7 days in the White Mts. Need help planning.

[Downhill Trucker]

I'm planning a 7 day trip in the Whites. Leaving on July 4 of this year. Being from Maryland, I'm not very familiar with the whites. I have been there twice for dayhiking.

My initial plan was to start at Franconia notch and hike north 75 miles to rt 2 past carter mountain. I'm now starting to think this may be a little too ambitious. My buddy and I average 15 miles a day in Shenandoah and central VA. I think we can do 10 or so in the whites but I'm thinking maybe we have a zero tucked away in case of weather.

We will be hammocking but we can go to ground. We are hoping to work for stay at a hut or two in the presidentials. I've also been looking at the RMC huts.

I'm looking for any itenerary suggestions. We considered starting further south and getting off at Pinkham notch.

Also looking for any campsite and side trail suggestions. We will also need a shuttle back to our car.

We also need a place to camp/stay near our southern start on July 4. Looking for somewhere cheap and will need to find a safe place to park for a week. Also looking for a decent hotel and place to eat in that area for when we get off the trail and back to our car.

Thanks for any help. I understand there's a lot of questions but I know some of you have a vast amount of experience in the whites and I wanna get some of that info to create a life list trip!

Many thanks!

[rafe]

Don't over-think it. I think you're spot-on with your miles-per-day reasoning. It's best not to be doing either of the high traverses (Franconia or Presidentials) in foul weather, so good to allow for a zero or two.

Shifting the hike southward works too. Moosilauke and the Kinsmans are wonderful hikes. The northbound ascent of South Kinsman, on the AT, is a kick in the butt.

The Whites are littered with side-trails, if the ATC maps don't show them, the AMC maps do. You can get the AMC maps directly from AMC or from REI, EMS, etc. In general, camping is much easier and less restrictive on the side trails. Guyot and the Perch are a couple of campsites/lean-tos a bit off the trail, but either free or far less $$ than the huts. Imp is (or at least was) a fabulous shelter, and free. Tent platforms at Liberty Springs and Garfield. Lean-tos at Ethan Pond, Rattle River. Nineteen Mile Brook Trail is well graded, and offers camping opportunities not far off the AT.

The hostel at Glencliff might be able to help as far as car-parking is concerned, I'd give them a call. Barring that, check with any motel in Lincoln NH or North Woodstock NH and ask them the same question (eg., if we stay at your place for a night or two, can we leave our car in the corner of your parking lot.) For that matter, long-term parking (a week or so) might be OK at Pinkham or at Highland Center, but I'd check with AMC to be sure.

AMC has a regular shuttle service connecting some of the major trailheads -- schedule and stops at the link below.

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/lodging-shuttle.cfm

[peakbagger]

The easiest way of getting around is plan on using the AMC shuttles and plan to end your hike at one of their shuttle points. You can camp in the woods at almost every trailhead if you walk in 1/4 of a mile in from the road if its on WMNF property. Plan on 12 to 14 miles a day. The two cant miss above treeline sections are from Haystack to North Lafayette and from Pierce to Madison. Get a copy of the AMC map for the whites http://amcstore.outdoors.org/books-m...44227348828432 buying the guidebook is real handy but its too heavy to hike with but has detailed trail descriptions.

If you are not stuck with hiking the AT there are shortcuts where you can skip sections of the AT if need be. You can cut a day off by taking a short cut from Zealand over A to Z trail to the Crawford Path across from the AMC Highland Center. This skips Mitzpah hut and Ethan Pond, unfortunately is also skips Webster Cliffs. You can break up the week of camping by staying in the Shapleigh lodge at the Highland Center. In the great Gulf you can also short cut a day by coming out the Great Gulf trail and catching the AMC shuttle at 19 mile brook or you can head back up and hike the Carters into Gorham. The "core whites hike" would be Franconia Notch to Pinkham. Add to either end as needed.

Plan on bug spray, the black flies may be slowing down by the mosquitoes will be plentiful. Make sure you have sunscreen and sunglasses, it can get hot an sunny on the ridgeline and the sun is out for close to 15 hours.

For an end of trip Gorham has several motels (no national chains) of varying price plus two very basis hostels. Almost all the towns in the whites are busy fourth of July week so plan accordingly. I would suggest leaving your car at the end of the hike and catching the AMC shuttle on the first day. If you end up short take the shortcuts. AMCs most southerly stop is the for the AT crossing of the Franconia Parkway so adding anything south of there requires a private shuttle. The Shuttle Connection in Lincoln NH will go where ever you want to but the price is steep.

