Twelve Ways To Be Banned by Wingfoot From Trailplace.com

[Will Moody]

12. Recommend the ALDHA AT Companion.

11. Suggest he switch to decaf.

10. Mention you have other AT gods before him.

9. Mention his 2000 Companion didn’t ship until the summer of 2000 - months after customers started their thru-hikes.

8. Point out that even with all his rationalizations, he’s still just a canine bigot.

7. Take the name of your AT God in jest, for Wingfoot will not leave him unbanned who takes his name in jest.

6. Mention the IRS doesn’t allow 803(c)(3) nonprofits to endorse political candidates.

5. Reveal that the White Blaze site has way less hot air and way more members.

4. Point out that if you switch the “W” and “F” in Wingfoot it spells “Fing Woot” - Fing is German for “caught” and Woot, as an acronym, means the Waste of Our Time

3. Suggest he change his name to “Wingnut”.

2. Register with the user name Gerald Allen (You’ll have to Google it)



And the number one way to be banned by Wingfoot….

1. Suggest Wingfoot is really a nom de guerre for Jack Tarlin aka Baltimore Jack.

[RITBlake]

honestly.....get a life

You despise wingfoot so much but you're willing to spend signifigant time putting together soemething like this.

its pathetic. really.

act your age.

[bulldog49]

honestly.....get a life

You despise wingfoot so much but you're willing to spend signifigant time putting together soemething like this.

its pathetic. really.

act your age.

Lighten up Francis. I thought is was pretty funny, and true. It's good to mock folks who take themselves too seriously.

[RITBlake]

Lighten up Francis. I thought is was pretty funny, and true. It's good to mock folks who take themselves too seriously.
it seemed pretty lame to me. I hear this crap about WF all the time and it usually goes back to something he did or said on HIS website.

He has invested capital in to a website which he runs. He is the owner of this property. He has every right to control the content, the direction and the rules of the site. Why should he invest with his own personal money in something that he can't support?

If you owned a store, and you thought someone was causing trouble, you would have every right to kick them out.

But for some reason, he is rediculed for it.

Maybe he is opinionated, maybe he DOES take himself to seriously. But since his character is so widely discussed and 'understood' by the hiking community, you should know exactly what you're getting in to if you go to his site. Yet plenty of people go there, say something that bothers the admin, and they get kicked out and then b*tch and moan and redicule WF. I see nothing wrong with that at all. If you don't like it, try starting your own hiking community and see if you can handle it.

And you've found your way to Whiteblaze. I mean its not like there arn't any other hiking forums out there. There are certainly better ones then TP. IMO Whiteblaze is a better source for hiking information ANYWAY, so why are you wasting your time obsessing over another man and his beliefs. He is just a man, he is just as entitled to his opinions and beliefs as you and I.

I can't believe I'm writing this about grown adults but it is pretty sad. Give it a rest cretins.

[UCONNMike]

That a boy Blake, I'm with you.

[The Weasel]

Dan's pretty serious, and always has been. But I rather think that some of them he'd smile at.

But the best one was left off the list:

#1A: Accuse Dan of being a Bushie!

The Weasel

[bulldog49]

People have the 'right" to do a lot of things, including making an ass of themselves. That doesn't mean they should do it or not be called on it when they do. Wing Foot sets himself up for this kind of ridicule and fully deserves it.

Seems pretty stupid to host a forum but not allow an open discussion of ideas and opinions. He remids me of the Soup Nazi on Seinfield, if you say the wrong thing, "no soup for you". Funny stuff.

[attroll]

We have to have Trailplace. It gives us one thing we all agree on and bitch about.

[One Leg]

Awesome post-!

[cupcake]

and i do still carry his book (or at least parts of it) when i hike :)

[oruoja]

I thought it was pretty funny myself, but then again maybe it's an age thing. A good many of us over 40 types missed out on the indoctrination of correctness which has provided so much enlightenment. I'm sure in the not too distant future we will be able to enjoin in a class action against those who shaped our interests and tastes. Oh well, just for the record I have not been banned from WF and find some good information from his site on occassion. I guess humor as much as anything in life goes with HYOH.

[Jack Tarlin]

What a pity that Will's first post here serves only to bash another website.

Note to Troll: We are NOT all in agreement about this issue. Most of us have doubts or questions about how Trailplace.com is administered and run, but in the final analysis, most of us simply don't care. But to say that we agree about bitching and moaning about this website is simply not true; most of us have far more important things to occupy our time.

Note to Will: Welcome to Whiteblaze and I hope you stick around, but please be aware that the Wingfoot bashing has gone on for years, and the majority of folks here are sick and tired of it. It's a private website, run by a private individual, who has a bunch of very clearly defined rules and regulations if you want to take part. If you don't follow the rules, you go. If the rules are too much for you, you go elsewhere. What's the big deal?

[smokymtnsteve]

greetings Indrek...smokyred is driving back to AK right now called in from Whitecourt Alberta,,,says he is looking for a another bunch of girls to bring by your house this year :eek: ,,,don't know what I'm gonna do about that boy.

hope U are well.

[Frosty]

It seems pretty simple to me.

Wingfoot has the right to do as he does.

Some people like what he says/does and have the right to say so.

Others don't like what he says/does and have the right to say so.

I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have the right to do as he does. They just don't like what he does. That guy who is accepting money in PA has the right to accept your donations/old gear should you choose to give it. That doesn't mean that what he is doing cannot be discussed, and that two sides cannot have different opinions.

We are all allowed an opinion here. To try to stop people from expressing an opinion that differs from one's own isn't right, in my opinion, here or elsewhere. Three cheers for ATTROLL. Boo to those who try to force their views on everyone else.

If you like Wingfoot, support him. If you don't, feel free to say so. That's the beauty of this website as opposed to his.

[oruoja]

Hey Smoky! Hope your over wintering in Healy has been good. House is on the market and we hope to close NLT 31 May. I'll PM you later today with more news. Take care. P.S. Been raining down here in ANC for the past week.

[MOWGLI]

Just a reminder... Regardless of how anyone feels about Dan "Wingfoot" Bruce, and I suspect there aren't alot of fence sitters, this is a Hiking Humor thread.

[SGT Rock]

Then lets open the thread up to the top ten things that would get you banned from Whiteblaze. Lets see...

Wait, I don't think we have banned that many people yet :-?

[The Cheat]

Then lets open the thread up to the top ten things that would get you banned from Whiteblaze. Lets see...

Wait, I don't think we have banned that many people yet :-?
#10 Make jokes about other sites ad-infinitum
#9 Carry a cast-iron frying pan, but never cook in it
#8 Don't use an Ion stove
#7 Keep calling it the "Adirondack Trail"
#6 Create a wider variety of dancing bananas
#5 Set aside 2 weeks to walk the entire trail
#4 Wear cotton, and lots of it
#3 Suggest sharing the trail with dirtbikes
#2 Perform trail maintenance with a flamethrower
#1 ...

[Slimer]

hey oruoja............did you get to see the start of the Iditarod? I got a liitle dissapointed to see that NC native Charlie Boulding dropped out, but he's a tough bird nonetheless.

[TJ aka Teej]

Well, I've never been banned from T****P****, but here are a few more things that'll probably get you kicked off:
Ask him how someone can thruhike seven times, rack up "25,000" AT miles, and yet so few remember ever meeting him on the trail.
He says he's a consultant for backpacking manufactuers, ask him what gear, which manufactuers.
He says he gives backpacking seminars. Ask him where, when, and who has gone.
Ask him why he sued the ATC, and what the outcome of the lawsuit was.
Ask him if he asked for permission from the ATC or the DataBook's editor to copy the DataBook's format into his guide.
Ask him about the year he didn't produce a guidebook at all, but kept taking our checks and making excuses for months until finally admitting there was no book.
Ask him if he's ever spoken to the DataBook's editor.
Ask him why you have to make out your check to him personally, and not to "The Center For AT Studies", to order his guide book.

[Rain Man]

6. Mention the IRS doesn’t allow 803(c)(3) nonprofits to endorse political candidates.

I'm still trying to figure out what an 803(c)(3) nonprofit is!
:dance
Rain Man

.

[The Old Fhart]

Rainman, Maybe they mean 501(c)(3).

[MOWGLI]

Rainman, Maybe they mean 501(c)(3).


Either way, unless things have recently changed, Dan's enterprise is not a non-profit entity.

[JLB]

Then lets open the thread up to the top ten things that would get you banned from Whiteblaze. Lets see...

Wait, I don't think we have banned that many people yet :-?

I'm still here. :banana

[Kozmic Zian]

Either way, unless things have recently changed, Dan's enterprise is not a non-profit entity. Yea.....Bruce's biggest foiable is his lack of patience. He has no patience for anyone or anything that dosen't support his agenda. His site is a onesided, do it my way or else, situation.

So one of the items might read like this -
Saying anything negative about anything that Wingfruit subscribes to. :jump

[oldfivetango]

The man has rights to be a self absorbed left wing bigoted jerk if
that's want he wants to do.The only sad part is that he doesn't realize
that alot of us rightwinged people share some of his beliefs-just not all of them.
In the process he is missing alot of friendships and comraderie that he would have otherwise had if only he had been the least bit tolerant to opposing points of view.Yeah,before I realized what the deal was he bounced me out of his site-that's OK-i still bought his book.I think its funny that he didn't mind taking my REPUBLICAN $$$$$ one iota.The fact is this-the man puts out a pretty darn good product that is"just right" for carrying purposes-that's one of the two reasons i purchased one.
The other was to "taint" him with my blood money;made no doubt on the backs of the poor and at the expense of the environment.Oh what an evil dreaded thought,that.
Cheers to all,
Oldfivetango:bse

[walkin' wally]

#10 Make jokes about other sites ad-infinitum
#9 Carry a cast-iron frying pan, but never cook in it
#8 Don't use an Ion stove
#7 Keep calling it the "Adirondack Trail"
#6 Create a wider variety of dancing bananas
#5 Set aside 2 weeks to walk the entire trail
#4 Wear cotton, and lots of it
#3 Suggest sharing the trail with dirtbikes
#2 Perform trail maintenance with a flamethrower
#1 ...

Trail maintenance with a flame thrower?? Hmm :-? Does it weigh less than a chainsaw?? How long does it take to go through a 12 inch spruce tree?? Can I use it on spring poles?
Is it an Ion/Alcohol model or napalm? Boiling Time?

[Toolshed]

I thought it was pretty damn funny. But think I understand Blakes testiness - He's prolly sitting up there in Rochester, the crap snow dull-weather capitol of the free world. :dance

[weary]

Either way, unless things have recently changed, Dan's enterprise is not a non-profit entity.
Well, it never used to be. But it may be that his requirement that orders for his Thru Hiker Guide must have checks addressed to him, may suggest a change or a potential change.

Regardless. Wingfoot devotes his life to what he perceives to be the good of the trail. I think he has done some very useful things. And, yes, a few destructive things.

But it's his life and his income -- a very tiny income, I suspect.

I wish we could just leave the animosity behind. Support him when he is right. Ignore him when he's wrong.

If folks could have put these petty squabbles behind them five years ago, we might have won the Saddleback battle, and I wouldn't be struggling to raise the money needed to save a tiny corner of Saddleback. We could have won it all.

Weary www.matlt.org

[orangebug]

Little Bear, didn't you mention this was a Hiking Humor thread???

:-?

[MOWGLI]

Little Bear, didn't you mention this was a Hiking Humor thread???

:-?

Yeah OB. Just settin the record straight regarding the Center for AT Studies. I've got no axe to grind with WF.

[SGT Rock]

Trail maintenance with a flame thrower?? Hmm :-? Does it weigh less than a chainsaw?? How long does it take to go through a 12 inch spruce tree?? Can I use it on spring poles?
Is it an Ion/Alcohol model or napalm? Boiling Time?

www.ionstove.com

[TJ aka Teej]

Little Bear, didn't you mention this was a Hiking Humor thread???I think most people get that, OB - even Weary made a funny when he brought up the laughable idea that spamming elected officials in Maine with hundreds of emails sent by people from away would influence those officials to do something their constituants were steadfastly opposed to! Those emails undoubtedly helped Breen and the land-rightsters more than they helped the Trail. Some joke, eh?

[ARambler]

Well, I've never been banned from T****P****, but here are a few more things that'll probably get you kicked off:
Ask him how someone can thruhike seven times, rack up "25,000" AT miles, and yet so few remember ever meeting him on the trail.
He says he's a consultant for backpacking manufactuers, ask him what gear, which manufactuers.
He says he gives backpacking seminars. Ask him where, when, and who has gone.
...Ask him why you have to make out your check to him personally, and not to "The Center For AT Studies", to order his guide book.
1) I met him on the trail in 1987. Even before the Internet, many hikers were taking sides. However, it is still possible to "sit on the fence". I have better AT things to think about. (I also met Warren D on Katahdin in 1987; Not everyone could be good PA folks like Cindy Ross and me.)
2) He already had lots of endorsements, including a very expensive Sony camcorder. I thought people were jealous that he had the time, money and ability for multiple thru hikes and he was getting tremendous sponsorships as well.
3) Last year, my check to "The Center For AT Studies" cleared.

Got to stop being nice, I've forgotten my TP password, and if I get kicked off WB I'll have nothing to do but hike.

[Jack Tarlin]

*My U.S. Postal Money order was made out to the Center for A.T. Studies.

*I received my book via Priority Mail several days later.

*Checks and money orders DO NOT have to made out to "Dan Bruce" in order to clear.

*If folks have nothing better to do here than bash Mr. Bruce or anyone else in the hiking community, would it be too much to ask that they do so accurately?

[saimyoji]

...is to ask if any opinions other than his own are valid.

Thats basically what got me booted.

I've never 'bashed' Dan Bruce here, only admitted that he has complete control over his web site, more power to him. Wish that I had that much free time, skills.

The only objection I had, as I've stated on this site once before, was that I was banned without warning or explanation. But I guess with all the people he has to censor, he can't find the time to explain his actions to everyone. Hence the disclaimer before you sign up?

[Will Moody]

Seems pretty stupid to host a forum but not allow an open discussion of ideas and opinions. He remids me of the Soup Nazi on Seinfield, if you say the wrong thing, "no soup for you". Funny stuff. You captured by my point exactly. People are banned for pointing out some of the problems with his personal opinions. The more sharp-witted your argument, the more likely your banishment.

Personally, I was Wingfoot neutral for years. Now, I'm negative in light of all the banishment.

I've never met Wingfoot, but I have met several he has banned. All good people. They never “took their ball home”, because they were outplayed.

[SalParadise]

heck, I signed myself up to Trailplace recently just because Wingfoot's always being bashed here. I figure anyone who can draw so much ire must have some good qualities.

[Mountain Dew]

Wingfoot ? My fingers get eager when I see people defend Wingfoots right to say what he wants on his website, but turn around and try to hush his critics on this and other sites. Say it with me slowly... HYPOCRITS. THIS isn't his website and they have the right to say whatever they want on this site as long as ATTroll/Sgt. Rock grant them the right to do so. You understand that concept ? Wingy says what he wants on his site thus others can say what they want on this site...for the most part ! " honestly.... get a clue " :mad:

[RITBlake]

I thought it was pretty damn funny. But think I understand Blakes testiness - He's prolly sitting up there in Rochester, the crap snow dull-weather capitol of the free world. :dance
lol, yah we're in about our 7th month of winter, and just one more to go... yah!!!! Maybe I'll get to see the sun in a few weeks.

[TJ aka Teej]

*My U.S. Postal Money order was made out to the Center for A.T. Studies.

*I received my book via Priority Mail several days later.

*Checks and money orders DO NOT have to made out to "Dan Bruce" in order to clear.

*If folks have nothing better to do here than bash Mr. Bruce or anyone else in the hiking community, would it be too much to ask that they do so accurately?
http://www.trailplace.com/portal/display.php?page=hb_order_check_2005 (http://www.trailplace.com/portal/display.php?page=hb_order_check_2005)
"Checks should be made payable to Dan Bruce ...otherwise your order will be ignored!"

[flyfisher]

A professor of mine once quipped that he had always found it less painful to fire himself from a job than to wait for someone to take it into their hands to fire him.

I got banned from Wingfoot's forum by me. I just left. I never did anything to get anyone mad. I just did not feel at home.

I did the same thing at the BackpackGearLight Yahoo Forum. They were having a binge of banning a number of people I know and it seemed like the wrong direction to be taking. I left a short note saying that I would be leaving and then I left.

I find it almost never pays to make enemies. It's hard enough to keep up with friends.

[Flash Hand]

Never got banned.. just because I stopped reading there.. I think my membership still there. I registered and read for only two or three days before realizing that there is not any worthwhile readings in his website.

