Canister stove/fuel FAQ [Archive] - WhiteBlaze

View Full Version : Canister stove/fuel FAQ

tlbj6142

04-02-2005, 17:36

Canister Stove/Fuel FAQ

Edited by Yellow Jacket (tlbj6142)<o>
</o>

<o></o>
Q: Can I mail canisters?<o></o>

Yes, according to USPS guidelines, you can ship a 1L (or smaller) canister via ground delivery if the package is marked with an “ORM-D” and/or "Surface Delivery Only" sticker. This is the same sticker that must be placed on a package if it contains alcohol hand sanitizer (Purell).<o></o>

See http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub52.pdf, section 342.22a-c, for details.

However, don't be surprised if some post masters quickly respond with a "heck no you can't ship butane in the mail", as some seem to take the "better to say 'no' than bother to find out for sure" approach.:p

Conversation from a trip to PO (Dublin, OH 43017 4/4/2005 about noon):

Me: Holding an 8oz MSR canister in my hand. "Can I ship this propane/butane fuel in the mail?"
PM: "No."
Me: Holding Section 342.22a-c from Pub 52 in my hand. "According to Pub 52, it reads like I might be able to as long as I ship less than 1L of fuel."
PM: Walks over to some big chart on the wall. Stood there for several seconds and came back to the counter. "Looks like you can, but I'll need to mark the package as 'Surface Mail Only'".
Me: "Do I need to fill out any additional paper work?"
PM: "No"
Me: "Do I need to leave the box open when I arrive at the PO?"
PM: "No, just declare the package's contents and the PM will need to put 'Surface Mail Only' on the outside of the package."
Me: "Are there any additional fees?"
PM: "No"
Me: "Will you put the ORM-D sticker on the box?"
PM: "No, we don't stock them. I just need to mark the package as 'Surface Mail Only'."

This is where it gets a bit funny (at least to hikers).

Me: "Can I send the package General Delivery?"
PM: "Does the person you are sending it to have an GD account setup with their PO?
Me: "No, I'll be sending it to myself."
PM: "If you want to send any package GD, you need to notify the PO before you send the package."
Me: Trying not to laugh. "It's common practice for hikers and backpackers to send packages to themselves via GD. They don't typically notify the PO."
PM: "Our PM does not allow us received GD packages. Other PM have their own rules."

So, if your your PM tells you no, mention Publication 52 (and/or bring a copy of printed page 42, document page 28) and that you are mailing less than 1L of fuel. Reassure the PM by stating that you expect the package to be delivered via "Surface Mail Only". You might want to bring in your package opened just so the PM can "see" canister, though that does not appear to be a requirement.

The one thing I forgot to ask about was Priority Mail. While over short distances Priority Mail is probably delivered via surface mail, I expect it isn't if delivered over long distances.

Q: Where are canisters available along the AT?<o></o>

While not as readily available as alcohol, with a bit of planning you should not have to worry about fuel availability. The following is a list of crossings which our members claim carries canister fuel.<o></o>

Any “real” outfitter will carry canister fuel. Call ahead if you are not sure.<o></o>

Yes: Walasi-Yi, NOC, <st1:city w:st="on">Hot Springs</st1:city>, Erwin (I think Uncle Johnny has them), <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Damascus</st1>, </st1:city>Pearisburg, Daleville (near Troutville),<st1:city w:st="on"></st1:city> <st1:city w:st="on">Waynesboro</st1:city>, <st1:city w:st="on">Williamstown</st1:city>, Harpers Ferry, <st1:city w:st="on"></st1:city>Front Royal, Port Clinton, Pawling, Cornwall Bridge, Great Barrington, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Kent</st1:country-region>, <st1><st1:city w:st="on">Manchester Center</st1:city>, <st1:state w:st="on">Hanover</st1:state></st1>, Pinkham Notch, Gorham, Caratunk, Monson<o></o>

Maybe (?): I'm pretty sure Delaware Water Gap has canisters.<o></o>

No: Duncannon, Boiling Springs, Unionville, <st1:city w:st="on">Salisbury

</st1:city>
Q: Can all stoves use any of the fuel mixtures available from other manufactures?

Yes, as long as the attachment fitting on your stove is compatible with that of the cansiter's (See next question). Check your stove's instructions to be sure. And be aware that some manufactures claim using 3rd party cansiters voids your stove's warranty. But, then, what can go wrong with a canister stove?:rolleyes:

The various fuel mixtures are attempts at over-coming the issues with using pure propane or pure butane. In particular, propane is heavy and butane doesn't expand all that well below freezing. So, a mixture of these gasses is used to overcome both of these issues to one degree or another.

The various mixtures also have some affect on stove performance at a given temperature and altitude. As each of the gases used has dramatically different temperature vs. ambient pressure characteristics.

Taken directly from the BackpackingLight.com's Canister Stove FAQ: (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html)

Fuel that is a mix of iso-butane (boiling point 12 °F) and propane, works better in below freezing temperatures than fuel containing butane (boiling point 31 °F), because the fuel in the canister will continue to vaporize (albeit more sluggishly) at cold temperatures. For cold temperature performance (below freezing), the propane is the basic driving force (because of its low boiling point) that makes the stove work; iso-butane will volatilize and burn along with the propane (but in decreasing amounts) down to its boiling point of 12 °F, while the n-butane will just sit there. Warming the canister will enable it to perform at even lower temperatures. Examples of cold weather fuels are: MSR IsoPro fuel - 80% iso-butane and 20% propane; Snow Peak GigaPower fuel - 85% iso-butane and 15% propane; and Jetboil JetPower fuel which is 20-30% propane with the remainder iso-butane.

Q: Is there more than one type of canister adaptor?

Yes. There are two different attachment fittings. The vast majority (including all US manufactures) of canister stoves use the EN417 Lindal valve, while in Europe, several use the Camping Gaz canisters which are very similar except that the valve is smooth instead of threaded like the Lindal valve. At least one stove, the MSR Superfly, will work with either type of fitting.

In the US, the Lindal fitting is by far the most common. In fact, it is difficult to even find canisters for the Camping Gas fitting.

See BackpackingLight.com's Canister Stove FAQ for details (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html).

<o></o>
Q: How weight efficient is a canister stove?<o></o>

According to tests performed by our pal Sgt. Rock and ACYE they are very weight efficient. If the empty canisters were a bit lighter and/or could be refilled, we wouldn't even need this FAQ as everyone would be carrying canister stoves.<o></o>

Most users who boil 16oz (2 cups) of water once per day are able to make 8oz (12oz including the canister weight) of fuel last 10-14 days.<o></o>

See http://www.thru-hiker.com/articles.asp?subcat=2&cid=57 and http://hikinghq.net/stoves/weight_time_compare.html for more details, including pretty pictures and dozens of charts.
<o></o>

Q: I've read that canisters stoves are unstable, is this true?

The majority of canister stoves attach on top of the canister, thereby creating a rather high center of gravity. Care should be taken to ensure the cansiter itself is placed on a stable level surface before placing a filled pot on the stove. Furthermore, pots larger than 2qts are probably too big for most canister stoves. We don't want any spilled noodles now do we.:eek:

Brunton makes the CanStand (http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=276) which attaches to the bottom of the fuel canister to improve the entire setup's stability. It can be used with any 4oz or 8oz canister and stove.

There is at least one stove, MSR WindPro (http://www.msrcorp.com/stoves/windpro.asp), which has its own stand and does not sit on top of the fuel canister. Consider this stove if you are cooking larger (> 2qts) meals for groups.

Q: Can I use a windscreen with my canister stove?<o></o>

Sure, as long as you don’t let the canister get too hot. If you can put your bare hand on the side of the canister for 15 seconds while the stove is in use, the canister is fine. Consider a ¾ windscreen like the one shown at the bottom of BackpackingLight.com's Canister Stove FAQ. (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html)
<o></o>

Q: Should I run the stove wide open?<o></o>

Not unless you have no interest in fuel efficiency. Studies on www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com/) indicate a savings of 18% to 46% can be achieved my reducing the fuel output.

Q: How can I tell how much fuel is left in the canister?

While I haven't confirmed this yet, I have read if you place a canister in water it will float. The water-line is suppose to represent the fuel line.

Weigh a full cansiter before you leave on your trip. Whenever you walk through a town, stop by the PO (or Deli counter???) and weigh your canister. Eventually you'll have gathered enough data points to determine how much is left in the canister and how long you can expect it to last.

<o></o><o></o>Various stove model comments:<o></o>

MSR Pocket Rocket (http://www.msrcorp.com/stoves/pocket_rocket.asp): Light, easy to use and cheap (~$40 retail). The pot stands are a bit wobbly. The hard plastic case it comes with is really cool.:)

I own a Pocket Rocket (seduced by the triangular case and a 10% off coupon), but I would not buy one again as the pot stand is way too unstable IMO. Unless the bottom of your pot is ridged (like most of the MSR pots), your pot can easily slide around on the tips (the only point of contact) of the three legs. There are several other stoves on the market for the same price that offer "better" pot stands.<o></o>

(http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/detail.asp?product_id=9741-700) Coleman Exponent Ultralight F1 (http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/detail.asp?product_id=9741-700): Very similar to the MSR Pocket Rocket (including cost), but has a more stable pot stand (the legs are flat, rather than pointed like the PR). Received top marks on a recent canister stove round-up on www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com/). It is the only stove in the round-up to boil water in cold windy conditions (lab generated) besides the Jetboil.<o></o>

Jetboil (http://www.jetboil.com/): This all-in-one setup includes a cup, pot, stove, “pot cozy”, Piezo igniter and handle. The entire setup including a small canister (4oz of fuel?) fits inside the pot. It works great in windy setups as the stove has a built-in windscreen and heat exchanger. It is a bit pricy, and heavy, compared to other setups. It has a manufacture maximum water capacity of 0.5L despite having a 1L pot. The folks a www.backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com/) see no reason why 0.8L can’t be safely boiled in the setup.<o></o><o></o>

Snow Peak GigaPower (http://www.snowpeak.com/Gear/stoves_index.html): As good or better than the Pocket Rocket, and costs the same. Has a "better" pot stand than the PR and most models come with Piezo igniter.

