Winter worries

[Sierra2015]

Sleep system questions. Specifically my potential sleeping bag and liner(s). Background first, question at the bottom.


I am child of Southern California. I've only experienced 4 seasons of winter. Three in the backwoods of Arkansas at 14, 15, and 16. (The only practical knowledge I gained is that ice sucks to walk on and stalls are easier to muck. Then a year in Seattle where I discovered ice sucks to drive on.)


I'm scared of winter on the AT.


I'm planing to start March 1st, 2015. Only reason I would start later would be if I were to cut down my thru-hike into two section-hikes.


This is the bag I've taken a liking to: http://www.hikelight.com/montbell-3-...ugger-bag.html


I originally thought a 30° bag would be plenty low enough. I mean... that's below freezing! But the more research I do the less confident I become.

I plan to sew myself a silk liner. That gives me an extra 10°. (Right?) Will 20° be warm enough?

I'm also contemplating several other options to add additional warmth.

1) Crocheting or knitting a merino wool blanket that's sleeping bag shaped. Using it like a quilt inside the bag. I'm not sure how much that'll weigh or how bulky that would be. Probably not the best at either.

2) Sewing a second liner using fleece. I haven't worn fleece since I was a kid. In my memory it's light weight. Would that add an additional 10°? Taking it down to 10° all together?

3) A synthetic quilt over my sleeping bag. Preferably sewn by moi. (Though I'm less confident of my skill at this.)

4) Buying a second bag.

My favorite option is #2. Least favorite is #4.

This is is the pad I plan on buying: http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-...z-lite/product

Any advice is welcomed.

[Tipi Walter]

With the gear you mention you are skirting right at the edge of comfort and joy. A Navy SEAL or an Army Ranger might have fun with your pad and bag, but I sure would not. The Montbell "light and fast" is a 30F bag for March 1st? Re-compute to 45F for actual in-field utility and it just won't work. Go heavier and warmer. Think 0F minimum or go overkill. Be comfortable carrying a 3 lb bag and not a 1 lb 6 oz bag.

The Solar Ridgerest is only 2.6 Rvalue which is too low for March 1st. Minimum for me is 5R in cold conditions, and this can be achieved in various ways. Plus, be wary of a company (like Montbell) which sells a down bag but does not list the amount of down in ounces in each bag. This is the most important number. For instance, it's standard to have 35ozs of goose down in 0F and subzero bags. I doubt the Montbell even comes close.

Ideally, you should get what you want now and sleep out tonight and every night in the backyard or on a porch or on a deck and take the pad and bag back if they do not work.

[bfayer]

I have that same bag, and I would not use it in march on the AT. Since women generally sleep colder than men, I would suspect you will need something warmer. If I was a women that was not acclimated to the cold, I would take a 15 degree bag and plan on layering with my outerwear when it's really cold. Having said that, a top quilt with sufficient loft should get you by. Take a look at the loft of an EN rated 15 degree bag (use the women's comfort rating), then subtract the loft of the Montbell bag, that is how much loft you should need for your top quilt.

Silk and other thin liners do not add that much to the warmth of the bag, they add a little, but no where near 10 degrees. Insulation is additive, there is no synergistic effect. If it does not add 10 degrees without the bag, it won't with the bag. For example if you can sleep without any covers at 70 degrees, could you sleep with just a silk liner at 60 degrees? Most people would say no. The same is true when you put a liner inside your sleeping bag, it adds no more or less than it does without the bag.

Generally when it's cold you get more bang for your buck with an extra set of base layers to sleep in. They weigh about the same as a bag liner and you can wear them outside of the bag also. When you get to Virginia and the heat is killer, a silk liner is a great thing to have, just to have something to cover up with when it's 80 or 90 degrees at night in the shelter.

Edit: I just saw TW response and agree with him on the PAD. The pad is half your warmth, R5 is a good place to start for cold weather camping.

