it made sense.

"It's easy to be critical of what this looks like now," he said. "But if it hadn't been for this festival, it would have been a fait accompli that this would be a mega-dump. It's like an inoculation. If they reclaim the place and beat back the dump, it will be a success."

State troopers on all-terrain vehicles roamed the fields, reminding people that the festival was over. They said they would make another sweep on Tuesday to encourage stragglers to leave. Bulldozers began shoving mud around to clear paths for trucks. A few thousand concertgoers hung around to enjoy the first sparklingly sunny day since the festival began on Friday. Liberated Soft Drinks

Some sat in battered beach chairs around a campfire they had started to keep warm during the night, using wood torn from fences and concession stands. Others loped across the fields, scavenging abandoned clothes and camping equipment. A few could be seen striding off with packs of soft drinks they had liberated from food booths no longer in operation.

"It's all free -- take it, have a drink," Christopher Colby, 27, of Boston, suggested helpfully to some strangers. He was shirtless, in cut-off camouflage pants, loitering near a few dozen stacked cases of Pepsi. "They've been giving it out to all the brothers and sisters that are dehydrated," he said.

Not far away, Craig Mokrytzki, 17, from Barrie, Ontario, was photographing the scene for his mother with a disposable camera. Asked how he had enjoyed the second Woodstock, he said, beaming: "This is better than the first one. There were half a million people and more births. Everyone was a big family."

"It was the best weekend of my life," said Mike Pugliese, 21, of the Bronx. He said his parents were Woodstock veterans who had encouraged him to go. He said that in the festival environment, people seemed transformed, more caring and willing to live in the moment. They could vent their rage, he said, "by taking off their clothes, tripping on acid, rolling in the mud."

"I wouldn't have missed it for the world," said Monica Angel, a 31-year-old freelance photographer from White Plains, who said she was trying to track down her pocketbook and camera. She said they were taken from her by a security guard at the festival hospital on Friday night after she had been knocked unconscious when a crowd of dancers lifted up a man and tossed him in her direction.

"It was just a great experience," said Alanna McLaughlin, 18, a student from Hingham, Mass., who was looking for a ride to Boston because the people she had come with had left early. She and a friend, Jen Lynch, 18, had stayed. They said they didn't want to have to say that they had left Woodstock early to beat the traffic.

"My hair hasn't seen water since Friday," she said. It was partly matted with mud. She was wearing plastic-bag socks and mud-caked sandals. "I'm just trying to look somewhat presentable so people will let us in the car," she said, tears of exhaustion coming to her eyes. "Every once in a while, I think I'm just going to bawl."

"I was expecting it to be a lot worse than it was," Ms. McLaughlin said. "I didn't think it would be an experience, and it turned out to be. Of course, our experience isn't over yet. And I'd just as soon it was."

hikerboy57
12-09-2011, 16:13
cool story, john, and thanks for your post above. Its a good reminder about decomposition and the myth of rapidly degrading "organic matter",as well as SLs post about treeline.

skinewmexico
12-09-2011, 16:28
If it's a pile of shells inside a shelter, it's litter.

Otherwise it could have been carried there by an African or European Swallow.

Next you'll be trying to tell us coconuts migrate..........

Slo-go'en
12-09-2011, 18:01
I understood that citrus peels take a very long time to decompose if left on the trail.

This true, same with bananna peels, as they are not native to the Appalachian forest. Burrying them won't help much either, but does get them out of sight. Apple cores are native and at worst, might grow a new tree.

So, orange and bananna peels, please pack them out. Anything else (organic) toss..

Tinker
12-09-2011, 18:05
According to Wikipedia:

"Cigarette butts are the most littered item in the world, with 4.5 trillion discarded annually".

I saw one today on a short day hike. Aside from the paper wrapper they are not readily biodegradable. The filters are usually polyester fiber.


Fwiw: Orange peels break down so slowly we don't put them in our compost bin anymore. They seem to sit there for months, doing nothing but looking shrivelled and dry. Apparantly the microbes don't care for them. Egg shells break down more quickly, and they're made of calcium, like bone, but are thin and can be crushed easily.

Another fwiw: If I ate shelled nuts while walking I'd probably just throw the shells into the woods beside the trail.

If I ate them in camp I would probably burn the shells in the fire ring.

Shells are extra weight, so I don't eat shelled nuts while hiking. ;)

Pedaling Fool
12-09-2011, 18:54
This true, same with bananna peels, as they are not native to the Appalachian forest. Burrying them won't help much either, but does get them out of sight. Apple cores are native and at worst, might grow a new tree.

So, orange and bananna peels, please pack them out. Anything else (organic) toss..Apples are not native to north america, usless you're talking about crab apples and I'm sure no one eats those http://www.motts.com/ApplesAndHealth/AboutApples/History.aspx


Apple History

Believed to have originated in the mountainous area between the Black and Caspian Seas, the apple has long been the most popular fruit in North America. But did you know that as long as 3,000 years ago, apples were playing an important part in people's lives?

Folklore has it that an ancient Greek who wanted to propose to a woman would only have to toss her an apple. If she caught it, he knew she had accepted his offer. And newlyweds in the 7th century B.C. shared an apple as a symbol of a fruitful union.

European settlers to America brought with them their favorite fruits, which were much favored over the native crab apple. The colonists used apples to eat and also to make into apple cider, apple vinegar and hard cider. As the early colonists explored the frontier and moved from the eastern United States to the west, so did the apple. Now the apple is grown commercially in 36 states.

There have been many new varieties developed in the U.S., many of which Mott's uses for apple sauce and apple juice. Over thousands of years, the apple has changed and been developed into the many high-quality and good-tasting varieties that are familiar to you today.

Pedaling Fool
12-09-2011, 19:06
Fwiw: Orange peels break down so slowly we don't put them in our compost bin anymore. They seem to sit there for months, doing nothing but looking shrivelled and dry. Apparantly the microbes don't care for them. Egg shells break down more quickly, and they're made of calcium, like bone, but are thin and can be crushed easily.
That's not been my experience with orange peels in my compost. Never timed them to see how fast/slow they decompose, but that time will vary depending on how deep in the pile it is, pile temp, pile moisture....but suffice it to say it's not very long. And if it is on top of the pile than a green growth grows over it -- it doesn't seem to mind eating the orange peels.

Actually what lasts much longer than the orange peels are leaves from my Southern Magnolia tree (and that is native to this area), so since they take longer to decay does that mean they are bad... just because something takes longer to decompose why is that bad? Rocks must be really bad for the environment, they take a really long time... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/11/081105-bacteria-mining.html

Tinker
12-09-2011, 19:24
Re: Orange peels - it's not the environmental aspect that concerns me, I know that they'll break down over time, it's the visual pollution of orange peels that seem to last forever on the forest floor in the Northeast. In a compost bin, temperature and moisture both play a major role in bacterial activity, which breaks down food waste, and it is both warmer and wetter in Fla. than in RI.

Re: All edible food waste - it tends to attract animals to shelter and campsite areas. That is a fact. It's not too far a stretch to think that discarding such things as apple cores within a human's throwing distance of the AT would have a similar effect. I'm not saying do or don't do it, I'm just kicking possibilities around.
Something rather large came by a tent platform that I was using with a friend back in the 1980s in NH and snapped up an apple core that I tossed into the clearing. Could've been a moose or deer, but maybe not. I'd rather add my food waste to my litter bag than toss it into the bushes (unless coffee grounds count as food - I burn the grounds in the fire if there happens to be a fire at the time. Maybe I should start packing them out, too :-?).

birdygal
12-09-2011, 19:48
shells make a good compost, toss them off the trail though

JAK
12-09-2011, 19:51
It depends on where you are and what you're leaving.

Above treeline in New England, leave nothing. Organic material will take forever to decompose.

Below treeline in New England, it will be a matter of appearance and of attracting animals. On popular trails, a nice lunch spot might have dozens of hikers a day. How many 'organic' pieces of garbage will it take to make the place unpleasant? Bushwhacking in places where nobody ever goes it's not much of a problem.Nicely put.

Sly
12-09-2011, 21:30
LNT stance is mostly foolish

Pack it in, pack it out.

Wise Old Owl
12-09-2011, 21:34
Oh ...... If a Banana Peel is in the middle of the trail does that mean you will slip or a Gorilla is watching you?

Please - I can see a unbreakable plastic bottle or all the stuff that is left all allong the Georgia portion to lighten the load.. but get serious folks - you drove to the beginning of the trail.

Lone Wolf
12-09-2011, 22:57
Pack it in, pack it out.yeah sure whatever :rolleyes:

Sly
12-10-2011, 02:12
yeah sure whatever :rolleyes:

If it's OK to disrespect the woods, I guess it's also OK to disrespect a hostel. :eek:

Sarcasm the elf
12-10-2011, 02:40
[...]Leave no Trace's stance is if you bring it in with you.....you should carry it out.


LNT stance is mostly foolish

To quote my hiking buddy when I found him just off the trail after a minor bout of food poisoning left him without control of his bowels: "Dave...I think I left a trace..."

Lone Wolf
12-10-2011, 04:55
If it's OK to disrespect the woods, I guess it's also OK to disrespect a hostel. :eek:if that's what you do then OK but i don't disrespect either

Pedaling Fool
12-10-2011, 08:50
Re: Orange peels - it's not the environmental aspect that concerns me, I know that they'll break down over time, it's the visual pollution of orange peels that seem to last forever on the forest floor in the Northeast. In a compost bin, temperature and moisture both play a major role in bacterial activity, which breaks down food waste, and it is both warmer and wetter in Fla. than in RI.
Nature doesn't care one little bit if you throw your food anywhere out in the woods or even on rocks, eventually it will become soil, but I agree you about the visual pollution, that's why I'd put it under the top layer of mulch. My compost pile is moist because I add water to it, we've actually have been fairly dry over the past couple of years. And it gets sufficiently warm up in RI and futher north. Show me a reference that states orange peels take a significantly longer time to decompose up in RI or further north.



Re: All edible food waste - it tends to attract animals to shelter and campsite areas. That is a fact. It's not too far a stretch to think that discarding such things as apple cores within a human's throwing distance of the AT would have a similar effect. I'm not saying do or don't do it, I'm just kicking possibilities around.
Something rather large came by a tent platform that I was using with a friend back in the 1980s in NH and snapped up an apple core that I tossed into the clearing. Could've been a moose or deer, but maybe not. I'd rather add my food waste to my litter bag than toss it into the bushes (unless coffee grounds count as food - I burn the grounds in the fire if there happens to be a fire at the time. Maybe I should start packing them out, too :-?).It is smart to NOT dump excess food scraps near shelters/established campsites, but scattering it out in the woods will not attract any animals. I think most of us that have spent some time in the woods has had something "large" come sniffing around our tent at night.

Just a thought: I wonder what a bear and other animals would do with orange peels, because I've heard (but I don't know if it's true) that orange peels in your garden repels cats and dogs. http://www.cheap-dog-shoes.com/wpbloger/?p=396

P-Train
12-10-2011, 09:12
A simple answer.