Brunton (Crux and Raptor): (http://www.brunton.com/catalog.php?subcat=11) Good stoves. Both have Piezo igniters. The Crux (http://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=244) model will fold up such that it fits into the underside of a can of fuel for very compact storage.

Large portions of this information were collected from the following resources:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7294
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6152
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2868
BackpackingLight.com's Canister Stove FAQ (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html)
Gas Stove FAQ -- by Roger Caffin (http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_GasStoves.htm)

First edition 4/2/2005.

4/3/2005 -- incorporated a few more comments from users. I need to put the towns "in order" from S to N.

4/4/2005 -- Finally fixed the links in the resource section and re-ordered questions. Added conversation with my local PM. Other minor edits. Added Brunton. Added stability question.

4/11/05 -- Fixed quoting method used as "article" viewing doesn't appear to show quotes correctly. Updated Pub 52 page references.

4/25/2007 -- Added note about PO scales.

7/05/2007 -- Added link to Roger's stove FAQ

<o></o><o>
</o>

plodder

04-02-2005, 17:49

My unanswered question is the definition of "address." Local postal dude had some reservation about GD, might depend on the local interpretation. He suggested I bring in the box open, blah blah blah. Pain in the tookus.

Jack Tarlin

04-02-2005, 20:14

Nice post.

Cannisters are also available in Pearisburg (definitely the Wal-Mart and maybe the hardware store; the outfitter in Daleville (near Troutville); Front Royal; Port Clinton (definitely Cabela's in Hamburg or Appalachian Outfitters in P.C.);
Pawling, N.Y.; Cornwall Bridge; Great Barrington.

In addition to the stoves listed, I think the Snow Peak GigaPower is as good or better than the Pocket Rocket, and costs the same.

Roland

04-02-2005, 20:40

Clear, concise, and well organized. Nice work, Yellow Jacket.

Oracle

04-02-2005, 21:08

Two quick questions - do all canister stoves use the same fuel, or do different canister stoves use different types of canister fuel? Do all canisters have the same attachment fittings?

tlbj6142

04-03-2005, 21:30

updated earlier today. Figured I post this so existing subscribers could review the changes.

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 10:22

updated earlier today. Figured I post this so existing subscribers could review the changes.Ditto. Re-ordered questions and fixed links.

The Solemates

04-04-2005, 11:15

Excellent. This should go in the articles section if its not already.

The Solemates

04-04-2005, 11:44

yea i just realized it is in the articles section. :o

chris

04-04-2005, 11:56

The difficulty with testing how much fuel is left in the canister is a difficult one. The notion of a waterline test is not very practical in the field. I have found that I can give the cannister a gentle shake. If I feel something moving about in there, the canister is still charged. The more wiggle, the more fuel. This is akin to shaking a whitegas stove bottle to see how much gas is left. Not the best method, but you can get a reasonable estimate this way.

On the GDT, I carried some solid fuel tabs as backups, and I needed them.

RockyTrail

04-04-2005, 12:08

The hot-water method of measuring how much fuel is left is used on some gas-grill propane tanks. A temperature-sensitive strip (that turns color when hot) is permanently glued to the side of the tank. What you do is pour very hot water down this strip; the whole strip will turn color. The portion of the strip below the fuel "waterline" will absorb the heat quickly and the strip will quickly go back to normal color in this zone while the part above will remain dark. I have not seen this in camp stoves but I guess it could be done. Even though it supposedly is safe, I'm a bit nervous about pouring hot water on a pressurized can of flammable gas, I don't want to stress the metal or anything.

Personally what I do is weigh the canister on a postal scale and subtract what a "known empty weight" from an old spent canister. This is only useful when starting a trip of course...unless you want to carry the scale.

dp the wonder dog

04-04-2005, 12:12

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 13:44

Ditto. Re-ordered questions and fixed links.One more time. Added conversation with my local PM.

grrickar

04-04-2005, 15:27

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 16:26

One more time. Added conversation with my local PM.Added Brunton and stove stability question.

chris

04-04-2005, 16:46

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 16:58

Something on the efficiency of the different kinds of fuel out there might be nice.Wouldn't that be temperature and altitude related? Though, I guess I could add that to the FAQ.

chris

04-04-2005, 18:56

Wouldn't that be temperature and altitude related? Though, I guess I could add that to the FAQ.

Yes, for sure. However, at a given altitude and temperature, I think that the chemical compositions of the different brands leads to different performances. For example, in at 4000 ft and 50 degree ambient temperature, the Snow Peak should outlast the blue things by a large margin. Drop the temperature to 30 degrees and the same thing should be true, although it is unclear if the relative difference will stay the same, increase, or decrease.

A-Train

04-04-2005, 19:26

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 21:48

Yes, for sure. However, at a given altitude and temperature, I think that the chemical compositions of the different brands leads to different performances.The bpl cansister stove FAQ hints at this a bit, and I don't believe they go into any more details in another ariticle (which is odd given their scientific approach gear reviews and comentary).

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 21:53

Great article and info. Most of the guys I hiked with had canister stoves (pocket rockets) and their stoves definately had more juice than my alcohol stove did. Still I can't get over the idea of wasting all those canisters. If there was a way to keep refilling the canister I'd probably use one, but I can't warrant throwing away all that material. Can they at least be recycled in towns?This is a major issue with canister stoves. I'm sure the material can be recycled, but I'd expect you'd need to make sure the canister was empty and punctured (Yikes!!) before dropping them in bin.

While I won't put this in the FAQ, I suspect allowing the stove to burn off all of the fuel on a warm day. And then, with the valve open, "church key" (or nail punch) the bottom of the can would do the trick in a safe mannor.

tlbj6142

04-04-2005, 22:06

the Snowpeak stuff last longer than the MSR stuff, and both vastly outperform the blue stuff.From the quote I just added, it seems as though Snowpeak has the greatest amount of iso-butane. What brand is the "blue stuff"? I though European Camp Gaz was in blue containers, but that stuff won't work on your PR.

SGT Rock

04-04-2005, 22:12

I had me one of those blue stoves when I was in Germany about 20 years ago. I hated it. If I remember it was an all butane canister.

chris

04-05-2005, 11:02

I can't remember the brand name of the blue stuff, but I think it is mostly butane. The ladies I finished up the GDT with were using it. I had a new MSR canister, they had a new blue one. At the end, mine had a ton of fuel left. Theirs was empty. We ate the same quantity of food (me twice as much as each of them), and I boiled up some additional tea. We had different models of stoves, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.

In terms of recycling canisters, you can take them to a lot of outdoor stores in major towns to get them recycled. However, this is always a bit uncertain. The REI in Tacoma or the MEC in Calgary will recycle them. But, the climbing store in Jasper won't. My suspicion is that several of the early on outfitters would recycle them for you, but I have nothing to base this on other than their overall quality.

Oracle

04-05-2005, 22:06

Thanks for this FAQ, folks. This has definitely made me rethink canister stoves, I had completely written them off before in favor of alcohol stoves. Definitely something to look at with fresh eyes.

NICKTHEGREEK

04-07-2005, 07:18

This is the very best link that I have come across concerning canister stove fuel. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html

NICKTHEGREEK

04-07-2005, 07:27

I can't remember the brand name of the blue stuff, but I think it is mostly butane. The ladies I finished up the GDT with were using it. I had a new MSR canister, they had a new blue one. At the end, mine had a ton of fuel left. Theirs was empty. We ate the same quantity of food (me twice as much as each of them), and I boiled up some additional tea. We had different models of stoves, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference.

Not so, a 10,000 BTU stove will use more fuel than an 8,000 BTU. The efficiency of the cooking pot and numerous other factors skew the results. The blue stuff (Gaz) is 80% Butane 20% propane, and works very well at summertime temps.

chris

04-07-2005, 11:13

Not so, a 10,000 BTU stove will use more fuel than an 8,000 BTU. The efficiency of the cooking pot and numerous other factors skew the results. The blue stuff (Gaz) is 80% Butane 20% propane, and works very well at summertime temps.

What part is not so? That using different models of stoves doesn't matter much? I'll agree that factors other than fuel brand will affect efficiency, but I doubt it would be the extent that I saw it.

I'm a little unsure why an 8000 BTU stove will use less fuel to heat a fixed volume of water to a fixed temperature than a 10,000 BTU stove will. Perhaps you could explain this? After all, it seems like it would logically follow that a 6000 BTU stove will be more efficient than a 8000 BTU stove. And this would imply...

Oracle

04-07-2005, 13:26

I'm a little unsure why an 8000 BTU stove will use less fuel to heat a fixed volume of water to a fixed temperature than a 10,000 BTU stove will.
It shouldn't, the 10,000 BTU unit would probably only do it faster. It would depend on the efficiency of the stove/pot/windscreen cover, as was mentioned. I'd bet that something like the Jetboil would be more efficient than the standard hiker setup.

