"Hammocks are LIGHTER"??

[trippclark]

So what's the lightest "useable by all" hammock arrangement come in at?

Here are a couple of very light hammock arrangements. I am not considering the "racer" models. I think that was what you meant by "useable by all."

Option 1:
Hennessy Backpacker UL ASYM w/o HH tarp = 23.5 oz
MacCat Micro tarp = 7.4 oz
JRB Nest = 20.0 oz
Speer top blanket = 16.0 oz
Total weight = 66.9 oz or 4 lbs, 2.9 oz.

Option 2 (even lighter):
Speer 8.0A hammock (without Speer tarp) = 19.0 oz*
MacCat Micro tarp = 7.4 oz
JRB "No Snivler" (as bottom insulation) = 20.0 oz
Speer top blanket = 16.0 oz
Total weight = 62.4 oz or 3 lbs, 14.4 oz.*
* in colder weather this would be a bit lighter still because you would not carry the bug netting.

These are the lightest options that I come up with. Note, however, that for me, it is worth a few extra ounces on either option for a larger tarp than the micro. Also, for me I would use the Peapod for my insulation with the Speer, even though it is 9 oz more than the "No Snivler." However, for this excercise, weight was the primary consideration.

[Rainman]

Last summer for my hike on the LT I bought a HH Backpacker ASYM at Trail Days. When I field tested it on an overnight, I got about 30 mosquito bites right through the nylon on my back, butt, and legs. When I contacted HH, their suggestions was to put a sleeping pad underneath me inside the hammock. So, if I'm carrying my Thermarest prolite anyway, I figured that blew any weight savings I might get.

I then bought an MSR Hubba and then slept in a shelter every night I was on the trail. Go figure.

When I got home I immediately bought a Tarptent Cloudburst. I cut my shelter weight in half from the Hubba and doubled my floor space.

If the shelter I'm carrying is just back up anyway, I decided to go with a tarptent and larger flor size. The Tarptent, with stakes and lines, is still light than the HH.

[trippclark]

Last summer for my hike on the LT I bought a HH Backpacker ASYM at Trail Days. When I field tested it on an overnight, I got about 30 mosquito bites right through the nylon on my back, butt, and legs. When I contacted HH, their suggestions was to put a sleeping pad underneath me inside the hammock.

Permethrin spray (available several places including the camping section at Walmart), applied directly to the hammock, provides at least 2 weeks of mosquito protection.

http://www.permethrin-repellent.com/home.htm

[tlbj6142]

Boy I am really sorry you are misinterpiting everything I write.

I don't think I am. You are not typing what you want to say. Unfortunately, this medium doesn't allow for body language queues, facial expressions, etc. to help get a point across. Sorry, if I came across as an a$$hole, as that was not my point. I just didn't understand yours until now.

My point was I would not buy a $200 hammock from a company that tells me it is not intended for Hiking. This is not my opinion, this is the manufacturers warning.

Now this makes perfect sense. But, then, HH does make hammocks for backpacking, they just are not the models typically listed on the XUL gear lists. Which, again, is your point.

Or, IOW, when SUL/XUL hammock campers compare gearlists with tarp/tent users they are not camparing "apples to apples". As the hammocks typically listed on such lists (namely the lighter two HH models) are not "backpacking" gear. Whereas, most tarps/tents listed are "backpacking" gear.

That said it is possible to build a SUL hammock gear lists without using one of Hennessy's non-backpacking models. It is just "easier" if you "cheat" and use one of the non-approved models.

[Alligator]

...
I made the switch to a Hennessy Hammock based on comfort and site selection, not weight, but I ended up with a system that was almost a pound lighter. So, to an average guy like me, I got a nice weight savings, even though a true XUL would almost definitely add weight.

...

I'm very interested to know where your actually weight savings was. Did you end up using a smaller tarp/rainfly? Was it because the synthetic bag was replaced? Was your insulation changed out?

[flyfisher]

I like Youngblood's idea...
So what's the lightest you can come in with a Hammock and "bottom insulation?"