I see that his price for thru hiker handbook is approx 21.95, which cost more than the combined ATC data book and ALDHA thru hiker handbook. Why more? me wonder :confused:

ATtroll and staff run this whiteblaze is one of great :clap :clap

Flash Hand :jump

[SGT Rock]

This is supposed to be a joke thread y'all. :jump:

[Jaybird]

"...call him a LIBERAL!" :D

[MOWGLI]

This is supposed to be a joke thread y'all. :jump:

So, Wingfoot, a Lawyer and a Rabbi are in an elevator...

[SGT Rock]

So, Wingfoot, a Lawyer and a Rabbi are in an elevator...

And the punchline is "You mean those weren't white blazes?!?" So Wnigfoot throws himself out of the elevator... badump bump! :banana

[Peaks]

There's very little to laugh or chuckle about on this thread. Let's end it and move on.

[The Old Fhart]

Peaks-"There's very little to laugh or chuckle about on this thread. Let's end it and move on."Ditto. enough is enough.

[smokymtnsteve]

Explain that to wingnut...wingnut has ALWAYS been an oppourtunist, wingnut has the right to run his website as he sees fit as does WB...

Oh but don't talk about the Mighty wingnut,

[SGT Rock]

Yes, but it isn't funny anymore, and talking about WingFoot will never positively contribute anything to someone's hike. So for both those reasons this thread seems to be headed nowhere fast.

[Jack Tarlin]

Steve---

I can see the Alaska sojuorn hasn't helped you to read any better.

Nobody is telling people not to talk about certain matters or that they're not allowed to talk about certain subjects. And Mt. Dew, nobody's shushing anyone, either, and nobody's being hypocritical by attempting to censor anyone here. There's a big difference between telling folks what they can or can't talk about and suggesting to folks that they might want to consider BETTER things to talk about.

Do some folks want to bitch and moan because they got thrown off a website years ago and have held a grudge against its administrator ever since? Yeah, I guess some of them do. A few people seem to bring this up every two weeks, or if they don't bring it up themselves, they never fail to chip in with the same tired comments if someone else brings the matter up.

And nobody is telling these folks they can't do this here.

What some folks are saying, is that it's kind of sad that a few folks evidently have nothing better to talk about, no worthier dialogue to join, nothing valuable to contribute, nothing to teach.

Does this ceaseless discussion of Wingfoot and Trailplace add to anyone's trip planning? Does it help them with unanswered questions or problems? Does it contribute ANYTHING positive to anyone's planning and preparations? Lastly, does it contribute anything beneficial to Whiteblaze?

Honestly, it doesn't. And this endless whining and moaning about Mr. Bruce and his website must amaze some of the newcomers to Whiteblaze. It must be something of a mystery to them. If I were in their place, I'd feel the same way, and I'd probably be thinking something like:

"So a few folks got bumped off a privately owned website that everyone apparently knows has some serious rules, is administered with a heavy hand, and is a place where views and opinions that differ from the site's owner are not welcomed. All right, they broke the rules and got bumped off a site that quite frankly, is much less significant than it used to be, and has relatively little interactive traffic and even less impact and influence. Why are these folks so upset about this, and why do they spend so much time whaling this very dead horse?"

Rock is right. Threads like this one are heading nowhere fast, and in fact, are doomed from the outset. A few alledged adults are bent out of shape because they got tossed off a website that nobody really cares about anyway.

If that's the most important thing they've got to whine about, they must have very easy lives.....or very empty ones. This subject has been done to death here and elsewhere. Enough already.

[weary]

...I see that his price for thru hiker handbook is approx 21.95, which cost more than the combined ATC data book and ALDHA thru hiker handbook. Why more? me wonder :confused:
Because he uses "books on demand" a very expensive, but risk free way to publish a relatively small number of books.

It's my guess that the time a few years ago that the book was not published, was because Wingfoot couldn't raise the money to pay the printer. The next year he switched to a method where the book wasn't printed until the order was in hand.

It's an increasingly common way to publish, especially for books that are published by the author. You get to sell books without risking your money.

The Thru-Hiker Guide may cost more, but it weighs less, which even a heavy packer like myself appreciates. It also contains virtually all the information I need under one cover, and just reading it inspires a lot of fond memories, well worth the price.

Weary

[Moxie00]

I was kicked off Dan's forum in 1999. I personally replied to a comment about Boy Scouts in shelters by saying I didn't agree with the post but I could understand the other hikers point, I suggested that Wingfoot should be more tolerant of other hikers opinions and allow open discussion. That night I was informed I was history on Trailplace. "Moxie" Ga.Me2000

[smokymtnsteve]

I've been knowin wingnut long before he ever published

[smokymtnsteve]

I've been knowin wingnut long before he ever published

and I have not had the honor of being banned from his website

[Tha Wookie]

Wingfoot wrote a great book that took me all the on the AT. It was full of insightful knowledge and wisdom. I'm glad I used it.

Say what you want, hide it in a "humor" thread. That way the slander is supposed to be "funny", right?

I don't think the outright jeolousy exhibited to people who give back to the trail is a laughing matter. Just because he knows way more about the trail than 99.9% of the people on this site including myself, he is a target. Since he is strongly opinionated, people stoop easily to assaulting his character.

It's just like with Warren, when so many of these weak internet cowards were ready to hang him on the internet, but nobody acted when they saw him in person.

Like his views or not, Wingfoot does a lot of good for the trail. Maybe, if people had hiked the At or other trails multiple times, they'd understand his views. That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with him, but they do have to abide by his rules that he sets on his property (website).

The pathetic thing is that these people can't just shrug it off and go hiking, but would rather waste their time slandering someone who is doing much more than they.

Instead of walking backwards, any of us can take positive steps to get where we agree with.

Create a way not to destroy.

[weary]

I think most people get that, OB - even Weary made a funny when he brought up the laughable idea that spamming elected officials in Maine with hundreds of emails sent by people from away would influence those officials to do something their constituants were steadfastly opposed to! Those emails undoubtedly helped Breen and the land-rightsters more than they helped the Trail. Some joke, eh?
Ah. Teej. The letters went to the DEpartment of the Interior with copies to the Maine Congressional delegation. Possibly a majority of people in Rangeley (population about 2,000) opposed protecting the trail, but the majority of Mainer's who knew of the controversity I suspect were in favor.

Wingfoot's efforts have been praised by numerous people as among the best orchestrated campaign ever. Unfortunately, what proved to be legitimate worries over who would be elected in 2000 took over and Sen. Snowe worked out a deal.

You need to get out of that Boston suburb, Old Orchard Beach, and talk to real Maine people. I just wish Wingfoot would mount a similar campaign on behalf of our Maine AT land trust. I'm positive he could do a better job than my minimal efforts.

Weary www.matlt.org

[bulldog49]

This is a humor forum and the thread began with a joke about Wingfoot. It took a turn from humor when people began bashing people for poking fun at him.

For those who are tired of the subject, DON'T READ THREADS WITH WINGFOOT AS The SUBJECT. I get tired of reading about homemade alchol stoves, so I just skip over those threads instead of griping about "another thread on the subject". Some of us haven't been around that long and Wingfoot isn't old to us, shouldn't we be allowed to discuss him without being lectured about how we are somehow mentally deficient because we do? Someone mentioned we should "get a life". The same could be said to anyone who supposedly finds the subject tiresome but feels compelled to spend time reading and discussing it anyway.

[Dances with Mice]

"Moxie" Ga.Me2000

So here's a funny story: I was sectioning GA southbound in 2000 with my son and daughter and we blew into Hawk Mtn shelter early. We were going to spend the night there but it was still early so we stopped to water up and snack down, then mosey south a bit to spend the night at 3 Forks. But there was a guy from Maine named "Moxie" who came into the shelter, his first day on the Trail. He was sharing some home made jerky, moose jerky I believe. Great stuff.

Anyway, he was sitting in the shelter and had already taken off his boots but had left his pack on the picnic table. And he was chuckling that now he'd have to put his boots back on to walk across the rocky ground but I said "No prob, stay seated, I'll get it for you." And I grabbed the top handle and...

...almost pulled my arm off! It didn't move! I thought that an arm strap had drooped down and looped around the bench. So I checked. Nope, everything was clear. What was holding it down? I used both hands to pick up the pack and found the answer: Gravity! Man, that was a heavy pack.

I remember the pack, the jerky, and that he showed us the first alcohol stove I'd ever seen. Is this the same Moxie?

[Sleepy the Arab]

1. I've used his book in 1999 and 2001. Very useful and informative, and I found it better (!!) than the companion.

2. I left Trailplace before I was banned. Granted, I would have lasted quite a while, as my posting was infrequent, and tended to agree with WF on many subjects. His idiosycracies were not what caused my departure; it was the Great Meltdown of '00.

3. I believe WF gear tested Thorlo socks. How many out here have gear tested?

I know this is a hiking humor thread, but really, this endless rehashing of the man and myth named Wingfoot has become tiresome. I mean really! He's just one person. Get over it.

[max patch]

3. I believe WF gear tested Thorlo socks.

WF helped design some of the Thorlo socks back in the late 80's (possibly the early 90s). As a matter of fact on one sock, I believe it was called either the Hiker or the Backpacker, WFs picture and endorsement were prominently printed on the cardboard sleeve that held the socks.

TJ must have been wearing cotton socks back then not to have noticed this.

[steve hiker]

I find its better to sit back and light up a fattie, than argue about WF. :banana

[smokymtnsteve]

I find its better to sit back and light up a fattie, than argue about WF. :banana


WF would disagree and ban U... :datz

[TJ aka Teej]

[QUOTE=Jack Tarlin]
While WF likes to feed his readers his 'the only reason they don't like me is the way I run my website' koolade, I'm still surprised to see AT vets handing out the papercups.
Are there legit complaints about his site? If you think it's OK to ban information about certain hiker gatherings, certain books, certain hikers, certain websites, certain individuals, etc. than No there aren't legit complaints. If you think its OK to make questionable claims about yourself and ask people for donations, then NO there aren't legit complaints.
I see some people are poking around a few things on my list of questions to ask WF. Jack was shown where on WF's site he says he won't accept checks unless they're made out to Himself, otherwise they'll be "ignored." I'm glad you weren't ignored, Jack. Seems like some info on TP isn't true? Go figure. Max reminds us about the 15+ year old Thor-los, and thinks that clears up WF's claim that he currently is a gear consultant for gear manufactuers. Isn't it nice we can talk about these topics here, Max?
A few AT vets seem to be saying only pro-WF comments will be tolerated, no matter how inaccurate. Con-WF comments (and commentators) will be attacked, even if they're accurate. Sounds a lot like T****P****. But that's a good thing, right?

[orangebug]

This was a humor thread. Can you wrap your mits around the concept of humor? This bile really has no place on a humor thread.

[attroll]

Yes I agree. This was suppose to be humor. Now it has turned in to a rehashing of Wingfoot. It is getting old. We have heard the same thing said over and over again in other threads and posts on this web site. If you want to read them that just do a search of "Wingfoot". But lets let this rest. If it keeps on going much longer I will close this thread.

[SGT Rock]

Agreed. Seems like anytime someone mentions WingFoot, all we get is this sort of thing where everyone feels the right or obligation to point out why they hate him.

This is the Humor section, not the Gossip section. Geez :datz:

[JLB]

Ask him how President Kerry's term is going.

[Jack Tarlin]

Teej---

This whole topic bores me to death, Teej, but this needs to be said, and bluntl:

You have a great deal to offer the Trail community, and many of your comments here have been extremely valuable. On many occasions, I've posted here solely to thank you for sending something useful along.

That being said, it's apparent to anyone that's been here awhile that you have a serious hair across your ass about Wingfoot, and you've had this problem for years. You wrote the exact same kind of stuff years ago on the at-l mailing list, ad nauseum.

Then you found a new audience. Almost immediately after coming over here, you started in on the same tired complaints. One of the very first threads you initiated here, several years ago, was a complaint about Wingfoot and the Data Book. You've commented on him, always negatively, more times than I can count.

More than two years ago, on 15 Feb. 2003, in response to this thread you'd taken pains to introduce, Rock very politely commented that he was sick and tired of this nonsense and asked that we move on to better topics.

Nice to see how much respect people have for his wishes, in that two years later, identical posts about Wingfoot are still coming from the exact same folks.

Rock is right. It's old and tired.

And Teej, act your age. Or at least be honest. Nobody's saying that only positive Wingfoot posts will be tolerated here. Nobody is saying all anti-Wingfoot comments will be attacked. All sorts of stuff will be tolerated here, including you bleating the same tired crap you first introduced here only days after joining this website. Nobody's muzzling you, or censoring you, or controlling what you say here. You can pretty much say what you please here, and you know it. So lay off the First Amendment nonsense, OK? Nobody's telling you what you can say. They're merely saying we've heard it before, we were tired of it years ago, it sends a lousy picture to the new folks, and it's simply a lame, dead topic.

What people are actually doing, Teej, including the administrator of this site, whose reasonable and civil requests you've basically ignored for years, is not an attempt at censoring or controlling the discussion. All they are saying is that it's tired and old, it's been going on for years, the same few people are the ones who either initiate these discussions or who fan the flames to continue them, and that it's really time to move on and find worthier things to discuss.

Of course, that's what many folks politely suggested more than two years ago, and I rather doubt it's gonna have any more effect today, but fact is Teej, you knew long ago that this topic was played out, done to death, and served little purpose, yet you've harped on it for years now. Why? Tell me in your own words what purpose it serves and what you think it adds to this website.

You're capable of much better things, Teej, and it's unfortunate to see you spending so much time and energy on this subject. Malice, spite, and hatred rots the vessel that holds it. If YOU want to hold foolish childish grudges against small, petty things that happened years ago, fine. Enjoy yourself. But as you were told years ago, geez, enough already. We've heard it all before. Don't you think it's time to move on?

[TJ aka Teej]

Sarge and Rock:
Perhaps you might consider moderating the first post by a new member? I'm under the impression we often end up chippy after certain posts by one post wonders.

And there are some humorous things about TP, btw... like if you try to post "I was gathering up my gear and about to look for the next whiteblaze" it'll come out as "I was ********** up my gear and about to look for the next **********" :datz

[TJ aka Teej]

...two years later, identical posts about Wingfoot are still coming from the exact same folks.
I noticed that too, Jack. Funny how only certain posters are being told to "move on" though, y'know?

[Jack Tarlin]

Sensitive, aren't we? My, my, my.

But you failed to address one crucial point, Teej: You WERE asked to move on. You WERE informed by a very fair site administrator that your comments were unwelcome and tiresome.

And you ignored him then, and have continued to do so for years.

I'll ask again: You've probably made dozens of comments on this subject over the years, despite ample evidence that people were weary of the subject.

Other than out of malice and spite, why do you persist in this? What possible useful purpose does this serve, other than to make you feel good about yourself after this horrible, unforgiveable slight to your person----my gosh, you were tossed off an internet site! You poor abused soul!

But to answer your question, Teej, on the very few occasions over the years that I've had disagreements with this site's administrators, I've always made an effort to respect their wishes, requests, and expectations from members.

Maybe you should try it some time. You were politely asked to shove a cork in it as regards Wingfoot around 25 months ago, and you're still at it. When directly asked why you persist in it, and what good you think this discussion does, you don't have a response.

Have a nice day, hope your daily ration of bile is tasty. Enjoy it.

I'm going for a hike.

[The Old Fhart]

Dances with Mice- If you were sectioning GA southbound and met Moxie, you must also have seen me somewhere along the way. I hiked with a Moxie for a while up to Hot Springs in 2000. He was the first hiker I had met on the trail who could use the common Maine word "ohmagawd" with inflection and meaning. He told me how the local paper had done an article on him stating he was doing the whole trail. He wasn't too fond of the newspaper and referred to it as the “New Gloucester Urinal,” or something like that. He was a really upbeat and talkative guy who I believe was an elected local official in Maine. Must be the same hiker.

[smokymtnsteve]

that people were weary of the subject.



now don't Drag ..Weary.. into this Jack..

btw BJ..is your daughter going to be in AK for the season??

if so R U going to fly up??

I gotta old PU we could drive around AK in just like we did in the smokies a couple years ago...

Now that would be humor :jump

[One Leg]

When I saw the original post, I saw it for what it was: humor. Perhaps the original poster did so out of spite for being banned, but I thought that the original post was humorous.

As I stated previously, I've been banned from his website regarding some political views that I hold very strongly. Dan holds his very strongly, and I respect his right to do so. Dan and I are what I would consider to be casual friends. He and I chat on AOL's instant messanger, and he's been a great source of encouragement to me, and also a source of some useful information. I look forward to meeting him during my next Georgia excursion.