Buy your sunflower seeds without the shells.

Probably it won't matter at all. I would be careful not to throw anything down that could potentially grow and interrupt the eco system no matter how small.


Don't want to see sunflowers or apple trees or anything else on the trail where they shouldn't be.

Lone Wolf
12-10-2011, 09:25
Don't want to see sunflowers or apple trees or anything else on the trail where they shouldn't be.better than seein' shelters where they shouldn't be

Lone Wolf
12-10-2011, 09:25
Don't want to see sunflowers or apple trees or anything else on the trail where they shouldn't be.better than seein' shelters where they shouldn't be

atmilkman
12-10-2011, 09:34
you're overthinkin' it. its just sunflower seeds. sound familiar? (lol)

Lone Wolf
12-10-2011, 09:36
you're overthinkin' it. its just sunflower seeds. sound familiar? (lol)yeah really. little seeds for god's sake. i usta bury tuna cans back in the day. LNT

atmilkman
12-10-2011, 09:44
If the AT had been completed 100 years sooner and John Chapman (trail name Johnny Appleseed) had hiked it, we'ed all be walking on applesauce.

glaux
12-10-2011, 10:34
If I'm judging my own actions, I will put sunflower seed shells in the category of littering. I try to evaluate everything I do that as an impact, and try to minimize that impact. I might decide not to do it.

If I'm judging what other people do, the humans won't see your shells. Bears and mice will smell the salt and continue to associate the trail/people with food, but that's nothing new. The trace pesticide won't have a chemical impact beyond a few inches. It's extremely low impact. If you think "well, I left all those shells everywhere, so I'll make more of an effort to pack out my non-biodegradable waste," then that's a good thing.

I like the LNT philosophy, but it's not realistic for me to think other people are that attached to it. And if one corridor through the woods sustains a greater impact than I like, but it gets thousands and thousands of people more interested in conservation in general, then I'd rather the trail be a little more polluted and a lot more popular, if that swings public opinion in favor of not bulldozing some surrounding wilderness.

TJ aka Teej
12-10-2011, 10:47
My kids say I am littering
If you can carry your trash out, why wouldn't you?

Miner
12-10-2011, 12:15
Kids can often pinpoint a problem as they haven't learned yet how to lie to themselves. So something you are doing must be wrong to you deep down or you wouldn't be troubled by it and asking here trying to reason youself out of whatever is bothering you or finding comfort in what others are doing.

If I'm hiking and have been following discarded seeds for awhile or find large piles of it, I'm probably going to be annoyed and thinking bad thoughts about someone. And if I see Orange or Banna peels, those thoughts are going to be much stronger. If you must litter, even if it will eventually break down, do it somewhere where I can't see it.

I personally would pack out my shells, but I also agree with the guy who wondered why are you carrying them to begin with since they are dead weight until you eat them and you can get sunflower seeds without them. That just seems like too much work for what little you get out of it. It would be like making GORP with shelled peanuts and that just seems sooo.... well you get the idea of what I'm thinking.

hikerboy57
12-10-2011, 12:30
switch to raisins

Colter
12-10-2011, 12:46
I like to eat sunflower seeds while hiking. My kids say I am littering by leaving a trail of shells along the trail.

Are my kids correct, or am I offering nature back what was already hers? Don't they decompose quickly?

Your kids are right. You are littering. By your way of thinking it should be OK to throw any number of other types of organic trash on the trail. Sunflower shells aren't natural in the backcountry. They are by definition litter: small refuse or waste materials carelessly dropped, esp in public places I don't like seeing banana peels, pistachio shells, sunflower seed shells, apple cores or orange peels or any other unnatural litter along the trail.

Slo-go'en
12-10-2011, 12:55
All in all though, you got to admit the trail is amazingly free of litter.

Tenderheart
12-10-2011, 13:01
If you are littering, you're in the same company with about a million squirrels!

Good point.

mirabela
12-10-2011, 13:42
Certainly there are worse things, but the whole idea of "leave no trace" is exactly that: leave no sign, subtle or big, that you've been there.

How hard is it to just pocket the shells and carry them out, or eat pre-shelled seeds?

It's not as obnoxious as the orange peel thing, but it still "counts." As for the orange peels -- on cold New England ridge lines, there is absolutely nothing that will biodegrade those things. Leaving them on the ground is no better than doing the same with kleenex, toilet paper, and clif bar wrappers. When they disappear at all, it's because someone has come along afterward and carried them out.

Pedaling Fool
12-10-2011, 13:46
Your kids are right. You are littering. By your way of thinking it should be OK to throw any number of other types of organic trash on the trail. Sunflower shells aren't natural in the backcountry. They are by definition litter: small refuse or waste materials carelessly dropped, esp in public places I don't like seeing banana peels, pistachio shells, sunflower seed shells, apple cores or orange peels or any other unnatural litter along the trail.It's true they are not native to the Appalachians. But what does that matter to microorganisms? We are always hearing about how many problems are created by living organisms being introduced to an area where they have no natural predators, effectively placing them in paradise -- from their perspective.

But that's not the same for non-living matter. Microorganisms work at the most basic level to take matter and reduce it to its most basic chemical form, which is the same all over the planet. If there were a danger it'd be a major problem for composters. What non-living matter is a problem for bacteria/fungi? That's not to say that all bacteria/fungi can eat anything, but the life forms in the soil are so great that there is nothing on earth that cannot be degraded regardless of where it comes from and where it's placed.

Pedaling Fool
12-10-2011, 13:52
As for the orange peels -- on cold New England ridge lines, there is absolutely nothing that will biodegrade those things. Leaving them on the ground is no better than doing the same with kleenex, toilet paper, and clif bar wrappers. When they disappear at all, it's because someone has come along afterward and carried them out.Everyone keeps bring up the example of New England. In New england things do decompose, true it will be dormant on rock until the rain/wind get's it to the soil, but it will decay. Having said that I wouldn't leave orange peels laying out on the rock and I'm sure most here wouldn't, including the OP. Not because it's harmful to the environment -- it is NOT. It simply looks ugly, as Tinker put it, it's visual pollution.

leaftye
12-10-2011, 14:10
Don't want to see sunflowers or apple trees or anything else on the trail where they shouldn't be.

Sunflower seeds are as likely to grow as dropping a hot dog will grow a pig.

Ric Hamel
12-10-2011, 15:51
This true, same with bananna peels, as they are not native to the Appalachian forest. Burrying them won't help much either, but does get them out of sight. Apple cores are native and at worst, might grow a new tree.

So, orange and bananna peels, please pack them out. Anything else (organic) toss..


Wait just a second here.......I call bull dookie.

Oranges and Bananas won't decompose BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT NATIVE to the area? Seriously?

Bananas and Oranges will only decompose on glades and plantations in the tropincs?

P-Train
12-10-2011, 15:52
Sunflower seeds are as likely to grow as dropping a hot dog will grow a pig.

For sure but you get the picture. However I'm sure there are non native species of this and that where someone has buried or thrown away seeds. People grow pot in areas not too far from the trail down south. It happens.

Ric Hamel
12-10-2011, 15:55
Good to know those bananas in my pantry aren't actually rotting...lol

Ric Hamel
12-10-2011, 16:01
Certainly there are worse things, but the whole idea of "leave no trace" is exactly that: leave no sign, subtle or big, that you've been there.

How hard is it to just pocket the shells and carry them out, or eat pre-shelled seeds?

It's not as obnoxious as the orange peel thing, but it still "counts." As for the orange peels -- on cold New England ridge lines, there is absolutely nothing that will biodegrade those things. Leaving them on the ground is no better than doing the same with kleenex, toilet paper, and clif bar wrappers. When they disappear at all, it's because someone has come along afterward and carried them out.

The logical extension of the extreme LNT view is that the trail itself should not exist.

hikerboy57
12-10-2011, 16:04
The logical extension of the extreme LNT view is that the trail itself should not exist.no, the trail focuses traffic along itself, thereby helping to protect surrounding flora. there is no extreme LNT view, only those that try to turn it into some sort of religion. its just a guideline, thats all.

Cat in the hat
12-10-2011, 17:06
To find a rusty tin beer can miles off the trail on occasion is interesting, the abandoned shoes are puzzling.

Toolshed
12-10-2011, 17:15
A ranger will tell you that if Apples or Oranges don't grow in the mountains there, don't leave your cores or peels lying around, wild animals will develop a taste for it and throw a curve at them. A ranger told me that and had me beat throught the pucker brush some 20 some years ago in the Daks to retrieve a well chewed apple core I chucked after a quick lunch.
After that I used to think that logic made sense. I no longer think that - small organic waste is a huge threat. chuck it (or your seeds) out of site and move on. It's not a big deal to me....really.

hikerboy57
12-10-2011, 17:16
To find a rusty tin beer can miles off the trail on occasion is interesting, the abandoned shoes are puzzling.no where near as puzzling as the single abandoned shoe?

TD55
12-10-2011, 17:35
Nut and seed shells should be carried to the next erosion problem you come upon. Deposit nut and seed shells on the problem area. Call it trail maintenence.

ChinMusic
12-10-2011, 17:59
The logical extension of the extreme LNT view is that the trail itself should not exist.

The folks that feel a hiker should pack our sunflower shells just make me laugh.

TD55
12-10-2011, 18:38
I propose we put a vegtable seed in every little hole made by hiking poles. Someday we can change the trail name to The Appalegtable Trail.

Sly
12-10-2011, 18:48
The folks that feel a hiker should pack our sunflower shells just make me laugh.

How about pistachio nuts shells? Think it's cool to eat a bag at a shelter, or outside the Place, and just toss the shells on the ground.

I fail to see the difference. Must be an out of sight out of mind type of thing.

ChinMusic
12-10-2011, 19:20
Must be an ...out of mind type of thing.

yeppers............

rocketsocks
12-10-2011, 23:09
"MacGruff,"smoky the bear",the "Ecology" symbol,the" owl"-give a hoot don't pollute all enacted to convey a message and open a dialog.And who could forget the Indian with the tear running down his face,very powerful image.I don't mind seed husks and orange peels,ect.but please make an effort to broadcast,cover,pack out ,or something to just keep it out of sight.One of the worst things you could call a person when i was growing up was a "litterbug"I hope I never stop growing.

Odd Man Out
12-10-2011, 23:26
How about pistachio nuts shells? Think it's cool to eat a bag at a shelter, or outside the Place, and just toss the shells on the ground.

I fail to see the difference. Must be an out of sight out of mind type of thing.

I started a similar thread a few months ago, i.e. what trace is allowed with LNT? Given that it is impossible to literally LNT, then the best guideline I have seen is based on the notion of sustainability, or don't do something that will diminish the enjoyment of the trail for people who follow you. Leaving a pile of pistachio shells on the trail or by the shelter will diminish the experience for the next person. Broadcasting small bits of biodegradable material into the leaf litter next to the trail won't.

