I recently helped a beginning AT section hiker with a few things amoung which were some knots and how to do some things related to handling lines. As a guess I suspect other beginners may be just as uninformed so I am starting this thread to talk about knots and other rope/line handling things. Hopefully this will result in an article for the WB archives.

1. The hiker was using a carabiner on the end of the bear bag rope but noted in passing that the rope did not seem to be well tied to the 'biner. I demonstrated how to make a loop using a bowline knot and then hook the 'biner through the loop. Personally I only use a 'biner when hooking my food bag to a cable system or to one of the SNP's bear poles - when using a bear bag I just use a bowline to attach the food bag to the line - easy to tie and easy to untie. I consider the bowline to be one of the most useful knots to know. Variations include the weavers knot. Animated images of the bowline knot: http://www.42brghtn.mistral.co.uk/knots/42ktbowl.html and http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/AbowV.html Another useful loop knot is the figure 8 knot tied in the bight - see pictures: http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/inlinefigure8loop.htm

2. The hiker also mentioned that there were times when getting the bear bag rope up over the branch was difficult just using the 'biner for the weight. Here I showed the hiker how to attach the bear bag rope to a water bottle (1 liter soda bottle) using a constrictor knot. This weight is much easier to throw since one can adjust the weight by drinking some of the water and its fairly easy to throw a partially filled bottle accurately over a branch. Note I use the method for making the constrictor knot by doing a loop around the bottle and then taking the loop putting in a half twist and bringing it over the top of the bottle - this is much faster than the typical way of making the constrictor knot and permits the knot to be tied in the middle of the line easily. Note the constrictor knot is designed to hold tight and is not a slip knot - to untie work the part of the knot that is on top of the overhand part of the knot off to the side then untie the overhand knot. Animated image of the way I tie a constrictor knot on the bottle neck: http://www.ropeworks.biz/archive/Aconstri.html

3. The bear bag rope the hiker was using was the mil spec 550 cord aka parachute cord and I pointed out to the hiker that some weight could be saved with no loss of function by stripping the center 7 stands out of the sheath. Stripped 550 cord is what I use for the arch strap of my gaiters with a bowline on each end to attach to the grommets in the gaiters. I sometimes also use stripped 550 cord for my shoe laces. In both applications the 550 cord lasts longer than I originally expected.

4. Since the bear bag was rather tangled I also showed the hiker how to butterfly the line and how that technique makes it easy to keep the line from tangling and how easy it is to pull the line out from the butterfly for use when needed. I butterfly the line across my forearm forming the cross in the middle of the arm then use the last bit of the line to wrap the cross area to keep the cross in place - its the cross that keeps the line from tangling. An image of what I mean by butterflying : http://weavingworld.ca/pics/tip-butterfly.jpg

5. For tent stakes I use aluminum gutter nails and to attach the lines from the tarp to the nails I just wrap the line around the nail 10 to 20 times and then stick the nail in the ground - if I need to adjust the length of the line I either move the nail or add some wraps of the line to the nail. The nails I use have a roughened surface so they do not rotate in the ground and they hold the line wrapped around them very well

6. Another knot that I use is the Hennessy Hammock knot for attaching the line from the hammack to the tree saver straps. Illustrations and video : http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/hiking/sections/gear/shelter/hknot.htm

7. Although I don't use this knot myself I know a number of hikers us a tautline hitch for making the adjustment of their line attached to the tarp easy. Pictures of the steps in tieing the tautline hitch: http://www.iland.net/~jbritton/tautlinehitch.htm

8. One thing that I commonly do when I want to hang something on a tree is to take a boot lace that I have tied into a loop - make a doubled loop and hook a 'biner into it - to hang something on a tree just pull either the doubled loop or a single loop (for bigger trees) around the tree and hook the 'biner into the loop(s) - then hang whatever you wish from the 'biner.

9. To attach a tarp to a tree I use a round turn and two half hitches where the second hitch is slipped (tied with the bight instead of the end). Illustrated example of a round turn and two half hitches: http://www.42brghtn.mistral.co.uk/knots/42ktrndt.html

10. One thing that is quite useful for some applications is a cord lock. One of the ways that I use this is as a belt replacement - take a doubled length of stripped 550 cord and put the loop end through the cord lock - tie a series of overhand or figure eight knots in the other end - thread the replacement belt through the belt loops and then slip the knots through the loop - adjust for desired tightness then tighten the cord lock to lock the loop around the desired knot in the other end. Other uses of cord locks are typically when used with shock cord for things like the strap under the foot for gaiters and for snugging up clothing to the body.