In hindsight, I probably should have kept my "still laughing" comment to myself, as, in the past, I've been the subject of public ridicule, and it's not a fun place to be. Public apologies extended to Mr. Bruce.

One-Leg

[TJ aka Teej]

What possible useful purpose does this serve, other than to make you feel good about yourself after this horrible, unforgiveable slight to your person----my gosh, you were tossed off an internet site! You poor abused soul! Jack, I was never tossed off Trailplace. Never said I was, and anyone reading my posts (see "got a ?") knows where I stand on the getting kicked off issue. You've drank some of that koolade you've been handing out. When ever someone has something to say about WF that isn't pleasant you chime in with your "don't listen to him he got kicked off TP and that's why he's agin WF" cup of koolade. That doesn't apply to me. I supported TP, contributed to the guidebook, bought said guidebook, even sent in the occasional contribution, and was subscribed to his mailing list until one of its crashes. Aside from the lack of honesty on his part that I find disconcerting, I didn't start speaking out about WF until he started an email campaign against me for posting that the Putnam Mine had not been stopped, and especially not been stopped by Trailplace emails, and more needed to be done to stop it. You and Weary were both in WF's loop, weren't you? He has at this moment a doctored email about Putnam and me posted on TP, has conviently shifted his stance from "I stopped Putnam, send me a contribution" to "we sent a bunch of emails and TJ says we didn't" and has bad-mouthed me to several service providers in the Maine sections I cover for the ALDHA Companion. My beef is a different one than that of someone merely whining they were kicked off his website for not following the rules. Sorry you don't see it that way.

[weary]

Dances with Mice- If you were sectioning GA southbound and met Moxie, you must also have seen me somewhere along the way. I hiked with a Moxie for a while up to Hot Springs in 2000. He was the first hiker I had met on the trail who could use the common Maine word "ohmagawd" with inflection and meaning. He told me how the local paper had done an article on him stating he was doing the whole trail. He wasn't too fond of the newspaper and referred to it as the “New Gloucester Urinal,” or something like that. He was a really upbeat and talkative guy who I believe was an elected local official in Maine. Must be the same hiker.
Don't quote me, because I don't always connect names and people on this semi-annonymous on line stuff, but I think Moxie is a director of our Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust.

All those who don't like me, but think Moxie is a great guy should send contributions to the land trust. Just open www.matlt.org
There's even a nice button now that enables you to contribute via credit card.

Weary www.matlt.org

[bulldog49]

What's old is folks telling others something they don't want to discuss is getting old. Like I said above, if you find a topic "old" don't read it. It's not old to everyone who visits this site. I took the original post as a clever and funny joke on someone who takes himself way too seriously. If some of you hadn't turned this in to a anti vs pro Wingfoot argument by attacking it, this thread would be dead by now. Lack of a response will kill a topic faster than a lot of pi**ing and moaning.

[TJ aka Teej]

I'd like to thank Jack for pointing me bake in time to an old post by Rock.

More than two years ago, on 15 Feb. 2003, in response to this thread you'd taken pains to introduce, Rock very politely commented that he was sick and tired of this nonsense and asked that we move on to better topics.Just a few posts later that day Rock posted this in that same thread:

I don't mind y'all talking about if he ripped off the data book or not, but lets not rip into each other here."but lets not rip into each other here" I sure wish you had kept reading further on in that old thread before you composed your last few posts, Jack.

[papa john]

Maybe WB should borrow one of WF's tricks and ban auto-ban any discussion of WF! :-?\

PJ

[steve hiker]

I think Pothead's got the best idea yet. Now, where's that bong ... :sun

[smokymtnsteve]

we have a dog named Rip in AK, his litter mates are named tear,worn, and patch.

[Mountain Dew]

Wookie, "It's just like with Warren, when so many of these weak internet cowards were ready to hang him on the internet, but nobody acted when they saw him in person." --- The notion that the people opposed to his views should have confronted him is childish and would only serve to give you more reason to speak out against them. Did you expect them to gather up and seek him out for a verbal confrontation ? Did you expect each person to approach him individually ? Yeah, I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking he wouldn't have been very open to that idea. Those that didn't like what Warren was trying to do exercised their right to VOTE as did the mass majority of the ALDHA members who attended. He was overwhelmingly voted off the board. I didn't want this to turn into the Warren hour of power either, but those comments left unchecked just might look remotely factual.

Wookie, "Like his views or not, Wingfoot does a lot of good for the trail. " --- "alot" ? Name "alot" of things he does good for the trail. Just asking an honest question. Enlighten me my friend.

Wookie, " Maybe, if people had hiked the At or other trails multiple times, they'd understand his views. "--- I think the "multiple hike" people you speak of understand his views, but simply choose to not agree with or condone them.

[White Oak]

When posting on Trailplace:

1. Have red blood in your veins

2. Have a pulse

3. Have something upstairs that passes for a brain

With any 2 of those 3, soon enough, you'll get the boot. :dance

[Lugnut]

Jack, if this thread gets you so worked up then why do you continue to read and comment ? :-?

[steve hiker]

Jack, if this thread gets you so worked up then why do you continue to read and comment ? :-?
He likes it?

[Jack Tarlin]

Lugnut:

One, I'm not worked up. You don't know me that well to think I'm worked up.

I commented because I care about the website. I think this Wingfoot bull**** is childish. I think it hurts the site.
I think it turns off folks who are new to the site and new to the Trail community, and I think they neither know nor particularly care about some other website run by a former hiker who publishes a trail guide every year. I honestly think a lot of the new folks are wondering what the hell these Wingfoot-bashers are talking about and why they care about this non-issue.

I think the folks who continue this nonsense are capable of contributing better things here, but I think it's important for folks to comment when they think a lot of time and energy is being spent on petty, small-minded nonsense.

Internet web-bashing is, in the end, an awfully stupid waste of time and energy. And anonymous Internet web-bashing is even worse. I detest it.

To answer your question, Lugnut, I read this stuff and I coment on it in hopes that it encourages good, knowledgable people to use their time and energy on more productive stuff, and in so doing, to make this site better than it already is, to help new folks with their questions and problems, to help the folks who are leaving in a few days or weeks, and to refrain from sullying the site with whiny, petulant, infantile name-calling and bitching, which is all this Wingfoot nonsense is about. Three times I've asked folks what is gained, what is positive, what is beneficial from this perpetual whining about Dan Bruce and his increasingly insignificant website, and how Whiteblaze benefits in any way, shape, or form from this pitiful wailing bitchery, and three times, nobody's bothered to answer.

Gee, how come they're having such a problem with this one, eh, Lugnut?

[Kozmic Zian]

:p
WF would disagree and ban U... :datz Most definitely, everyone on this thread would be banned for discussing WF, if we were on TP. Don't discuss me behind my back.....ya'll. I mean, I am Wingfoot after all! Just a joke guys. Don't take any of this serious.KZ@:jump

[Tha Wookie]

Wookie, "It's just like with Warren, when so many of these weak internet cowards were ready to hang him on the internet, but nobody acted when they saw him in person." --- The notion that the people opposed to his views should have confronted him is childish and would only serve to give you more reason to speak out against them. Did you expect them to gather up and seek him out for a verbal confrontation ? Did you expect each person to approach him individually ? Yeah, I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking he wouldn't have been very open to that idea. Those that didn't like what Warren was trying to do exercised their right to VOTE as did the mass majority of the ALDHA members who attended. He was overwhelmingly voted off the board. I didn't want this to turn into the Warren hour of power either, but those comments left unchecked just might look remotely factual.

Wookie, "Like his views or not, Wingfoot does a lot of good for the trail. " --- "alot" ? Name "alot" of things he does good for the trail. Just asking an honest question. Enlighten me my friend.

Wookie, " Maybe, if people had hiked the At or other trails multiple times, they'd understand his views. "--- I think the "multiple hike" people you speak of understand his views, but simply choose to not agree with or condone them.
1. People talked all kinds of slander about Warren on the internet, and didn't tell him to his face when they had the chance. Somehow voting at ALDHA doesn't fully express all the garbage spewed. My mom always told taught me never to say anything about anybody I wouldn't say to their face. It's the same crap people were giving One Leg and Jack also at other times. The personal attacks on the internet are beyond pathetic and just plain sad in my opinion. Saying things about the way he runs his web is one thing, but this sounds like a bunch of gossiping hags.

2. Wingfoot has done a lot of good for the trail. His book alone has done this, not to mention his journal pages he used to have that got me hooked on the idea of thru-hiking.

3. I already said that.

4. Confronting someone with the words you say about them is childish, you're right. It's childish because at young ages we haven't learned to be sneaky, backstabbing, and scared of facing someone child to child. At least I hadn;t learned it as a child. Getting a good education in here, though.

[Slimer]

Bulldog49's post is by far the most intelligent post in this thread..................

[Lugnut]

Jack, I salute you in your quest to rid this site of WF bashing but it ain't gonna happen. As long as there are AT related web sites the WF debate will go on. It happens on all of them; it has become part of the trail culture.

P S. You still sound worked up - I liked your nice string of adjectives. :D

[Will Moody]

Thread has been moved to...



"Top Thirteen Signs A (Wingfoot) Thread Has Become Too Hot"

[A-Train]

Jack-

I agree with you about Wingfoot, and I guess we are in the minority here, as many folks seem to desire to go on talking about Wingfoot, or as Bulldog mentions, there are new people who are not necessarily tired of it. His suggestion is a good one. No one has to read anything against their will here.

The fact is, a lot of people evidently do want to discuss Wingfoot here, and they have a right to, whether we agree or not. Troll and Rock have the jurisdiciton to close the thread as they've done from time to time. Until that day, people here have every right to continue on whether we all agree or not. As someone who has been posting regularly for 2 years, it is tiring, but I realize it's not for everyone. And yes some folks who are "veterans" here still love to mention him.

But I'm glad Wookie brought up Warren Doyle. The fact is Jack, you went on and on and on last October about Warren Doyle's illegal activities and attempted to clear up and discuss matters that had long had dust settle on them. A lot of people, myself included, got very tired of that constant back and forth negative commentary, and honestly I don't think it benefited many people in their thru-hiking planning. I know, I know you were trying to make sure people here didn't listen to an irresponsible trail veteran who told them to break rules. Thats all good, but I think most people here are smart enough for themselves to make up their mind about Warren Doyle.

People suggested the multiple thread tirades were growing old and pointless but you insisted on re-hashing problems from Gatherings-past. I know you weren't the only one, and there were other folks ready to put Warren on trial too. The fact is though, you were allowed to continue posting and no one stopped you. That is the beauty of this site.

So I apologize if this seems an attack or a lame excuse to re-hash the Warren Saga (afterall Wookie brought him up). I'm just trying to convey the idea that just because you are tired of a certain conversation doesn't mean that everyone else is, and that although the discussions about Warren didn't go on for two years, they certainly went on long enough. After a quick easy search , I saw that you declared yourself utterly tired of discussing the manner and then proceeded to post some 20 odd times more on the same thread.
If you're tired of it all, simply ignore it. Whether you try to put a stop to the Wingfoot bashing or not, it's gonna reoccur here eventually. Just ignore it and go for a walk (as I'm glad to see you've done).

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Granted it is not easy to operate on Wingfoot's site - but the fact stands that God help anybody who tries to organize AT members behind the Trail's purpose (which is always conspicuously absent from these criticisms)...

[Mountain Dew]

Wookie, Your idea of alot doesn't amount to much. If writing a book with somebody elses information in order to self promote and earn a living is helping the A.T. in your opinion then I suppose we shall forever disagree. Anything he ever did to help the A.T. with his "journal pages" has been erased forever with his nazi style webpage that some newbie hikers are subjected to as their first taste of the A.T.

Bill Bryson is directly responsible for me finding out about the A.T. , but that doesn't mean that I must now blindly defend the guy. I see him and his book for what they are. A little good and "alot" of BS.

Wookie, It's painfully obvious that you know not what you speak of in regards to what happened with Warren and the Gathering last year. If you did then you'd know and admit that this group you claim slandered Warren was defending themselves as Warren wanted them to no longer be included in ALDHA. He got voted off the board by an OVERWHELMING margin. These people you claim slandered him online it seems was just the tip of the iceberg waiting to vote at the gathering. Let that FACT set in. Oh, by the way, it's only slander when it isn't true. Otherwise it's called FACT.

Wookie, "4. Confronting someone with the words you say about them is childish, you're right. It's childish because at young ages we haven't learned to be sneaky, backstabbing, and scared of facing someone child to child. At least I hadn;t learned it as a child. Getting a good education in here, though." --- Didn't you say something about being a weak minded internet coward for people not saying their peace with him face to face ? I guess you have about 50 people to speak to at Trail Days or else be labeled by your own words braveheart.

[Tha Wookie]

Braveheart? Gee, thanks, MD, does this mean I get to wear a kilt without you labeling me gay over the internet?

You just like to argue, I know, so go ahead. I need no defense.

[Mountain Dew]

Wookie, Heck, wear a SKIRT with the rainbow on it if you want. I couldn't care less and will not and have not commented on people choosing to wear skirts to hike in. Nice try at redirection though. I'll always argue as long as you attempt to have people believe your misleading posts and silly perceptions of the facts. See you at Trail Days this year my red headed friend ? :dance

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, this is getting tired:

A-Train, please try and read a little better Nobody is questioning anyone's "right" to discuss this subject, nobody is suggesting that the topic be censored, barred,
or restricted. Nobody's telling you or anyone else that certain things can't be talked about. Stop trying to make this a "censorship" issue, because it isn't.

People are merely suggesting that there are a helluva lot more worthy subjects that the career of Dan Bruce. After all, it's March. People are leaving Springer every day. Personally, I think our time is better spent helping these folks, answering their last-minute questions, etc. Personally, I think this is a much better way for folks to contribute something worthwhile to Whiteblaze.

But maybe that's just me.

Oh, and A-Train, since everyone's running away from this one, maybe you'll take a stab at it: This ceaseless carping about Dan Bruce, his writings, and his website: What
does Whiteblaze gain from it, and how is this Forum improved or elevated by it? And A-Train, in regards to some of the nastier posts on this matter, what does it say about their authors when we see that the harshest coments are always made uder the cloak of anonymity? Trash-talking someone on an Internet Forum under a cute pseudodym doesn't take a whole lot of skill, but I'd have a helluva lot more respect for these folks if they'd have the honor and integrity to put their real names on their posts once in awhile.

A-Train, you're essentially saying that folks have the right to anonymously attack anyone they wish in the hiking community; they can do so as often as they wish; that they can say anything that they wish; and they can unload their venom without standing up like men and putting their names on their attacks.

Well, gee whiz, A-Train. You're right. They absolutely have the right to do all of that, and I'm sure you feel very proud of yourself for taking such a noble, high-road position. What you're defending and advocating sure sounds like a noble and worthwhile endeavor.

Sorry. I think it's tiresome, gutless, and contributes nothing of value to this dialogue. But feel free to convince me otherwise.

[Youngblood]

A-Train,

I think we saw this the same way.

Youngblood

[A-Train]

Jack,

I can read just fine, my momma gave me two good eyes (although my nose is a little crooked). I never said this is a sensorship issue. Obviously you can't close down a thread if you wished to. My point was EXACTLY what you just re-inforced again. So many countless posts I've heard you go on about how bored and tired you are of some of these issues and how you have much better things to do with your time. But for some reason you keep coming back to them and coming back. Maybe you're just stubborn and like to win argurments-nothing wrong with that. But ever think that continuing to contribute to a thread your supposedly so tired of gives off a message and isn't gonna convince anyone to stop adding to it. My post was a suggestion simply that if you ever had the self control to just quit on some of the threads and swallow your pride most of these flames would die out eventually.

As for Wingfoot, I'm really not interested in continuing to debate that and I've made this rather clear. Unfortunately the topic of Wingfoot will continue to come up and come up. He's a trail legend. People talked about him all the time on the trail and no difference on the internet. It's nice to see you take a stand against Wingfoot bashing especially because I know you don't agree with everything he says, but the fact is your opinion is not gonna change the need people have to vent and frustrate their anger for being kicked off a site for what they assume to be some harmless comment about trail magic.
That is as good as an answer as I can give you. I assume people like to rally around the fact that they share something in general, some comraderie if you will. Albeit this is a crappy way to make friends at someone elses expense but I doubt Mr. Bruce cares. He has better things to do with his time, and I believe that to be so.