[burger]

If you're in good shape, 7 days for that sections is reasonable. I did Franconia Notch to Gorham in 6 1/2 days on a section hike with this itinerary

Day 1: Franconia to Garfield Ridge campsites
2: Ethan Pond
3: Mizpah Hut (I also hitched up to the AMC Highland Center to pick up a package this day)
4: Madison Springs Hut
5: Wildcat Ski Area stealth camp
6: Imp Campsite
7: Gorham

Whatever you do, don't be afraid to change your itinerary if you are not feeling up to the challenge. The weather, the exposure (here and there), and all of the climbing can be dangerous if you push past your limits. But, for the eastern US at least, the scenery is unparalled. Have fun.

[Downhill Trucker]

Thanks for the info so far!

We are in pretty good shape I'm just not sure if we should count in a definite zero. What is the weather like in July?

[rafe]

Thanks for the info so far!

We are in pretty good shape I'm just not sure if we should count in a definite zero. What is the weather like in July?

Impossible to say. Ideally you'll have 70 degrees up on the high ridges by day, 45-50 degrees at night. But the Whites have some of the most miserable weather in the world. Snow is unlikely, but cold rain, fog, and high winds (50+ MPH) should be considered as possibilities.

[Slo-go'en]

There is no work for stay at the RMC camps. No pay, no stay, no way. Since your not a thru hiker, same goes with the AMC huts. Don't try to pass yourself off as a thru hiker, they can tell. All the AMC run designated campsites cost $8.00 a night. Budget for it. As already spoken about, camping at non-designated areas is very limited in this section and only available at lower elevations. Since your not familiar with the area, you need to plan on staying at designated sites. It's the best for you and the best for our woods.

The 14 miles between the Mizpah tent site and Osgood tent site is a difficult stretch, plan on about 1 mph average pace. Your best bet for not having to pay the $100 to stay at lakes of the Clouds hut and make that section easier is to drop down to the RMC Perch. That will only cost you $10.

Averaging more then about 1 mph through here is tough, especially as a section hiker. If you only average 15's in Shenandoah, I'd cut that in half for around here.

[rafe]

If you're in good shape, 7 days for that sections is reasonable. I did Franconia Notch to Gorham in 6 1/2 days on a section hike with this itinerary

Day 1: Franconia to Garfield Ridge campsites
2: Ethan Pond
3: Mizpah Hut (I also hitched up to the AMC Highland Center to pick up a package this day)
4: Madison Springs Hut
5: Wildcat Ski Area stealth camp
6: Imp Campsite
7: Gorham

Whatever you do, don't be afraid to change your itinerary if you are not feeling up to the challenge. The weather, the exposure (here and there), and all of the climbing can be dangerous if you push past your limits. But, for the eastern US at least, the scenery is unparalled. Have fun.

I really like this itinerary. I've never done the Whites in one continuous stretch -- that's something I need to address some day soon. I've been fretting over whether I could still do the Presi traverse in a day, but Mizpah to Madison seems doable. Good to know, thanks!

[burger]

There is no work for stay at the RMC camps. No pay, no stay, no way. Since your not a thru hiker, same goes with the AMC huts. Don't try to pass yourself off as a thru hiker, they can tell.

Is there a written rule that pay-for-stay is only for thru-hikers and not for section hikers? I worked for stay as a section hiker, and no one had a problem. I don't think anyone even asked me if I was thruing or not. This time of year there will be almost no thru-hikers, so it's not as if the OP would be taking spots from them.

More generally, the AMC has a monopoly on accomodations in the Whites and notorious record of treating thru-hikers like crap (turning them away in terrible weather, etc., etc.). Plus they're not hard up for money. OP--work for stay if you want to. It's a fun experience.

[Slo-go'en]

Is there a written rule that pay-for-stay is only for thru-hikers and not for section hikers? I worked for stay as a section hiker, and no one had a problem. I don't think anyone even asked me if I was thruing or not. This time of year there will be almost no thru-hikers, so it's not as if the OP would be taking spots from them.

Well then, you were lucky or had the look of a thru hiker and fooled them.

Work for stay is intended for thru hikers, but it is really up the discression of the crew. There are only 2 slots available per hut (4 at Lakes). There will be thru-hikers passing through there in July. Thier already showing up. The huts will turn you away if the two spots are already taken or if your too early or too late or they just don't like your looks. If you haven't paid and don't have reservations, they are under on obligation to let you stay.

[Downhill Trucker]

I don't mind paying 8 bucks to stay somewhere although I also don't mind work for stay. My concern is that if I want to stay at lake of the clouds in the dungeon will there be room for us.