[Damn Yankee]

Here is a pad that has won many awards. There is one for sale on the BPL forum.

Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm - Regular"

[CarlZ993]

Winter isn't something to be scared of. It's just cold. If you're prepared for it, it's still cold.

30 deg bag w/ a 2.6R value sleeping pad won't cut in on March 1st. I started 3/21/13 w/ a 15 deg bag & a 3.1R value pad. A couple of nights, I had to wear every stitch of clothing to stay warm enough to sleep (I typically sleep warm). I shared Tray Mountain Shelter w/ 3 other guys who each had 30 deg bag on a night that hit the mid teens (maybe it got that warm). They shivered all night long and got maybe 10-15 min of sleep each hour that night.

If you could afford it, I'd suggest a quality 0 deg bag (down) & the Thermarest X-therm sleeping pad (5.7 R value). You could keep the Xtherm for the entire hike & switch out to the 30 deg bag when it warmed up.

I don't understand why you don't want to start later. Is there an obligation in the fall that you have to be back for? A later start would accommodate your existing gear. Save you some money on gear purchases.

[max patch]

A 30 degree bag isn't gonna cut it and a silk liner does not add 10 degrees.

[Gus9890]

A great addition to a sleeping bag, blanket liner, etc. is an Army poncho/shelter half. They keep in the warmth really well until you get up to take a leak, but it doesn't take long to get warmed back up.

[Sierra2015]

God... :/

Okay. I'm just depressed at how expensive bags are. With the addition of sales tax it's looking like I'd have to drop a grand on just my sleeping bags, liner, and pad.

A lot of you seemed surprised at the 10° silk liner thing. I've read that a couple places.... Guess they're wrong?

How about buying something like this: http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/sho...8_10000001_-1_

Then using it outside of a 30° down bag? Then shipping out the Deuter when it's a littler warmer, then exchanging the two bags when it's hot, and so on.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy a heavy duty 0° bag is I'm worried about the usefulness after the trail. I don't foresee myself going winter camping a lot and I'd hate to spend $500 and then have it sit in the closet for the rest of my life.

[BrianLe]

Agree with the majority. I started in late Feb in 2010 with a 20F rated bag, and a "good" quality bag of that rating (Western Mountaineering). Wearing all my puffy clothing inside it was enough, but only just as temps got down a few nights into the teens.

The padding under you is important too or you'll be cold. The r-value of the pad you mention is 2.6 (look under the little "specs" tab). You almost certainly need more than that for a March 1st start. I personally combine an inflatable with a ccf pad (the one you list is just a slightly sexed-up ccf pad), with the pad on top of the inflatable when it's cold.

If your plan is to wear clothing inside the bag as part of the overall "warm enough" plan, make sure the bag isn't a tight fit --- the clothing has to be able to 'loft'.

I'd drop the more exotic plans about overquilts or various liners, and I would frankly count on not getting any significant warmth boost from a liner. The liner can feel like it adds 10 degrees when it's warm outside; less so when it's cold. Put another way, you'll get a much more reliable boost to warmth relative to weight and bulk carried by getting a bag that has more down in it.

The 30 degree bag isn't wasted, however; have it mailed to Pearisburg and swap at that point.

What bag you get for the start --- depends on the quality of the bag. If a less known-for-quality bag I might go for a 10F or even 0F bag, but blah --- by far the best is a 10F or at most 20F rated bag of decent quality. WM, Feathered Friends, but sadly these are also the most expensive. Sorry, I can't think of a good way to suggest cheaping out here, other than indeed being aggressive in layering truly warm clothing inside the bag, but there's a limit on what you can get out of that too. The moosejaw link you last posted is to a 27F synthetic bag --- I've not the least idea how it would layer outside of a 30F down bag, but similar to wearing clothing inside, it's only effective if it's fairly huge and can thus allow the inner down bag to loft.

The final suggestion I can think of is to test out what you're going with, but ... oh crap, I just reviewed and you're talking about 2015. So you have plenty of time to work (and robustly test) this out ... Never mind!