[TJ aka Teej]

Oh, and A-Train, since everyone's running away from this one, maybe you'll take a stab at it: This ceaseless carping about Dan Bruce, his writings, and his website: What
does Whiteblaze gain from it, and how is this Forum improved or elevated by it? And A-Train, in regards to some of the nastier posts on this matter, what does it say about their authors when we see that the harshest coments are always made uder the cloak of anonymity?Well, this has nothing to do with me, but I'll comment anyway. I don't know about "ceaseless carping", but giving and getting accurate information seems to be the highest form of existence for the Internet. Accuracy isn't always pleasant, but limiting information is never accurate. If you'd rather only see inaccurate and limited information that doesn't upset you, your only course of action would be to choose only "safe" topics to read and respond to. But if you get so upset that after telling someone you don't want to hear what they have say, and then ask them questions, and then get upset if your questions aren't answered, perhaps you need to rethink your posts before hitting the 'submit reply' button. As far as Internet anonymity is concerned, anyone getting an email from me (including Jack and Wingy) gets my name, address, and phone number in my signature. Heck, Wingy even knows my checking account number. But putting that into every Internet post? Sorry, got a wife and kids, Jack.

[Jack Tarlin]

I've got better things to do with my time also, so this'll be relatively short.

I hear you, A-Train, but it STILL doesn't answer the question about what is positive and good about all of this complaining, and how this benefits Whiteblaze, because it don't see that it does.

Two points: I don't believe in any Trail legends except Earl Shaffer and he's gone. Wingfoot is an author and website administrator who hiked a great deal over a decade ago. Period.

And second, people that "need to vent and frustrate their anger" over being tossed off a website that gets little traffic and is essentially insignificant.....well, these folks realy need to take a hard look at their lives. Pick up any newspaper, A-Train and look at the front page; things could be a lot tougher for them. If the worst thing in their lives is being tossed off some silly internet site years ago, they really have it going pretty good.

And lastly, A-Train, you STILL don't get that this isn't about closing down a thread. I wasn't trying to force anything to close down; this isn't my website. All I was saying, and I still believe, is that there are around ten thousand more important things to talk about and I think most folks here are more interested in providing useful information and in helping others, rather than having some pathological need to "vent and frustrate their anger" over something as petty and small as being removed from another trail website.

I said "most" folks are interested in other things.

As for those who aren't, well have at it. Keep raging away. But does this "venting" really make you feel better or serve any purpose OTHER than to let people bitch? Is that what this site was designed for, to be a whining station for the angry and offended?

I think this site was meant for better things, but once again, I guess that's my opinion.

[Tim Rich]

Granted it is not easy to operate on Wingfoot's site - but the fact stands that God help anybody who tries to organize AT members behind the Trail's purpose (which is always conspicuously absent from these criticisms)...

I've seen no criticism of those at this site actually organizing for the trail's purpose. I applaud those, such as Weary www.matlt.org (I believe that's his new trailname), who take a tangible, realistic approach to trail protection. Those who spew unending rants 'n rubbish, but never offer a single real world solution, invite retorts 'n ridicule.

[TJ aka Teej]

And second, people that "need to vent and frustrate their anger" over being tossed off a website that gets little traffic and is essentially insignificant.....well, these folks realy need to take a hard look at their lives. >snip< ...rather than having some pathological need to "vent and frustrate their anger" over something as petty and small as being removed from another trail website.
Here's yet another one of the many things Jack and I are in perfect agreement on. I've said many times, here and on the at-l and TrailJournals, that it is His site, you should follow His rules if you want to participate, and you should be neither proud nor upset if you've gotten yourself kicked off.

[bulldog49]

As for those who aren't, well have at it. Keep raging away. But does this "venting" really make you feel better or serve any purpose OTHER than to let people bitch? Is that what this site was designed for, to be a whining station for the angry and offended?

I think this site was meant for better things, but once again, I guess that's my opinion.


Lighten up Jack. This thread began as a joke, not in rage or venting. Those emotions were introduced by those of you who felt compelled to lecture the rest of us on how we should spend our time. Quite frankly, I don't need, or care, for someone telling me what or who I should discuss.

For the umpteenth time, if you find any of this bothersome, simply don't read it. Can't folks just discuss a topic, regardless of what "benefit" you deem it to have.

[smokymtnsteve]

think that it comes down to 'control issues" one reason and purpose for being "on the trail" is to escape control issues of the 'everyday" world...to experience freedom, to experience the call of the wild, trailplace and wingy try to limit the call of the wild, hikers are just answering the call of the wild.

complaining about complaining about wingy also is stifling the "call of the wild" that hikers love...

being "on the trail" is about breaking "society's" norms...it is about being the savage (aldous huxley's brave new world).

I'm am the Walrus...koko ca choo

[bulldog49]

complaining about complaining about wingy also is stifling the "call of the wild" that hikers love...


I'm am the Walrus...koko ca choo

Right on SMS, that's doing the exact same thing they are criticising others for doing.

[Tim Rich]

I'm am the Walrus...koko ca choo

Now you've done it, poking the masses with a sharp stick. Is it not bad enough to have this discussion without opening up another can-o-worms, inflaming the age-old tensions between Coo coo ca choo and Goo goo g' joob?

Have you no shame? :D

[smokymtnsteve]

me don't hear well..but me do liek to sing with dogs under nothern lights...

jujuo ka boo ..ilike big boobs

I even liek wingy foot...and BJ is all right too..

[Mags]

I've seen no criticism of those at this site actually organizing for the trail's purpose. I applaud those, such as Weary www.matlt.org (I believe that's his new trailname), who take a tangible, realistic approach to trail protection. Those who spew unending rants 'n rubbish, but never offer a single real world solution, invite retorts 'n ridicule.


Yep, I may not always agree with Weary, but no one can argue with his love of the trail and his hard work to protect it.

If you have a few spare bucks, it is a worthy organization to donate to.

As always, if you have the time, doing some trail work is also a good thing to do. A weekend of your time will help immensley, is rewarding and is fun. If you can't easily do trailwork on the AT (I know I can't!), there are always local trail orgs who will be willing to have you help out. Not the AT, but still good "trail karma". :)

I think coming together in a spirit of cooperation IS the purpose of the trail. Swing that pulaski, move those rocks, give a little sweat equity. It is easy to lose focus on the Internet. We are all guilty of it from time to time (myself included). But, some people will regain their focus from time to time, get off the Internet, and do something positive.

[A-Train]

Geez Jack,

I'm not gonna continue to go on, so hopefully this will be the last time I post on this thread. It's rather pointless to continue to argue as for one, I don't think there is much to argue here, we generally see eye to eye on these issues. Second, YOU are not understanding and reading clearly as you accuse me of being at fault for. I just in my last post acknowledged that obviously you couldn't censor or control any issues here. Instead you say this about how our time would be better spent helping people. That was esentially MY point, but I'm sorry you overlooked that. My original comment was based on your salient point that you stated that YOU would be better off helping thur-hikers here, as you normally do (though I shouldn't be worried with what you do, admittedly). My point was by you continuing to post and add to topics that you deemed pointless and tiring, you are esentially adding to the problem not helping. And by announcing over and over that Wingfoot bashing is counter productive, is not going to do a whole lot. People here know where you stand and that is noble enough in my book. The reason I said Wingfoot is a legend is because his name will continue to get thrown around on the internet and around campfires for as long as he publishes his book. Normally legends are associated with good, and I believe Dan is a pioneer in some sense, but the point is, people in the community are not gonna get tired of ranting.

Is that sad? Well yes and I agree with you. Everyone could use time better than to come and bash Wingfoot but it gives people a sense of community, a self-help group for people tossed off (as I've joked about here in the past). But Jack, nowhere in the 100 posts on this thread did I put down Dan or contribute to the rumors and bashing that you AND I disagree with. So I'm not sure why you keep posing questions to me and not the people responsible. Maybe because you know they won't answer back? Probably so.

The fact is I do pick up a newspaper everyday and I'm sure everyone here can agree that the petty AT intenet arguments are small beans compared to what is going on in Sudan and Lebanon and Iraq. Our problems are incredibly small, but I've never said otherwise.

Anyway, I hope we can continue to get back to talking trail and planning and help others. As you always say, that's why were here. I know that's true for me.

[smokymtnsteve]

Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
We're so glad you could attend
Come inside! Come inside!
There behind a glass is a real blade of grass
be careful as you pass.
Move along! Move along!

[The Weasel]

I've watched this debate, maybe more neutrally than some, for longer than WhiteBlaze has been around, seeing some of it on the old TrailPlace Forum. There are a few things both sides don't realize...

- Dan has made himself a 'public figure' about the trail, legally and practically. He speaks about it and trail issues (and sometimes more), and has strong opinions and often shares them. He has a right to do so, whether he's right or wrong. I don't think Dan has ever formally become a "501(C)(3)" organization, which might limit his political advocacy, and that may be a reason why he hasn't. Saying that "Dan is a great guy, leave him alone," in so many words, ignores the fact that Dan (just like anyone who plays as large a role in a topic as he does with the AT) doesn't want to be left alone, or at least can hardly expect to.

- As a 'public figure' both Dan's opinions and the way he expresses them are fair game, no more and no less than if he were the AARP, the NRA, the Sierra Club or the Save The Raisins Foundation. Challenges to what he says and what he does are part of public debate about the Trail (and more), and it adds to the robustness of that debate that it be free and unlimited. It elevates a forum, I think, to permit such debate, even if it seems 'old' to some. While not all forums are, or must be, or even should be, "free," I think it shows a pride of place when one permits what, in one noted legal case about the First Amendment, was described as "the free marketplace of ideas." WhiteBlaze is one such forum, and it adds to WhiteBlaze's reputation that it permits such issues to be freely disputed.

- Dan owns TrailPlace. He can exclude anyone he wants, and there is nothing wrong with doing so. If he chooses to have a one-sided explication of Trail issues on his forum, there is nothing wrong with that; just as he might ask someone to leave his home with whom he disagrees (and just as any of us might), he may do the same with TrailPlace. It is not a mark of "dishonor" that he doesn't open his forum the way this (and others) are.

- Personal attacks are foolish and childish; lawyers - like me - call them "ad hominem" attacks (Latin is fun to use...it means "upon the man, or person") in court to distinguish them from arguments that have any merit. Either facts or logic are fair game; attacking the person stating them is simply rhetoric, and largely bankrupt in the process, since it doesn't matter so much who is saying something as much as what they are saying. Keep in mind that even a stopped clock is right twice a day (fewer, in the military, but even then, yeah, at least once!).

***

So I don't mind seeing the debate go on, resurrected from time to time. "Newbies" get to see what it is all about, and it is relevant to the trail and its culture. It's no more "old" than seeing new threads about "how do I get things lighter" or "what is the best water purification" and such things that are well-discussed in the the archives here, and elsewhere. Nor is the fact that the same positions are often asserted as have occurred in past years and years and years...if novelty in public discourse were mandatory, the Republican and Democratic Parties would be silent (which, I know, may not be a bad thing...but it's not gonna happen, children!).

So go ahead, folks. Debate Dan, and his policies, and his ideas, as long as Rock and the others who control this Forum leave it (I hope) as free as public discussion should be (I hope) in our Nation. Cheap shots and personal attacks, well, it would be nice to see them reduced. But (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa) it's hard to prevent them. This is a useful thread and, yeah, sometimes it is - as it should be - a funny one. Don't stop!

The Weasel

[Smile]

Birds of a feather flock together ;)

[smokymtnsteve]

THE WORD OF THE WEASEL!
THANKS BE TO THE WEASEL :sun

[The Old Fhart]

Although I can't find fault with what The Weasel has said, what makes me somewhat uneasy about all this is that Wingfoot is kind of tried In Absentia. Sorry to interupt, go at it.....

[smokymtnsteve]

Although I can't find fault with what The Weasel has said, what makes me somewhat uneasy about all this is that Wingfoot is kind of tried In Absentia. Sorry to interupt, go at it.....

His choice...wingfoot is NOT banned from Whiteblaze...he can join in anytime he likes.

[weary]

....So I don't mind seeing the debate go on, resurrected from time to time. "Newbies" get to see what it is all about, and it is relevant to the trail and its culture. It's no more "old" than seeing new threads about "how do I get things lighter" or "what is the best water purification" and such things that are well-discussed in the the archives here, and elsewhere. Nor is the fact that the same positions are often asserted as have occurred in past years and years and years...if novelty in public discourse were mandatory, the Republican and Democratic Parties would be silent (which, I know, may not be a bad thing...but it's not gonna happen, children!).

So go ahead, folks. Debate Dan, and his policies, and his ideas, as long as Rock and the others who control this Forum leave it (I hope) as free as public discussion should be (I hope) in our Nation. Cheap shots and personal attacks, well, it would be nice to see them reduced. But (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa) it's hard to prevent them. This is a useful thread and, yeah, sometimes it is - as it should be - a funny one. Don't stop!
Not only that, but it gives Dan some very valuable publicity, which he needs. If it weren't for WhiteBlaze's prolonged Wingfoot debates, many wouldn't know Trailplace exists, and a valuable resource would be lost.

Weary

[orangebug]

Weary is quite correct. AT-L seems to have forgotten that he ever existed. :bse

BTW, wasn't this a humor thread?

[Rocks 'n Roots]

But then again there's a lot AT-L has forgotten existed - isn't there...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

I've seen no criticism of those at this site actually organizing for the trail's purpose. I applaud those, such as Weary www.matlt.org (http://www.matlt.org/) (I believe that's his new trailname), who take a tangible, realistic approach to trail protection. Those who spew unending rants 'n rubbish, but never offer a single real world solution, invite retorts 'n ridicule.

The irony of all this is that the "realism" Tim sites in his purely personal attack is on the side of what I'm referring to. I'm all for what Weary is doing, but the two need not be separated.

The particular irony being that Wingfoot, myself, or anyone who sites the Trail's purpose has a lot more credible Trail "reality" behind their effort than do people who are obviously out for personal purposes and don't really mind the Trail ideas they trample.

The investigation of Benton MacKaye's practical conservation purpose for the AT is a valid topic of AT discussion on any AT site. As a matter of fact it is probably THE most valid. Attacking somebody because of that is something that those who do it should be looking at their own input and its AT validity before questioning others.


Wingfoot's main flaw is his not coming on here and defending his Trail views. Perhaps, like Warren, he dislikes dealing with some of the darker internet creatures who are only here for attacking those who violate the bonfire crowd's airheaded buzz...


No Tim, you'll see no criticism of those who organize for the AT's philosophical purpose because that would take actual thought, appreciation, and "giving a rat's ass" so to speak. What have you offered Tim? (I'm talking about a shared sense of wilderness ethic and conservation by Trail members) (Trail responsibility). Now try to articulate a respectful answer without "spewing" yourself...

[neo]

why does anyone even waste time on a post like this lol:cool: neo

[Tim Rich]

No Tim, you'll see no criticism of those who organize for the AT's philosophical purpose because that would take actual thought, appreciation, and "giving a rat's ass" so to speak. What have you offered Tim? (I'm talking about a shared sense of wilderness ethic and conservation by Trail members) (Trail responsibility). Now try to articulate a respectful answer without "spewing" yourself...

Sure Roxy, I won't spew, and I'll try to be brief. I write this because you asked. I'm concerned that this might be construed as puffery, like I'm bragging. I'm also equally embarrassed that, compared to the efforts of others here, it's apparent that I've done precious little. When I'm on trail, I try to be a good steward by leaving it better than I found it, and doing my best that those I travel with and encounter are the better for having met me. Although I haven't done enough of it, I believe trail maintenance is key to a literal conservation of trail resources, whether it's going to work days or just stopping to thank and help maintainers I've met on the trail. Off trail, I would guess my financial contributions and letters I've written for trail advocacy go the farthest in conservation efforts. What do I advocate? A careful use of private and public funding to find willing sellers to add to AT lands in select areas.

So, there it is, my own little manifesto for trail advocacy. There's not much there - the trail's a part of my life, but not a big part. I have other pursuits, but most importantly I have overriding responsibilities and priorities in my life for which I'm very thankful - I'll not spew about them.

Take Care,

Tim

[Jack Tarlin]

Geez, Rocks, sometimes you are unreal.

Truth is, Wingfoot avoids "darker Internet creatures" on other sites by pretending that other sites don't exist; he avoids them on his site by stifling and excising any comment that he doesn't like.

And Warren didn't leave this site because of "darker Internet creatures", Rocks. He left because he couldn't control the conversation, he couldn't dominate it, and he was confronted with questions and criticisms that he disn't care to discuss. He is, of course, welcome to return at any time, but I doubt he will, for the reasons stated above.

And as to your comments about the AT's purpose and original intention, Rocks, this has been discussed at great length elsewhere. We've heard your opinion on this matter time and time again; we also witnessed your inability, (kind of like W. Doyle) to answer repeated direct questions and repeated requests to express yourself more clearly, and justify your statements here. You never did so, so please don't re-hash those threads again.