NICKTHEGREEK

04-08-2005, 09:57

It shouldn't, the 10,000 BTU unit would probably only do it faster. It would depend on the efficiency of the stove/pot/windscreen cover, as was mentioned. I'd bet that something like the Jetboil would be more efficient than the standard hiker setup.
All I said was that a 10k BTU stove uses more gas than an 8 kBTU stove. If one were to assume 100% efficiency (never happen) and all other things being equal both stoves would use the same amout of fuel to bring an equal volume of liquid to a boil. The 10k would do it faster. You are absolutely right that a high efficiency rig like a jetboil is the ticket to lower fuel consumption.

SGT Rock

04-08-2005, 10:15

All I said was that a 10k BTU stove uses more gas than an 8 kBTU stove. If one were to assume 100% efficiency (never happen) and all other things being equal both stoves would use the same amout of fuel to bring an equal volume of liquid to a boil. The 10k would do it faster. You are absolutely right that a high efficiency rig like a jetboil is the ticket to lower fuel consumption.
It does have a lower fuel consumption at the trade off of a higher weight. IMO the test is not total efficiency, but weight efficiency. So adding 6-7 ounces of weight may save you 0.16 ounces of fuel, but what is the point of that. You could get similar fuel savings from a canister by boiling your water slower without adding extra weight.

chris

04-08-2005, 11:07

All I said was that a 10k BTU stove uses more gas than an 8 kBTU stove. If one were to assume 100% efficiency (never happen) and all other things being equal both stoves would use the same amout of fuel to bring an equal volume of liquid to a boil. The 10k would do it faster. You are absolutely right that a high efficiency rig like a jetboil is the ticket to lower fuel consumption.

Uses more gas to do what? To bring a given volume of water to a given temperature? It seems that this is what you are indicating. That is, in the field, with all other things being equal (pot, temperature, wind, etc), an 8000 BTU stove will bring 2 cups of water to a boil using less fuel than a 10000 BTU stove? Wouldn't the same be true of a 6000 BTU stove?

Perhaps the reason is that a 10000 BTU stove generates a larger flame spread than an 8000 BTU thing and that means wasted heat. However, I doubt that an alcohol stove of a fixed diameter would boil water with a smaller amount of methyl alcohol (fewer BTU) than with ethyl (more BTU).

SGT Rock

04-08-2005, 11:13

Doesn't the BTU rating of a stove simply mean the maximum output at any one given time?

BTUs of the fuel never change. A fuel that has 18,000 BTUs per pound always has 18,000 BTUs per pound. So a 10,000 BTU stove doesn't get 10,000 BTUs of energy from a canister while a 6,000 BTU stove only gets 6,000 from the same canister. Both stoves would get 18,000 total BTUs from the canister, but the 10,000 could burn out the canister faster while putting out more at one time.

chris

04-08-2005, 11:54

This is certainly true, but the issue raised was whether or not the fuel mixture mattered. That is, will using a fuel with less BTUs boil a fixed volume of water using less fuel than a stove with more BTUs. Butane, I think, has fewer BTUs than some of the other blends out there. In the example I gave, I'm pretty certain that methyl, having one fewer carbon atom, has fewer BTUs than ethyl (was methyl).

SGT Rock

04-08-2005, 11:58

You used methyl twice:D

Ethyl has more BTUs than Methyl. 12,250 in ethyl, 10,200 in methyl.

SGT Rock

04-08-2005, 12:10

Gasses:

<TABLE rules=all border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=275 bgColor=#ffffff>

</TD><TD width=142 bgColor=#ffffff>
Propane

</TD><TD width=126 bgColor=#ffffff>
Butane

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE rules=all border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=275 bgColor=#ffffff>
BTU/lb. - gas

</TD><TD width=142 bgColor=#ffffff>
21591

</TD><TD width=126 bgColor=#ffffff>
21221

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE rules=all border=1><TBODY><TR><TD width=275 bgColor=#ffffff>
Flash point, F.

</TD><TD width=142 bgColor=#ffffff>
-156

</TD><TD width=126 bgColor=#ffffff>
N.A.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

chris

04-08-2005, 15:11

So butane and propane have the same number of BTUs per pound. What else goes into the canisters that could account for the different longevities?

SGT Rock

04-08-2005, 15:40

I don't know LOL. Where is a chemist when you need one?

tlbj6142

04-08-2005, 15:55

Aren't we forgetting partial pressures of the gasses (just writing that down makes my brain hurt a bit)? If the gas mixture is different between one canister brand and another, even at the same temp/altitude the output mixture would be the same?

Maybe? Am I close?

Panzer1

04-09-2005, 00:20

Great article and info. Most of the guys I hiked with had canister stoves (pocket rockets) and their stoves definately had more juice than my alcohol stove did. Still I can't get over the idea of wasting all those canisters. If there was a way to keep refilling the canister I'd probably use one, but I can't warrant throwing away all that material. Can they at least be recycled in towns?
Even Coleman fluid comes in a gallon can that has to be thrown out.

The problem I have with my Coleman gallon can is that since I keep it in my shed out back behind the house the bottom is beginning to rust out with about 3/4 gallon of fluid left in there. If I toss the entire thing out, am I not poluting even more that throwing out a small completely empty canister?

Panzer

Nightwalker

04-09-2005, 07:44

I haven't tried this on a cannister stove, but it works on the big (20#) propane bottles. And it's not for the trail, but a good way to check levels at home. With the stove running (so you have evap/conversion cooling), use a non-contact infrared thermometer to scan down the side of the tank...you'll see a temp change at the liquid fuel level.
Works for little ones on the trail as well. No thermometer needed, just run yer finger down the side and feel where it starts getting cold. Figgered that one out very recently, and accidentally.

The "weigh it" one is easy. Grocery store, outfitter, post office; they all have scales. Weigh it when you think that it's about halfway time to re-up, and you'll know if your estimate is correct.

On a similar topic, I cut two 1/2" thick pieces of expanded styrofoam to a barely-fit size for the lid of my Snow Peak Trek 1400 Ti. I then cut a disc of aluminum flashing to the size of the rim that sets on the pot and contact-cemented it in place. The lid stays cool even unto boiling temps in the pot. Boiling time is seriously reduced. The contact cement shows no sign of releasing accidentally, even after many repeated uses. And I never used the lid as a frying pan anyway. It was one of my better "odd ideas that worked."

Nightwalker

04-09-2005, 07:49

Something on the efficiency of the different kinds of fuel out there might be nice. I've noticed that, say, the Snowpeak stuff last longer than the MSR stuff, and both vastly outperform the blue stuff. But, this is coming from a month of use last summer. Others with more experience or scientific knowledge might be able to provide better insight and info.
Primus Power Gas 4 season mix claims to work at -15F. MSR has a 2-part gas that claims to work at -10F. Snow Peak is the cheapest to buy, but it lasts the least amount of time, in my unscientific experience. It's also fussy in cold temps. I've used the other two below 20F numerous times with no problems. The days of canister stoves not working in cold weather seem to be in the past

Nightwalker

04-09-2005, 08:27

It shouldn't, the 10,000 BTU unit would probably only do it faster. It would depend on the efficiency of the stove/pot/windscreen cover, as was mentioned. I'd bet that something like the Jetboil would be more efficient than the standard hiker setup.
It should also be mentioned that the stove manufacturers sell gas as well. My Pocket Rocket instructions said to open the valve 3/4 of a turn to cook efficiently. No way! If I did that, I'd only get the wimpy burn times listed on the canister. As it is, with 3/8 to 1/2 turn of the valve, I get 50-75% more life from a can.

I look at it like this: When I cook with alcohol, I use about five ounces per day. Alcohol has a .79 specific gravity, so let's say 4 oz. in weight per day. My alcohol stove weighs 10 grams, and my fuel bottle is approximately one ounce.

My Pocket Rocket weighs 3 ounces. A 16 ounce can of gas weighs 24 ounces. It has always lasted more than 2 weeks, but I'll use 2 weeks as a base number.

Alcohol: 10 grams (approximately 1/3 ounce) for the stove, 1 ounce for the fuel bottle, 4 ounces per day times 2 weeks. That adds up to 57 1/3 ounces.

Gas: 3 ounces for the stove, 24 ounces for the canister. That's 27 ounces for 2 weeks. And remember, I'm shading this to give the benefit of the doubt to alcohol. I've got 2 weeks in my current canister and it sounds about 1/3 full.

This comparison gives pressurized gas a better than 2:1 lead on efficiency for the long haul. It's also faster and less of a hassle.

The same comparison works with a smaller can. A 7 ounce can of MSR gas weighs 12 ounces and always lasts me a week or more. 12 + 3 =15 for gas vs. (7 * 4) + 1 + 1/3 = 29 1/3 ounces for alcohol. Still basically 2:1.

A counter argument: "I only use 2 ounces of alcohol per day". At that rate, and estimating conservatively, a 7 ounce can of MSR Iso-Pro gas will last an amazing 17.5 days. The math? (12+3)=15 for gas vs. (17.5 * (2 * .79 )) + 1 + 1/3 = 28.983 for alcohol. Still very close to 2:1 better for canister gas.

If you could re-supply your alcohol every 2 days, and use a 1/2 ounce fuel bottle because of the smaller capacity requirement, you could come out with a lower average trail weight, but that'd be pushing a point well beyond its limit. Alcohol also has issues at lower temps.

I could see alcohol for a weekend, but not for a thru-hike. You carry what you want. :D

SGT Rock

04-09-2005, 08:30

4 ounces of fuel per day? You have to be doing something wrong.

Nightwalker

04-09-2005, 08:31

So butane and propane have the same number of BTUs per pound. What else goes into the canisters that could account for the different longevities?
You'd have to sign a non-disclosure agreement with a non-compete clause to find out. Then they'd either make something up or lie to you. :D

tlbj6142

04-09-2005, 10:57

I could see alcohol for a weekend, but not for a thru-hike. Follow the links in the "are canister stoves weight efficent" section above. Your ideas have been discussed eleswhere and have quite a bit of science behind them.