Tinker
12-11-2011, 01:34
Nut and seed shells should be carried to the next erosion problem you come upon. Deposit nut and seed shells on the problem area. Call it trail maintenence.

Just don't throw these shells around :

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_cocoa_mulch.htm

I just stumbled across this info. Home Depot used to sell cocoa shell mulch when I worked there back in 2000-2004. I'm not sure that they sell it any more.

Wise Old Owl
12-11-2011, 02:09
For sure but you get the picture. However I'm sure there are non native species of this and that where someone has buried or thrown away seeds. People grow pot in areas not too far from the trail down south. It happens.

Sunflower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower
Sunflower (Helianthus annuus) is an annual plant native to the Americas. It possesses a large inflorescence (flowering head). The sunflower got its name from its ...


Remember - Wiki blows..... And never throw your nuts and berries around.... some folk really get offended.

Wise Old Owl
12-11-2011, 02:40
If it's a pile of shells inside a shelter, it's litter.

Otherwise it could have been carried there by an African or European Swallow.

Hey I got that reference ... here ya go!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg

Tinker
12-11-2011, 02:48
Someone else had a late cup of coffee?? :D

Wise Old Owl
12-11-2011, 02:57
Yea Sailing Faith, you and me are reviewing this thread... the Great Horn Owls are about 15 in number and surrounding our house tonight high up in the pines and are making such a racket - I can hear them in spite of a "sound insulated house" - they are migrating as a group south.

Pedaling Fool
12-11-2011, 09:03
Sunflower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower
Sunflower (Helianthus annuus) is an annual plant native to the Americas. Yes it's native to the Americas, including parts of North America, but to be fair it is not native to the area of the AT. But having said that I can't see how the sunflower could become invasive, although it's one of the easiest plants to grow, I can simply throw the seeds on the ground and they start growing, but without full-sun conditions they don't produce much in the way of seeds.


BTW, most, if not all seeds bought for human consumption won't grow (I'm guessing here) because they've been roasted. However, you can easily plant the seeds that come in bird food, I do it all the time and I've transplanted some seeds that sprouted under my birdfeeder, because the birdfeeder is in the shade and they'll grow a little, then just die without producing seeds.

Wise Old Owl
12-11-2011, 10:03
Yea I scatter some and push them into the ground around the house each spring... but this LNT thing is for the birds.

Don't get me wrong, I pack it out... but we have all talked about the TP feilds growing on the AT, its a matter of perspective. I am sure not going to chase an apple core.


Wow what would have happened to Johnny Appleseed if LNT was back then?

dandandan
12-11-2011, 10:35
Albeit that its not the tastiest part of the fruit, apple cores are edible.

nitewalker
12-11-2011, 10:58
does a bear sh#$ in the woods? no he sh$%s in the road and kicks it in.....throw your shells into the woods and nobody will ever know except for u and the big guy....

weary
12-11-2011, 11:21
Nothing should be thrown on the trail. Not orange and banana peels -- not even apple cores. Off the trail and out of sight, I can't think of any harmful organic matter, though somethings are bad for wildlife.

The reason for not tossing stuff on the trail, is that most hikers prefer to walk through leaves and pine needles, as opposed to walking through garbage.

BTW, I toss six or seven banana peels a week and an occasional orange peel into my midcoast Maine compost piles. When after a year or two I move the compost to my garden, I have never been able to identify any of the original ingredients except for an occasional bone that got deposited by mistake.

Most bones I burn in my woodstove in a hot wood fire. The ashes of the wood and bones are spread on my lawn and garden. I suppose bones eventually decay also. But I hear that scientists think they have recovered DNA from 10,000 year old bones which suggests the decay isn't very rapid.

Rain Man
12-11-2011, 11:26
It simply looks ugly, as Tinker put it, it's visual pollution.


How about pistachio nuts shells? Think it's cool to eat a bag at a shelter, or outside the Place, and just toss the shells on the ground.

I'd say a lot of cigarette smokers would agree with Sly. Just toss 'em on the ground visible in public places.

Not "cool" at all.

Rain Man

.

Wise Old Owl
12-11-2011, 11:56
Hey is it possible to get bubblegum off your knobby boots?

Pedaling Fool
12-11-2011, 12:15
I suppose bones eventually decay also. But I hear that scientists think they have recovered DNA from 10,000 year old bones which suggests the decay isn't very rapid.It all depends, generally speaking, on the conditions, but for DNA to last in 10,000 year old bone, my first thought is that they're fossilized bones. However, there's always some weird surprise nature throws at us. Look here: http://www.detectingdesign.com/fossilizeddna.html#DNA

Excerpt:

One of the earliest published reports concerned DNA extracted from ancient materials (i.e., greater than one million years old) involved Magnolia leaves (with intact fragments measuring up to 820 base pairs) found in lake bottom sediments of Miocene age, supposedly 17-20 million years old.3 This find was quite interesting because the magnolia leaves were found in water logged clay deposits - i.e., they were still wet! Of course, DNA disintegrates fairly rapidly when in contact with water (complete disintegration in less than 5,000 years).33 Yet, this experiment was repeated with several scientists reporting the retrieval of authentic plant cpDNA in the 700-1500 bp size range.34,35





In commenting on the remarkably old DNA in the supposedly 17-million-year-old magnolia leaf, Svante Paabo exclaimed, "The clay was wet, however, and one wonders how DNA could have survived the damaging influence of water for so long." 24




Good question. However, most of the supposedly "ancient" DNA which has been recovered is from insects and plants preserved in dry amber, including a termite estimated to be 25-30 million years old,2 a Hymenaea leaf thought to be 25-40 million years old5 and a weevil estimated to be 120-135 million years old.1 The weevil DNA, in particular, was once thought to be 80 million years older than any other DNA specimen ever extracted and sequenced.Even more amazing than this though are the findings of Dr. Cano, a microbiologist at California State Polytechnic University. What Dr. Cano did was dissect a Dominican stingless bee trapped in amber, which was thought to be 25 to 40 million years old. What he found were very well preserved bacterial spores inside. In fact they were so well preserved that they actually grew when placed in the right environment. In other words, they were still alive! And, interestingly enough, their DNA closely matched the DNA of modern bacteria that grow inside modern bees.26 Also, fairly recently, viable bacterial endospores and proteobacteria were isolated from primary (halite) salt crystals dated at over 250 million years old.30,36 The experiments were conducted in dedicated clean laboratory facilities. So, contamination is thought to be unlikely in this case. So, of course, the age of the crystals was subsequently questioned.33,37 Logically, since it stretches the imagination that any form of living thing could remain viable for such long periods of time, perhaps the dating methods used to date the crystals were wrong? Good thinking! Also, it is interesting to note that the sequences from the study of Vreeland et al. [ref. 30] show only 13 substitution differences from contemporary bacterial sequences, whereas known mutation rates among related bacteria would have suggested 59 differences.33 In this same line, the DNA extracted from amber, even though it was maintained in a fairly dry environment, is also just as problematic as DNA sequences from ancient salt crystals. R. John Parkes commented in Nature concerning this and other similar phenomena by noting that, "There is also the question of how bacterial biopolymers can remain intact over millions of years in dormant bacteria; or, conversely, if bacteria are metabolically active enough to repair biopolymers, this raises the question of what energy source could last over such a long period." 29




http://www.detectingdesign.com/images/FossilDNA/fossil1.jpg

leaftye
12-11-2011, 15:33
For sure but you get the picture. However I'm sure there are non native species of this and that where someone has buried or thrown away seeds. People grow pot in areas not too far from the trail down south. It happens.

I agree with the non native species line of thinking, but seeing as how most people eat roasted sunflower seeds, and a roasted sunflower seeds will never ever ever ever ever grow, this line of thinking does not apply to sunflower seeds.

STINGER1
12-11-2011, 16:54
Pack it in pack it out? LNT (leave NO trace)Cigarette butts or seed shells it's all trash. Keep it simple stupid!

greenmtnboy
12-11-2011, 17:59
Good thread to bring up important points such as those addressed. I was generally told that organic debris attracks flies and other bugs, but actually I think this is very limited to certain types of organic debris. Frankly I think American society is hyper-civilized--this doesn't mean that we should all let our hair hang out and throw caution to the winds when hiking. But it does help to loosen up when hiking with regard to judging others by the standards of rules, rules, rules. Common sense should rule.

Camping Dave
12-11-2011, 18:15
How about pistachio nuts shells? Think it's cool to eat a bag at a shelter, or outside the Place, and just toss the shells on the ground.

The next time I run a trail race, I'm gonna drop my shells by some hikers.

LoneRidgeRunner
12-11-2011, 18:37
I would think ( not know 4 sure) that birds will eat the sunflower seeds? If not, they're natural, tiny and dull colored and will probably decompose quickly. Deer love apples so that will be eaten. However, comma, nothing will eat the **** stained TP that some morons leave unburied or the candy wrappers, cans...etc..

bamboo bob
12-11-2011, 18:42
How about the red pistachio nut shells, they're my least favorite thing to see on the trail. usually at some nice overlook.

greenmtnboy
12-11-2011, 18:49
I would think ( not know 4 sure) that birds will eat the sunflower seeds? If not, they're natural, tiny and dull colored and will probably decompose quickly. Deer love apples so that will be eaten. However, comma, nothing will eat the **** stained TP that some morons leave unburied or the candy wrappers, cans...etc..

That to me is one of the most egregious violations of common civility, tp out in the open, uncovered where someone took a crap. Urine at least is sterile, no one ever toxified the environment taking a pee in the woods, man or woman. If someone does not carry a trowel to dig a cat hole, he/she could try and find a shallow ditch, crap there, and cover it up with organic matter. There is usually something like moss, fern or other usable debris to wipe the butt, I hear that in much of the world they have perfected the use of the left hand in place of toilet paper.

Mike2012
12-11-2011, 18:51
Sunflower seed hulls in concentration prevent other seeds from sprouting. Look below your bird feeder and you may see this. One could argue that lining the trail with sunflower seed hulls would aid in trail maintenance or at least trail definition. One could also argue that sunflower seed hulls increase wildlife sightings because everything seems to like to eat them 'cept snakes but the snakes will show up to get the mice. Disperse off the trail or if gathered consider dumping at the next road crossing. Not a biggie. Orange peels PLEASE hurl or bury cause they seem to stick around. Still though they are part of nature and better than a leaky can of oil. Cigarette butts? NO TOLERANCE they are trash PERIOD. Pack em out.

Mike2012
12-11-2011, 18:52
How about the red pistachio nut shells, they're my least favorite thing to see on the trail. usually at some nice overlook.

Maybe you can trade them in for some extra special trail magic.

Pedaling Fool
12-11-2011, 18:56
Sunflower seed hulls in concentration prevent other seeds from sprouting. Look below your bird feeder and you may see this. Yep, there's a name for that -- Mulch. And it leaves behind very fertile soil. And the entire pile does not need to disappear before stuff start growing, plants are very good at growing through stuff -- they've been doing it for millions of years. It would take a very, very thick layer of hulls to stop any growth.