In your last post, you again mentioned Benton MacKaye We all know you actually have virtually no real knowledge of MacKaye's life and writings, and cannot cite specific works and writings that would support your dozens of statements regarding his life and work. You also have an unpleasant habit of assiduously avoiding countless requests to support your more outrageous statements. To put it bluntly, you don't back up what you say because you haven't the facts to sustain what you're saying; the reason you don't have the facts is because all to often, you don't really know what the hel you're talking about.

So please don't start up again, or, as on other occasions, you'll destroy this dialogue and kill this thread.

Hmmmmm. Maybe that's not such a bad idea.

Post on, Rocks!!!

[lumpy]

This is my third post on this website. I thought this Forum was about the AT experience, not personal attacks about anyone. I don't know who this "Wingfoot" is, but I certainly have no ill feelings about anyone, especially those who express their 1st Amendment rights. Who cares? Not I. If someone's website should restrict usage due to an ambivalence of anger,frustration, and ignorance then so be it. I'm here to learn, even if it is about someone you have either no repect or admiration for, it all sounds like petty jealousy to me. I say, move on dudes!

[TJ aka Teej]

I'm here to learn, Then you'll be happy to know that information about all AT resources, all AT books, all AT websites, all AT hiker gatherings, and all AT topics are available here.

[SGT Rock]

This is my third post on this website. I thought this Forum was about the AT experience, not personal attacks about anyone. I don't know who this "Wingfoot" is, but I certainly have no ill feelings about anyone, especially those who express their 1st Amendment rights. Who cares? Not I. If someone's website should restrict usage due to an ambivalence of anger,frustration, and ignorance then so be it. I'm here to learn, even if it is about someone you have either no repect or admiration for, it all sounds like petty jealousy to me. I say, move on dudes!


Well you may have just learned that anyone can rant and be an expert on the Internet, but it doesn't always mean anyone knows what they are talking about. :-? Just learn to adjust the bull**** meter on some issues and the Internet is a wonderful thing :sun

[swift]

enough. let's hike.

[orangebug]

But then again there's a lot AT-L has forgotten existed - isn't there...Yeh, someone forgot that heavy metal ions can't be filtered out of bad water. Care to demonstrate? :rolleyes:

[Bonehead]

Call him a bone head.

[lumpy]

Thanks Teej: My feelings exactly man. Being able to post here is awesome even though I may be discredited or whatever, I don't really care about that. I joined to learn from the experience of other Thru-Hikers regardless. I paid a visit to TP and liked some posts, but I feel this site is more direct and comprehensive. Why I'm viewing this thread? I just wanted some enlightenment but intend to move on and keep learning from other threads. Thanks for the insight guys, I appreciate it.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Thanks Tim, I consider the fact that your answer never touched on the main point about the Trail's purpose a confirmation and validation of what I said. After all the Trail does have a purpose doesn't it? It can't not have one. Since people are averse or hostile to discussing that I think I've proven my point. Attack it all you want. I think we've finally exposed your contempt towards the subject and hostile intent minus a full understanding of what is being discussed. But the personal name-calling already gave that away. Again, you've failed to show any understanding of the subject - that being the Trail's purpose. However, you have adquately shown a dislike for AT environmentalism as a practical matter...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Sure Jack, that sounds good to somebody whose main purpose is denying any attempt at AT education. More than enough has been shown for those looking for it. This coming from the side who claimed MacKaye never expressed any wilderness intention for the AT. When the proof came up suddenly the naysayers disappeared...


Sure Jack...

[ed bell]

For those of you who are puzzled about the last several posts, I checked it out, just to make sure, this thread is located in the hiking humor forum.

[The Old Fhart]

"After all the Trail does have a purpose doesn't it?"

The trails purpose is to stretch from Springer to Katahdin, a purpose which it does quite nicely. It doesn't reach up to heaven or down to hell, except in some hiker's minds. :D

[Youngblood]

"After all the Trail does have a purpose doesn't it?"

The trails purpose is to stretch from Springer to Katahdin, a purpose which it does quite nicely. It doesn't reach up to heaven or down to hell, except in some hiker's minds. :D
Good one! Humorous, factual and easy to understand.

[Jack Tarlin]

Lemme get this straight......now Rocks is convinced that when folks don't want to discuss things with him anymore, or even acknowledge his posts, then they're validating what he's saying.

Earth to Rocks: You've never, on your own, been able to validate any of your posts here, so don't expect us to do it.

If people are ignoring your contributions here, it is most likley because they're not worth acknowledging.

Got it now?

Oh, and thanks for filling me in on my "main purpose" in life. This one has had me puzzled for several decades now, but thanks for clearing it all up. What on earth would we do without you?

[Tim Rich]

Thanks Tim, I consider the fact that your answer never touched on the main point about the Trail's purpose a confirmation and validation of what I said. After all the Trail does have a purpose doesn't it? It can't not have one. Since people are averse or hostile to discussing that I think I've proven my point. Attack it all you want. I think we've finally exposed your contempt towards the subject and hostile intent minus a full understanding of what is being discussed. But the personal name-calling already gave that away. Again, you've failed to show any understanding of the subject - that being the Trail's purpose. However, you have adquately shown a dislike for AT environmentalism as a practical matter...

It's really sad that one who claims to love the AT has utterly failed to make any headway in a community of AT enthusiasts. You have no message of substance, you have no experience or track record of any significance, and you are absolutely disconnected from any semblance of reason and fact. You have never provided a single, tangible recommendation regarding the trail. You are blind and alone, flailing at the wind. When your vision temporarily clears and you see no pursuers around you, you claim victory.

Congratulations.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

It's really sad that one who claims to love the AT has utterly failed to make any headway in a community of AT enthusiasts. You have no message of substance, you have no experience or track record of any significance, and you are absolutely disconnected from any semblance of reason and fact. You have never provided a single, tangible recommendation regarding the trail. You are blind and alone, flailing at the wind. When your vision temporarily clears and you see no pursuers around you, you claim victory.


The trouble here Tim is that anyone with a good knowledge of the Trail would see that your post and intention is purely ad hominem and personal while mine refers to MacKaye and his purpose for the Trail. A subject that starts with an attempt to accurately explain legitmate Trail ideas that invariably ends up in a free for all against "Roxy" is not the failure of the person who has accurately explained the AT.

I also congratulate you...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

"After all the Trail does have a purpose doesn't it?"

The trails purpose is to stretch from Springer to Katahdin, a purpose which it does quite nicely. It doesn't reach up to heaven or down to hell, except in some hiker's minds.

A very dumb statement in complete contempt of MacKaye, total AT history, ATC, and my intelligence. If people prefer shallow remarks like this they are entitled to them, but that doesn't mean they're not a group of wise asses looking to trip up somebody with serious intent. MacKaye and his meaning are out there. It's obvious Old Fart, Jack and others can't stand it. Which means they can't stand what the Trail was founded for and ATC pursues.

Thanks Old Fart...

[Jack Tarlin]

"MacKaye and his meaning are out there."

No, Rocks. It's YOU who are way out there.

You don't know jack**** about Benton MacKaye, it's been clearly established that you're essentially a functional illiterate when it comes to Trail history; you've NEVER been able to come up with staements or quotes from the folks you profess to be such an expert on; when pressed, you spun us some wonderful tale about the books or magazines that would support your arguments having providentially vanished or were misplaced at the precise moment that you needed to refernce them.

"The dog ate my book report so I can't directly answer your questions" is not exactly a sterling way to win debates, Rocks.

The hysterical thing is the way you throw around the word "contempt." How dare you tell anyone they've nothing but contempt for MacKaye or the Trail. These are folks who've forgotten more about MacKaye than you'll ever know; some of these folks have done more for the Trail in terms of maintenance and volunteerism in the past year than you've done in the past two decades.

If you want to be respected here, Rocks, and you obviously want this desperately, then stop talking nonsense, and stop insulting people.

And you're right.....Mackaye and his meaning ARE out there; this information can be found by examining the man's life and works, most of which are in print and remain freely available for study.

If you're that keen on lecturing us on Mackaye's meaning and intentions, is it too much to ask that you actually read up on the writings that you're alledgedly such an expert on? The material IS out there, if only you choose to look at it.

I assure you, Rocks, that not all of MacKaye's writings have been eaten by dogs and are subsequently lost to history.

Post less, read more, close your mouth, and open your eyes.

When it's evident that you actually know what you're talking about, you might be surprised at how people treat and respect your comments here.

Lastly, you seem concerned over contempt for your intelligence. Wrong again. Before one can spare contempt for something, one first has to acknowledge that the object actually exists. The re-action to your posts here Rocks is NOT a refusal to acknowledge and properly respect your wisdom and erudition. It is merely a general acknowledgement that wisdom, erudition, and intelligence are singularly lacking from everything you contribute here.

Oh. Your posts are repetitive and dull in addition to being poorly written, but that's been said, too.

But really Rocks, read some more and post a bit less.

You'll benefit by acquiring many things worth remembering.

Whiteblaze will benefit by having fewer things worth forgetting.

[Jack Lincoln]

Jack is, in some ways, as you Roks. He wears his experiences on the AT on his sleeve. Man, he pegged your ass this time...

Pray tell me Roks; what did Mackaye envision that we should be doing right now that we aren't? Plus! Mackaye is not the definitive authority of the direction, scope and range that the caretakers of the AT should take! Prove to anyone that he is that deity. You can't, of course.

We live in another era; that one that Mr. Mackaye never experienced.

You want a hero or something? Hell, pick Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett or Jim Bridger or ole Avery. A bunch of damn drunks, all of them..... Any of their writings are boring to read and mostly lies. Plus two of the above could barely write. You pick which two. Hint. One of them was a congressman and the other two hardly ever worked a day in their life. Kinda like Thoreau..

Go hiking on the AT Roks. You aren't going to change it by doing so, nor will you have anything but positive experiences while out there. Of this, I am confident.

Peace bro..


Jack Lincoln

[The Old Fhart]

R n R-“ A very dumb statement in complete contempt of ………… my intelligence.”Don’t flatter yourself, Rox, I never consider your capacity at understanding, even the simplest concept, when I post a reply. I can’t have contempt for some imaginary quality you’ve never displayed in all your numerous posts.

[weary]

Pray tell me Roks; what did Mackaye envision that we should be doing right now that we aren't? Plus! Mackaye is not the definitive authority of the direction, scope and range that the caretakers of the AT should take! Prove to anyone that he is that deity. You can't, of course.
We live in another era; that one that Mr. Mackaye never experienced.
You want a hero or something? Hell, pick Daniel Boone or Davy Crockett or Jim Bridger or ole Avery. A bunch of damn drunks, all of them..... Any of their writings are boring to read and mostly lies. Plus two of the above could barely write. You pick which two. Hint. One of them was a congressman and the other two hardly ever worked a day in their life. Kinda like Thoreau.. Jack Lincoln
Jack L.'s comment on Thoreau is absurd. You don't write a book that's still being read 150 years later without working. You don't fill 20 volumes of journals, which are still being mined for new books without working. My local book store has a three-foot shelf of books by and about Thoreau. No other author of the era comes close.

No. His books did not earn Henry a living, but he certainly worked. He worked at cataloging the natural history of Massachusetts. He worked at phrasing sentencies, and ideas that are the envy of most writers, and which continue to influence the world.

And yes, he earned a living and supported his parents and sister by working as a handiman, a land surveyor and pencil maker. His pencils were considered the best on the market in the mid-1880s.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

... in contempt of MacKaye, total AT history, ATC, and my intelligence.Ahh, good! We're back to humor! Irony is humor, isn't it?
Roxy, an anonymous Internet person with no known connection to the Appalachian Trail, has shown nothing but contempt for the many dozens of real AT persons who have on this and other forums cited page after page, quote after quote, book after book, example after example all completely contradicting Roxy's inane ideas about the Trail, its history, and its institutions. When asked if he can do the same to support his screwy notions, he claims he can't find his books, but the answers are "out there." He has proven he is completely unqualified to participate in discussions or debates regarding the Appalchian Trail. Yet he continues to think he is. That's funny, in a sad sort of way.

[weary]

....That's funny, in a sad sort of way.
As is TJ's beating and beating and beating a dead horse.

[MOWGLI]

So, let me get this straight. This Hiking Humor thread has gone from beating up on WF, and now its all about beating up on R&R. I guess some folks aren't happy unless they are attacking SOMEBODY. Yeah - I've done that a time or three myself.

If ever a thread has outlived it's usefulness, this is it! Wait.... was it ever useful?

[smokymtnsteve]

maybe we could get Sgt. Rock to start another group similiar to the Non-At forums we could call it "INTO THE CAMPFIRE" :eek: :mad: ;)

this would be the place for us to take our flame wars.

[Youngblood]

Question: If the contestents believe that the winner of an argument is based on who posts last... does it ever end?

Answer: Apparently not.

[TJ aka Teej]

As is TJ's beating and beating and beating a dead horse.Your horse sure keeps putting out a lot of horse****, being dead and all.

[One Leg]

Even a dead horse can still be used for something good. That's where dogfood and glue alledgedly come from. This thread, however, couldn't be used as trail toilet paper.

[Kozmic Zian]

:confused: The Thing Is Andy.......We gots ta' Stop While We Ahead. If we didn't have WF to harang daily it'd be Sombody or Something Else, right? Life goes on for most of us, although WF has, through his own known behavior, seemingly, 'bitten the (proverbial) nose off to spite himself'......oh, well....Let the music play.KZ@:o

[steve hiker]

:confused: Life goes on for most of us, although WF has, through his own known behavior, seemingly, 'bitten the (proverbial) nose off to spite himself'......oh, well....Let the music play.KZ@:o
I've never understood this. First, why would someone want to spite themself? Also how do you spite yourself, is that the same thing as smiting yourself? How does biting one's nose off come into play, and how do you bite your own nose off unless you have a really bad case of buckteeth? And why would you need to bite your nose off first before to spiting yourself? :-?

[Hyway]

Excuse this uneducated fool, but I have two questions:

Is "The Purpose" anything like "The Force?"

What is Wingfoot's position, other than being this mystical "The Purpose"? I keep reading that he has his own view of how the trail should be used, but don't see anyone actaully stating his views. Is there a thread on WB that actually debates his positions?

[smokymtnsteve]

One thing that wingfoot is adamant about is NO trail magic, keep your trail majick intown. (of course wingfoot was VERY grateful for trail majick he recieved on one of his early attempts, esp.the one where he had blisters before getting to Neel's gap and no moleskin in his first aid kit)

wingfoot also wants to see the trail bypass all trail towns.

[Hyway]

Who gets to define Trail Magic? Is a ride from a raod crossing into town Magic?

[smokymtnsteve]

Who gets to define Trail Magic? Is a ride from a raod crossing into town Magic?

at TP the great and powerful Wingfoot gets to define trail majick.

[Hyway]

ah, good thing its not a virtual hike then.

[weary]

Excuse this uneducated fool, but I have two questions:

Is "The Purpose" anything like "The Force?"

What is Wingfoot's position, other than being this mystical "The Purpose"? I keep reading that he has his own view of how the trail should be used, but don't see anyone actaully stating his views. Is there a thread on WB that actually debates his positions?
Your best bet is to just go to Trailplace. Read Wingfoot's pitch about how he operates. Essentially, he says his site is run like a special interest publication, with him as the editor.

Essentially he argues that there is only one "Appalachian Trail," which is the corridor laid out by the National Park Service and the National Forest in response to Congress passing nearly 40 years ago the National Scenic Trail system. ( I have the name of the law wrong, but it doesn't matter)

Being the editor he doesn't let anyone argue that his position is wrong. (Legally, of course, he is right) The debate is philosophical. He doesn't care how you choose to hike. But he doesn't want to run a website that promotes lieing on ATC 2,000 miler applications.

Despite these biases, it is a good site that offers good information on backpacking, the AT, and from time to time trail advocacy matters.

Weary

[The Weasel]

A very dumb statement in complete contempt of MacKaye, total AT history, ATC, and my intelligence. Well, Rootsie's comment just evokes all kinds of responses, as well as this fundamental question: Is it possible that this was a stupid question that was only in contempt of Rootsie's intelligence, but not the rest?


If people prefer shallow remarks like this they are entitled to them, but that doesn't mean they're not a group of wise asses looking to trip up somebody with serious intent. This remark fails to recognize the fact that, as Sigmund Freud once admitted, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Just because some people are shallow and "wise asses" doesn't mean they aren't correct; as I've said above, "even a stopped watch is right twice a day."


MacKaye and his meaning are out there. It's obvious Old Fart, Jack and others can't stand it. Which means they can't stand what the Trail was founded for and ATC pursues. Do they have to? I didn't see any "Members Only" sign at Springer.