In short, canisters stove are more weight efficent if you can't resupply every 10-14 days. Otherwise alcohol wins out every time. Well actually, ebit stoves are even lighter but they cost a bit more and most folks find them a bit messy.

Nightwalker

04-10-2005, 01:05

4 ounces of fuel per day? You have to be doing something wrong.
The test was in February with February stream water, on the Foothuills Trail.

Two 16 ounce cups of coffee, two lunch/dinner meals needing the same and one morning oatmeal needing 2.75 cups of water. The canister was the same.

All but the last took about 7 drams, and the last took 9 drams. 3 5/8 ounces. Close enough.

tlbj6142

04-11-2005, 10:18

Two 16 ounce cups of coffee, two lunch/dinner meals needing the same and one morning oatmeal needing 2.75 cups of water. The canister was the same.If you cook that much on the trail. You are correct, alcohol stoves are not the answer. For most folks that use 2-3cups of water, once per day, alcohol stoves are fine.

Footslogger

04-11-2005, 12:35

I could see alcohol for a weekend, but not for a thru-hike. You carry what you want. :D===========================================
Not going to dispute your math but stop for a minute and think about all the people using alcohol stoves for thru-hikes. Maybe things have changed since my thru in 2003 but the vast majority of thru-hikers then were using alcohol. Can't quote you an exact number but I know what I saw.

I feel just the opposite about cannister versus alcohol cooking. I use propane/butane fuel on short hikes when I don't mind carrying the cannister. For long distance/duration hikes I have found alcohol to be the better choice.

But ...like you said, hikers should carry what they want.

'Slogger

tlbj6142

04-11-2005, 12:52

I feel just the opposite about cannister versus alcohol cooking. I use propane/butane fuel on short hikes when I don't mind carrying the cannister. For long distance/duration hikes I have found alcohol to be the better choice.I really think the choice is more related to how much you cook. And the rate at which you can re-supply. And, Frank has overlooked the annoying issue with canisters in that you will need to carry more than one canister for short distances.

Franklooper is cooking 9cups (2.25 qts):eek: of water per day for one person(?). IMO, that's a lot of cooking (some folks barely drink that much water per day on the trail, let alone use that much to cook with). Most thru-hikers cook 2-3cups per day, about 1/3 of his consumption.

I use my canister stove whenever I need to cook for more than 2 people, or when I expect to cook "fancier" meals that require longer burn/simmer times. This happens most often when I take my (young) kids along. Once they get a bit older, I'll probably have them cook their own meals on an alcohol stove.

chris

04-11-2005, 15:46

===========================================
I feel just the opposite about cannister versus alcohol cooking. I use propane/butane fuel on short hikes when I don't mind carrying the cannister. For long distance/duration hikes I have found alcohol to be the better choice.

But ...like you said, hikers should carry what they want.

'Slogger

I do exactly the same thing. During the summer, I usually take an alcohol stove, partly because of the lightness, but also because fuel is easier to get (usually). During the off season, I bring a canister stove because it is quick and I tend to boil more than once a day. For example, in the evening, when I want my special chocolate-coffee-whiskey mixture, I want it right away.

Nightwalker

04-11-2005, 19:24

Franklooper is cooking 9cups (2.25 qts) of water per day for one person(?). IMO, that's a lot of cooking (some folks barely drink that much water per day on the trail, let alone use that much to cook with). Most thru-hikers cook 2-3cups per day, about 1/3 of his consumption.
Don't know what to tell you, but things that require water added are lighter than things that start out wet. I've messed around with no-cook "wet" stuff as a larger portion of my food, but it gets heavier.

I go back and forth between light vs. easy, and right now am kind of in the middle. I eat 4 meals per day on the trail, 3 of them cooked, plus fig newtons and summer sausage and other stuff for quick snacks. I've tried a lot of ways over the years, and am always open to new info. Tell me what your menu is that requires only 2-3 cups of water per day, if you don't mind.

As to the drinking, I use 3-4 liters per day. Less gives me problems. If you're drinking less, I wonder how you keep your energy level up. Not knocking, just curious.

tlbj6142

04-12-2005, 10:45

As to the drinking, I use 3-4 liters per day. Less gives me problems. If you're drinking less, I wonder how you keep your energy level up. Not knocking, just curious.I drink plenty of water (4-6L per day), but I have heard of folks that get by with less. Not sure how myself.

I'm not a thru-hiker, but for my weekend and weeklong trips, here is what I eat per day on the trail:

Breakfast: 3 breakfast bars (1 when I wake-up and the other two shortly after I hit the trail).
Morning Snack (2): handful of gorp or a bar (cliff, luna)
Lunch: 1 large tortilla covered in peanutbutter/honey mix. Or tuna/mayonnaise
Afternoon Snack (2): gorp, bar
Dinner: Various boil-in-bag meals which require 10-16oz of water
Bedtime Snack: Hard cookies (like ginger snaps)
I'm a sunrise to sunset hiker, I typically eat my dinner on the trail 1-3 hours before I get to camp. I do find that I have a hard time eating the second afternoon snack sometimes. So, I might leave it off on my next trip. I'd rather run out of food than carry too much. Currently, my food weight works out to 20-24oz per day.

Mind you I probably consume far more calories at home than I do on the trail, but I have a hard time eating all that food while drinking 4-6L of water. I'm just too full. I also think I don't digest all that well while on the move.

If I were to ever do a thru-hike, I'm sure my menu would need dramatic changes, but for now I think I have all worked out.

Mags

04-12-2005, 11:32

I do exactly the same thing. During the summer, I usually take an alcohol stove, partly because of the lightness, but also because fuel is easier to get (usually). During the off season, I bring a canister stove because it is quick and I tend to boil more than once a day. For example, in the evening, when I want my special chocolate-coffee-whiskey mixture, I want it right away.

With the possibility of getting tagged as a "me too" post, that is what I do as well.

For winter trips, I take my white gas stove. Too much water to boil and snow to melt. I am often cooking or heating water for more than one person.

In the evening, I make my cocoa mix with some kind of liquer. The Godiva white chocolate liquer and cocoa mix made me very popular on quite a few winter trips....

For summer backpacking (which is solo), take the alcohol stove for my boil and cook meals.

tlbj6142

11-15-2005, 11:24

Rock/Troll;

Give me edit permissions on this thread (or the first post), so I can make a few changes to the article.

fiddlehead

11-15-2005, 12:16

My thoughts on butane/propane stoves/fuel: Once while hiking in the Himalayas, we climbed up to Manasalu base camp (one of the top 14 tallest in the world) and met 2 climbers from the Basque area who had just summited the day before. We talked for a while and found out that they used propane/butane GAZ stoves. (they melted all their water as well as cooking) I started using propane/butane immedietely after.
If i'm going out for less than 3 days, i'll use alcohol. But more than 3, the small SnoPeak fuel canisters last me about 5-7 days depending on how many cups of coffee i drink. i crush the cans when empty to save room and usually (when convenvient) recycle them with soda/beer cans.
I never had a problem puncturing or crushing a used canister with a rock.
I tell how much fuel is left by shaking the can. after some experience, this is easy to figure out.
I ship them USPS ground and never had a problem. I use a pocket rocket with the SnoPeak fuel.
I used to use the Bluet Gaz cartridge that you had to puncture to use and then leave it on the stove. Never had a problem with it but prefer to store the fuel and stove in different places just because that's where i have room in my pack.
I use a windscreen that i made out of one of those cheap, thin, aluminum pie pans (rectangular) that you can buy in all different sizes in supermarkets, I pounded it flat and duct taped the edges, and fold it in half. (or thirds to wrap around the stove/pot) I think it saves a LOT of fuel, especially when simmering and i simmer very very low heat when cooking to save fuel. I also turn off the fuel when i still have about 5 minutes of cooking to go and just let it sit.
If i run out of fuel before i hit town, i simply build fires until my next mail drop.

Jack Tarlin

11-15-2005, 18:38

I'm also a very loyal cannister-stove user.

I've had great luck over the years with the Pocket Rocket and the Giga. I used a Jet Boil system this year and was very pleased with it.

sliderule

11-16-2005, 00:22

Even Coleman fluid comes in a gallon can that has to be thrown out.

How many cannisters does it take to equal a gallon of Coleman fuel?

SGT Rock

11-16-2005, 12:26

Rock/Troll;

Give me edit permissions on this thread (or the first post), so I can make a few changes to the article.

You don't have permission? That isn't right, this forum should give the owner edit permission.

Footslogger

11-16-2005, 14:32

How many cannisters does it take to equal a gallon of Coleman fuel?
=====================================
Don't know the exact answer to that question but it reminded me of a method to determine the "life" of a single cannister of propane/butane. It involves a little bit of preparation though. Prior to using the cannister fuel on a distance hike you consume an entire cannister (of any size), each time making a scratch mark in the paint on the outside of the can. When the cannister is empty you count up the scratch marks and that gives you a pretty close estimate of the "number of burns" that you'll get. Then you can plan your hike accordingly taking into account the actual number of times you'd use the fuel to heat a meal.

'Slogger

tlbj6142

11-16-2005, 18:51

You don't have permission? That isn't right, this forum should give the owner edit permission.I don't. Well, at least there isn't an "Edit" button next to the Quote button. I seem to have lost most of my edit abilities after the recent upgrade.

SGT Rock

11-17-2005, 00:22

I'll look into it.