So what's the lightest "useable by all" hammock arrangement come in at?
- BW

My WarmHammock with integral 2 in of bottom insulation and bug net and polypro rope suspension comes in at 23.4 oz. No additional pad is necessary.

I add an 11 oz silnylon tarp and a 24.5 oz quilt for the complete sleeping system. For temperatures below 30, I replace the bugnet with a "TravelPod" for warmth and am good to about 0 with no additional increase in weight. With an additional pad in the hammock, I have taken this combination down to -15 F.

WarmHammock:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/warmhammock.htm
TravelPod:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/travelpod.htm

[Rainman]

Permethrin spray (available several places including the camping section at Walmart), applied directly to the hammock, provides at least 2 weeks of mosquito protection.

http://www.permethrin-repellent.com/home.htm

Thank you. I kept the hammock because it is great for hot Florida weather. I'll try the permethrin.

[Alligator]

My WarmHammock with integral 2 in of bottom insulation and bug net and polypro rope suspension comes in at 23.4 oz. No additional pad is necessary.

I add an 11 oz silnylon tarp and a 24.5 oz quilt for the complete sleeping system. For temperatures below 30, I replace the bugnet with a "TravelPod" for warmth and am good to about 0 with no additional increase in weight. With an additional pad in the hammock, I have taken this combination down to -15 F.

WarmHammock:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/warmhammock.htm
TravelPod:
http://www.imrisk.com/hammock/travelpod.htm

Have you taken this setup out under a full range of potential conditions at both 0 and -15F? Such as, windy conditions(20-40 mph), freezing rain, heavy snowfall (6"+)? I don't think I would want to sit out a whiteout in that setup, nor would I in a tarp for that matter either.

[The Solemates]

I have no problem carrying an extra few ounces by carrying a tent for comfort in cold temperatures. My set up:

Mtn Hdwr Waypoint II (when split between my wife and I): 1lbs 15oz each
Mtnsmith Wisp 30 deg down bag: 1lb 5oz (keeps me warm to 20-25F with clothing worn)
Modified Full Zrest: 13oz

TOTAL: 4lbs 1oz

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter.

[flyfisher]

Have you taken this setup out under a full range of potential conditions at both 0 and -15F? Such as, windy conditions(20-40 mph), freezing rain, heavy snowfall (6"+)? I don't think I would want to sit out a whiteout in that setup, nor would I in a tarp for that matter either.

No.

I spent the one -15 night we had in the last two years outside in the set-up. It was calm. I spent 8 hours sleeping reasonably well. I was amazed and surprised that it could be done.

I have been down in the single didgets a number of times, including several nights with 15 mph wind. The one night I tried staying outdoors in a 25 mph wind was before I had the present set-up. I was using a Garlington Insulator and it blew out to the side of the hammock like a spinaker. That was cold!

I have explored the very cold nights to become comfortable with the notion of more common Ohio and AT weather - down into the teens - which is now a practical temperature for me to be camping in regularly in a hammock.

I think that real mountain weather is best done with real four season camping gear. You will not find me at high elevation on Mt Washington in the winter in a hammock. That is not the point. :-)

The real point was to answer a question by a friend who wanted to make sure that before we went in September to the Boundary Waters that I was not going to need to bail because I could not sleep. From there, it became a quest to see what temperatures were really the limit.

[trippclark]

I have no problem carrying an extra few ounces by carrying a tent for comfort in cold temperatures. My set up:

Mtn Hdwr Waypoint II (when split between my wife and I): 1lbs 15oz each
Mtnsmith Wisp 30 deg down bag: 1lb 5oz (keeps me warm to 20-25F with clothing worn)
Modified Full Zrest: 13oz

TOTAL: 4lbs 1oz

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter.

Option 2 in Post #21 meets this challenge, I think. Of course, this is given the same conditions you list, with clothing worn.

[Patrick]

I'm very interested to know where your actually weight savings was. Did you end up using a smaller tarp/rainfly? Was it because the synthetic bag was replaced? Was your insulation changed out?