The Weasel

[saimyoji]

Even a dead horse can still be used for something good. That's where dogfood and glue alledgedly come from....
Don't forget gelatin. :D

[Hyway]

weary, I have been to his site, but usually just peruse the threads. I am not a frequent lurker so I haven't seen any smack downs on posters. I didn't read any of his own positions either. Just wanted to get a handle on exactly what his opinions are. Thanks for the info. I can dig his idea of not wanting to water down the 2000 miler certification though. Its kind of like climbing Everest. Once upon a time it was a major accomplishment, but now anyone with $$$$$ and in reasonable shape has a very good chance of making it to the top and back. The AT seems to be getting the same way. Though both endeavors seem to require a mental decision to do it at all cost.

[weary]

So, let me get this straight. This Hiking Humor thread has gone from beating up on WF, and now its all about beating up on R&R?
Wrong. It never was a hiking humor thread. It was subtefuge attempt, using pseudo humor, in order to attack someone whose ideas they disagreed with.

[Hyway]

so this is a politics thread?

[weary]

"MacKaye and his meaning are out there."
.... And you're right.....Mackaye and his meaning ARE out there; this information can be found by examining the man's life and works, most of which are in print and remain freely available for study.
....
We need to remember that in his original essay, Mackaye was making his proposal in a trade magazine for planners. Like most of us he almost certainly directed his comments to the interests of his audience.

Roderick Nash, who wrote the seminal "Wilderness and the American Mind," an examination of the concept of wilderness from earliest cultures through the early 1970s, had this to say about Mackaye's essay.

"MacKaye, a pioneer regional planner, quoted from Aldo Leopold, and expressed his own concern for providing outdoor recreation space, "primeval areas" which would help stem the "metropolitan invasion and the spread of its mechanical environment."

IN furtherance of this aim, Nash says, MacKaye began his campaign for an Appalachain Trail, providing Americans with a chance to hike wild country close to home. Later, Nash reports that MacKaye attempted to persuade Bob Marshall to join him in opposing skyline drives.

Nash also writes, "as early as 1921 Benton MacKaye advocated a nationwide system of wilderness belts along mountain *ridges...."

A careful reading of Nash makes it clear that MacKaye and other wilderness advocates sought a balance between civilization and wilderness. JUdging by a quote in the "Living Wilderness" magazine, MacKaye in 1946 saw in Americans a desire to be simultaneously "the pioneer, the husbandman, [and] the townsman."

Effective environmental planning, MacKaye concluded, must permit man to indulge "the three sides of his inward nature."
MacKaye adds that just as he enjoys the high lights of Broadway, he also enjoys the aroma of new mown hay, and the "the frog chorus in the dank and distant moskeg." MacKaye calls wilderness preserves "an integral part of a balanced, civilized terriotory, just as tilled lands and city blocks are."

MacKaye didn't want society to revert to cavemen or pioneers, but rather to have wild places "to recharge depleted human batteries directly from Mother Earth." Periodic recourse to wilderness, MacKaye said, "is not to retreat into silent sanctums to escape a wicked world; it is to take breath amid efforts to forge a better world."

Weary

[SGT Rock]

so this is a politics thread?


Naw, it is another "Vent about WF thread". They happen from time to time.

Personally I am starting to feel like that line from Kurt Vonnegut about being anti-war. Being anti-war is like being anti-hurricane, it doesn't make any difference, they will happen anyway (or something like that).

Being against these sorts of threads never stops them, they happen anyway.

But, being against WF is sort of the same way, he still happens no matter what.

[steve hiker]

Personally I am starting to feel like that line from Kurt Vonnegut about being anti-war. Being anti-war is like being anti-hurricane, it doesn't make any difference, they will happen anyway (or something like that).
That's a good one. Reminds me of the observation that some of the best humor came out during the Great Depression. And some of the best literature came out of the Vietnam era. I look at this as a humor thread. But I don't quite know if I'd elevate it to a literature thread. :rolleyes:

[smokymtnsteve]

GW BUSH and Co. are the main cause of Hurricanes. :D

[saimyoji]

...and tsunami, right? :datz

[smokymtnsteve]

...and tsunami, right? :datz

of course :banana

[ed bell]

Wrong. It never was a hiking humor thread. It was subtefuge attempt, using pseudo humor, in order to attack someone whose ideas they disagreed with.


I had posted earlier that this thread started in Hiking Humor. Weary is correct here. I have to say that most people on the internet who have a problem with Mr. Bruce are ones who were tossed off his website. I am aware that some have other reasons for their conflicts. I am confused, however, that the "Purpose of the Trail" has become the subject of this thread. Here we go again on this one. I've seen this thread before, when it was called "ATC trail guidelines". Oh wait, I mean "AT thru-hiking slackpacking (ONLY $10,120)".:confused:

[Rocks 'n Roots]

No, no Ed. The thread was about "opportunity"...


:D

[Rocks 'n Roots]

The answer to this problem is to read Weary's excellent post quoting MacKaye's wilderness intentions and then look at the giant non-response-void left by blowhards like Jack and others. These are people who say they know about MacKaye but just don't want to discuss it with wretched characters like myself. Well, Weary made a nicely written soft-toned post about MacKaye and his obvious and quoted wilderness intentions. Not one of these goons answered it. Including the "he really pegged you there" ones that I stopped reading at that line...


The unstated problem here is that Wingfoot insists (whether properly or not) the total, functional, and designed Appalachian Trail be followed enthusiastically by those who attend his site and the AT. Something that is obviously beyond most AT internet users as shown in this thread. Perhaps he goes too far with purism and site conduct and rules, but he still maintains a forum dedicated to important Trail values. Something the great unwashed of the Trail can't seem to reconcile...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Decided to read it:



Pray tell me Roks; what did Mackaye envision that we should be doing right now that we aren't? Plus! Mackaye is not the definitive authority of the direction, scope and range that the caretakers of the AT should take! Prove to anyone that he is that deity. You can't, of course.


Kind of disrespectful of someone to whom we owe the AT Mr Lincoln. What we should be doing is trying to preserve the wilderness ethic MacKaye wanted implanted in AT users minds. That means actively pursuing the Trail's goals like land preservation and Trail wildness. It isn't that difficult. ATC does it every day (albeit quietly).



We live in another era; that one that Mr. Mackaye never experienced.

The beauty of MacKaye's plan was that the Trail's protected wilderness corridor would grown in value as its surroundings grew in contrast. That's the whole idea of the Trail Jack. You act as if it was wrong.




You want a hero or something?


Jack one of the main reasons MacKaye is a hero to me is because he created something that people who reject him, deny him, and generally unjustly fail to credit him for, enjoy and thrive on without realizing it.





Go hiking on the AT Roks. You aren't going to change it by doing so, nor will you have anything but positive experiences while out there. Of this, I am confident.

Peace bro..


Jack Lincoln

Did it in 1986. Maintained for over ten years including building trail solo and Wildcat Shelter. The AT has enough hikers. It sorely lacks advocates...

[The Old Fhart]

Glad to see that Rocks has finally got this thread back to humor. In a great set-up he says:

post #133 But the personal name-calling already gave that away.
Post #140 …..anyone with a good knowledge of the Trail would see that your post and intention is purely ad hominem and personal while mine refers to MacKaye and his purpose for the Trail. (emphasis mine)followed by the punch lines of:
-Now try to articulate a respectful answer without "spewing" yourself...
-Since people are averse or hostile to discussing that I think I've proven my point.
-I think we've finally exposed your contempt towards the subject and hostile intent minus a full understanding of what is being discussed.
-A very dumb statement in complete contempt of MacKaye, total AT history, ATC, and my intelligence.
-blowhards like Jack and others.
-Not one of these goons answered it.
-Something the great unwashed of the Trail can't seem to reconcile...
Seeing you are incapable of supplying any quotes from MacKaye, I suppose you also won’t be able to show where MacKaye refers to “blowhards, “goons, “and “the great unwashed of the trail” either. Glad to see you stay on the high road. :D

[SGT Rock]

So if I wash, then I'm good right :-?

[smokymtnsteve]

Being a proud member of Landover Baptist, I thought I should share the WORD with you, just so you understand!


http://www.landoverbaptist.net/forums/


An introduction by Pastor Deacon Fred:

This is a True Christian™ Community Message Board for members of the Landover Baptist Church. It is invisioned and powered by the Holy Ghost. As such, we do not tolerate the unsaved, Mary Worshippers, Wiccans, Satanists, Lutherans, Mormons, or any cult or person under the influence of Satan. Kindly leave now! And be about the Devil's business, for you are not welcome in the house of the Godly!

Pastor Deacon Fred

************************************************** **************
An article by Pastor Tom Casten:

Good day Godly ladies and gentlemen.

I'd like to thank you for taking a few moments to read this thread.

For those who don't know me, I am fairly new to this board. I'd like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to those who pay the bills here for allowing me to roam about. I am neither a Moderator nor an Administrator on this board; I'm just a regular Visitor (also known as an Unpaying Guest).

I've noticed a lot of complaining on OTHER boards regarding the issue of Free Speech. I believe there might be a misunderstanding as to what exactly a Visitor (also known as an Unpaying Guest) is entitled to when they login to this board. I am going to attempt to clear up any confusion about this particular topic.

Explanation

As a Visitor (also known as an Unpaying Guest) to this board, you are entitled to the following inalienable rights:

1.

No, I didn't type in white font, nor was it edited out by anyone.
I'll restate it another way:

You have no rights. You only have privileges.

The owner of the board is GOD.
GOD, and those who are part of His Staff, can make and change the rules as they see fit, at any given time, with or without prior notice.

As a Visitor (also known as an Unpaying Guest) to this board, you are granted the privilege of reading topics and posting replies. If GOD's representatives decide, for any reason whatsoever, to remove some or all of those privileges, then guess what?

***********
* That's life. *
***********

You don't have to like it.
You don't have to agree with it.
You don't have to think it's fair.
You don't have to understand why it was done.
You don't have the right to an explanation.

You may feel whatever you choose.
You may even attempt to seek an explanation.
But you are not entitled to one.

You are entitled to nothing.
You are doomed to Hell and you had better get to repenting.

If you don't like it, there are millions of other web pages you can visit, and thousands of other chat boards.

As an alternative, you can start your own chat board, pay the bills, and appoint your very own Staff. There's nothing stopping you but the effort. Sadly, you still won't be GOD.

Conclusion

Thank you again for your attention. I certainly hope this has cleared up any confusion regarding the "right" to Free Speech on this board.

[SGT Rock]

Only you would know about this group Steve. What has the goddess got to say about all that?

[smokymtnsteve]

Only you would know about this group Steve. What has the goddess got to say about all that?
Which Goddess?

[max patch]

Landover Baptist is NOT a church.

It is a so called parody or joke site that attempts to make churchs in general and Baptists in particular look bad.

[The Old Fhart]

"Landover Baptist is NOT a church."


Does this mean that it's too late for me to get my sizeable donation back? :D

[Mags]

Later in life, Mackaye was asked "What is the purpose of the Appalachian Trail?"

His response "There are three things: to walk, to see, and to see what you see."

My preference has always been for the simple, the unadonred and to the point.

I like Mackayes quote. In one sentence he summed up the AT experience.. No pontification, no shooting from the hip, no insulting.

For those whose primary hiking exposure is the Internet a walk, toee and see what you see may be in order. :)

[Hyway]

"Landover Baptist is NOT a church."


Does this mean that it's too late for me to get my sizeable donation back? :D
Are you trying to suggest that "Landover Baptist" is a pseudonym for a hiking hooker?

[smokymtnsteve]

Landover Baptist is NOT a church.

It is a so called parody or joke site that attempts to make churchs in general and Baptists in particular look bad.

Yes Landover IS a church, I am a member, Who are you to decide what a church is or isn't. You think LANDOVER is trying to make someone else look bad, they teach directly from the WORD! Now U might not like what the WORD really says, but it is the WORD!

[ripple]

here people can look and decide for themselves

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

[SGT Rock]

Well, at least it is humor of a sort, even if you don't find it funny. :-?

Wait, then maybe it isn't humor. I am so confused :datz:

[smokymtnsteve]

It's not funny Rock..I was born and raised a Baptist, went to little mtn churchs all my growing up years, Landover is TRUE to the teachings of my childhood.

[steve hiker]

This is a True Christian™ Community Message Board for members of the Landover Baptist Church. It is invisioned and powered by the Holy Ghost. As such, we do not tolerate the unsaved, Mary Worshippers, Wiccans, Satanists, Lutherans, Mormons, or any cult or person under the influence of Satan. Kindly leave now! And be about the Devil's business, for you are not welcome in the house of the Godly! Amen!

Should be like that in this house of sinners and blasphemers.

[smokymtnsteve]

you are so right willk, some of these folk who say that My Church isn't a church should take the bible quiz ,,, that way they can know the TRUTH as it is written in the WORD!

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/quizlist.html

[Dances with Mice]

Bringing together all the elements of a good joke: Camping, Baptists, and of course, toilet humor:
------------------------------------
There was a nice lady, a minister's widow, who was a little old fashioned. She was planning a week's vacation at a popular campground. But she wanted to make sure of the accommodations first. Uppermost in her mind were bathroom facilities, but she couldn't bring herself to write "toilet" in a letter. After considerable deliberation, she settled on "bathroom commode," but when she wrote that down, it still sounded too forward, so, after the first page of her letter, she referred to the bathroom commode as "BC."

"Does the cabin where I will be staying have its own 'BC'? If not, where is the 'BC' located?" is what she actually wrote.

The campground owner took the first page of the letter and the lady's check and gave it to his secretary. He put the remainder of the letter on the desk of the senior member of his staff without noticing that the staffer would have no way of knowing what "BC" meant. Then the owner went off to town to run some errands.

The staff member came in after lunch, found the letter, and was baffled by the euphemism, so he showed the letter around to several counselors, but they couldn't decipher it either. The staff member's wife, who knew that the lady was the widow of a famous Baptist preacher, was sure that it must be a question about the local Baptist Church. "Of course," the first staffer exclaimed, "'BC' stands for 'Baptist Church.' "And he sat down and wrote:

Dear Madam,

I regret very much the delay in answering your letter, but I now take the pleasure in informing you that the BC is located nine miles north of the campground and is capable of seating 250 people at one time. I admit it is quite a distance away if you are in the habit of going regularly, but no doubt you will be pleased to know that a great number of people take their lunches along and make a day of it. They usually arrive early and stay late.

The last time my wife and I went was six years ago, and it was so crowded we had to stand up the whole time we were there. It may interest you to know that right now there is a supper planned to raise money to buy more seats. They are going to hold it in the basement of the 'BC.'

I would like to say that it pains me very much not to be able to go more regularly, but it is surely no lack of desire on my part. As we grow older, it seems to be more of an effort, particularly in cold weather.

If you decide to come down to our campground, perhaps I could go with you the first time, sit with you, and introduce you to all the folks. Remember, this is a friendly community."

[Jack Tarlin]

Been away for a few days; nice to see that nothing much has changed:

Quick note to Rocks:

It's now noon on Tuesday.

I'll give you 24 hours to print some direct quotes from MacKaye where he gives a statement of purpose regarding the Trail that agrees with what you've been squawking about for months now.

So here's a challenge: You've been saying repeatedly that folks who disagree with you are blowhards, goons, and that they hold the Trail in contempt. You have effectively stated that only YOU know what MacKaye's true purpose and intentions were, and that because your familiarity with his works is so extensive, only YOU are fit to discuss the matter, and therefore, only YOu are in a unique position to correct and lecture the rest of us.

OK, RocKs, you're the all knowing expert. We kneel in awe and reverence in acknowledgment of your encyclopedic knowledge of the works, and therefore, the intentions, of the founder of the A.T., Benton MacKaye.

Now prove it.

Oh, if you fail to do this, you have to promise not to ever discuss this matter again til you prove you're competent to do so, but since we all know about your vast knowledge and education regarding the history of the Trail, surely, this small challenge won't prove to be a problem.

Or will it? Anyway, Rocks, clock's ticking. You've told us fifty times what MacKaye reallly meant. If you're right, let's see you prove it in his own words.
Oh, and please don't tell us that you lost the pertinent book or that the dog ate your magazine collection. We've heard that one before. This time, we want direct quotes from YOU, the expert.

You really know what MacKaye intended and meant? Prove it.

Otherwise, for God's sake, give it a rest.

[JoeHiker]

Tick tock
Tick tock.

[Dances with Mice]

A group of AT hikers left a shelter in the morning paired off in two's for the day. That night one of the hikers came to the next shelter alone, staggering under the weight of two packs.