Skeemer

11-17-2005, 09:09

I switched from alcohol to canisters and will never look back. On the AT, I hiked about half the time with a guy who used canisters...he was done eating by the time my alcohol stove water boiled. (a slight exageration) He had trouble replacing it only once.

On the CT this summer I was always worrying about running out of fuel on the Trail. In town, I asked an outfitter to take a partially filled one off my hands when buying a new canister...he wouldn't do it. I don't think it's right to throw a partially filled one in the trash, but I guess I could have just drained it and threw it away. BTW, it ended up lasting the entire hike and into my next one. I only use it a supper time.

What I'm doing now is carrying two of the small 3 oz canisters instead of the larger one. I know it weighs more but I'm making up for it by doing a better job of reducing excess food.

"Slogger, you always have such good practical advice...I still owe you for my power stretch top...it has been with me on every mile and has yet to show any signs of wear, wash after wash.

Footslogger

11-17-2005, 11:32

"Slogger, you always have such good practical advice...I still owe you for my power stretch top...it has been with me on every mile and has yet to show any signs of wear, wash after wash.
========================================
You're welcome Skeemer. Wish I could take credit for coming up with that one myself. Just happened to remember it when reading through this thread. By the way ...I've got several of those partial cannisters of propane in the basement. I keed them on hand in case we lose power and have to improvise for cooking and heating out here in wild and wonderful Wyoming.

Oh yeah, and I've had my PowerStretch top about twice as long as you and it's still going strong (odor aside) so you should have plenty more years of warmth and enjoyment coming.

'Slogger

sliderule

11-17-2005, 11:33

BTW, it ended up lasting the entire hike and into my next one. I only use it a supper time.

Might you tell us how long the hike was?

Skeemer

11-17-2005, 12:41

...cooking once a day, mostly Mountain House, mashed potatoes or Ramen. A month on the JMT, a month on the CT and two weeks on the OHT minus minus the zeros...I'd have to go back and add it all up.

tlbj6142

11-17-2005, 13:05

...cooking once a day, mostly Mountain House, mashed potatoes or Ramen. A month on the JMT, a month on the CT and two weeks on the OHT minus minus the zeros...I'd have to go back and add it all up.You got 60+ meals from one canister? Was it one of those giant ones (16oz or 12oz of fuel)? I know many folks get 15+ meals from a single 8oz (the "normal" size) canister. But 60?

Footslogger

11-17-2005, 13:17

You got 60+ meals from one canister? Was it one of those giant ones (16oz or 12oz of fuel)? I know many folks get 15+ meals from a single 8oz (the "normal" size) canister. But 60?
=====================================
When I do use the propane cannisters (small ones) I generally get 8 - 9 days out of them. That includes boiling water for coffee in the morning and a hot dinner at night. If I was REALLY carefull and cut off the stove as soon as there was boilage I suppose I could stretch one out another 3 - 4 days.

'Slogger

tlbj6142

11-17-2005, 13:35

When I do use the propane cannisters (small ones) I generally get 8 - 9 days out of them. That includes boiling water for coffee in the morning and a hot dinner at night. If I was REALLY carefull and cut off the stove as soon as there was boilage I suppose I could stretch one out another 3 - 4 days.Your results are typical. I'm trying to understand what sort of voodoo Skeemer is using to make his canister last 60 days.

sliderule

11-17-2005, 14:04

So it sounds like an ounce per day would be a reasonable expectation.

Footslogger

11-17-2005, 14:19

So it sounds like an ounce per day would be a reasonable expectation.
================================
That's probably about right, but the problem is actually measuring ounces when it's coming out of a sealed cannister. Plus, in the colder temps that propane doesn't vaporize as well right away so there's probably some unintended loss.

'Slogger

sliderule

11-17-2005, 15:04

================================
That's probably about right, but the problem is actually measuring ounces when it's coming out of a sealed cannister. Plus, in the colder temps that propane doesn't vaporize as well right away so there's probably some unintended loss.

'Slogger
I was thinking in terms of "planning purposes." Meaning that an 8 ounce cannister should last 8 days. So there is no need to actually measure anything.

I recently discovered that cold and elevation both diminish the performance of a canister stove. At 5800' and 22 degrees, my stove would not light. When I returned home (near sea level), I left the stove in the freezer overnight and it fired right up the next morning.

SGT Rock

11-17-2005, 18:37

I don't. Well, at least there isn't an "Edit" button next to the Quote button. I seem to have lost most of my edit abilities after the recent upgrade.
tlbj, try again.

Skeemer

11-17-2005, 19:20

I'm gonna quit posting if I have to back up my statements with facts.:o

Let me see here. We were on the JMT for 19 meals (20 days) I was given a free filet mignon dinner at the first seasonal camp by a guy whose companions all paid and bowed out. When we got to Tuolumne Meadows we tented but ate at the lodge (steak again). We ate two evening meals at the Vermillion Valley Resort (the night we arrived and the next zero day). Same with the Muir Trail Ranch plus we packed out the first night's meal. Also, the young fellow of the group cooked my dinner the last night (I was too tired) So what's that? only11 cooked on the JMT, so right there my "month on the JMT" was a big, big overstatement and I do apologize.:o I know you're looking for accurate info when you ask these questions on this forum and I shouldn't be answering off the cuff like that.

The CT was 29 meals (30 days). I'd have to study my journal but let's say with 3 zeros with the evening before...plus I believe I went "cold" by packing out sandwiches or just eating lite at least 3 times and then there was the time we were trail angeled dinner. Add to that the time we ate in another town while passing through one day. Add another day I've probably forgotten and that leaves 17 cooked suppers. We're up to 28

On the OHT it emptied on the last of 8 ending up with a grand total of 35

BTW, when I light the flame I only turn it to the right slightly with the small blue flame under the pot...in other words, I don't turn it up all the way or on "high" for that matter. I noticed the last couple of meals it took forever to boil. I have yet to use a screen of any kind.

The guy I hiked with on the AT, Charlie from Berea (aka Wouded Knee) used a canister. Although we never counted the days exactly I'm sure it was 20 or more and that was with a hot beverage most mornings.

I'm now carrying two small cans (3 oz?) instead of one large.

Sorry about the exageration...but everything else you've heard about me is true...I'm so well endowed that the crotch ripped out of my guide pants by the time I got to Erwin...just ask Miss Janet, she sewed them up for me.:banana

Footslogger

11-17-2005, 19:23

[quote=Skeemer]I'm gonna quit posting if I have to back up my statements with facts.:o
=============================================
Now that sounds like something a politician would say !!

'Slogger

tlbj6142

11-18-2005, 11:40

tlbj, try again.Still no edit button.

tlbj6142

11-18-2005, 11:46

BTW, when I light the flame I only turn it to the right slightly with the small blue flame under the potModeration is the key to fuel efficiency. With a modest windscreen you could do even better.
I'm now carrying two small cans (3 oz?) instead of one large.That would be 4oz. The "large" are 8oz. They use to make a "biggie size" version that was 12oz? 16? But I don't see them anymore.
I'm so well endowed that the crotch ripped out of my guide pants by the time I got to Erwin...just ask Miss Janet, she sewed them up for me.:bananaI followed your journal in 2003. So, I'm well aware of the story.

SGT Rock

11-19-2005, 15:12

tlbj, try again.

tlbj6142

11-19-2005, 15:43

tlbj, try again.Nope. but I feel like you are getting closer.:D

SGT Rock

11-19-2005, 15:49

VEry strange. You should have the ability now. Check your settings in your CP to make sure they are on advanced or normal settings for post editing.

tlbj6142

11-19-2005, 15:54

I have the Enhanced mode enabled.

SGT Rock

11-19-2005, 16:14

Hmmm. Let me confer with Troll on this when he gets back from work. I think I have found the problem, but can't figure out hopw to fix it right now without screwing a few other things up.

LostInSpace

11-22-2005, 10:10

Yellow Jacket, great information. Thanks.
<o =""></o>
The attached file will print ORM-D labels.
<o =""></o>
I noticed that the regulations are contradictory regarding multiple canisters in the same package.
<o =""></o>
Section 342.3 c. says, “Multiple primary receptacles are not permitted. Packaging Instruction 2A must be<o =""></o>
followed.”<o =""></o>
<o =""></o>
Appendix C, Packaging Instruction 2A says, “Multiple primary receptacles may be securely packed within a single strong outer packaging, provided the total volume of flammable gas does not exceed 33.8 fluid ounces (1 liter) per mailpiece.”<o =""></o>
<o =""></o>
Although I cannot use this technique on the trail, at home I use a postal scales to determine the amount of gas the canister still contains. A full MSR IsoPro canister contains 8 ounces of fuel, by weight. The empty canister weighs about 4.7 ounces. Weigh the used canister and prorate the weight of the remaining contents.
<o =""></o>
E.g., (7.4 oz. – 4.7 oz.)/8.0 oz = 0.34 of the contents left. A full 8 oz canister weighs about 12.7 ounces.
<o =""></o>
I noticed that the MSR IsoPro canister is labeled “8 fl oz/227g.” I think it should be labeled “8 advp oz/227g” or just “8 oz/227g.” I don't think apples are oranges.
<o =""></o>
The actual fluid volume is about 13 oz for a 20/80 ratio. The canister volume is about 16 fl oz. Propane in a liquid state is about 0.61 advp oz per fl oz and isobutane is about 0.62.

dgever

04-24-2007, 21:47

if u use a canister stove u can simply weigh it on a scale that so many of us have and based on the weight of a full canister u know how much is left

tlbj6142

04-25-2007, 09:52

if u use a canister stove u can simply weigh it on a scale that so many of us have and based on the weight of a full canister u know how much is leftTrue. But most don't have access on the trail to a scale. Though, I guess, they are available in most PO.