Old:

Tarp (including eight stakes, stuff sack, and cord) - 26 oz
Drawstring bug shelter (including stuff sack and cord) - 5 oz
Long Cat's Meow Bag (including stuff sack) - 50 oz
8 section Z-Rest - 9 oz
2 mil plastic ground cloth - 10 oz
Total - 100 oz (6.3 lbs)

New:

Hennessy ULB (including stuff sacks, extra cord, and two stakes) - 33 oz
Synthetic quilt (including stuff sack) - 28 oz
Sythetic underquilt (including stuff sack) - 24 oz
Total - 85 oz (5.3 lbs)

This is what I mean. My old set-up could have dropped some weight, but it seems pretty normal. I actually gained a bit of weight for "soft" insulation, but ended up saving because of ditching the pad.

I know a lot of people have really light down bags, but I don't do down and there are folks using down stuff in their hammocks, so I think this is still a pretty apples-to-apples comparison.

Looking at it again now, I probably could have dropped a pound off my original list without too much trouble and still been very comfortable.

[Youngblood]

I'm not sure I would agree with you on this last statement Youngblood. Maybe a little discussion. The tarp is the rain fly yes? So whatever serves a person swinging under their shelter should serve a person on the ground no? IMO, tarp size should be equal for both cases.

As far as insulation, Doug has indicated that the hammocker needs more than the ground sleeper. Does anyone dispute this?

As for sleeping, IMO, equivalent quilts could be used in both cases.

For a tarp then, what is left? I say stakes, lines, and bug netting. 50' ft of triptease weighs one ounce, 6 titanium stakes at what, 0.22 oz? Plus bug netting. My rectangular cot netting weighs 7 oz. Plus a ground cloth, I cut mine at about 3X8 out of 3mil plastic, but I haven't weighed this. One could forego the ground cloth with a closed cell pad. Are there netted hammocks lighter than all this?

The hammock is likely more comfortable and allows for additional camping in wooded areas. [This is called a concession by the way.] But I don't see it as being lighter than a tarp set up.

Alligator,

Of course you're right about the tarp weight. (I did the same thing I got on to others about.) I was thinking of the very small HH tarps and forgot that some folks tarp with 5'x8' tarps which are about the same weight and sometimes use them as rain ponchos as well.

Youngblood

[Whistler]

I think you need to normalize this discussion a bit, using two important criteria. One, weight. Two, money. Tarpers and Hammockers, two important questions:

-How light can you go and still be comfortable for 2.5-season AT temps, say 35-40 degrees at the coldest part of the morning [and what will it cost me]?
-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?

This is a good topic. Let's see some data.
-Mark

[tlbj6142]

Show me a hammock set-up that keeps you warm to 20-30F and is less weight than this. Could be a challenge. Hammocks arent really that much lighter.

I think Risk did easily in post #26. Beat you by several ounces.

[Footslogger]

[QUOTE=Whistler]-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?
===============================================
I have a HH hammock but don't use it in cold weather. Here's what I use in terms of the tarp type shelter. Not as light as I'd like it but it works for me:

Six Moon Design Lunar Solo-e 23 oz (that includes floor and bug mesh)

Soft Tyvek < 4oz

Thermarest Ultralight 3/4 10 oz

20 degree down bag 2lbs 2oz

TOTAL WEIGHT: Approx 4.5 lbs

TOTAL COST: Approx $400

[Alligator]

Flyfisher,

I think you are a great innovator when it comes to hammocks. Lots of people refer to your work. I ask about field testing because when you get down to 0 or even -15F, other conditions become important also, like eating and drinking. At these temps, it is not unreasonable to need to melt snow or ice to get water. Plus cooking is a chore. Having to do this in a hammock may not be fun and could compromise one's safety IMO. Having to get in and out of the hammock to cook would create many heat losses while cooking. Just something to think about.

Also, have you thought of maybe using a vent instead of leaving the zipper open? My megalight (megamid) has a curved vent hole. It's like a flap with I think bent plastic to keep it rounded out.