Roland
12-11-2011, 19:03
How about the red pistachio nut shells, they're my least favorite thing to see on the trail. usually at some nice overlook.

It's easy to find the guy who left the red pistachios. Look at his fingers!

This reminds me of the story of the guy who went to see his doctor, because his private appendage looked like it was inflamed like a hooker's....well, you get the picture. The Dr. examined the man and could offer no explanation. Suspecting over-use, the Dr. asked the young man if he had a recent "change in lifestyle". "No" said the patient. "I haven't had a date in months. In fact, I usually sit home alone at night, watching TV and eating pistachios!" :D

Another Kevin
12-11-2011, 23:15
I have a confession to make.

I was at a nice overlook in Bear Mountain Park in New York, enjoying the view of the Hudson and eating lunch. It was a dayhike, and I'd brought in a nice sandwich from home. A bit of tomato fell out, and before I even bent down to pick it up, the ants were all over it. I got fascinated with their activity, and sat for a while watching them. In short order, the little piece of tomato was gone. They'd carried off or eaten every bit.

I didn't try to track them down and get it back to pack it out. So, to what extent was I violating LNT? :-?

Does your answer change if I'd, uhm, run the tomato through my digestion first and left what remained in a cathole? Remember that tomato seeds in mammal feces are often viable (although tomatoes cannot grow wild in the climate of New York!).

rocketsocks
12-12-2011, 00:12
once i was hiking below bear mt and while having lunch a tomato fell out of the sky and laned on my sandwich it had ants all over it so i ate it.ain't life funny?

The Weasel
12-12-2011, 00:27
There are several compelling reasons not to drop seeds of any kind - especially sunflower but others as well - that go beyond mere "litter." If this has been covered before, I apologize...

First, and most importantly, seeds can germinate (grow) even after processing, unless it involves cooking enough to kill the seed (boiled peanuts are an example). Those seeds may represent invasive species in a particular area, and over time disrupt the local ecology. Sunflowers are particularly easy to grow, and because of their size they can affect other plants adversely.

Second, the seeds can draw unwanted animals, especially if salted. That's not good; animals learn to start feeding near human-used places (trails, shelters) and not every animal is desireable and, in fact, most aren't. Seeds like that are particulary attractive to mice, who are known carriers of Hanta virus, which is deadly and has been found in AT shelter mice.

Third, as noted, it's just plain ugly. Litter is litter; if you have to ask if it is, then it is. As said, "pack it in, pack it out.

TW

Captain Blue
12-12-2011, 00:36
Luckily most of the people who advocate discarding peels and shells on the trail spend more time in front of their keyboard than on the trails.

leaftye
12-12-2011, 02:20
There are several compelling reasons not to drop seeds of any kind - especially sunflower but others as well - that go beyond mere "litter." If this has been covered before, I apologize...

First, and most importantly, seeds can germinate (grow) even after processing, unless it involves cooking enough to kill the seed (boiled peanuts are an example). Those seeds may represent invasive species in a particular area, and over time disrupt the local ecology. Sunflowers are particularly easy to grow, and because of their size they can affect other plants adversely.

Do you eat sunflower seeds that aren't roasted? I never have.

Pedaling Fool
12-12-2011, 09:08
Some are just brainwashed by the radical environmentalists that believe anything a human does is bad for the environment. This is not a conspriacy theory, it's fact, the environmental movement has a very radical sect that preach against rational thought, based on proven science and are definitely against any scientific advancement. Don't believe me, look at what's happening in Africa.


Recommend reading: Starved For Science By Robert Paarlberg http://www.wellesley.edu/PublicAffairs/Releases/2008/020108.html

Lone Wolf
12-12-2011, 09:25
i'm gonna conduct an experiment later on. i'm gonna get a 5 lb. bag of bird seed with sunflower seeds and walk a quarter mile section of AT sow the seeds. can't wait til spring to give a report

atmilkman
12-12-2011, 09:30
i'm gonna conduct an experiment later on. i'm gonna get a 5 lb. bag of bird seed with sunflower seeds and walk a quarter mile section of AT sow the seeds. can't wait til spring to give a report
"Johnny Birdseed" can't wait either. free food.

Rain Man
12-12-2011, 10:53
Don't believe me ....

Done!

Rain Man

.

Wise Old Owl
12-12-2011, 11:02
LW pick a sunny spot and just use pure sunflower... the rest look like weeds

lutefisk
12-12-2011, 11:15
i'm gonna conduct an experiment later on. i'm gonna get a 5 lb. bag of bird seed with sunflower seeds and walk a quarter mile section of AT sow the seeds. can't wait til spring to give a report

Are you going to bear bag the bird seed when you camp, or just sleep with it?

ChinMusic
12-12-2011, 11:33
Sunflower seeds are as likely to grow as dropping a hot dog will grow a pig.

Great line.

I'm just wondering if the folks that say we need to pack out sunflower shells pack out their own spit and especially snot rockets.

Wise Old Owl
12-12-2011, 11:55
LW pick a sunny spot and just use pure sunflower... the rest look like weeds

Sly
12-12-2011, 12:13
Some are just brainwashed by the radical environmentalists that believe anything a human does is bad for the environment. This is not a conspriacy theory, it's fact, the environmental movement has a very radical sect that preach against rational thought, based on proven science and are definitely against any scientific advancement. Don't believe me, look at what's happening in Africa.



You're getting way off track.

One person spitting his shells on the trail, or at a shelter, not so much a problem. Everyone doing it, now it's a pig sty.

Odd Man Out
12-12-2011, 12:24
Sunflower seeds are as likely to grow as dropping a hot dog will grow a pig.

But I did see a half a hot dog fall out of a tree and hit my daughter on the head once. It seems the squirrels were trying to grow pigs.

greenmtnboy
12-12-2011, 13:01
Some are just brainwashed by the radical environmentalists that believe anything a human does is bad for the environment. This is not a conspriacy theory, it's fact, the environmental movement has a very radical sect that preach against rational thought, based on proven science and are definitely against any scientific advancement. Don't believe me, look at what's happening in Africa.


Recommend reading: Starved For Science By Robert Paarlberg http://www.wellesley.edu/PublicAffairs/Releases/2008/020108.html

I agree 100%. The state departments of environmental protection can be effective in addressing real threats, and that's why they were given their power to enforce the law when there was a real threat. But not laws that just mean that government has more power to justify their busy-body jobs.

To me the criteria for their position to enforce the law should be:

Is there a threat to life and limb?

Is the watershed threatened?

Is an unsanitary situation developing with potential contamination?

Is the pollution real, or just a disturbance of other's aesthetic perceptions?

If there is no provable threat, or pattern of irresponsible conduct that poses significant problems for others, then it should not be ignored.

greenmtnboy
12-12-2011, 13:02
I meant it should be ignored. No edit feature.

weary
12-12-2011, 13:09
Here is a link to what the Nature Conservancy says about litter.

http://www.nature.org/greenliving/gogreen/everydayenvironmentalist/dont-litter-and-pick-litter-up.xml?src=gpg

TNC owns or has easement interest on around a half million acres in Maine -- including 2,600 acres in my town on the coast of Maine. The conservancy owns outright 2,000 acres in that wraps around the 114 acres that the Phippsburg Land Trust owns on a small, but beautiful wild pond, as well as an easement on 600 acres of a small mountain and an undeveloped beach owned by a non profit corporation.

I'm not a TNC member and most of this has little to do with the subject of this thread. But because we are neighbors they keep me informed about such things as their views on litter.

Colter
12-12-2011, 13:18
LW pick a sunny spot and just use pure sunflower... the rest look like weeds

Better yet Lone Wolf, spread those five pounds of seeds on the sidewalk at The Place. Seeds are natural and biodegradable, and it will be funny, right?

Of course, neither of us would do that because it's not our private property, it's littering, and it's certain to offend people. Same thing along the Appalachian Trail. Biodegradability is mainly related to how long the litter lasts, not on whether an item is considered to be litter in the first place. If everyone chucked their biological refuse along our trails it would be a real mess. "It's only a banana peel, relax!" "Hey, what's an apple core?" "A little Ramen is going to hurt anything." "I'll just dress out this grouse I shot right here. Dead grouse are natural in the woods."

Pack it in, Pack it out. If those sunflower shells are too heavy to pack out, bring shelled seeds, leave them home, or give them to me, I'll pack them out for you.

weary
12-12-2011, 13:25
I agree 100%. The state departments of environmental protection can be effective in addressing real threats, and that's why they were given their power to enforce the law when there was a real threat. But not laws that just mean that government has more power to justify their busy-body jobs.

To me the criteria for their position to enforce the law should be:

Is there a threat to life and limb?

Is the watershed threatened?

Is an unsanitary situation developing with potential contamination?

Is the pollution real, or just a disturbance of other's aesthetic perceptions?

If there is no provable threat, or pattern of irresponsible conduct that poses significant problems for others, then it should be ignored.
All laws should be enforced or repealled. greenboy, however, has a silly perspective on the role of government. Highways and trails are mostly publicly owned. Government surely has a right to keep people from trashing them, just as it has a right to zone activities on private property that degrade private property owned by others..

Old Hiker
12-12-2011, 13:30
.......Urine at least is sterile, no one ever toxified the environment taking a pee in the woods, man or woman. .........

You've never seen my lawn during a dry spell after the dogs keep going in the same area! Little brown patches everywhere! :eek:

Urine is sterile until expelled, at which time it's a smorgasbord for the bacteria!

Lone Wolf
12-12-2011, 13:49
Better yet Lone Wolf, spread those five pounds of seeds on the sidewalk at The Place. Seeds are natural and biodegradable, and it will be funny, right?

.on the sidewalk? it's concrete. the seeds won't germinate silly

AndyB
12-12-2011, 13:51
are we talking about a few hikers spitting shells while hiking along or 1000s of hikers dumping 5 pound bags out into one big pile? I can't tell by reading anymore

AndyB
Is going to stick to gear forums from now on

atmilkman
12-12-2011, 14:04
are we talking about a few hikers spitting shells while hiking along or 1000s of hikers dumping 5 pound bags out into one big pile? I can't tell by reading anymore

AndyB
Is going to stick to gear forums from now on
Awe! C'mon AndyB, don't give up that easy. Throw a little "trash" our way now and then.

Pedaling Fool
12-12-2011, 14:35
Done!

Rain Man

.
Good one Rain Man;)

You're getting way off track.

One person spitting his shells on the trail, or at a shelter, not so much a problem. Everyone doing it, now it's a pig sty.No, I'm not really getting off point, there are people who call themselve environmentalists that take this stuff to the extreme, no different than the link I provided. These people are not true environmentalists, they've lost their way and are simply trying to out-do the other "environmentalists". True environmentalism is in the realm of science, not activists.