[Slo-go'en]

I would buy the 30* bag and the silk liner and start April 1st. You will save a ton of money that way and at least have a chance of making it out of the state of North Carloina.

Starting March 1st doesn't do much except add another layer of difficulty right at the start to something which is already difficult. The expense of extra gear and more days in town due to bad weather rachet up the cost right at the start significantly. It sounds like you will also be hiking with a dog, which adds yet another layer of complications. It will be easier on both you and the dog if you start in April. The amount of forward progress you loose by starting a month later is easily made up due to better weather and longer days.

BTW, I used a 30* Montbell bag (synthetic) and silk liner for an April 1st start and was fine. One morning I was suprised to wake up and find ice on my tent. I thought it had gotten a little chilly that night...

[Venchka]

1. Do your homework. Search this Forum (WhiteBlaze) and the Trial Journal Forum ( http://www.trailjournals.com/journal...lachian_trail/ ) for reports from 2013. Particularly the LAST week of March and the FIRST week of April, 2013. Will 2015 be the same? Nobody knows. But it COULD be the same. It COULD be better. It COULD be worse. Be prepared.
2. You will need 2 bags. One WARM cold weather bag early and late. One SUMMER weather bag in the middle. Swap them with a mail drop when the time is right.
3. Liners will help keep the interior of your bag clean. Adding 10°F to the bag's comfort zone? Maybe. I doubt it. Be prepared to wear ALL of your clothes inside your cold weather bag. Said another way: Don't carry more clothes than you can wear inside your sleeping bag if needed for a good night's sleep.
4. You don't need to spend $500 for a premium quality bag brand new. I have seen numerous 0°F to 10°F high quality bags for sale at this forum in the = or - #300 range. I have seen closeout deals on Western Mountaineering bags online at places like Backcountry Gear, Moosejaw, etc. If a maker doesn't list the down fill power (800 and up is best), weight of down & total weight of the back, stop looking at that bag. Move on. Same goes for temperature ratings. If owner's say that a particular brand of bag is accurately rated, you can trust that brand. If NOBODY is saying anything about a certain brand, move on.
5. There are a few constants in the backpacking industry. Companies that have been around since forever. Companies that have a good reputation and repeat customers. In sleeping bags a few of those companies that I know about are: Western Mountaineering, Feathered Friends, Marmot, The North Face, probably a few more that others will vouch for.
6. A conservative rated 10°F down bag should have 20 ounces of the best down on the planet. A well designed hood & foot box. A quality shell with flawless stitching. Roomy enough for you to sleep comfortably without wasted space. Weigh 2 pounds, + or - a few ounces. The Western Mountaineering Vistalite (10°F) and the Antelope MF (5°F) fall into this category. I own the Antelope. It was comfortable for me on the lower slopes of Mt. Rainier the first week of March few years ago.
7. A Therma-A-Rest Ridgerest and Prolite Plus used together will provide an R-value of 6.6. This is a very versatile solution. You always have a bullet proof backup in the Ridgerest. You can use just one of the pads when the weather warms up. Places like Campmor discount them. REI offers at least (2) 20% coupons per year to help save some money. Win. Win. Win.
8. Yes, a quality down bag will last you most of your lifetime. Find reasons to use it after your thru-hike. Or sell it for 50%-75% of your purchase price. You didn't think of that? You're welcome.
9. Properly prepared, you will breeze through GA-TN-NC-VA before summer arrives. Unprepared, you might not make it out of GA.
Have fun!

Wayne

[Tipi Walter]

God... :/

Okay. I'm just depressed at how expensive bags are. With the addition of sales tax it's looking like I'd have to drop a grand on just my sleeping bags, liner, and pad.

A lot of you seemed surprised at the 10° silk liner thing. I've read that a couple places.... Guess they're wrong?