Nightwalker

06-01-2007, 06:41

The Pocket Rocket doesn't work too well on an Optimus canister. The inner tip doesn't push the valve open enough. You can super-tighten it, but since the Pocket Rocket doesn't have a brass thread insert like the other stoves, the thread will eventually strip. Don't ask me how I know this...

veteran

07-04-2007, 11:03

Another link to a FAQ about stoves site.

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_GasStoves.htm

tlbj6142

07-05-2007, 10:51

Added FAQ link.

Cookerhiker

07-10-2007, 17:59

tlbj6142

07-10-2007, 22:21

I've searched past threads and this article and wondered if anyone has recent info on recycling cannisters. One poster had said that you take your spent cannister to an outfitter for recycling. Is this true? Which outfitters?I'm not aware of any. My guess is they are considered a type of hazardous waste which means disposal requires special handling. Like empty paint cans.

That said...

While I won't put this in the FAQ, I suspect allowing the stove to burn off all of the fuel on a warm day. And then, with the valve open, "church key" (or nail punch) the bottom of the can would do the trick in a safe mannor.

dzierzak

07-11-2007, 11:20

Coleman PowerMax canisters are made of aluminum and can be recycled like regular aluminum can once they are punctured with the "green key" Coleman provides with the stoves.

Dunno about any others.

ed

tlbj6142

07-11-2007, 14:13

Coleman PowerMax canisters are made of aluminum and can be recycled like regular aluminum can once they are punctured with the "green key" Coleman provides with the stoves.Great winter stove! Fuel can some times be hard to find.

I don't understand why non-PowerMax canister are made of steel. Espeically given that the PowerMax fuel mix has more propane in it than other canister mixes.

veteran

11-09-2007, 17:37

You can float both an empty canister and a full canister in water and mark the water lines. Transfer the full and empty lines to the canister you take to the field. As the canister empties you can measure the remaining fuel level by floating it in water and noting where the water line is relative to the full line and empty lines.

Canister Fuel Can Stand

Colman manufactures a can stand for the XtremeCat™ Catalytic Heater. It is a round base that could also be used on stoves.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/parts/ProductImage2.asp?product_id=5034-700

5034-1231 Base $2.04

partinj

11-14-2007, 14:03

you can find the coleman max fuel at walmart in the camping secton

tlbj6142

11-14-2007, 14:13

you can find the coleman max fuel at walmart in the camping sectonNot always. I have checked 3 wal-marts in my area and none of them have it. I bought 4 cans (2 big, 2 small) a couple of years ago when Gander Mtn decided to stop carrying PowerMax stove/fuel. Which is more than enough as I only use it when I need to melt snow for water (maybe once a year).

I still wish someone could explian why PowerMax "canisters" are AL (and quite light) whereas all traditional canisters are steel. Maybe it is an EU thing that made its way to the States? Not sure when/where canisters started... Its too bad as a traditional fuel cansiter would probably be half the weight.

For those that haven't seen a PowerMax "canister" the big size canister looks and feels as light as an empty hair spray can.

Rosborn88

11-14-2008, 09:55

_terrapin_

11-14-2008, 10:41

Great, post. Lots of useful info. How come you don't mention some of the MSR White gas stoves with refillable canisters? I have a Simmerlite, it's extremely light and efficient and have a 33 oz canister that costs me $.65 to refill with gasoline. This canister will last a long time so I generally only fill it partially depending on trip length. I'm interested in hearing why this type of stove isn't addressed.

Nothing against MSR and other white gas stoves (I own a couple of 'em) but "canister" stoves in the context of this thread, specifically refers to those non-refillable types that burn propane/butane (etc) with IEC threads. The canisters typically have a net fuel weight of 4 oz or 8 oz.

Before these IEC-standard canisters became commonly available, non-refillable "canisters" (eg. "Gaz") were nearly useless except for short hikes, and MSR/white gas stoves ruled the roost for long-distance hiking.

tlbj6142

11-20-2008, 10:34

Great, post. Lots of useful info. How come you don't mention some of the MSR White gas stoves with refillable canisters?As mentioned above, a white gas stove =/= canister stove. A canister stove is really a propane (with some other stuff thrown in) stove.

yaduck9

11-20-2008, 11:42

Not always. I have checked 3 wal-marts in my area and none of them have it. I bought 4 cans (2 big, 2 small) a couple of years ago when Gander Mtn decided to stop carrying PowerMax stove/fuel. Which is more than enough as I only use it when I need to melt snow for water (maybe once a year).

I still wish someone could explian why PowerMax "canisters" are AL (and quite light) whereas all traditional canisters are steel. Maybe it is an EU thing that made its way to the States? Not sure when/where canisters started... Its too bad as a traditional fuel cansiter would probably be half the weight.

For those that haven't seen a PowerMax "canister" the big size canister looks and feels as light as an empty hair spray can.

Educated guess is that steel cannisters are easier / cheaper to produce. Coleman may have gone to a aluminum / proprietary cartridge to be an upper tier mountaineering product. Powermax is recognized as being a better product for winter camping, but never made the jump to a product that is in mass demand.

flemdawg1

09-01-2009, 14:25

The Doyle Hotel in Duncannon now sells canisters. ($6.50)

dzierzak

09-01-2009, 15:31

PowerMax vs other canisters -

PowerMax is a mix of gases and may not need the strength of a steel can. Just a guess.

ed

tlbj6142

09-01-2009, 16:49

PowerMax vs other canisters -
PowerMax is a mix of gases and may not need the strength of a steel can. Just a guess.PowerMax canisters actually have more propane in them than other canisters. And it is the propane that "boils" at such a low temperature.

As mentioned above, I suspect the reason the cans are different is more of a marketing thing for Coleman than anything else. And there is no reason for existing canister manufactures to switch to a new style as the startup cost for a new can material would be prohibitive. And possibly, an AL can in the shape of the current canisters would not be strong enough to support a stove and a full 2-4qt pot. Whereas the PowerMax canisters are not required to support anything.

Jack Tarlin

09-01-2009, 17:51

I just re-read this whole thread, which is now four and a half years old.

There's been a lot of carping talk elsewhere about Whiteblaze, the "good old days", over-Moderation, and other petty complaints.

I just want to say that I thought this article (and the discussion it provoked) is superb, and is a really good example of how positive and helpful this website can be.

I hope this serves as an example to others......instead of taking time and bandwidth to whine about the perceived problems with the website, why not do something constructive and add something positive to the website, like the
post/article that started this thread.

Seems to me THAT's the way to make Whiteblaze better.

tuswm

03-27-2010, 13:24

I was just ing boiling springs PA, there was a small fly fishing shop there. They had only the small canisters and I think they were charging like 10 or 12 bucks but they did have canisters.

Rocketman

04-10-2010, 11:02

https://www.outdoorindustry.org/pdf/HazMatExemptionsFuelWN081209.pdf

The HazMat exemption for the 4 ounce butane cans, especially those by MSR, has been suspended as of last year. DOT previously allowed a "consumer commodity" exemption for these containers.

The details result from a hiker who illegally shipped some canisters by air to Alaska. They were caught and a DOT inspector called in.

The following is taken from the above link.

Shipping some isobutane/propane fuel canisters direct to consumers has gotten much more expensive after DOT concluded the industry is not complying with the agency’s 2002 interpretation of hazmat regulations. In an October, 2002 interpretation letter to a manager at Cascade Design’s Mountain Safety Research (MSR), DOT said that “a mixture of liquefied compressed gases in a container of not more than four (4) fluid ounces capacity” could be exempted from hazardous material packaging and labeling requirements except when shipped by air, in part because the small canisters qualified as a “consumer commodity.” This allowed fuel shipped in such containers to be reclassified as “other regulated material –domestic,” or OSM-D, which in turn allowed FedEx, UPS and other carriers to waive hazmat fees.

When a consumer tried to ship a canister containing 4 fluid ounces of gas to Alaska by air earlier this year, however, a DOT inspector measured the canister and found it could accommodate 6 fluid ounces. Manufacturers say they’ve been shipping 4 fluid ounces of gas in containers of at least 6 fluid ounces to allow room for the gas to expand, but DOT has determined the larger canisters are not OSM-D compliant.

DOT has since inspected several manufacturers and retailers and ordered them to start labeling the canisters as a hazardous material. That will add $22.50 in hazmat fees to every case of 4-fluid-ounce MSR IsoPro canisters shipped through FedEx or UPS, according to Cascade Designs. That’s the same fee the small package delivery services charge the company for a case of 8-fluid-ounce IsoPro canisters, which never had ORM-D status.

Now, shipping of 4 ounce, 12 ounce and 8 ounce canisters of propane/butane are all HazMat shipments with extra costs and limitations.

UPS told me that if I wanted to ship them to myself along the trail, the HazMat fees would apply and I would need to be a certified HazMat shipper by UPS training - which costs $500.

For some long distance hikers, it may be time to evaluate the selection of stove fuel to something else, or to more carefully plan fuel consumption/carrying to get from retail outlet to retail outlet.

jhensley

04-11-2010, 07:55

https://www.outdoorindustry.org/pdf/HazMatExemptionsFuelWN081209.pdf

For some long distance hikers, it may be time to evaluate the selection of stove fuel to something else, or to more carefully plan fuel consumption/carrying to get from retail outlet to retail outlet.