Here's an example http://www.backcountryattitude.com/lnt_beach_walking.html

And if you look at this link http://www.backcountryattitude.com/leave_no_trace.html#plan-ahead-prepare it says the following:
"Food scraps will attract insects and animals. Filter your dishwater and carry out your food scraps with the rest of your trash."

Now, come on, do you do that? Now what if everyone left their food scraps in the woods:D

I love these, "what if everyone..." scenarios. Hey, car driving is bad for the environment. What if everyone drove a car;)


The fact is most of us don't eat sunflowers on the trail. And if we all were to, I'm sure the vast majority would throw them out into the woods.

Jukebox
12-12-2011, 14:41
If you pack your food scraps out, don't put them in the trash. Compost! It is infinitely better for the environment to let organic waste break down in the woods than to be buried in a landfill to be broken down by anaerobic bacteria that will create greenhouse gasses.

Camping Dave
12-12-2011, 14:51
I throw my raw kudzu seeds onto the trail. If that's ok by LNT principles then how in the world can it be wrong to throw down a few roasted sunflower seeds?

Pedaling Fool
12-12-2011, 14:57
If you pack your food scraps out, don't put them in the trash. Compost! It is infinitely better for the environment to let organic waste break down in the woods than to be buried in a landfill to be broken down by anaerobic bacteria that will create greenhouse gasses.I'm an avid composter and gardner. Compost piles also create greenhouse gases, primarily in the form of CO2, but I get your point, because landfills create primarily methane, which is a more potent greenhouse gas. However, and this is getting a little off point, so I won't really go into it, the funny thing about methane is that the levels are not increasing as quickly as CO2, it's a real conundrum for those that study these things.
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/otheratg/blake/methane/methane.html http://www.epa.gov/outreach/scientific.html

The Weasel
12-12-2011, 14:58
Well, folks, hate to break it to you: Raw sunflower seeds are sold for human consumption, they're a little better for you than roasted ones (more oil) and they germinate just fine. So does mixed bird seed, much of which is non-native to the AT and other long trails. So have fun "planting" it. Just don't talk about how you love the trails in their "natural" condition.

- TW

The Weasel
12-12-2011, 14:59
Well, folks, hate to break it to you: Raw sunflower seeds are sold for human consumption, they're a little better for you than roasted ones (more oil) and they germinate just fine. So does mixed&nbsp;bird seed, much of which is non-native to the AT and other long trails. So have fun "planting" it. Just don't talk about how you love the trails in their "natural" condition
- TW

The Weasel
12-12-2011, 15:00
(Sorry for duplicate posting. Not sure how it happened.)

TW

chief
12-12-2011, 20:32
TW, you're so easy. Do tell us more about trails in their "natural" condition.

sbhikes
12-12-2011, 20:42
I try to tell people it's not about whether the item will biodegrade someday, it's about how much it will degrade in the next 15 minutes for the next person who comes along. If you want to toss your apple cores or sunflower seed shells, just do it where nobody has to see it. Don't degrade the experience for the next guy.

Wise Old Owl
12-12-2011, 21:13
I am with John Gault here - this LNT has value so long as you don't shove it in other hikers faces with ex streams... I was stunned once when I was five miles in and discovered a butt on the trail - I carried it out. It disgusted me, I have spent several years with my dad on an annual clean up of the Brandywine in a canoe. One year we pulled out enough tires to fill a tractor trailer as a group. Even today the river still has tires. But I keep this to myself and my heart - I don't point fingers and when I see it I ask politely for others to change. Then I give up.

hikerboy57
12-12-2011, 21:21
agreed. Ive carried out a lot more crap than ive carried in. You can try to educate, but in the end theyll still toss their garbage aside, and we'll still carry it out.
i do not pack out my TP, i bury it..one exception was above treeline in the whites,it went well, and guiltily packed out the tp, buried the poop under a rock

Sly
12-12-2011, 21:43
No, I'm not really getting off point, there are people who call themselve environmentalists that take this stuff to the extreme, no different than the link I provided. These people are not true environmentalists, they've lost their way and are simply trying to out-do the other "environmentalists". True environmentalism is in the realm of science, not activists.

Here's an example http://www.backcountryattitude.com/lnt_beach_walking.html

And if you look at this link http://www.backcountryattitude.com/leave_no_trace.html#plan-ahead-prepare it says the following:
"Food scraps will attract insects and animals. Filter your dishwater and carry out your food scraps with the rest of your trash."

Now, come on, do you do that? Now what if everyone left their food scraps in the woods:D



Yes, you were geting off topic. Your previous link was something about Africa. Even now, neither link you provided did the author call themselves an environmentalist, so stop moving the goal posts.

As far as packing out your food scraps, I guess you've never been to Glacier NP or some other western National Parks such as Yellowstone either, because they ask too that you carry out your food scraps. They also have you sleep in one area, cook in another, and hang you're food in another. If you're too lazy to do that either expect a fine, or possibly a visit from a griz.

bamboo bob
12-12-2011, 21:56
I honestly can't think of what food scraps I might have. Like what. Leftovers? I never have leftovers. Liptons and freeze dried dinners. Plenty of days from weird resupply spots just candy bars and slim jims. How does one end up with leftovers? Like if you can't eat it all. Not likely with thruhikers. Maybe a random apple coming out of town. Is that the food scraps.

Wise Old Owl
12-12-2011, 21:57
Oh come on Sly what does it matter, are you going to change your underwear differently tomorrow because of John?... move on man. Lets all try to respect others and stop trashing values.


hmmm - the above statement - might come back and bite. Tad hippo.....:rolleyes:

hikerboy57
12-12-2011, 22:01
I honestly can't think of what food scraps I might have. Like what. Leftovers? I never have leftovers. Liptons and freeze dried dinners. Plenty of days from weird resupply spots just candy bars and slim jims. How does one end up with leftovers? Like if you can't eat it all. Not likely with thruhikers. Maybe a random apple coming out of town. Is that the food scraps.
the only thing i had a prblem with was my used coffee grinds when I brought a press with me. I felt guilty about tossing em, ended up packing out something heavier than i packed in. did someone mention starbucks via?

Sailing_Faith
12-12-2011, 22:09
the only thing i had a prblem with was my used coffee grinds when I brought a press with me. I felt guilty about tossing em, ended up packing out something heavier than i packed in. did someone mention starbucks via?

Do you snore (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78780-instant-coffee&p=1222034&viewfull=1#post1222034)?

... if so, it's all good. :)

Sly
12-12-2011, 22:55
Oh come on Sly what does it matter, are you going to change your underwear differently tomorrow because of John?... move on man. Lets all try to respect others and stop trashing values.


I must be slow. *** are you talking about?

If someone is trashing the woods because they don't know any better are you going to sit there and watch idly, or say something?

Again, for any one of us tossing shells isn't a big deal, it's the combined effect. If everyone takes their poor habits and leaves them at home, the woods and the trail experience will be a that much better.

It has nothing to do with being a "environmentalist" or preaching LNT, it's just common sense. Your garbage isn't going to compost the outdoors. Nature doesn't need the help.

Sly
12-12-2011, 22:59
Oh come on Sly what does it matter, are you going to change your underwear differently tomorrow because of John?... move on man. Lets all try to respect others and stop trashing values.<br>
I must be slow. *** are you talking about?

If someone is trashing the woods because they don't know any better are you going to sit there and watch idly, or say something? Again, for any one of us tossing shells isn't a big deal, it's the combined effect. If everyone takes their poor habits and leaves them at home, the woods and the trail experience will be a that much better.

It has nothing to do with being a "environmentalist" or preaching LNT, it's just common sense.

PS I should mention, it's spelled John Galt.

SassyWindsor
12-13-2011, 01:08
The only excuse for an able person to litter is they are LAZY, period. Leave only footprints, practice LNT. Stop being LAZY.

Mike2012
12-13-2011, 01:40
I only eat the roasted sunflower seeds so no danger of germination there. Maybe I will eat them on the trail and if I do I will deposit the shells anywhere I damn well please - which would be out of sight, off the trail or in a little sack in my food kit to pack out. Hard to say but those methods please me. I have zero problems with people doing whatever they want with their sunflower seeds shells but if they are smart they won't leave them in conspicuous piles or locations lest they suffer the wrath of people who feel they are doing it wrong. Sunflower seed shells get stuck in my teeth anyway. Seems to me there are different definitions of litter floating around out there some of which are wrong.
:D

SassyWindsor
12-13-2011, 01:45
........did someone mention starbucks via?


Recently tried the Via instant powder, has to be the best, also most expensive, instant coffee I've ever tasted. I'd like to find some cheaper, bulk pricing, on the web.

Sailing_Faith
12-13-2011, 02:29
Recently tried the Via instant powder, has to be the best, also most expensive, instant coffee I've ever tasted. I'd like to find some cheaper, bulk pricing, on the web.

Oh sure, go ahead and combine this thread with the one on instant coffee. (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?63425-Best-tasting-instant-coffee-.....I-listened-to...&highlight=coffee).. right, go ahead.... :rolleyes:

Well, at least you did not try to blend it in with this one (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78949-go-pee), (or WORSE YET this one! (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?78200-Master-Cleanse-and-Backpacking)) I would sure hate to have to pack that out too. :eek:





;)

Pedaling Fool
12-13-2011, 09:39
PS I should mention, it's spelled John Galt. Nope, it's spelled with a "U", I've been spelling it that way since I was in kindergarten. Just doing what I was taught.


I'd love to talk about litter some more, but I'm too busy now littering my own yard. This is the time of year when I go around the neighborhoods and collect leaves for my mulching/composting areas. It's incredible how quickly the worms and other organisms devour that stuff:)

sbhikes
12-13-2011, 12:17
I don't filter my dishwater because I don't wash any dishes.

My boyfriend is the type who will go up to people and tell them what they are doing is wrong. He loves to go up to people with guns and tell them stuff. I keep trying to tell him you just don't preach at people who have guns, but he won't listen. Fortunately I'm the beneficiary on his insurance policies.

JAK
12-13-2011, 13:36
You could save some weight and trouble by buying sunflower seeds already hulled.
You can get them pretty cheap in grocery stores. Good to add to oatmeal, etc.

mrclean417
12-13-2011, 14:46
You should be chewing and swallowing the hulls anyways. An excellent source of fiber.

So, in the long run, I guess you WILL be depositing them somewhere adjacent to the trail, preferably covered, unless it's the dead of winter and you're packing.

greenmtnboy
12-14-2011, 12:18
You could save some weight and trouble by buying sunflower seeds already hulled.
You can get them pretty cheap in grocery stores. Good to add to oatmeal, etc.

True, but they can go rancid like any seed, nut or legume with oils in them. They keep better in hulls which is the problem with all nuts, sometimes the hulls are virtually impervious like the walnut. An issue like this becomes a "problem" only in the extreme or if noticed.

Camping Dave
12-17-2011, 12:15
You should be chewing and swallowing the hulls anyways.

That's really dumb.