How about buying something like this: http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/sho...8_10000001_-1_

Then using it outside of a 30° down bag? Then shipping out the Deuter when it's a littler warmer, then exchanging the two bags when it's hot, and so on.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy a heavy duty 0° bag is I'm worried about the usefulness after the trail. I don't foresee myself going winter camping a lot and I'd hate to spend $500 and then have it sit in the closet for the rest of my life.

Don't despair. A person can stay warm in the winter and still live in "poverty". The solution is weight and bulk. Get your Montbell bag and then find an old Army feather bag and throw that on top like a blanket. Weight and bulk. Or get the Montbell and find a used bag to double up. There are easy ways to stay warm in the winter and not spend a thousand dollars.

[Affirmative]

Hey guys, I'm testing something that may be ridiculous and stupid. However I'm starting in April and I'm not too concerned because I'm willing to spend a few cold nights up & about to keep warm if I have to.

When the temperature drops - my plan A will be using a hypothermia package. I have a 3 season single person tent, 45 degree down bag, a thermal liner, a thermarest z lite, a space blanket, tarp, and a SOL emergency escape bivvy. Along with all my clothes.

The space blanket goes first inside the tent. I let it wrap up the sides/pocket the feet area. Then goes the tarp. Next is putting my sleep pad inside the emergency bivvy (which btw is not bad for protecting you from wind/weather, but I already have the tarp, space blanket, tent anyway). Finally comes burrowing my way into all of that with my sleeping bag + liner inside while wearing all my clothes. Package yourself up from the inside with the tarp, cinch down the bivvy, and zip up the bag.

It's obviously not for everybody, it's a lot of work, its claustrophobic, and not an ideal thing to do. The ideal thing is investing in a good sleeping bag. Because on top of all that work, you have to make sure it's done right and you have to sleep light anyway to make sure you don't sweat. Otherwise you could be in a lot of trouble.

So far I've never had to resort to plan B which involves incorporating garbage bags and VBLs. I hope I don't have to. Plan C is just put on all your clothes and keep moving which actually has always been more appealing than plan B. If I get stuck in a storm - I'm just stupid and deserve it. I'm ready to pull a Bear Grylls and hide in a hotel when I see bad weather coming.

[bfayer]

Hey guys, I'm testing something that may be ridiculous and stupid. However I'm starting in April and I'm not too concerned because I'm willing to spend a few cold nights up & about to keep warm if I have to.

When the temperature drops - my plan A will be using a hypothermia package. I have a 3 season single person tent, 45 degree down bag, a thermal liner, a thermarest z lite, a space blanket, tarp, and a SOL emergency escape bivvy. Along with all my clothes.

The space blanket goes first inside the tent. I let it wrap up the sides/pocket the feet area. Then goes the tarp. Next is putting my sleep pad inside the emergency bivvy (which btw is not bad for protecting you from wind/weather, but I already have the tarp, space blanket, tent anyway). Finally comes burrowing my way into all of that with my sleeping bag + liner inside while wearing all my clothes. Package yourself up from the inside with the tarp, cinch down the bivvy, and zip up the bag.

It's obviously not for everybody, it's a lot of work, its claustrophobic, and not an ideal thing to do. The ideal thing is investing in a good sleeping bag. Because on top of all that work, you have to make sure it's done right and you have to sleep light anyway to make sure you don't sweat. Otherwise you could be in a lot of trouble.

So far I've never had to resort to plan B which involves incorporating garbage bags and VBLs. I hope I don't have to. Plan C is just put on all your clothes and keep moving which actually has always been more appealing than plan B. If I get stuck in a storm - I'm just stupid and deserve it. I'm ready to pull a Bear Grylls and hide in a hotel when I see bad weather coming.

Have you tied this for more than a night or two in below freezing weather?

You are creating a moisture trap that will saturate your sleeping bag. After a few days your bag will most likely next to useless. Your plan is not bad for emergency situations where you have no other choice, but for a long hike you might want to rethink it a little.