11. While observing a new tarp user have some difficulty rigging the tarp with trekking poles a few notes on this use is in order but not being a tarp user myself please take this advice with a fairly large grain of salt. Anyways one approach to an A-frame type of tarp setup is to a.) stake out the tarp first allowing enough loose fabric so that one can raise the center ridgeline to the desired height; b.) use a clove hitch to attach the line from the point of the tarp setup to the trekking pole on one side - this is done so that the trekking pole is right at the point of the ridge; c.) extend the line from the clove hitch to a tent stake or other tie out point (rock etc). See animated image for clove hitch: http://www.goals.com/ClassRm/knots/clove.htm but note that in this application it is more typically tied by throwing a couple loops over the end of the trekking pole - see alternative technique at bottom of this link : http://www.boatsafe.com/marlinespike/clovehitch.htm Once one side is done do the same on the other side and then adjust the trekking poles' length and position for the desired tightness of the tarp.

12. If the tarp user wishes to setup a ridge line with trekking poles before tossing the tarp over the line then a slightly different techique is needed since the tarp is not in place to supply the lateral stability for the pole. In this case a large loop of line is attached to the trekking pole and two tent stakes are used to form a triangle - the line goes from a clove hitch at the trekking pole down to one stake then over the ground to the other stake and then back up to the trekking pole where it is attached with a second clove hitch. The line is then run over to the other trekking pole and the same technique is used on that end. The poles are then adjusted as to position and height and then the tarp is spread across the ridge line and staked down. A tautline hitch on each point can be used to attach the tarp to the ridge line or the tarp can be tied to the trekking pole with a round turn and two half hitches.

13. RockyTrail mentioned a good technique for hanging a plain bear bag in the thread on bear bag hanging : "I've always used a plain nylon sack (without a bottom strap); just twist the top closed, fold it over drybag-style and attach the rope using a simple cow hitch (a.k.a. lark's head) cinched up tight around the folded over top. Quick to tie and untie, no leaks. You can also quickly attach multiple bags to the same rope this way. You can add a half-hitch or use a "pedigreed cow hitch" if you want more security against slippage for the lowest bag, but I haven't had one slip yet. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Hitches.htm , scroll to No. 8". This idea sounded so good I started using it myself - I really like the idea using a plain plastic or silnylon bag - I use a trash bag as a collection bag putting all the bear bag stuff into the trash bag - works great for keeping the stuff dry using this technique to attach the line to the bag.

14. CanoeCamper over on Around the Campfire forum mentioned a knot that may be of interest to people hanging a hammock that uses a metal ring - the suggestion was to use an Anchor Bend (http://www.folsoms.net/knots/animations/fifgif.cgi?gifname='aniab.gif'&title=Anchor%20(or%20Fisherman's)%20Bend) . This knot may also be useful to people tieing a line to a 'biner as was mentioned in item 1. above - the Anchor Bend knot will wear better than the bowline that I suggested above.

What other knots should I discuss in this article? The intent is to link to other resources such as http://www.netknots.com/ for illustrations but I want to talk about the uses of the various knots in the context of backpackers.

The basic square knot often gets overlooked in these tutorials, but it never ceases to amaze me how few people actually know the difference between a square knot and a granny or the advantages of the square knot over the granny. Half-hitches and whole hitches are useful. How about the water knot?

Hey HOI, you can actually insert pictures into the articles in this part of the forum. If you have some diagrams you want to show, that can be done and it is probably a good idea particularly for this subject.

Climbers knot or figure 8 on a bight works well for the bear bag deal and is easier to untie when wt is put on it.(I hang 2 bags) The round turn with 2 half hitches, and truckers hitch come to mind. I use both on my hammock set up. Round turn on the tarp grommets/tree, and truckers inside for my bug net. I also use the tautline hitch for my stakes.