Here is what the National Sunflower Association says about that:

"Is there any harm in eating the sunflower seed shells or hulls?
http://www.sunflowernsa.com/images/dot_clear.gif
The hulls are primarily fiber. Eating a lot of the hulls could conceivably cause one to become impacted. If not chewed properly, the sharp pieces of shell could possibly puncture or attach to the linings of the esophagus or digestive tract. Medical literature confirms a number of cases in children where impaction has occurred due to eating sunflower shells. Visit the Health & Nutrition (http://www.sunflowernsa.com/health/) section of our site to find out more about the nutritional value of the sunflower seed/kernel (http://www.sunflowernsa.com/seed/)."

MuddyWaters
12-17-2011, 20:15
I think its only littering if you throw the shells where someone else will see them, it is a visual reminder that someone else was there before you.

But wait, so is the whole trail tread, and shelters, etc.

Darn, now Im confused..



The cheapest place I get VIA is from a convenience store near me. They sell the packets in a container on the counter by the cash register individually for $0.59 each, less than I can buy them anywhere else.

BlakeGrice
12-19-2011, 23:50
Not littering imo. I spit them out along a mile or so last weekend.

rocketsocks
12-20-2011, 20:25
Not littering imo. I spit them out along a mile or so last weekend.Go look in that big book,the one's with all the words and what they mean.You might change your opinion....IMO.

Miner
12-20-2011, 22:01
The biggest part of this whole debate that I still don't get is: Why do people eat sunflower seeds with shells in the first place on the trail? Considering how small the seed is in comparison to the shell to begin with, isn't having to deal with the shell seems like more work then the seed is worth (the hassle and time for the calories) while you are hiking? Then theres the whole the shell seed is larger then it needs to be (ie. deshelled) and takes up space in your pack and adds a little extra weight which I thought everyone was trying to get rid of in the first place. I truely don't get it. It's not like deshelled seeds are that expensive to begin with.

rocketsocks
12-20-2011, 23:01
could be a oral fixation thing?but thats another thread!

Wise Old Owl
12-20-2011, 23:07
wow some of us have nothing better to do.

Rasty
12-21-2011, 00:18
I think the ph level is what kills the grass, not germs!
You've never seen my lawn during a dry spell after the dogs keep going in the same area! Little brown patches everywhere! :eek:Urine is sterile until expelled, at which time it's a smorgasbord for the bacteria!

Rasty
12-21-2011, 00:25
I promise I am not being disrespectful, but have you ever tried raw sunflower seeds? Most likely sold so you can roast them youself. Raw nuts a not very good tasting in general.
Well, folks, hate to break it to you: Raw sunflower seeds are sold for human consumption, they're a little better for you than roasted ones (more oil) and they germinate just fine. So does mixed*bird seed, much of which is non-native to the AT and other long trails. So have fun "planting" it. Just don't talk about how you love the trails in their "natural" condition- TW

Pony
12-21-2011, 01:29
Raw nuts a not very good tasting in general.

No kidding. I found a 1 lb bag of raw almonds in a hiker box. Ate a couple and carried them to the next town and dropped them in another hiker box. Should've just chucked em into the woods and saved myself a pound.

leaftye
12-21-2011, 01:45
I think the ph level is what kills the grass, not germs!

Much more likely that the salt would be to blame.

Rasty
12-21-2011, 02:37
Much more likely that the salt would be to blame.I looked it up. It is an overload of nitrogen in the dog urine. The same as over fertalizing the lawn.

MikeGoingToMaine
12-21-2011, 14:04
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

bigmac_in
12-21-2011, 14:11
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.


You'll find out quickly - NO.

A large number of backpackers are just pigs. Which is a good reason to avoid shelters. But that is a whole other argument . . .

Rain Man
12-21-2011, 14:19
Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

Depends on what you do with the trash from same. Throw it on the ground on the trail or around shelters, instead of in trash cans? You might get a word or two, yes. I've seen it happen. If not anything said, possibly a glare and/or comments in a shelter register.

Just don't be a litter bug and you won't have a single problem for eating (or smoking for that matter, so long as not in a shelter with anyone).

Have a great hike! And let others have the same.

Rain:sunMan

.

4eyedbuzzard
12-21-2011, 14:25
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

No, only a few get all worked up about it. Burn your cig butts and other paper trash if there's a campfire, and/or just pack out your other garbage and you'll be fine. Shells (of almost any kind of nut) make good tinder (oil in husk) if you want to pocket them for later. Some people can suck the fun out of everything including hiking / camping.

ChinMusic
12-21-2011, 14:51
I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

Not everyone and certainly not those I care a lick about........

My solution: Don't engage them, don't encourage them, and most importantly, ignore em.

rocketsocks
12-21-2011, 16:32
It's really not that hard,take what you brought,it feels good to pick up a little trash that you did'nt generate try it you'll like it.

Ender
12-21-2011, 17:43
I've never seen anyone freak out about seeds or shells on the trail. Organic food matter is pretty much ignored by hikers (or eaten if it looks yummy enough), unless it's something gross put in an obvious place.

I have seen hikers freak out about discarded cig butts.

sbhikes
12-21-2011, 20:17
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

For eating and smoking no, but if you toss your shells and butts I certainly would shun you. You need not worry, though, because I'm not hiking the AT next year. If/when I ever do, if I see a lot of butts and sunflower shells, I'll know who to blame.

Wise Old Owl
12-21-2011, 20:53
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

Not a chance in hell - its the INTERNET. - The same folks are social and fun in public.... More fun than hanging with Ron White.....in public.

Sly
12-21-2011, 20:54
I've never seen anyone freak out about seeds or shells on the trail. Organic food matter is pretty much ignored by hikers (or eaten if it looks yummy enough), unless it's something gross put in an obvious place.

I have seen hikers freak out about discarded cig butts.

I'm a smoker and freak about discarded butts.

Would I care if someone threw their shells in the woods? No. Would I care if there was a pile on the trail, or at a shelter, or even in the fire pit? Most likely yes.

Sly
12-21-2011, 20:56
Don't engage them, don't encourage them, and most importantly, ignore em.

Yeah, don't encourage them by tossing your trash around like you own the place.

Wise Old Owl
12-21-2011, 20:59
Come on you all read about fictional Katz in "Walk in the Woods" and he littered his gear all over the place... not one of you got this bent out of shape about it..... oh wait.... yea that was fiction - he really didn't hike the entire trail.


Can I borrow a leash?

Camping Dave
12-21-2011, 21:36
I'm a smoker and freak about discarded butts.

Would I care if someone threw their shells in the woods? No. Would I care if there was a pile on the trail, or at a shelter, or even in the fire pit? Most likely yes.

And yet smokers smoke at a shelters and don't care that they pollute the air for everyone else. Sunflower seeds are easy to ignore. Being within a 100' of a smoker in the woods. Nasty.

rocketsocks
12-21-2011, 21:47
depends on what there smok'in

Sly
12-21-2011, 22:06
And yet smokers smoke at a shelters and don't care that they pollute the air for everyone else. Sunflower seeds are easy to ignore. Being within a 100' of a smoker in the woods. Nasty.

I already said some smokers are inconsiderate, but this thread is about littering. That cigarette smoke causes air pollution is a stretch, much like farting in public causes air pollution

Sly
12-21-2011, 22:08
Come on you all read about fictional Katz in "Walk in the Woods" and he littered his gear all over the place... not one of you got this bent out of shape about it..... oh wait....

Yeah, oh wait. Katz was a psuedonym but wasn't fictional, whether Bryson hiked the entire trail or not doesn't matter, most don't like the trail littered with trash.

Wise Old Owl
12-21-2011, 22:15
Yea I stand corrected - thanks Sly - hay pass the Sunflower Gorp... Thanks.

Rasty
12-21-2011, 22:37
I already said some smokers are inconsiderate, but this thread is about littering. That cigarette smoke causes air pollution is a stretch, much like farting in public causes air pollutionreally depends on the fart!

Sly
12-21-2011, 23:29
Yea I stand corrected - thanks Sly - hay pass the Sunflower Gorp... Thanks.

No problem.

One year all the leftover trash on the trail was making me ill tempered. At the Plumorchard shelter, I was burning some jeans and socks, when the ridge runner came by asked what I was doing. I told him I was sick of all the clothes and cotton socks. He started explaining LNT and what would be left in the firepits, etc.. I think he thought they were mine and said he would have carried them out.

Anyway, a pair of socking wet jeans weighs about ten lbs and there's no way I was carrying them to NC. Since any area around a fire pit is sterile earth, it's not high on my priority list. I thought I was doing the ridge runner a favor. What was left was a small metal zipper, I packed out the next morning.

Kookork
12-21-2011, 23:54
In 2/3 of the all Trails that I have hiked here in Canada the only litter that I've found has been Cigarette buts. Especially these new Captain Black like Cigars that have a Purely plastic Buts. They will almost never disintegrate.

Camping Dave
12-22-2011, 13:25
That cigarette smoke causes air pollution is a stretch

That's something only an inconsiderate smoker would say. Your smoke is more annoying that the OP's husks.

Lone Wolf
12-22-2011, 13:33
That's something only an inconsiderate smoker would say. Your smoke is more annoying that the OP's husks.11 years ago i was in a shelter in the smokys with 9 others. it was pouring rain. cold. early afternoon. 6 of them were smokining. i asked if they would mind going outside. i got angry looks and a "no". i got up in the person'sface anddamn near punched him but cussed him out instead then hiked on to next shelter and tented in the rain. most smokes suck

Rain Man
12-22-2011, 15:18
That's something only an inconsiderate smoker would say. Your smoke is more annoying that the OP's husks.

Right you are. Annoying AND dangerous to boot. Second-hand smoke and chemical-laced butts are both dangerous.


11 years ago i was in a shelter in the smokys with 9 others. it was pouring rain. cold. early afternoon. 6 of them were smokining. i asked if they would mind going outside. i got angry looks and a "no". i got up in the person'sface anddamn near punched him but cussed him out instead ....

Good for you!

Thankfully, the laws are catching up with the science of the dangers of second-hand smoke (not to mention the rudeness of some smokers). It's truly a breath of fresh air to go out to eat in a restaurant these days, compared to when smokers had their way and inflicted their smoke on everyone and anyone.

Rain Man

.

ChinMusic
12-22-2011, 16:56
that's something only an inconsiderate smoker would say. Your smoke is more annoying that the op's husks.

this!!!!!!

hikerboy57
12-22-2011, 19:59
i smoke, but i do it away from the shelter and ive packed out every butt i ever brought. i agree that to a non smoker, its an intrusion, and to a former smoker, its an out and out sin!
i smoke non tobacco products as well, which ive offered to thrus when we've met. some have joined me, some havent. i just think its a simple matter of courtesy, like using a cell phone, and being respectful of others' experience.i dont smoke sunflower seeds.