[slbirdnerd]

Sounds like you need a Thermolite Reactor Extreme bag liner. I have a 20 degree down bag and froze my butt off on a January overnight. I started looking at new bags but my local outfitter suggested the liner (this was a pleasant surprise when they could have sold me a $400 sleeping bag...). Unlike some liners, this one is made to add warmth (25 degrees). Something to look at--then you can send it home when you are done with it and be fine with your bag until fall. Or, send the bag home and sleep in the liner.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Sounds like you need a Thermolite Reactor Extreme bag liner. I have a 20 degree down bag and froze my butt off on a January overnight. I started looking at new bags but my local outfitter suggested the liner (this was a pleasant surprise when they could have sold me a $400 sleeping bag...). Unlike some liners, this one is made to add warmth (25 degrees). Something to look at--then you can send it home when you are done with it and be fine with your bag until fall. Or, send the bag home and sleep in the liner.

Didn't get very good reviews here - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=32928

[slbirdnerd]

Didn't get very good reviews here - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=32928

I get that. The tangled mess is a concern of mine with any liner, but I'd be willing to try this one before shelling out for a new bag. Normally I wouldn't believe an employee, but I've seen the guy's gear during a presentation somewhere else and he actually does use it.

[bfayer]

Didn't get very good reviews here - http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=32928

Sad but true.

To put it in perspective I have an Eddie Bauer down liner bag I got back in 77 or 78, it is rated as a 50F stand alone bag, or +20 degree as a liner. It has about 2.5 inches of loft, and does add +20 to your sleeping bag, but not much more.

[George]

Sad but true.

To put it in perspective I have an Eddie Bauer down liner bag I got back in 77 or 78, it is rated as a 50F stand alone bag, or +20 degree as a liner. It has about 2.5 inches of loft, and does add +20 to your sleeping bag, but not much more.

it will only add temp if it has room to loft - if crushed inside the outer bag it will add squat - listen to Tipi, he is the one who does this for months, drape another bag / quilt over the top

[Kc Fiedler]

Sleep system questions. Specifically my potential sleeping bag and liner(s). Background first, question at the bottom.


I am child of Southern California. I've only experienced 4 seasons of winter. Three in the backwoods of Arkansas at 14, 15, and 16. (The only practical knowledge I gained is that ice sucks to walk on and stalls are easier to muck. Then a year in Seattle where I discovered ice sucks to drive on.)


I'm scared of winter on the AT.


I'm planing to start March 1st, 2015. Only reason I would start later would be if I were to cut down my thru-hike into two section-hikes.


This is the bag I've taken a liking to: http://www.hikelight.com/montbell-3-...ugger-bag.html


I originally thought a 30° bag would be plenty low enough. I mean... that's below freezing! But the more research I do the less confident I become.

I plan to sew myself a silk liner. That gives me an extra 10°. (Right?) Will 20° be warm enough?

I'm also contemplating several other options to add additional warmth.

1) Crocheting or knitting a merino wool blanket that's sleeping bag shaped. Using it like a quilt inside the bag. I'm not sure how much that'll weigh or how bulky that would be. Probably not the best at either.

2) Sewing a second liner using fleece. I haven't worn fleece since I was a kid. In my memory it's light weight. Would that add an additional 10°? Taking it down to 10° all together?

3) A synthetic quilt over my sleeping bag. Preferably sewn by moi. (Though I'm less confident of my skill at this.)

4) Buying a second bag.

My favorite option is #2. Least favorite is #4.

This is is the pad I plan on buying: http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-...z-lite/product

Any advice is welcomed.

The Z-lite will probably leave you feeling cold at the beginning of March. A silk liner will definitely not add 10 degrees, maybe 2-3 degrees. A thick fleece liner might add 10 degrees. I think if your bag/liner together are good down to 20 and you're not a cold sleeper you'll be fine. I'd consider the neoair Xtherm for pad.