"Where's Henry?" one of the others asked.

"Henry had a stroke of some kind. He's a couple of miles back up the trail."

"What?!? You left Henry laying out there and carried his pack in?

"Yeah, it was a tough call," nodded the hiker, "but I figured no one is going to steal Henry."

[Dances with Mice]

I confused the "Bash Wingfoot" humor thread which evolved into the RoxyRoot Show with the "Guns and Cell Phones" humor thread that evolved into the "Cold Dead Fingers" Seminar. I meant to place the previous posts on the other thread.

My mistake. Do carry on.

[bulldog49]

Wrong. It never was a hiking humor thread. It was subtefuge attempt, using pseudo humor, in order to attack someone whose ideas they disagreed with.


No, you are wrong. It was funny, only someone who lacks a sense of humor would think otherwise. No one is above being poked fun of, especially the pompous.

[One Leg]

Godly Tips on How to Punish and Beat Your Christian Child
"Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being." Proverbs 20:30

From the Landover Baptist Department of Creation Science

1. To begin with, a Christian parent must understand that a child will never learn a lesson unless they are beaten on their naked bottoms until the imprint of the rugged cross is plainly visible on both cheeks. (Proverbs 23:13-14) A clothed bottom is less humiliating and less painful for the wicked child. In fact, the child may feel no pain at all if they are cunning enough to sin while wearing heavy jeans or khaki pants. A youngster who can sit comfortably after a Godly beating will think they have outsmarted you and tend to repeat their misdeed and feel a license to move on to more hardcore sins, like rape and blasphemy. If a child is able to sit down within three days without ointment or a bag of frozen vegetables after their punishment, you have failed as a Christian parent. A good spanking should be traumatic and something the child will remember well into adulthood.

2. Use a heavy object, a ruler is too light, a belt-buckle may cause bleeding and suspicion from liberal democrat schoolteachers if you are careless enough to allow your child to attend a public school. We suggest a heavy King James 1611 authentic cowhide leather bound Bible.

3. Find a comfortable place to sit and ask your child to come over and have a seat on your lap. Act as if there is nothing amiss. We suggest that you smile or wink at your child. If it is your daughter, say "Come on over here and sit on daddy's lap, sweet heart. I want to talk to my little angel for a minute." If it is your son, we suggest you say, "Hey there, sonny - how's Dad's little quarterback? Come on over here and sit on my lap for a minute and let's talk about Jesus."

4. As soon as you have the child on your lap, clench his hands so that he cannot move. Immediately flip the child over so that his stomach is across your knees. If the child struggles, give him a good whack across the back of his head and tell him to shut up. Whisper in his ear, "You're going to get a whole lot worse from Jesus, you rebellious, hateful, little sissy!"

5. This is the point where the child may act like a little demon and start screaming. Be prepared for this wicked outburst. Have an athletic sock in your back pocket and cram it into the child's mouth. Stuff it back until you get to the stripes at the top of the socks. Don't worry: if the child is smart enough to remember to breath through their nose, they won't suffocate.

6. Ready your Bible, and lift it high above your head with one hand. Keep the child secure with your free hand. Landover Baptist Creation Scientists agree that the most effective way of securing the child for beating is to clench the back of his neck like a turkey. If they are still struggling, we suggest you raise your voice and say something like, "I'll give you something to squirm over, you little devil!"

7. Pull down their pants and underwear to reveal their pink little hiney. May sure both cheeks are fully exposed.

8. To ensure that the child is aware of their misdeed, and they never forget it, it is often best to smack the child across the bottom with the Bible as you speak out their misdeed. Each word would be one healthy whack across their naked hind quarters. For example: "YOU" [WHACK!] "DIDN'T" [WHACK!] "EAT" [WHACK] "YOUR" [WHACK] "BRUSSEL" [WHACK] "SPROUTS" [WHACK!] "YOU" [WHACK!] "LITTLE" [WHACK!] "DEMON!" [WACK!] and finishing off with a lighter whack, "did" [whack!] "you?" [whack!]

9. Rebuke the child in the sweet name of Jesus, toss them aside like a used Kleenex and let them roll to the floor to contemplate their sinful nature.

10. After about an hour, when the child has calmed down, have him sit on your lap again and read him some scripture verses about Hell (We recommend, Matthew 13:41-42) from the same Bible you used to beat him with. Let the child know that the punishment he received today is nothing compared to the eternal punishment of Hell where Jesus burns and cooks all the bad little boys and girls who don't do what their daddy tells them.

[One Leg]

It's not funny Rock..I was born and raised a Baptist, went to little mtn churchs all my growing up years, Landover is TRUE to the teachings of my childhood.

Steve,

What's funny/ironic about this is that I, too, was raised up very much the same way. I still attend an Independent Baptist Church, but have learned to discern between the Pastor's preferences and his convictions.....

BTW: Does this now mean that we no longer have to stand for the gospel of Abbey, but rather, Landover Baptist instead?

[smokymtnsteve]

Steve,

What's funny/ironic about this is that I, too, was raised up very much the same way. I still attend an Independent Baptist Church, but have learned to discern between the Pastor's preferences and his convictions.....

BTW: Does this now mean that we no longer have to stand for the gospel of Abbey, but rather, Landover Baptist instead?

Yea, religion is a trip isn't it :D

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Sorry Jack but that tired old strawman isn't working. It's you who has had several months worth of time to respond to what has already been shown numerous times. The travesty here is that people like yourself, who have done nothing but pose caustic personal attacks against those who promote the philosophical AT, attempt to grant themselves credibility and a position of AT judgment. Meanwhile the excuse has been reached that will aid those looking to avoid facts about MacKaye that exist and are widely available to anyone who is seriously interested. Weary has more than adequately shown them as have others. Your problem Jack is that you are standing as a person who seeks to undermine or deny known facts about MacKaye and the Trail. In effect, you're attacking the AT not R&R.

This thread left off where you were called out to answer Weary's quotes from Nash. You responded with yet another of your angry strawmen. It isn't working Jack. Let's not fool ourselves that you can't stand the philosophical AT and will attack anyone who mentions it (which was my main point)...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Later in life, Mackaye was asked "What is the purpose of the Appalachian Trail?"

His response "There are three things: to walk, to see, and to see what you see."


I wonder what MacKaye would have said to those who, when hearing Trail members express his wilderness imperative, answered "let's keep this a hiking list"?


It's not surprising to me that those who want the AT to be as shallow and undefined as possible in order to serve their lax level of concern prefer simple quotes from MacKaye when so much more is available from the same man. Mags, what do you think MacKaye would have said if the interviewer asked him about Skyline Drive or his wilderness ethic?

[Mags]

RnR, I'd rather not have a discussion with someone who insults me.

I can have a discussion with somone who disagrees with me, but not someone who uses insults in the discussions with me.

Thanks, and have a good day.

[smokymtnsteve]

some of my favorite folks is folks who disagree with me ;)

[Jack Tarlin]

I'm not interested in what Weary has to say about this, Rocks. I wasn't addressing my comments to Weary, so stop hiding behind the one person who occasionally speaks in your behalf.

I'm interested in hearing what YOU have to say. Since you're our resident expert on the life and works of Benton MacKaye, this simple request shouldn't cause you any trouble.

For months now, on half a dozen different threads, you've been fiercely telling us what MacKaye thought, wrote, and said.

You have now, quite directly, been asked to back up anything you've said with any statements of MacKaye's that would corroborate your pronouncements, and would also serve to tell us that you're actually familiar with the man's writings, works, and philosophies.

Within a few hours of receiving this simple request, you pronounce it a "straw man" and flatly refuse to address the question.

I'll give you one last chance, and then we'll simply have to dismiss you as you've effectively acknowledged and admitted what folks have been saying for months: You don't have the right to comment on MacKaye's life and works, nor do you have the right to lecture or criticze others for alledgedly betraying his goals, and the reason you don't have the right to make these statements is because when pressed, it's patently obvious to everyone here that at the end of the day, you're completely ignorant of what he actually thought and wrote, and when asked a simple question, you are singularly unable to back up one single thing you've been saying here.

But I'm a nice guy. You get one more chance.

Otherwise, we'll simply have to do what we should have done months ago, and that's to ignore you.

So c'mon Rocks. Put up or shut up. This isn't a straw man. Instead, it's a very easy way to prove your critics wrong, and it's a very easy way to let us know that we should actually be treating your comments here with appreciation and respect, instead of the scorn that is properly accorded ignorant, un-educated and un-supported posturing.

So speak up. Surely, with 20-odd hours at your disposal, you're more than anxious to silence your critics, back up everything you've said, and prove to us that you're competent to speak on this subject.

But why do I have this nagging feeling that you're going to come up with an excuse not to do so.

Ball's in your court, son, but the clock is ticking. If you want run away from this, go ahead, but an old French proverb comes to mind: "C'est l'homme qui s'excuse, s'accuse." Or in simple English, Rocks, "The man who excuses himself accuses himself."

If you want to ignore this and go back under your rock (or root, as the case may be), feel free, but know that in doing so, you have effectively admitted that on this subject, as on many others, you are simply incapable of backing up your statements and prononcements with anything resembling facts or data, and have, in effect, admitted that your postings here are nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking.

If you can prove what you've been saying, please take this opportunity to do so.

Otherwise, feel free to shut the hell up.

[Mags]

some of my favorite folks is folks who disagree with me ;)


Heck..disagreement is good. But, nothing is accomplished when insults are the only form of conversation.

[ed bell]

We need to remember that in his original essay, Mackaye was making his proposal in a trade magazine for planners. Like most of us he almost certainly directed his comments to the interests of his audience.

Roderick Nash, who wrote the seminal "Wilderness and the American Mind," an examination of the concept of wilderness from earliest cultures through the early 1970s, had this to say about Mackaye's essay.

"MacKaye, a pioneer regional planner, quoted from Aldo Leopold, and expressed his own concern for providing outdoor recreation space, "primeval areas" which would help stem the "metropolitan invasion and the spread of its mechanical environment."

IN furtherance of this aim, Nash says, MacKaye began his campaign for an Appalachain Trail, providing Americans with a chance to hike wild country close to home. Later, Nash reports that MacKaye attempted to persuade Bob Marshall to join him in opposing skyline drives.

Nash also writes, "as early as 1921 Benton MacKaye advocated a nationwide system of wilderness belts along mountain *ridges...."

A careful reading of Nash makes it clear that MacKaye and other wilderness advocates sought a balance between civilization and wilderness. JUdging by a quote in the "Living Wilderness" magazine, MacKaye in 1946 saw in Americans a desire to be simultaneously "the pioneer, the husbandman, [and] the townsman."

Effective environmental planning, MacKaye concluded, must permit man to indulge "the three sides of his inward nature."
MacKaye adds that just as he enjoys the high lights of Broadway, he also enjoys the aroma of new mown hay, and the "the frog chorus in the dank and distant moskeg." MacKaye calls wilderness preserves "an integral part of a balanced, civilized terriotory, just as tilled lands and city blocks are."

MacKaye didn't want society to revert to cavemen or pioneers, but rather to have wild places "to recharge depleted human batteries directly from Mother Earth." Periodic recourse to wilderness, MacKaye said, "is not to retreat into silent sanctums to escape a wicked world; it is to take breath amid efforts to forge a better world."

Weary

A thoughtful, well written and insightful post written about MacKaye. I like what Weary has shared with us here. I think nobody responded to it, because no one had a problem with it. The final paragraph sums up some of the reasons I love backpacking more than any other activity, or hobby that I spend my spare time on.

Mags, I love that quote you shared as well. It's obvious to me that Mr. Roots just can't stand the members of this website, and does not care to engage in thoughtful dialog. He is a patronizing troll and a tireless rebutter. I can feel another post coming as I sit here. He will probably tell me I show nothing but contempt for the AT since I would dare think to enjoy backpacking on it.:mad:

[smokymtnsteve]

Heck..disagreement is good. But, nothing is accomplished when insults are the only form of conversation.

yea I can dig that mags ...the internet with it's addicitive qualities seems to bring this out in alot of folks,

this is one of the reasons I'm returning to AK...

I'm going to spend this summer peeling logs, cutting firewood, and get away from this computer ...

aldous huxley said something like "Life is short and information endless"

now to top that off we have the internet.


my koan

"I want it all...I want nothing at all"

[orangebug]

Where is that Top Ten RnR Responses message?

We ought to run a pool on which one is coming next.

[weary]

I'm not interested in what Weary has to say about this, Rocks. I wasn't addressing my comments to Weary, so stop hiding behind the one person who occasionally speaks in your behalf.

I'm interested in hearing what YOU have to say. Since you're our resident expert on the life and works of Benton MacKaye, this simple request shouldn't cause you any trouble.

For months now, on half a dozen different threads, you've been fiercely telling us what MacKaye thought, wrote, and said.

You have now, quite directly, been asked to back up anything you've said with any statements of MacKaye's that would corroborate your pronouncements, and would also serve to tell us that you're actually familiar with the man's writings, works, and philosophies.

Within a few hours of receiving this simple request, you pronounce it a "straw man" and flatly refuse to address the question.

I'll give you one last chance, and then we'll simply have to dismiss you as you've effectively acknowledged and admitted what folks have been saying for months: You don't have the right to comment on MacKaye's life and works, nor do you have the right to lecture or criticze others for alledgedly betraying his goals, and the reason you don't have the right to make these statements is because when pressed, it's patently obvious to everyone here that at the end of the day, you're completely ignorant of what he actually thought and wrote, and when asked a simple question, you are singularly unable to back up one single thing you've been saying here.

But I'm a nice guy. You get one more chance.

Otherwise, we'll simply have to do what we should have done months ago, and that's to ignore you.

So c'mon Rocks. Put up or shut up. This isn't a straw man. Instead, it's a very easy way to prove your critics wrong, and it's a very easy way to let us know that we should actually be treating your comments here with appreciation and respect, instead of the scorn that is properly accorded ignorant, un-educated and un-supported posturing.

So speak up. Surely, with 20-odd hours at your disposal, you're more than anxious to silence your critics, back up everything you've said, and prove to us that you're competent to speak on this subject.

But why do I have this nagging feeling that you're going to come up with an excuse not to do so.

Ball's in your court, son, but the clock is ticking. If you want run away from this, go ahead, but an old French proverb comes to mind: "C'est l'homme qui s'excuse, s'accuse." Or in simple English, Rocks, "The man who excuses himself accuses himself."

If you want to ignore this and go back under your rock (or root, as the case may be), feel free, but know that in doing so, you have effectively admitted that on this subject, as on many others, you are simply incapable of backing up your statements and prononcements with anything resembling facts or data, and have, in effect, admitted that your postings here are nothing more than speculation and wishful thinking.
.....
Jack. I'm just a friend of the trail, helping a friend of the trail express himself more precisely.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

Later in life, Mackaye was asked "What is the purpose of the Appalachian Trail?"

His response "There are three things: to walk, to see, and to see what you see."Wonderful words from Ben MacKaye, reflecting back over many decades and two thousand miles of Trail, seeing clearly what there was to see.

[TJ aka Teej]

"There are three things: to walk, to see, and to see what you see."
And dismissed as "lax" "simple" "shallow" and "undefined" by some anonymous person whose only known connection to the AT is Internet vandalism.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Just wanted to say.....Everyonce and a while one of these, I'll call them 'Yahoos' get on the 'Blaze just to see how hot and flamey they can get things. Remember JBL and his gun flame, now we have RnR and his 'MacKaye' flame. Seems like to me, like the 'WF' flame, the best thing to do is to ignore. All the guys responding to this thread should just withdraw and ignore, he'll go away when nobody responds, just as JBL did. Real hikers don't waste time with such drivel. Too busy getting in shape and finding out what's happening up the Mountain to worry about this BS. What difference could it possibly make weather or not Roots is the authority on MacKaye or not. Maybe Jack called it right, he's just a 'forum blazer' going from blog to blog, finding something to cause a stir about. What a waste of time and energy. KZ@

[SGT Rock]

KZ,

In JLB's defense, he did bow out gracefully like a gentlemen.

[TJ aka Teej]

I'm just a friend of the trail, helping a friend of the trail express himself more precisely.Qui s'excuse, s'accuse. N'est-ce pas?

[MOWGLI]

"to walk, to see, and to see what you see."


Wonderful words from Ben MacKaye, reflecting back over many decades and two thousand miles of Trail, seeing clearly what there was to see.

I wonder what Bill Irwin would think of that quote. Seriously. Puts things in a different perspective, doesn't it?

[Mags]

"to walk, to see, and to see what you see."



I wonder what Bill Irwin would think of that quote. Seriously. Puts things in a different perspective, doesn't it?