Wise Old Owl
12-22-2011, 20:17
11 years ago i was in a shelter in the smokys with 9 others. it was pouring rain. cold. early afternoon. 6 of them were smokining. i asked if they would mind going outside. i got angry looks and a "no". i got up in the person'sface anddamn near punched him but cussed him out instead then hiked on to next shelter and tented in the rain. most smokes suck

Well Good for you - but as a non smoker keep in mind "stuff" goes full circle ROUND here... Tommorrow - your can of beer might be "***? step out side.... " Honest I really do not care - and John Stossel recently piss & pooed on second hand smoke - because second hand smoke doesn't hold smoky air to the science.


Just the messenger.

Woo

10-K
12-22-2011, 20:23
If you want to find trash hike a trail shared with horses.

Wise Old Owl
12-22-2011, 20:36
Yea I do frequently with REALLY RICH Six figure folk....nah they don't do that.... prove it.

Lone Wolf
12-22-2011, 20:50
Well Good for you - but as a non smoker keep in mind "stuff" goes full circle ROUND here... Tommorrow - your can of beer might be "***? step out side.... " Honest I really do not care - and John Stossel recently piss & pooed on second hand smoke - because second hand smoke doesn't hold smoky air to the science.


Just the messenger.

Woohuh? whatever.

Pony
12-23-2011, 01:27
Wow this thread is... amazing?

Are people going to yell and preach to me for eating sunflower seeds, smoking, etc while on the trail?

I am serious, this will be my first thruhike and I would like to know if everyone takes LNT to the extreme like this.

A few years back there was a person on this site that was horribly offended by smoke of any kind. They rambled incessantly about how if someone lit up a smoke near them, or god forbid, and other smokable substance she would freak out on them. First day on the trail I rolled into Stover Creek shelter and this person was there. Nearly everyone at the shelter was smoking things. Not a peep out of her. Most people have huge huevos sitting behind a keyboard, but are afraid to back it up in person.

I've only had one person get offended by my smoking on the trail. Her husband instructed me to make sure I was downwind when I lit my cig, because she was deathly allergic to smoke. I had no problem with that and did as he asked. It was interesting to me though that as I stood about 50' downwind of her smoking, she gave me a horrible scowl as she sat about two feet in front of a campfire completely shrouded in smoke. Found out later that she was an ex smoker. Go figure.

You are more likely to have someone get offended by the gear you choose to carry or the fact that you sleep in til 10 o'clock before they will ever say anything to you about smoking or discarding sunflower seeds.

waasj
12-23-2011, 09:17
I agree, as ling as they are spread out and not in piles along the way, they will be gone in a season or so.

lutefisk
12-23-2011, 13:39
I agree, as ling as they are spread out and not in piles along the way, they will be gone in a season or so.

Sunflower shells or smokers?

Sly
12-23-2011, 14:48
That's something only an inconsiderate smoker would say. Your smoke is more annoying that the OP's husks.

No that's what someone that knows the definition of "pollution" would say. :rolleyes: If I'm outside a shelter, or on the trail, I can guarantee my smoking won't pollute your air.

Colter
12-23-2011, 14:49
I agree, as ling as they are spread out and not in piles along the way, they will be gone in a season or so.

Snickers wrappers, banana peels and apple cores will be gone after while too.

Sunflower seed shells are obviously an issue if it's gone on for this many pages. Even the OPs kids recognized that. No, a few shells won't kill anyone, neither will a few cans, as people used to tell me when they threw those on the ground. Writing on the shelter walls doesn't actually hurt anyone, does it, yet it matters to most of us.

You can't hike the AT without leaving a few tracks on the trail. You can have a fantastic hike without scattering any trash on the trail. If a sunflower shells don't matter, pistachio shells don't matter. If they don't matter, a few banana peels won't matter. It's a matter of attitude.

Our national roadways are dramatically cleaner than they used to be because people have learned to be considerate: don't throw any trash out the window. It's completely unnecessary. We shouldn't throw any trash along the trails, even tiny wrappers or shells, for the very same reasons, mainly to be considerate to other people.

Sly
12-23-2011, 14:58
Well asid Colter.

ChinMusic
12-23-2011, 15:05
Writing on the shelter walls doesn't actually hurt anyone, does it, yet it matters to most of us.



Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.

And Sly - If I can smell your smoke you are having a major affect on my enjoyment of the outdoors. I rate such an offense VERY high on my list.

Colter
12-23-2011, 15:09
Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.


And that's all up to you. But an individual shouldn't write on public property or strew trash on public property just because they enjoy it or don't care.

hikerboy57
12-23-2011, 15:11
Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.

And Sly - If I can smell your smoke you are having a major affect on my enjoyment of the outdoors. I rate such an offense VERY high on my list.so defacing the shelter is ok(you can put graffiti in the register), but the smell of smoke is offensive?I smoke away from the shelter unless everyone eelse is smoking, and if someone told me they were offended, Id simply move farther away.and dont start about second hand smoke in the woods. its nonsense, unless someone is breathing it right into your face.

Sly
12-23-2011, 15:21
Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.

And Sly - If I can smell your smoke you are having a major affect on my enjoyment of the outdoors. I rate such an offense VERY high on my list.

Really? Defacing public property is against the law and you're OK with it.

I doubt you'll ever smell my smoke so try not to get into a dither and all bent out of shape beforehand.

Pedaling Fool
12-23-2011, 16:10
Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.

And Sly - If I can smell your smoke you are having a major affect on my enjoyment of the outdoors. I rate such an offense VERY high on my list.Oh, gee whiz guys:rolleyes: Did you see his first four words?


Yes it may be wrong, but really do any of y'all care:rolleyes: If you do, damn, I feel sorry for you because it probably doesn't take much to start you fretting over stuff. I can only imagine how you'll handle the really big issues in life:)

ChinMusic
12-23-2011, 16:12
Really? Defacing public property is against the law and you're OK with it. I doubt you'll ever smell my smoke so try not to get into a dither and all bent out of shape beforehand.Correct. Graffiti in shelters adds to my enjoyment, I NEVER add to it. Smelling cig smoke ruins all enjoyment.

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 16:47
Most? Really?

I do not participate but I do enjoy killing some time reading the graffiti on shelter walls. I do NOT equate that with graffiti on signs or trees.

And Sly - If I can smell your smoke you are having a major affect on my enjoyment of the outdoors. I rate such an offense VERY high on my list.i'm with you. shelters are urban areas. graffiti and garbage don't bother me at them. let the sheeple have them. yeah and smokers are totally offensive

Sly
12-23-2011, 17:08
Urban areas? Besides graffiti and garbage being a blight in some cities, Whiteblaze needs a handy dictionary.

Sly
12-23-2011, 17:12
I can imagine how LW would feel if hikers started writing on all the walls of the Place along with leaving their garbage and peanuts shells every where. That he doesn't see the similarities is pretty sad.

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 17:19
I can imagine how LW would feel if hikers started writing on all the walls of the Place along with leaving their garbage and peanuts shells every where. That he doesn't see the difference is pretty sad.lighten up. they do write on the bunks, scratch their names and dope references with knives and most certainly leave garbage and trash in and around the Place on a regular basis. so your point?

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 17:22
Urban areas? Besides graffiti and garbage being a blight in some cities, Whiteblaze needs a handy dictionary.figure of speech. i don't expect you to get it

Colter
12-23-2011, 17:22
lighten up. they do write on the bunks, scratch their names and dope references with knives and most certainly leave garbage and trash in and around the Place on a regular basis. so your point?

His point is self evident. Respect for property that doesn't belong to you.

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 17:23
lighten up. they do write on the bunks, scratch their names and dope references with knives and most certainly leave garbage and trash in and around the Place on a regular basis. so your point? i could care less about the Place. i'm just an enforcer of rules. hopefully it won't be open this coming season

hikerboy57
12-23-2011, 17:27
i'm with you. shelters are urban areas. graffiti and garbage don't bother me at them. let the sheeple have them. yeah and smokers are totally offensivei did a lot of drugs in my youth and fortunately, survived that youth. I quit the coke and ludes when i met my wife, quit drinking after my divorce(im sober 15 years), and ive quit smoking so many times i dont think you can call it quitting anymore.its the one monkey i havent been able to dislodge from my back. I dont smoke when im on the trail except for one in the morning, maybe a few at night. Id like to be called an ex smoker and im still working on it.
but i still dont understand this almost evangelical antismoking zeal against smokers. like everything else, there are good people and bad people.its an addiction, and one thats been quite difficult for me to quit. would you say the same to a recovering alcoholic?

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 17:30
would you say the same to a recovering alcoholic?yup. if he/she was in my space being loud, obnoxious, puking, etc.

Sly
12-23-2011, 17:43
lighten up. ... so your point?

Lighten up?

You're saying it's OK to trash a shelter but not the Place where you happen to try and enforce the rules. I'm not sure why, but a lot of people here respect your opinion. You're sending mixed messages which isn't the best for the trail. Being a national treasure we all share in the ownership and well being of the trail. You certainly wouldn't allow such behavior at your home.

Live the golden rule and try to be a little more consistent.

Lone Wolf
12-23-2011, 17:47
Lighten up?

You're saying it's OK to trash a shelter but not the Place where you happen to try and enforce the rules. I'm not sure why, but a lot of people here respect your opinion. You're sending mixed messages which isn't the best for the trail. Being a national treasure we all share in the ownership and well being of the trail. You certainly wouldn't allow such behavior at your home.

Live the golden rule and try to be a little more consistent. i never said it was OK to trash a shelter. never said that. but they get trashed. always have, always will. it's the nature of buildings in the woods. nothin you or i can do about it. the place gets trashed. nothing i can do about it. but the caretaker can and will close it.

hikerboy57
12-23-2011, 17:59
yup. if he/she was in my space being loud, obnoxious, puking, etc.so all smokers are loud and obnoxious too?come on LW, if im being respectful , whats the problem? i cant understand how people can become so passionate , like smoking was devil worship oir something.for me its a sickness i cant seem to completely shake. ive triedeverything from acupuncture, hypnosis, pills, those stupid water vapor cigareettes, cold turkey, been off for as long as a year and like a siren, it keeps calling to me.
but really, lighten up.I promise i wont smoke near you, or any othr who finds it "offensive"

hikerboy57
12-23-2011, 17:59
do sunflower seeds constitute littering?

rocketsocks
12-23-2011, 18:10
Smart @s:rolleyes:;)

TD55
12-23-2011, 19:12
do sunflower seeds constitute littering?

It appears that leaving shell husks on the ground by humans may constitute littering, however, I am not sure if it constitutes littering if a bird does the same.

HIKERJEN
12-23-2011, 19:23
so all smokers are loud and obnoxious too?come on LW, if im being respectful , whats the problem? i cant understand how people can become so passionate , like smoking was devil worship oir something.for me its a sickness i cant seem to completely shake. ive triedeverything from acupuncture, hypnosis, pills, those stupid water vapor cigareettes, cold turkey, been off for as long as a year and like a siren, it keeps calling to me.
but really, lighten up.I promise i wont smoke near you, or any othr who finds it "offensive"

I think his point, which I would agree with, is that non-smokers don't want to be subjected to smelling the foul smoke from someone's cigarette. I don't care if people smoke, as long as I don't have to smell it. Just like I don't care if people want to drink/and or get drunk, as long as I don't have to put up with their obnoxious behavior.

