Ethical sources of down insulation?

[cats.don't.camp]

I was going to write to different companies asking them the source of their down but thought maybe somebody had already made a similar list? I'm not having very much luck finding one. Most down comes from birds that have been live-plucked or force-fed for foie gras. There are plenty of articles about it but none that list companies and how they stand on the issue. The articles say to choose a company that collects naturally shed down from molting but then fail to tell you who those companies are. I read on Outdoor Gear Lab's website that Western Mountaineering collects them from nests. I've also read on the PETA site that Coleman has recently stopped using down all-together and only uses synthetic insulation. Patagonia has announced 100% traceable down but not until their Fall/Winter 2014 collection. These were the only three companies I could find just by doing a Google search. So before I send out a zillion emails, does anyone know where I could find a list someone else has already made? If you don't know of a list, do you know of one particular company and what their practice is so I can start my own list? Thanks!

[Meriadoc]

Just chiming in that I would love to see such a list as well. I decided a while back that I wouldn't buy new down equipment until I had this sorted. Fortunately, I haven't bought anything in quite some time .

[mudsocks]

Where did you read most down comes from live-plucked or foie gras? It's my understanding that most down is a by-product of the food industry.

[Odd Man Out]

Did a quick search and came up with these:

http://tundrasleepingbags.com/Ethics.asp

http://www.crux.uk.com/en/sleeping-bags.php?info=36

http://www.thedownproject.me.uk/down-codex.php
This company web site has a feature that allows you to enter of code# from your product to find the source of down for your specific gear.

[Dogwood]

I say good for both of you. I tip my hat. But expect some backlash of anti PETA comments around here.

This is mostly about ethical goose down sources used in more common UK/European available goose down sleeping bags but I'm sure with a little research you can connect the dots back to ethical sources of down used in sleeping bags and other down gear, such as apparel, for sale in the U.S.

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/buyer...epingbags.aspx

These three companies specifically say they use ethically sourced down for their sleeping bags. Can't vouch for any company though. I simply do not know enough about them. You can do searches for ethically sourced down apparel like jackets/vests too.

** http://www.crux.uk.com/en/sleeping-bags.php?info=36 **

** http://tundrasleepingbags.com/default.asp **

** http://www.kathmandu.com.au/articles...g-of-down.html **

http://www.treehugger.com/sustainabl...-or-green.html

This article on North Faces down sourcing standards seemed interesting but what really caught my attention were the links to Control Union Certifications and Textile Exchange. http://www.triplepundit.com/2013/11/north-face/

This is another organization like PETA, the Animal Welfare Institute, where you might find some valuable info: https://awionline.org/awi-quarterly/...-and-duck-farm Also check World Society for the Protection of Animals(WSPA). Alpkit did a two part article on the ethical down sourcing used in outdoor's gear industry. Here's the link from the second part: https://www.alpkit.com/develop/ethic...urcing-part-2/

http://www.idfl.com/articles/IDFLLiv...b2009.pdf*This is old though, from 2009. It's probably where Brad Groves is getting the info below.

Had a discussion on this topic on BackPacking Light several yrs ago. Franco from Melbourne posted an interesting link(he posts here on WB as well). Here's Brad Grove's comment on that thread but I was highly skeptical of the claim that 99% of goose down comes from the goose meat industry: "For those not interested enough to follow Franco's link(given above), over 99% of our down is, indeed, a by-product of the food industry. I found it interesting that there's actually "too much" down on the market, to the point that some processors in France and China discard the down they process while preparing goose..." Since Brad's comment was made 4 yrs ago I don't know how all the sources of down MAY have changed but I would contend that there's more goose down on the world, and especially U.S. outdoors market, than ever before. Personally though, I'm HIGHLY SKEPTICAL of claims that anyone or any oversight or industry group makes stating 99% of the down on the global or U.S. down market is obtained after the birds are slaughtered for the goose and duck meat industry. TO ME, that would have to entail a HUGE increase of goose meat consumption; I'm not seeing that.

Although, this should not be taken to assume every biz decision a company makes in regards to being environmentally and ethically conscious I would generally be looking at companies that actually walk their advertising talk by looking at companies that make down gear that tend to have better environmental track records overall like Patagonia.

Lots to digest for sure but if the issue concerns you as much as you say do your research.

[Dogwood]

First, welcome to WB Cats.don't.hike. Nice to have you here.

Where did you read most down comes from live-plucked or foie gras? It's my understanding that most down is a by-product of the food industry.