Agreed. Nothing too dangerous about isopropyl or HEET, you wouldn't have to ship it as you can get it widely available and can avoid the negative consequences of what appear to be ever changing regulations associated with shipping canister fuels.

veteran

12-18-2010, 09:59

From Zenstoves.net

Cold Weather Operation

One of the biggest limitation of canister stoves is their decreased performance or complete failure at low temperatures. This is due to the lack of effective gas pressure once the temperature of the canister drops below the boiling point of the fuel. When fuel fails to build up enough pressure to effectively feed your stove, your stove slows and eventually stops. To compound matters, running a stove releases gases from a canister, which cause more of the liquid fuel to vaporize, which requires energy that in turn drops the temperature of the canister even more. The longer you run your stove the colder the canister becomes and you may need intermittent rewarming or continuous heating to keep your canister going. See The Nature and Behaviour of Mixtures of Fuels by Roger Caffin for more information on gas dynamics. (http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_GasStoves.htm)

Propane boils at -43° F (-40° C)

Butane boiling at 31° F (0.5° C)

Isobutane boils at 11° F (-12° C)

One way to improve performance is to use fuels that have lower boiling points. Pure propane is the best commonly used liquefied gas for cold weather but requires a heavy duty steel canister which isn't suitable for most backpacking needs. Butane can be stored in much thinner walled cans, making it more suited for backpacking but butane doesn't work in subfreezing temperatures. Often isobutane and/or propane are added to butane cans to allow the stove to get started in subfreezing temperatures. Unfortunately, in very low temperatures, the propane and/or isobutane will boil off and leave the majority of the butane fuel unusable at those temperatures.

Current generation canisters contain a mix of Propane and Isobutane, (plus sometimes regular Butane.) The problem with regular butane is that it boils at -0.5 degrees C. So if the ambient temp is below freezing, your fuel would not vaporize. Isobutane is better in that it has a boiling point of -11.7 degrees C. (Propane boils at -42.1 degrees C.) So, why not just use Propane in the canisters?? Well, Propane has a higher vapor pressure, so requires a stronger (heavier!) can -- like the giant cans used for car camping, or your backyard BBQ. So, in order to keep the small canisters light, yet still work at low temperatures, manufactures use the Propane/Iso blend.

This blend approach is not completely trouble free, though. The different gases in the canister boil off at different rates. So, as you run the stove, the Propane is used up first -- leaving behind the (iso)butane. This explains why partially used canisters are particularly bad in cold weather -- there is little propane left in them.

To make things worse, the fuel in a regular canister vaporizes inside the canister as the stove is run. This causes evaporative cooling of the fuel, lowering it's temperature. So even if you start off with a warm canister, after running it for several minutes, it will cool and it's output will drop off or stop. That's why canisters are problematic for things like snow melting where 30-40 minute boils are needed.

Ok, so what about the liquid feed canisters:

1) Since the fuel evaporation occurs outside the canister in a preheat tube prior to combustion in the stove, canister cooling is minimized during prolonged usage. This allows them to provide consistent output over long burn times.

2) The liquid fuel bled from the canister always contains close to the original mix of propane/butane. Because the fuel does not evaporate in the canister, the propane doesn't get used up first. This makes liquid feed canisters perform more consistently over the life of the canister.

[If you just invert a regular canister to get liquid feed, the final 10g or so of fuel won't come out in liquid form and operation reverts more or less to regular gas-feed operation for the last few minutes of fuel use.]

You may want to set your fuel on an insulating platform to protect it from snow or ice.

Another way to improve fuel performance in the cold is to get the fuel temperature up. There are several ways to to this and some are quite dangerous if done inappropriately.

Safe methods of warming fuel canisters

keep it in your jacket to warm it up

sleep with it in your bag

place or dip it in warm water

pour a bit of hot water on it

urinate on your stove

chemical hand-warmers may help a little

Risky methods of warming fuel canisters - using heat from a stove - overzealousness and carelessness can lead to an explosion - do so at your own risk

use a carefully ventilated windscreen (if you do too good of a job insulating the canister, it may explode)

use a heat exchanger (flattened copper wire with one end wrapped around the canister once and with the other end protruding up into or near the flame)

warm a canister by placing it near the stove (too close for too long and you might end up dead or without one of your hands)

Note - most canisters are designed with concave bottom that will pop outwards before complete canister rupture if over pressurized. The valves themselves may also bleed off overly pressurized gasses unless a stove or lantern is securely attached to it.

Another method to maximize fuel pressures is to feed your stove with liquid instead of gas fuel. This will allow the vapor pressure of the more volatile fuels to force mixed liquid fuel into your stove instead of just burning up first and leaving unusable butane. There will also be less phase change from liquid to gas in the canister resulting in less canister cooling. This concept is used with the Coleman PowerMax fuel canisters, which have a weighted diptube to pick up the liquid at the bottom of the can and not the gas at the top.

http://zenstoves.net/Canister/PowermaxAdapt.jpg
Coleman® (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___85288) Exponent® Powermax® Fuel Adapter

With some setups, canisters may be used upside down. This would force out liquid instead of gas into your fuel line, similar to running PowerMax canisters. Coleman in fact makes an adapter to run screw on canister upside down.

Fits the 9770 series Coleman® Exponent® Fyrestorm™ series stoves

* Legs swing-out from adapter to form stable platform for inverted canister.

* Unique liquid-withdrawal method for threaded canister fuels produces high-performance in cold weather or high-altitudes.

The Primus Himalaya manual states that one safe cold environment trick is to:

"Turn down the control valve as low as possible. Now hold the gas cartridge and turn it upside down slowly and very carefully. While doing so, you must never lift the cartridge higher than the stove itself to avoid a sudden burst of flames."

When asked via email if the MSR Windpro could operate with the canister upside down, a tech at MSR replied:

"Yes, you can turn the canister upside down when using the WindPro but you would want to use the same precautions stated in the Primus manual."

Since the Primus Himalaya EasyFuel, MSR WindPro, MSR Rapidfire, and Snowpeak GigaPower BF Stove [GS-300A] have similar designs with a hose connection and heated vaporizer tube, they should be able to run PowerMax canisters (you may need an adapter) or regular fuel canisters upside down - do so at your own risk.

There are several remote fueled canister stoves, such as the Markill Spider, that don't have vaporizer tubes (generators). This feature is desirable to vaporize the fuel prior to it exiting the jet. Running a canister upside down without a vaporizer tube isn't recommended and can be dangerous.

Gauging the Contents of a Gas Cartridge

You can float both an empty canister and a full canister in water and mark the water lines. Transfer the full and empty lines to the canister you take to the field. As the canister empties you can measure the remaining fuel level by floating it in water and noting where the water line is relative to the full line and empty lines.

Fhunjunkie

03-15-2011, 19:21

USPS page 342 Gases (Hazard Class 2) (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm)

342 Gases (Hazard Class 2)

342.1 Definition

Hazard Class 2 consists of three divisions:

Division 2.1, Flammable Gases. A material that is a gas at 68° F (20° C) or less and 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) of pressure. Flammable gases also include materials that have a boiling point of 68° F (20° C) or less at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) and that are ignitable at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) when in a mixture of 13 percent or less by volume with air or that have a flammable range at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa) with air of at least 12 percent regardless of the lower limit. These conditions must be established in accordance with ASTM E681–85, Standard Test Method for Concentration Limits of Flammability of Chemicals, or other approved equivalent method. The flammability of aerosols must be determined using the tests specified in 49 CFR 173.306(i).
Division 2.2, Nonflammable, Nontoxic Gases. A material that does not meet the definition of Division 2.1 or 2.3 and exerts in its packaging an absolute pressure of 40.6 psia (280 kPa) or greater at 68° F (20° C).
Division 2.3, Toxic Gases. A material that is poisonous by inhalation and is a gas at 68° F (20° C) or less and a pressure of 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa), or a material that has a boiling point of 68° F (20° C) or less at 14.7 psi (101.3 kPa).

342.2 Mailability

The following conditions apply to the mailing of gases:

International Mail. All gases are prohibited.
Domestic Mail via Air Transportation. Flammable gases in Division 2.1 and toxic gases in Division 2.3 are prohibited. Nonflammable gases in Division 2.2 are generally permitted if the material can qualify as an ORM–D material and meet the quantity limitations and packaging requirements in 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824) and 342.4 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898848).
Domestic Mail via Surface Transportation. Toxic gases in Division 2.3 are prohibited. Flammable gases in Division 2.1 and nonflammable gases in Division 2.2 are generally permitted if the material can qualify as an ORM–D material and meet the quantity limitations and packaging requirements in 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824) and 342.4 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898848).

342.21 Nonmailable Gases

When any gas that is nonmailable is discovered in the mailstream, the procedures in DM–601–05–1, Hazardous Materials Acceptance and Handling, must be followed if the materials present an immediate threat to persons or property. The procedures in POM 139.118 are followed when there is no immediate threat to persons or property.
The following are some specific types of nonmailable gases:

Cigarette Lighters (NA1226). Generally, lighters charged with fuel and having an ignition system or any similar heating, lighting, or ignition device are a Class 3 flammable liquid and are nonmailable. However, if an approval number is obtained from DOT, consideration for mailing may be requested from the PCSC manager under the provisions in 343.25 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_018.htm#ep899056) and DMM 601.10.13.4.
Oxygen, Refrigerated Liquid. Liquid oxygen (UN1073) is prohibited from mailing under any circumstances.
Fire Extinguishers. Fire extinguishers (UN0275, UN0276, UN0323, or UN0381) that contain propellant explosives are prohibited from mailing.Note: See 342.22 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898772) for mailable types of fire extinguishers.
Toxic Gases. All Division 2.3 toxic gases are prohibited from mailing.