ChinMusic
12-23-2011, 19:58
so all smokers are loud and obnoxious too?
Only if they exhale anywhere near me.

Pedaling Fool
12-24-2011, 10:56
Speaking of litter....Has anyone ever looked at their trash and wonder what happens to it over time? When I look at my trash all I see is non-recyclable plastic, because all the recyclable plastic, metals, glass goes in the black bin and all the paper goes in the green bin. And since I compost the rest of the paper material and food waste goes in the compost pile. So all that's left is non-recyclable plastic, it's actually really neat looking, as far as trash goes, meaning neat as not stinky like most trash.

But I can't help to think what happens to it overtime. It does breakdown, granted it takes a very long, long time, but what's the result? Could maybe it be a fuel source eons down the road or just some useless sludge, or highly fertile mix or ....

Dances with Mice
12-24-2011, 11:44
But I can't help to think what happens to it overtime. It does breakdown, granted it takes a very long, long time, but what's the result? Could maybe it be a fuel source eons down the road or just some useless sludge, or highly fertile mix or ....I'm kinda sorta, way way off to the side, involved in life cycle management of plastics since my employer, Mega Huge International Corporation, makes plastic disposable products and we're all environmentally conscious and stuff. But I digress from this digression.

It's complicated but in general UV light degrades them pretty fast. Mr. Sunshine is not Mr. Plastic's friend like Mister Iron doesn't get along with Mister Oxygen but for different reasons.

Landfills, away from sunlight and oxygen, are great for long term plastic and metal storage. Glass and ceramics will be around forever.

Really counter-intuitive but the best way to get rid of plastic is to throw it on the side of the road in Florida where the sunlight will kill it and roadside mowers will grind it up. Best for making plastic disappear in a couple years, not best in so many other ways. But then what the hell, it's Florida.

Rain Man
12-24-2011, 12:16
I have zero tolerance for smokers and I plan to explain it to anyone who wants to discuss it during my 2013 thruhike as I will be armed and gun beats cigs.

Another gun nut getting backbone from the end of a barrel, willing to carry illegally? GEEZ! Will you all give the rest of us a break with the threats to litter on purpose for spite, threats to smoke no matter what or who or where, threats against those who disagree (legally) with anything, anywhere?! Scared BULLIES are not appreciated and have problems.

Rain Man

.

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 12:22
Speaking of litter....Has anyone ever looked at their trash and wonder what happens to it over time? When I look at my trash all I see is non-recyclable plastic, because all the recyclable plastic, metals, glass goes in the black bin and all the paper goes in the green bin. And since I compost the rest of the paper material and food waste goes in the compost pile. So all that's left is non-recyclable plastic, it's actually really neat looking, as far as trash goes, meaning neat as not stinky like most trash.

But I can't help to think what happens to it overtime. It does breakdown, granted it takes a very long, long time, but what's the result? Could maybe it be a fuel source eons down the road or just some useless sludge, or highly fertile mix or ....My fleese vest 85% recycled plastic,10%bamboo,3%disgarded sun flower seeds,1%ciggy butts,0.99%pop tarts,0.01%who knows. It's the latter that worries me?

Slo-go'en
12-24-2011, 13:05
The smokers who litter are the tourists out for a day hike. It's not often you see butts more than a 1/2 mile from a road. If I start to see butts, I know I'm getting close to a road.

Back when I used to smoke, (which was not long ago), I smoked a pipe. No litter and a lot cheaper and less bulk then filter cigarettes. I aslo found that few people objected to pipe smoke (and I am talking tobbaco here) and many said they enjoyed the smell. Reminded them of a grandfather or uncle.

And as was pointed out in a earlier post in this thread, it is very ironic that those who vocually object to tobbaco smoke have no problem sitting in a cloud of camp fire smoke, which has to be a lot worse for you due to all the particulate matter in it.

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 13:40
Speaking of litter....Has anyone ever looked at their trash and wonder what happens to it over time? When I look at my trash all I see is non-recyclable plastic, because all the recyclable plastic, metals, glass goes in the black bin and all the paper goes in the green bin. And since I compost the rest of the paper material and food waste goes in the compost pile. So all that's left is non-recyclable plastic, it's actually really neat looking, as far as trash goes, meaning neat as not stinky like most trash.

But I can't help to think what happens to it overtime. It does breakdown, granted it takes a very long, long time, but what's the result? Could maybe it be a fuel source eons down the road or just some useless sludge, or highly fertile mix or ....

Been watching too much CNN John? The average tent pitched in the spring will breakdown with large solar holes by the end of summer. Some of the plastic that is used to bottle soda's is made from byproducts of Corn - not Petroleum. Paper is full of acid, hence we can't use it for photo's in frames etc. If it bothers you that much melt the bottles into a hocky puck and add it to the box for the shopping bags. We even have a in town recyclers just for the two liter bottles here in West Chester.

Thread Swerve?

atmilkman
12-24-2011, 14:00
Halt! Put your hands up. Drop that cigarette. No. Pick that cigarette up. Pick up those sunflower seed husks while your at it. Now, move slowly over to the trail. Now march your ass down to the nearest town and dispose of that crap properly. Don't ever, ever let me see you violating the HMHDI regulations again. Or your gonna get the business end of my heater.

ChrisJackson
12-24-2011, 14:15
Please do not fart in my direction. Zero tolerance I have with that. Leaves a nasty lasting trace in my memory. Also, do not cook meat products in my presence. As a vegetarian I find it very offensive and I don't want that odor on my gear. And no talking about religion- as an Atheist it bores me to tears. Thanks in advance. If we all follow these rules we will have a great time!

ChrisJackson
12-24-2011, 14:19
Please do not fart in my direction. Zero tolerance I have with that. Leaves a nasty lasting trace in my memory. Also, do not cook meat products in my presence. As a vegetarian I find it very offensive and I don't want that odor on my gear. And no talking about religion- as an Atheist it bores me to tears. Thanks in advance. If we all follow these rules we will have a great time!

This is sarcasm of course. For the cig, wee, and pipe tangent.

hikerboy57
12-24-2011, 14:19
Please do not fart in my direction. Zero tolerance I have with that. Leaves a nasty lasting trace in my memory. Also, do not cook meat products in my presence. As a vegetarian I find it very offensive and I don't want that odor on my gear. And no talking about religion- as an Atheist it bores me to tears. Thanks in advance. If we all follow these rules we will have a great time!
and please use smiley faces and lols for those with no sense of humor.:rolleyes:

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 15:44
Its amazing how a husk of Sunflower can cause such fungal growth on the Internet.

kanga
12-24-2011, 15:48
as a plant science enthusiast, i would kindly ask you not to insult fungi in such a way.

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 15:52
You like fungus? aaaawww shucks.....wana share?

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 16:06
What's another name for a happy mushroom.......................a fungi

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 16:06
****aki happens

kanga
12-24-2011, 16:09
hahaha! your ****ake got censored!

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 16:16
I know what's up with that....ben happen'in alot lately....It must be me.

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 16:20
More fungus.....
Shiltake - see works for me

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 16:22
Little latitude on the thread please. 7 words you can't spell on the net. ----/4444/####/Feliz navidad/&&&&/!!!!!!!/and medicare.

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 16:28
HeHehe... "he said Medicare" Bob on WB - What does Rocket Socks win today? Behind door number one we have Bird seed Bob! oh its Gormet Sunflower seeds! Good thing, moderators don't care for Bird seed! Don't spill it... it's worth something..... Let's trade..... for door number.....

atmilkman
12-24-2011, 16:34
I know what's up with that....ben happen'in alot lately....It must be me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEphsAOvBw8&feature=related

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 16:59
HeHehe... "he said Medicare" Bob on WB - What does Rocket Socks win today? Behind door number one we have Bird seed Bob! oh its Gormet Sunflower seeds! Good thing, moderators don't care for Bird seed! Don't spill it... it's worth something..... Let's trade..... for door number.....No deal bob,I'm going for both show cases

rocketsocks
12-24-2011, 17:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEphsAOvBw8&feature=relatedAh yes ,my brother from another mother.

corialice81
12-24-2011, 20:17
sorry guys... FUNGI are NOT PLANTS.... I really really tried to resist... Fungi are actually more closely related to animals than plants. Okay...sorry about that...merry christmas!

kanga
12-24-2011, 21:20
Who said fungi were plants?

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 21:22
I'm stumped... someone mentioned smoking plants and fungi?

corialice81
12-24-2011, 21:26
as a plant science enthusiast, i would kindly ask you not to insult fungi in such a way.

here with plant science.

kanga
12-24-2011, 21:37
That just says I'm a plant science enthusiast?As such, for the most part, fungi is my enemy. However, even I would not insult fungi but comparing them to some of the lovely posters on this site.

corialice81
12-24-2011, 21:42
That just says I'm a plant science enthusiast?As such, for the most part, fungi is my enemy. However, even I would not insult fungi but comparing them to some of the lovely posters on this site.

And this is why I love you, Kanga. I'm sorry for the confusion. I'll shut up now. Can't wait to see you at Soruck!

kanga
12-24-2011, 21:48
Heehee *snark* aaand,...Holy crap! You're coming to soruck? I can't wait!!

Wise Old Owl
12-24-2011, 22:06
Kanga you inhale badly "Snark"?

Pedaling Fool
01-07-2012, 20:01
I'm kinda sorta, way way off to the side, involved in life cycle management of plastics since my employer, Mega Huge International Corporation, makes plastic disposable products and we're all environmentally conscious and stuff. But I digress from this digression.

It's complicated but in general UV light degrades them pretty fast. Mr. Sunshine is not Mr. Plastic's friend like Mister Iron doesn't get along with Mister Oxygen but for different reasons.

Landfills, away from sunlight and oxygen, are great for long term plastic and metal storage. Glass and ceramics will be around forever.

Really counter-intuitive but the best way to get rid of plastic is to throw it on the side of the road in Florida where the sunlight will kill it and roadside mowers will grind it up. Best for making plastic disappear in a couple years, not best in so many other ways. But then what the hell, it's Florida.I was working in the garden today and a plastic bag was blown into my yard, which I don't mind because I put them in my recycling bin and I feel like I've done something...anyway...:D

It was the type that most grocery stores use -- (HDPE #2), but I noticed it was very frail and thin and easily torn, more paper-like than plastic. And I thought of what you said. So can you explain, in layman's terms, what is happening? I would imagine that the sun's rays are causing certain molecules to break apart, but which ones and what's the gas (I would guess) being given off when this happens (or whatever's happening?)

Tinker
01-07-2012, 20:13
sorry guys... FUNGI are NOT PLANTS.... I really really tried to resist... Fungi are actually more closely related to animals than plants. Okay...sorry about that...merry christmas!

They are saprophytes, they eat dead and decaying things.