Bill may not have seen the trail in a literal sense, but I think he would say he saw it in a figurative sense. The sounds, the smells, the feels all seemed to have created a mental image for him that is still vivid. Saw thim speak once; that is the impression I get anyway.

For myself, "seeing" the trail was more than just the sunsets, the fog surrounding the rolling green hills, the lush green.

It was the feel of sunshine on my face after many days of rain. The sound of a lake lapping at the shore. The smell of the damp earth after a rainstorm.

"Seeing" the trail was a feeling in my heart and soul telling me that the Applachian Trail was where I wanted to be.

I was accused of using a simple and shallow quote.

It was indeed a simple quote.

But like a haiku, a Johhny Cash song or a good home cooked meal, it is a simple thing that is much deeper for its simplicity. No explanations, no adornment...just the raw feeling boiled down to its essence.

"To walk, to see and to see what you see".

That was the AT experience for me and many others. Those who've hiked some portion of the trail should recongnize that very simple but very deep truth.

[smokymtnsteve]

"But love of the wilderness is more than a hunger for what is always beyond reach; it is also an expression of loyalty to the earth which bore us and sustains us, the only home we shall ever know, the only paradise we ever need - if only we had eyes to see."

(at night when I leave cabin and watch the northern lights,,,hugging a big ole sled dog to stay warm at -28)

"I wait. Now the night flows back, the mighty stillness embraces and includes me; I can see the stars again and the world of starlight. I am twenty miles or more from the nearest fellow human, but instead of lonliness I feel loveliness. Loveliness and a quiet exultation."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

[Blue Jay]

"to walk, to see, and to see what you see."



I wonder what Bill Irwin would think of that quote. Seriously. Puts things in a different perspective, doesn't it?

The quote for Bill Irwin is "to walk, to not see and fall on your dog over and over and over" This is not a joke this is what happened for 2000 miles.

[alanthealan]

.... don't mention that there is more posts by WF ranting about Bush than hikers posting about the trail.

[Moxie00]

Congratulations, under your new name you have created a big cuddely monster.

Never forget, and you may quote me: Wingfoot is to long distance hiking exactly what Michael Jackson is to Music!:banana

[The Old Fhart]

Moxie00-"Wingfoot is to long distance hiking exactly what Michael Jackson is to Music!"I take that to only mean "The King of Long Distance Hiking" (as opposed to "The King of Pop"). As Poe said in the Raven, "Only this, and nothing more."

[smokymtnsteve]

maybe more like the Queen....long live the Queen!

[Percival]

Never forget, and you may quote me: Wingfoot is to long distance hiking exactly what Michael Jackson is to little boys
:banana :banana :banana

[MOWGLI]

Bill may not have seen the trail in a literal sense, but I think he would say he saw it in a figurative sense. The sounds, the smells, the feels all seemed to have created a mental image for him that is still vivid. Saw thim speak once; that is the impression I get anyway.

For myself, "seeing" the trail was more than just the sunsets, the fog surrounding the rolling green hills, the lush green.

It was the feel of sunshine on my face after many days of rain. The sound of a lake lapping at the shore. The smell of the damp earth after a rainstorm.

"Seeing" the trail was a feeling in my heart and soul telling me that the Applachian Trail was where I wanted to be.

I was accused of using a simple and shallow quote.

It was indeed a simple quote.

But like a haiku, a Johhny Cash song or a good home cooked meal, it is a simple thing that is much deeper for its simplicity. No explanations, no adornment...just the raw feeling boiled down to its essence.

"To walk, to see and to see what you see".

That was the AT experience for me and many others. Those who've hiked some portion of the trail should recongnize that very simple but very deep truth.

Mags, I really appreciate your post above. It is one of the better things I've read here in a while, and I agree fully with what you say.

My wife teaches the blind & visually impaired. We have been cooperating on a project that is resulting in a Field Trip for the blind & visually impaired students in our county. We've developed both a Tactile (braille) map, and a large print map of a small segment of the Cumberland Trail. I wrote a program for the kids about the birds of the Cumberland Trail. I had it engineered in the local NPR radio station. Its one of the things that I'm most proud of since I joined American Hiking Society two years ago.

So... my mind has been active lately thinking about how to open up the world of trails to those with either no sight, or impaired sight.

If anyone is free on Wednesday April 6 and wants to volunteer in the Chattanooga area, please drop me a PM.

[Kozmic Zian]

KZ,

In JLB's defense, he did bow out gracefully like a gentlemen. Yea....OK, didn't know about that one. Was off the net for a while. KZ@:-?

[Rocks 'n Roots]

I'm not interested in what Weary has to say about this, Rocks. I wasn't addressing my comments to Weary, so stop hiding behind the one person who occasionally speaks in your behalf.

I'm interested in hearing what YOU have to say.


You're trolling Jack. The point is won that you simply can't discuss any aspect of the philosophical Trail delivered by anyone anywhere. In fact your performance here makes me question whether you could possibly have any credible opinion of Warren Doyle, judging from your totally off-topic ad hominem approach. It appears more likely that your criticisms of him (I've never seen) are based on the same sort of opportunistic personal attacks you do here.


We can plainly see from this thread that the topic Wingfoot guards so strictly (probably to his own detriment) is most likely beyond the average AT internet member. In light of this any further discussion of MacKaye and his wilderness mechanism should probably be done in relation to the Trail's authorities and how they intend to uphold it despite the obvious indifference of Trail users.

I think what some people don't realize is that it is possible to have a totally uncensored site and still miss the point about the AT...

[Jack Tarlin]

What we plainly see is that when it comes to discussing MacKaye, his vision, and place in Trail history, Rocks, you have no credibility.

You were asked to produce some quotes or documentation to back up your repeated postings here.

You ran from the challenge, and were unable to come up with even ONE statement or quote.

You might think your point is "won" Rocks, but you're more than a bit delusional. Every single one of your arguments here is made out of glass.

You were told to put up or shut up. You didn't put up. Because you can't. You can't back up ANY of your ravings because you simply don't have the facts at your disposal, and the reason for this is simple: You haven't actually read anything by MacKaye, the man you profess to be such an authority on. The facts and statements of MacKaye that you continually bleat about simply don't exist. Why can't you admit this? If I'm wrong, prove it. If you can't, then admit it, and pipe down for awhile.

And if you're so enamored of other websites, Rocks, do us all a favor and go there.

You sure in hell don't have any credibility or any purpose over here.

[TJ aka Teej]

At noon on Tuesday, March 22nd Baltimore Jack wrote to R&R:



I'll give you 24 hours to print some direct quotes from MacKaye where he gives a statement of purpose regarding the Trail that agrees with what you've been squawking about for months now.

So here's a challenge: You've been saying repeatedly that folks who disagree with you are blowhards, goons, and that they hold the Trail in contempt. You have effectively stated that only YOU know what MacKaye's true purpose and intentions were, and that because your familiarity with his works is so extensive, only YOU are fit to discuss the matter, and therefore, only YOu are in a unique position to correct and lecture the rest of us.

OK, RocKs, you're the all knowing expert. We kneel in awe and reverence in acknowledgment of your encyclopedic knowledge of the works, and therefore, the intentions, of the founder of the A.T., Benton MacKaye.

Now prove it.

Oh, if you fail to do this, you have to promise not to ever discuss this matter again til you prove you're competent to do so, but since we all know about your vast knowledge and education regarding the history of the Trail, surely, this small challenge won't prove to be a problem.As of Friday morning, March 25th, R&R has failed to meet the challenge.
A wealth of published information about MacKaye and the Trail's history is available to anyone with a desire to read it. It is obvious that anonynous Internet poster "R&R" does not want to discuss or debate, his sole purpose on this and other forums is to be hateful, disruptive and negative.
I'll add a challenge. Will anyone who has met R&R in his "ten years" of trail maintianance, or during his "1986 hike" please step up and tell us if R&R has any actual connection to the AT? Certainly someone who is in the "top 5% of AT volunteers" has many AT friends out there. Let's hear from them. Or one, even. I'd like to know if he is as hateful and negative in person as he is when he posts to the Internet.

[MOWGLI]

I'll add a challenge. Will anyone who has met R&R in his "ten years" of trail maintianance, or during his "1986 hike" please step up and tell us if R&R has any actual connection to the AT?

Yes, some folks from the NY NJ Trail Conference that I know knew him. He helped maintain the AT in Harriman SP near the Palisades Interstate Parkway. Give it a rest Teej.

[Jack Tarlin]

Teej, I have to agree with Mowgli. This is a guy that doesn't need to be hounded.

In future, I'm merely going to try and ignore him. If has no desire to substantiate his old arguments, I haven't much interest in taking part in his new ones.

I suggest the rest of us try and do likewise.

[orangebug]

One of the benefits of WB is the Ignore Button.

[smokymtnsteve]

One of the benefits of WB is the Ignore Button.

maybe we should re-name the ignore button ,,and call it the SHUT UP button ...nothing would change , it's use would still just put the other user on
ignore, but it would give the button pusher a sense of "control" ...so by calling it the SHUT UP! button more folks would use it :datz

[Pencil Pusher]

Hey so I'll respectfully disagree with the 'benefit' of the ignore button. Why read only what you want to read? Isn't that a little like the very topic of this thread?

[TJ aka Teej]

Yes, some folks from the NY NJ Trail Conference that I know knew him. That's the first reference I've ever seen or heard (from someone other than R&R) to R&R being connected in any way at all to the AT. Why are people so reluctant to reveal they know him? Was he an insufferable putz back then too? But I agree, time to give the R&R topic a rest.

[weary]

Qui s'excuse, s'accuse. N'est-ce pas?
Sorry, TJ. You'll have to translate. I only had four years of first year French. It wasn't quite enough.

[orangebug]

Hey so I'll respectfully disagree with the 'benefit' of the ignore button. Why read only what you want to read? Isn't that a little like the very topic of this thread?No, the topic concerns censorship imposed by others. The Ignore button acknowledges that life is too short to tolerate bad beer or fools. It represents a self imposed discipline to avoid participation in pointless exchanges.

Of course, you might just enjoy the rants and ravings. HYOH

[Rocks 'n Roots]

What is obvious here is that HYOH mob members are interested in cutting down any serious discussion of AT ideas on the internet. I think, if anything, that is the most borne out thing seen in these threads. A childish process of someone trying to express something serious to the Trail Community and the less respectful pack of internet members doing their best to deny it. Anyone's whose best and only submission to discussion of the Trail's purpose is "ignore the MacKaye flame" or some other dull remark is simply proving the point. It doesn't take a genius to see that a group of childish jerks looking to screw-up a serious poster won't feel any loss if they destroy the topic. And that is what is being done here and nothing else.

The point stands that the general internet user is hostile to the real AT and gets around it with HYOH (which is mostly used to enforce Trail stupidity as Jack and others plainly show). People who are ignoring important Trail ideas in the first place are not really saying anything when they suggest ignoring discussions of Trail ideas. Unfortunately the AT has become a group of people posing as tolerant friends - up to the point that they'll attack you like savages for discussing the Trail's purpose. This is all done in order to defend a rather dumbed-down and undefined HYOH AT. One that doesn't call for intelligent backing or investigation. Case in point this or any other advocacy thread.


The topic was Wingfoot and his ways. From what I see it looks like this has become an issue of censorship or Trail advocacy. I like the fact that Whiteblaze doesn't censor people. But I also like a site where important Trail principles are shielded from the troll birrage seen on all public AT sights. Most of these nitwits wouldn't last nearly as long as Wingfoot has. Nor would they stick to a deliberately divested site. There's a reason he does that - because he believes in the AT. More than I can say for chat flamers...


Jack:

I think it's kind of obvious that most serious Trail people (including those quoted by Weary and even Weary himself) don't question MacKaye's intentions or their existence. So, no matter what form of strawman argument you make to avoid recognizing this or discussing it, you can't escape being somebody who attacks and refuses to allow that which is already known. (Tell us again how "you've forgotten more than I've ever known about MacKaye").


You would be more honest to just admit you don't care...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

That's the first reference I've ever seen or heard (from someone other than R&R) to R&R being connected in any way at all to the AT. Why are people so reluctant to reveal they know him? Was he an insufferable putz back then too?

No that's all right TJ. Completely wrong again? That's OK. No need to apologize...

Hmm, now let's figure this out. Those who show less than keen understanding don't like or understand Wingfoot. (MacKaye too) Trail connected or supporting people allow him some credit.

Hmm...

[Rocalousas]

But I agree, time to give the R&R topic a rest.
No, it's time to ramp things up. This thread has the potential to get interesting.

[TJ aka Teej]

No, it's time to ramp things up. This thread has the potential to get interesting.
No need for anyone else to do any ramping up, Roca. R&R is such an attention whore he'll vandalize any thread until it ends up all about him. When shown to be ignorant of AT history, he whines the questions weren't fair. When questioned about his sources, he sobs he can't find his books. When challenged to prove his claims, he sputters we're not worth his time. When confronted with his own words, he whimpers that people are picking on him. The AT has no room for cry babies like R&R. Like a fart at a funeral, he's hard to ignore, but just as unwelcome nonetheless.

[Moxie00]

maybe more like the Queen....long live the Queen!Why are Wingfppt and Michael Jackson alike; Both are very well known in their respective fields, each is self centered with huge egos and we all know they both displal bizarre behavior. While showing selfish trends both Wingfoot and Michael are very de;icate, impatient, intolerant and infactuated with themselves. I don't know about the young boy part, nothing has been proven.

[One Leg]

Why are Wingfppt and Michael Jackson alike; Both are very well known in their respective fields, each is self centered with huge egos and we all know they both displal bizarre behavior. While showing selfish trends both Wingfoot and Michael are very de;icate, impatient, intolerant and infactuated with themselves. I don't know about the young boy part, nothing has been proven.

Insinuations such as this aren't just childish, they're just plain wrong. I can think of a lot of negative things that could be said without resorting to something like this.

[max patch]

Annonoymous people who write entries in shelter registers and then sign them "Wingfoot" are A-Holes.

Don't you agree?

[Pencil Pusher]

Annonoymous people who write entries in shelter registers and then sign them "Wingfoot" are A-Holes.

Don't you agree?
Lay off the ego and get a sense of humor:eek: :)

[Moxie00]

Yep, same guy, all 61 years at the time with my 50 lb pack. Made it all the way to Maine. There was nothing in that pack I didn't use every day, Some people like heavy packs and I still hike with one. Yes, in the evening after supper, and before turning in it is a great pleasure to reach in the old pack, take out the old forge and anvil, and knock off a few horse shoes to help you to sleep better. The ultra lite fad will soon pass when todays hikers realize what they are missing by hiking without modern conviences like chain saws, cast iron cooking gear, and ges grills. I took alot of heat for the weight of my pack but I had a wondeful hike with it.:clap

[Happygirl123]

Dude, Wingfoot gives good advice so dont be bratty to him. Moody, youre a bigger butt then him anyway.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

It's amazing how the majority of Trail members' criticisms of Wingfoot never mention the main reason why he restricts his site. The reason is because he wants people to recognize and back the Trail's philosophical purpose. His site is a Trail advocacy site meant for people who endorse his view of the Trail. Not surprising that those who don't understand this don't do well with him. As you can see above, most people who criticize his site fail to mention this.

Most people who attend the internet AT don't understand what the Trail is about. It's about more than hiking. You'll never see an answer to what I just wrote from these same critics...

[Rocks 'n Roots]

In future, I'm merely going to try and ignore him. If has no desire to substantiate his old arguments, I haven't much interest in taking part in his new ones.

I suggest the rest of us try and do likewise.

I think Jack is pretending that he hasn't been "ignoring" the real topic from the beginning here (in plain daylight). My point is proven that most internet people organize AGAINST AT conservation, AT philosophy, or its wilderness ethic, rather than for it...

[The Old Fhart]

RnR-"Most people who attend the internet AT don't understand what the Trail is about."Yup, you really hit it right on the head with that well thought out statement. So the first time I met Jack in 1998, he was doing trail work with Bob Peoples. The last time I saw Jack in 2005, he was doing trail work.

So by you own criteria, Jack is an active trail maintainer and you are an "internet AT" groupie that doesn't understand what the Trail is about. Thanks for letting us know you are the incompetent one.

[Moxie00]

The very first time I met The Old Fhart in the Smokies he told me all about Baltimore Jack. I was lucky enough to catch up with Baltimore Jack in Monson when he took a few days off the trail to help Keith Shaw with a few projects. I was lucky enough to hike with Baltimore Jack in the 100 mile wilderness. They are both great hikers, they both love the trail and even though I frequently do not agree with the Old Fhart and Jack I have nothing but respect for their experience and knowledge. They have both given the trail alot and to hike with either of them is a colorful and rewarding experience.
:sun