342.22 Mailable Gases

The following are examples of mailable gases:

Butane. Butane (UN1011) and Receptacles, small (UN2037) with butane or butane mixtures are Division 2.1 flammable gases. Butane gases that can qualify as ORM–D materials are acceptable only in domestic mail via surface transportation when properly prepared under 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824) and Packaging Instruction 2A in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120).
Oxygen, Compressed. Oxygen (UN1072) is a Division 2.2 nonflammable gas and is acceptable in domestic mail only if it can be reclassified as an ORM–D material. The requirements in 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824) and Packaging Instruction 2B in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) must be followed.
Propane. Propane is a Division 2.1 flammable gas and is acceptable in domestic mail via surface transportation only if it can be reclassified as an ORM–D material. The requirements in 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824) and Packaging Instruction 2A in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) must be followed. Propane is nonmailable in domestic mail via air transportation.
Fire Extinguishers.Extinguishers that contain a Division 2.2 nonflammable compressed gas and are assigned UN1044 are mailable if they do not contain methyl bromide gas mixtures and the contents are held in DOT specification 2P or 2Q containers. Only one extinguisher per mailpiece is permitted, and the compressed gas contained within the fire extinguisher must be nonflammable, nonpoisonous, or noncorrosive as required under 49 CFR 173.309(a). The requirements in Packaging Instruction 2B in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) must be followed.Note: Fire extinguishers assigned UN1774 are mailable as Class 8 corrosives subject to the limitations for corrosives in 348 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_023.htm#ep899976) and DMM 601.10.19.
Empty Compressed Gas Containers. Empty used containers of compressed gas are mailable subject to the same restrictions that applied when the container was filled (because residual amounts of the hazardous material might remain present). Empty, unused (i.e., new) containers are mailable without restriction.
Aerosol Paint Products. Aerosol paint products that are defined as flammable compressed gases are acceptable in the domestic mail via surface transportation only if they can qualify as ORM–D materials and meet the quantity limitations and applicable packaging requirements in 342.3 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898824), 342.4 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_017.htm#ep898848), and DMM 601.10.12.
Other Mailable Gases. Materials whose contents are under pressure, such as carbonated beverages, biological/medical products, cosmetics, foodstuffs and soaps, electronic tubes, and audible fire alarm systems (except for any that may contain poisonous gases or others that may be specifically excluded by 49 CFR 173.306), are acceptable in the domestic mail as follows:

Carbonated Beverages. These items are not regulated as hazardous materials and are acceptable without restriction. Carbonated beverages must be properly packaged under DMM 601.1–8.
Biological Products or Medical Preparations. A product or preparation in a nonrefillable metal primary receptacle charged with a nonflammable solution (containing a biological product or a medical preparation that heat could deteriorate) may be accepted for domestic surface mail only, provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2F in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) are followed.
Foodstuffs and Soaps. These materials are mailable provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2D in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) are met.
Electronic Tubes. These materials are mailable without restriction if the volume is 30 cubic inches or less and the tube is charged with gas to a pressure of 35 psig or less. Such tubes must be packed in a strong outer container and meet the general packaging requirements in DMM 601.1–8.
Audible Fire Alarm Systems. An audible fire alarm system powered by a compressed gas is acceptable in the domestic mail via surface transportation provided the conditions in Packaging Instruction 2E in Appendix C (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_001.htm#ep100120) are followed.

342.3 Packaging

Mailable compressed gases must be packaged to protect valves and fittings and to ensure integrity of the primary receptacle during transport. Containers must use recessed valves, screw thread caps, tap closures, or other means to prevent accidental discharge.
The following conditions apply:

Nonmetal Containers. A mailable gas is acceptable in an other–than–metal primary receptacle if the water capacity is 4 fluid ounces (7.22 cubic inches) or less. Packaging Instruction 2A or 2B, as applicable, must be followed.
Metal Containers. Mailable nonflammable and flammable compressed gases are acceptable in metal primary receptacles thathave a water capacity up to 33.8 fluid ounces (1 liter or 61.0 cubic inches). The liquid content of the material and the gas must not completely fill the primary receptacle at 130° F (55° C). Additionally, the following apply:

A DOT 2P container must be used if the internal pressure is from 140 psig to 160 psig at 130° F (55° C).
A DOT 2Q container must be used if the pressure is from 161 psig to 180 psig at 130° F (55° C).
A container with an internal pressure over 180 psig at 130° F (55° C) is prohibited from mailing.
Packaging Instruction 2A or 2B, as applicable, must be followed.

Flammable Gases. A mailable flammable compressed gas is restricted to 4 fluid ounces in a nonmetal primary receptacle or 33.8 fluid ounces (1 liter) in a metal primary receptacle per mailpiece Packaging Instruction 2A must be followed.
Nonflammable Gases. A mailable nonflammable gas is permitted in individual 4 fluid ounce nonmetal primary receptacles or 33.8 fluid ounce (1 liter) metal primary receptacles. Multiple primary receptacles may be securely packed within a single, strong outer packaging. Each mailpiece must not exceed a total weight of 25 pounds. Packaging Instruction 2B must be followed.

342.4 Marking and Documentation

For air transportation, parcels containing mailable gases must be plainly and durably marked on the address side with “ORM–D AIR” immediately following or below the proper shipping name (e.g., Consumer Commodity). A properly completed shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods prepared in triplicate must be affixed to the outside of the mailpiece.
For surface transportation, parcels containing mailable gases must be plainly and durably marked on the address side with “Surface Only” or “Surface Mail Only” and “ORM–D,” immediately following or below the proper shipping name (e.g., Consumer Commodity). A shipper’s declaration for dangerous goods is not required for mailable gases sent via surface transportation.
342.5 Mailability Rulings

In addition to the information required in 215.2 (http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c2_005.htm#ep772826) and DMM 601.10.6, requests for mailability rulings on gases and products containing compressed gases need to include the following information:

Documentation indicating whether or not the contents are a flammable mixture when dispersed.
The internal pressure within the primary receptacle at 70° F (21° C) and 130° F (55° C).
Documentation as to whether or not the liquid contents completely fill the container at 70° F (21° C) and 130° F (55° C).
The bursting strength of the primary receptacle.
The capacity of the primary receptacle and the number of primary receptacles proposed to be packed within a single mailpiece.
The design methods intended to prevent accidental discharge of the contents.

GottaWalk Ken

04-11-2011, 19:38

Rocketman is confusing several shipping regulations above.

Yes, DOT has made changes to the shipping industry about the "4 oz" canisters.

Yes, UPS and FedEx require lots of forms, trainig, etc to ship hazardous materials.

BUT, the US Postal Service still allows us to ship small quantities - Consumer Commodity - by surface mail. The postal regulations as posted above, allow us to ship 2 100 gram canisters or 1 220 gram canister per package. The canisters should be securely packed and the package must be under 25 lbs and labelled "Consumer Commodity" and "Ground Only".

Many postal employees will tell you that fuel cannot be shipped. Print a copy of
http://www.gottawalk.com/shipping_fuel.htm and take it to the post office with your box containing fuel. It has worked for many hikers.

tenlots

04-15-2011, 13:53

OMG thanks. I will do just that. awesome.

jbwood5

04-15-2011, 15:27

I'm wondering if I can legally ship a single CV206 butane canister following the instructions in this thread. All I can find on the specifications is 190 G. These are pretty small butane canisters and they are the old puncture type from the 1980's. I've got the stove (works great) and just bought 15 canisters off EBay, which by the way were shipped priority mail with no Haz-Mat or surface label (bad on the shipper, but he probably didn't know better). I am almost certain that no store or outfitter along the AT carries these anymore. Too bad, because they are light and easy to use and still widely used in Europe.

I'd appreciate any input on shipping these GD.

bunk

05-23-2011, 11:36

Does anybody know the approximate current cost of 8oz canisters along the trail? I'm trying to figure out if the savings are worth the pain of including them in my mail drops. Leaving for Katahdin on June 18.

WilliamD

06-15-2011, 13:29

You know somebody correct me if I am wrong however when I do ALL the logical math there is basically Minimal, as in 1/2 OZ or less savings in weight with a canister. Take a Soto at 2.6 OZ and a can and a half of fuel at 12.7 plus 8.7 for the half can and you get 24 ounces. My dragonfly with an 11 oz can filled and wind screens weighs in at 32 OZ. So you're net savings is 8 OZ, less wind screens only save 6 OZ. NOW if you buy a simmerlite MSR you shave 5.5 oz off so your gain here is 1/2 OZ. Also the more disposable canisters you need to carry the more dead weight you have so the equation gets worse with more canisters. For Bug out I think the Dragonfly is optimal but before I'd buy into iso/propane I'd get a Simmerlite. I mean aren't you always carrying at least 1 and a half cans?

Kerosene

06-15-2011, 16:34

I've never carried extra fuel cans, but I can see where one might want to if their re-supply stops don't work out just right. Then again, you could have that issue with any fuel type.

To keep it apples-to-apples, you really need to include windscreens for each setup, but some setups might weigh less than others. Also, white gas provides more BTUs per ounce of fuel, so you really need to measure against water boiled, not how much fuel or canisters you're carrying.

I've used canisters, alcohol, and white gas stoves, but I keep coming back to my canister for section hikes given the simplicity and speed. I'd probably go with an alcohol stove if I was out for more than a few weeks, and white gas might be a candidate for winter hiking. I always hated the way white gas would seem to "leak" out of my fuel bottle or stove and smell up my pack. My biggest problem with a canister is trying to figure how many boils are left and where to pack the canister itself.

attroll

11-13-2011, 20:14

I have closed this thread. Reason for closing is because I promoted it to an article and have posted it here http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/content.php?42.