I'd think the 'wrap three, pull two' would be useful for the hammock freaks. Basically the knot doesn't get loaded when weighted. All the knots I know are of the climbing variety, maybe even some of which you already described. I suppose they go by different names for different sports/occupations/etc. The constrictor knot I assume is the slip knot.

7. Although I don't use this knot myself I know a number of hikers us a tautline hitch for makeing the adjustment of their line attached to the tarp easy.Great knot. Have one on the end of all my tarp guylines. It's a little tough to tie with very small diameter string, but if you hold the knot bwteen two fingers so that it will maintain its shape until you pull it together, it works okay. Sometimes you can't move stakes around and sometimes it's nice to tie to a tree.

Those are some sweet animations! Also--I'd never learned how to tie a constrictor like that, thanks.

I figure one important thing about knots is being able to easily untie them in the morning.

I use the bowline quite often, it's my choice of hammock rope knots, but I put a quick release in it like Clark shows on his web site in his hammock manual page ( http://www.junglehammock.com/tips.php and hit your Page Down key about 3 times).

I prefer to use a 4 wrap knot that Ed Speer recommonds to tie my tarp ridgeline taut and finish it off with two half hitches, the last half hitch I use the quick release trick. (I use the bowline with quick release on the first tarp ridgeline tree and the 4 wrap knot on the second tarp ridgeline tree.)

I use the clove hitch on my smooth shafted stakes (Ray Jardine's book). They are easy to tie for this application, you basically form two loops and insert the stake. In the morning, I pull my stake, slide the clove hitch down the smooth shaft and just pull on the cord to remove any twist... this cleans the dirt of my stakes as well.

4. ...how to butterfly the line and how that technique makes it easy to keep the line from tangling and how easy it is to pull the line out from the butterfly for use when needed. I butterfly the line across my forearm forming the cross in the middle of the arm then use the last bit of the line to wrap the cross area to keep the cross in place - its the cross that keeps the line from tangling.

What other knots should I discuss in this article? . . .I want to talk about the uses of the various knots in the context of backpackers.I learned the butterfly coil when I first started doing treework. Had to do a double take when I realized I was doing it wrong (I was not doubling the rope; guess it was a bad habit handed down). I have found some difficulty doing it with my thinner ropes. Here is an image with a question that follows.
http://www.swcp.com/~nmmc/climbrocks/knots/butterfly_coil.GIF
(from http://www.swcp.com/~nmmc/climbrocks/knots/knots.html#butterfly_coil)

My question for the forum:
What tricks do you use to control length just to make a neater storage? Does this even matter, as Hog on Ice notes "the Cross" is what matters?
Any storage tricks for fitting in pack (ie., twisting, folding, etc.) Would I be better to stuff this into a bag?
Thank you in advance.

I learned the butterfly coil when I first started doing treework. Had to do a double take when I realized I was doing it wrong (I was not doubling the rope; guess it was a bad habit handed down). I have found some difficulty doing it with my thinner ropes. Here is an image with a question that follows.
http://www.swcp.com/~nmmc/climbrocks/knots/butterfly_coil.GIF
(from http://www.swcp.com/~nmmc/climbrocks/knots/knots.html#butterfly_coil)

My question for the forum:
What tricks do you use to control length just to make a neater storage? Does this even matter, as Hog on Ice notes "the Cross" is what matters?
Any storage tricks for fitting in pack (ie., twisting, folding, etc.) Would I be better to stuff this into a bag?
Thank you in advance.

Unfortunately there are two main methods of butterflying line - in the climbing context where one is dealing with fairly heavy rope the technique you illustrated above is referred to as butterflying. These days this technique has been largely replaced by the use of rope bags.

The technique I use came from working with much smaller line - think yarn or twine for macrame. With this small stuff you hang one end of the line between a couple fingers and then wrap the line in a figure 8 between your thumb and little finger (some people use thumb and index finger) forming the cross in the middle - when one gets to the end of the line the last bit of line is wrapped fairly tightly around the cross or some people will use a rubber band. For bear bag rope (stripped 550 line approx 30 to 50 feet long) this is too much to get between your thumb and little finger and so I wind the figure 8 over the point of my elbow and the palm of my hand and as with the small stuff just wrap the last bit of the cord tightly over the cross in the middle to finish it up and to hold the cross in place.