Octothorpesarus is asking a good question. Cat.dont.camp, can you back up this statement you made? "Most down comes from birds that have been live-plucked or force-fed for foie gras."

While, for sure, even according to down sources, that DOES occur to some extent to say Most down comes to market that way is .......???

[Dogwood]

From now on typing only Octo. That's way too many syllables for me to type that whole animal of a user name.

[cats.don't.camp]

Thanks, everyone. That gives me great places to start. I, also, take back that "most" comes from live-plucked and foie gras. The impression was given through an incomplete quote. It stated that "50% of the down and 40%-45% of the feathers are live-plucked" and ends there. After clicking on the link, the source article states those numbers are for one country, Hungary, alone... and it's from 1993. My apologies. I'd change it but I don't think I can edit the original post? The real point is that no matter how often it occurs, I personally, would like to avoid it. Being a by-product of the food industry doesn't make me feel any better either, by the way. HYOH ... BYOSB (Buy Your Own Sleeping Bag)!

Thanks, again, for the help and sorry about the misunderstanding. After all, that's why I got on WB: to learn. I think I'll write them all anyway just for fun and see how many reply. I'll let everyone know what I find out.

[Dogwood]

Hopefully, you get some legit info from those you contact because on the other side of your issue is much marketing to protect the images of companies that DO NOT want to be associated with questionable animal cruelty practices. Dig deeply and ponder considerably!

[Dogwood]

Make sure you have your shart kickers on going into that world.

[Gervais]

"Ethical" is certainly subject to interpretation. My level of ethics dictates that I not club baby seals while wearing my Costco down jacket. I eat lamb etc, who am I to eschew feathers, whatever the method of harvest?

Not trolling, but not willing to be labeled as unethical based on other's subjective values either.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I read an article from Patagonia in 2011 regarding their down harvesting. They were looking into the ethics issue. But ultimately the only way to procure down is to pluck either a live just before molting goose or a dead animal, or gather it when the animals molt, which was noted as being very difficult to accomplish. The consensus its that down procured from geese raised for food was considered more humane. I would doubt PETA would find any method "ethical" based on their past positions of even keeping pets footer no purpose.

[cats.don't.camp]

"Ethical" is certainly subject to interpretation. My level of ethics dictates that I not club baby seals while wearing my Costco down jacket. I eat lamb etc, who am I to eschew feathers, whatever the method of harvest?

Not trolling, but not willing to be labeled as unethical based on other's subjective values either.

That's cool. It's a matter of personal opinion. You're right. It is subjective. It doesn't bother you. It bothers me enough to want to know where it comes from. I'm sure it bothers others so much that they'll just go synthetic. That's exactly why I went ahead and posted this in the Straight Forward section. I'm not here to judge OR be judged. If there's a list of options, then people can choose while having that extra information ... wherever their sliding scale of "ethical" happens to be. Just wanna know who sells what, that's all.

[gpburdelljr]

My grandmother was born in 1903 on a farm. When the geese started molting they would pluck the down. It didn't hurt the geese. Kind of like shearing sheep.

[Hill Ape]

it is simply more likely to be a by-product of the food industry, because that is where most of the geese are. the industries became symbiotic long ago. much like chickens (the biggest industry in my area) the by products from the tyson processing plant go straight to the purina feed plant. which, strategically is not that far a drive. and, outdoor manufacturers are really a small % of the market for down. if you just have to stay sure, i'd lean towards better known manufacturers, they worked this issue out long ago. NF, pata, etc exceed industry standards. other, bargain labels, maybe not so much, but probably still not stripped from live birds. its just not the way its done

back to duck dynasty!

[theinfamousj]

Just to add another layer to all of this, I just checked the tag on a who-knows-where-it-came-from down jacket, and it says it is filled with a mix of goose AND duck down.

So we have more than one food-bird industry contributing to the source of at least one jacket's worth of down.

Sent from my SGH-I777 using Tapatalk

[rock steady]

to assert something as truthful:"most down comes from birds that have been live plucked" when your question has 'ethical' in the title is a little confusing...that's a very strong statement against an industry and the people connected with it. For myself I will try to research my posts before I post them.

[cabbagehead]

You might be able to find ethical eiderdown. For other down, I haven't found ethical sources. I found certified ethical sources, but the certificates seem bogus. There wasn't enough transparency for me to believe them. There was no ethical footage of their process. For eider down, there was. If there's a way to gently live pluck, you could keep some geese, and harvest your own down.Patagonia doesn't sound believable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQlU1_Mam4M