[Alligator]

Old:

Tarp (including eight stakes, stuff sack, and cord) - 26 oz
Drawstring bug shelter (including stuff sack and cord) - 5 oz
Long Cat's Meow Bag (including stuff sack) - 50 oz
8 section Z-Rest - 9 oz
2 mil plastic ground cloth - 10 oz
Total - 100 oz (6.3 lbs)

New:

Hennessy ULB (including stuff sacks, extra cord, and two stakes) - 33 oz
Synthetic quilt (including stuff sack) - 28 oz
Sythetic underquilt (including stuff sack) - 24 oz
Total - 85 oz (5.3 lbs)

This is what I mean. My old set-up could have dropped some weight, but it seems pretty normal. I actually gained a bit of weight for "soft" insulation, but ended up saving because of ditching the pad.

I know a lot of people have really light down bags, but I don't do down and there are folks using down stuff in their hammocks, so I think this is still a pretty apples-to-apples comparison.

Looking at it again now, I probably could have dropped a pound off my original list without too much trouble and still been very comfortable.

I would say fairly typical. I don't do down either. Most these days would have a silnylon tarp though. There's a good 10 oz at least. Mine weighs ~13oz +1 oz line and stakes. It's about 17 oz. I'd say you did lose about .5 lbs in your switch. Not sure about the groundcloth, how big was it? That seems heavy. I'm going to weigh mine when I get home.

I'm just playing devil's advocate anyway. There's no way I can sleep on a RR. I use a Prolite 4 Reg and a thermarest chair for comfort. I like being able to plop down throughout camp.

[Beachwalker]

Okay, people are adding underquilts and sleeping bags, so here I go:

Tarptent Virga 1, with floor: 26
Thermarest Prolite 3: 20
WM Ultralite (20 degrees): 26

Total: 72, (4lbs., 8oz.) and I am good for 3 seasons.

Swap my 3/4 Z Lite for the Prolite, and we're at 61oz.,(3lbs,. 13oz.) and still good for 3 seasons. Swap the Ultralite for a Highlite (35 degrees), and we're down to 51oz., (3lbs, 3oz.) full package.

So, folks, we have to include comfort as a consideration, because otherwise I am not seeing the hammocks coming out on top (on bottom?) weight-wise. People obviously love them, so the weight/comfort ratio is apparently why. It works for them... fine with me.

-- BW

[Alligator]

I think you need to normalize this discussion a bit, using two important criteria. One, weight. Two, money. Tarpers and Hammockers, two important questions:

-How light can you go and still be comfortable for 2.5-season AT temps, say 35-40 degrees at the coldest part of the morning [and what will it cost me]?
-Also, how light can you make the tarp+ bug+ insulation+ bottomsheet combo on a $500 budget, give or take a few [and how cold can I go]?

This is a good topic. Let's see some data.
-Mark

Cost minimization first, without home sewing.
8X10 Silnylon tarp. Campmor $65.00 13 oz.
6 titanium stakes Prolite gear 6 @ 2.15=$12.90 1.34 oz
50' Kelty Triptease Campmor $15.00 1 oz.
Mosquito netting Froogle $13.00 7 oz.
groundcloth, painters cloth or tyvek $5-10 ?
Foam pad $10-30, 6-16 oz. or
Thermarest Prolite3 Reg $80 20 oz.

I'll list two inexpensive bags.
Kelty lightyear 45F Campmor $69.99 29oz (Doing 40 in this bag is very reasonable, I wouldn't go any lower without beefing it up with warm clothes)
Campmor 20F Down $109. 36oz

That's $146(max, assuming foam pad) before the bags. $255 to go 20F. Adjustable poles go nice with a tarp, but you can get by with sticks. You've got an extra $245 to spend above the $109 for the down bag. Use it to get a better bag if you like. You could spring the extra $50. for the T-rest, then throw $30 more for a T-rest chair. That wouldn't be ultralite, but I don't leave home without them .