I would say for the butterfly technique presented, I find the halfway point for the rope and lay down arm's length coils on each side of the hand and with about two coil lengths remaining, tie it onto my body. Sometimes I'm too long, othertimes too short. Too long, maybe wrap around the belly again. Too short, take off and let loose another coil from the stack. But usually when it's too short I'll just make do, like on time where I just tied a loop in each end, draped it over the shoulder and binered the loops to the harness.

Anyway you do it (and you can see I'm lazy and not too specific about how I do), it's still useful to know as it's a great way to transition from climbing/rappelling to scrambling/walking. Rope bags are for the lycra-sport-weenies;) As for packing, just drape the whole bundle over the top of the pack with lid open and then close the lid and cinch down to keep it in place.

Added a couple notes on use of line with a tarp and trekking poles - please look over and suggest improvements - I rarely rig a tarp with trekking poles.

Just a formatting reccomendation, but the first letter of the first word after each number entry should be apatalized.

Also, what section of the article contents does this go under? Is this an existing area or do I need to start a new section and what would that be?

Just a formatting reccomendation, but the first letter of the first word after each number entry should be apatalized.

Also, what section of the article contents does this go under? Is this an existing area or do I need to start a new section and what would that be?
I agree with the suggested formatting and have modified it per your recommendation.

Well its still a work in progress but ultimately I would guess it would go into the Thru-hiker's Advice section since it is mainly aimed at beginners

I intended thru-hiker advice to be more advice on thru-hiking. I think this knot stuff is applicable accross the board to all hikers. Maybe there should be a "Techniques and Tricks of the Trade" section that could include stuff like how to pitch a tarp, how to repair a Thermarest, how to tie knots, etc.

I intended thru-hiker advice to be more advice on thru-hiking. I think this knot stuff is applicable accross the board to all hikers. Maybe there should be a "Techniques and Tricks of the Trade" section that could include stuff like how to pitch a tarp, how to repair a Thermarest, how to tie knots, etc.

OK sounds good to me

I added the Anchor Bend to the list of useful knots for attaching a line to a ring or 'biner - this was a suggestion from CanoeCamper over on the Around the Campfire forum.

Hogs on Ice,

I believe I was the beginner section hiker you referred to on your article of knots. Early April, Shenandoah valley, you called me "Straw" as I was wearing a straw hat! Anyway,,,you were a nice surprise at the end of a long day for me. My bear bag worked much better after you fixed the knot on the carbiner and straightened out my horrible tangled rope.

4whim

4whim, good to hear from you again and welcome to Whiteblaze

What diameter of rope is suggested to carry for bear bag and/or general purpose?

I carry 40 feet of the AirCore Pro 2.2-mm braided cord (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aircore_pro_ursalite_bear_bag_hanging_cord.html), with a weight of one ounce. The rope develops kinks pretty easily, but it is lighter than 1/8" parachute cord and other general purpose cord.

What diameter of rope is suggested to carry for bear bag and/or general purpose?

what I use for bear bag rope is stripped 550 cord - that is to say 550 cord with the center strands removed leaving only the sheath - I also use this for shoe laces and the straps for gaiters - you may also be able to find flat "shoelace" cord available that would be roughly equivalent to the stripped 550 cord - generally I prefer a cord that won't cut into the bark of a tree - avoids problems getting the bag stuck in the tree

for tarp tie-outs I use a 2 mm white cord that I got with my first tarp from Oware - I have recently added some slingshot tensioners to these cords

U.S. Rope and Cable (http://www.us-rope-cable.com/) sells an aborist throw line (http://secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=2704540&showprevnext=1) that is 2.2-mm Spectra, 180 feet, for $28.46. They also sell the same thing in 1.75-mm for $24.68. This seems like it would be a good product because it was designed to be thrown over tree limbs, and the price per foot is hard to beat.

I found a better price and lower shipping changes for the same products at E-Rigging.com (http://www.e-rigging.com/store_products.cfm?Subcat_ID=320&Cat_ID=50&Menu_Choice=Catalog). This Web site is owned by Sea-Land Distributors, LLC (http://www.sea-landdistributors.com/index.htm).

I think the arborist throw line is very similar to the AirCore Pro 2.2-mm braided cord (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aircore_pro_ursalite_bear_bag_hanging_cord.html) that Kerosene mentioned.