I don't even mind paying 8 bucks to camp outside. I just don't want to get there and they turn me away for whatever reason (which it seems like they do) and be stuck having to backtrack down the mountain.

[burger]

Downhill Trucker--I was worried about Lake of the Clouds, too. If you plan your schedule to avoid it by staying at Mizpah Hut/Naumann tentsite, then you can go over Washington the next day. Once you get a few miles past Mt. Washington, there are multiple options on and off trail, even if Madison Spring Hut turns you away.

Work for stay is intended for thru hikers, but it is really up the discression of the crew. There are only 2 slots available per hut (4 at Lakes). There will be thru-hikers passing through there in July. Thier already showing up. The huts will turn you away if the two spots are already taken or if your too early or too late or they just don't like your looks. If you haven't paid and don't have reservations, they are under on obligation to let you stay.

We had at least 8 or 9 hikers doing work for stay at Madison Spring Hut the night I was there. That was my only night of work-for-stay, but there was a big group of hikers moving through, and they had all done work for stay previously. Some Croos are nice that way.

As for obligation to hikers, it wouldn't kill AMC to let someone sleep on the floor without food if there's a lightning storm going on outside. People die in the Whites every year. The AMC makes a mint on their monopolistic concession to run huts on public lands. They should have be obligated to provide some benefit to the public besides those who can afford the ridiculous prices they charge. It would be easy to have a rule that said that in bad weather, anyone can sleep on the floor but in good weather they can turn you away.

[rafe]

Well then, you were lucky or had the look of a thru hiker and fooled them.

Work for stay is intended for thru hikers, but it is really up the discression of the crew.

I get the impression (from a journal I just read) that the croo has a great deal of discretion here.

That journal (300 Zeroes) by the way, mentions you.

The pleasure of being a local is not being reliant on the huts. I've spent two nights in AMC huts. Once when a Ranger caught us stealth camping illegally (we were instructed to either go to Madison Hut or be charged with a Federal offense.) A second time at Zealand Falls, w/o reservation, but off-season, well after Labor Day. No problem.

[joshuasdad]

Definitely don't overplan, take it very easy, and take what the Whites give you. I just posted about my NH curse.

[peakbagger]

Walk in a hut with Burger's attitude and you will be disappointed. If you stroll into a hut at 6 PM and demand a place to stay and work for stay then you may become a minority and have a bad experience with hut crew. In July the huts are running at max capacity and there are a lot of weekend overnighters and folks like you on a section, many want to stay at a hut but they are limited by law at a certain occupancy. Don't plan on the huts. Since you have hammocks, just plan on taking a walk down a side trail about 1 mile and lose 1000 feet of elevation. The normal spots for this are Edmonds path just after Eisenhower and Jewell Trail. They are equally spaced on either side of Lake of the Clouds.

Don't forget its light out at 4:30 AM and doesn't get dark until 9 Pm in early July. Folks routinely do the entire presidential ridge from Crawford Notch to Madison as one long day (look up Presidential Traverse). Thus if you pace yourself you should never be in a situation where you don't have camping options.

[burger]

Walk in a hut with Burger's attitude and you will be disappointed.

How do you go from what I wrote to assuming that I would stroll into a hut, drop my pack, and demand a place to stay? Oy. The Croo I met were great, and hikers should be treated as nicely as possible. They don't make the rules, and they have discretion to be nice to thru-hikers if you're nice to them.

On the other hand, the people who run AMC are the scum of the earth in my opinion. But that's a separate issue.

[burger]

Oops, meant to say that hikers should treat the Croo as nicely as possible.

[rafe]

On the other hand, the people who run AMC are the scum of the earth in my opinion. But that's a separate issue.

Not sure who you mean exactly. I volunteered for trail work recently (near home, not on the AT) and the event was organized/funded by AMC. Explanation I heard was that the excess cash taken in from the huts funds a lot of other good stuff. What's the harm in skimming off yuppies for a good cause? If someone's getting rich off that, I wanna know.

Croos are good folks. I don't think they'd leave a tired hiker stranded in a storm.

[burger]

Not sure who you mean exactly. I volunteered for trail work recently (near home, not on the AT) and the event was organized/funded by AMC. Explanation I heard was that the excess cash taken in from the huts funds a lot of other good stuff. What's the harm in skimming off yuppies for a good cause? If someone's getting rich off that, I wanna know.

Croos are good folks. I don't think they'd leave a tired hiker stranded in a storm.

My problem is that they charge an arm and a leg and basically privatize what should be public lands. The hut system, at $124 per night, is priced out of reach of poor or even a lot of middle-class people. Public lands should be for everyone. I think it's sad that the Whites have been turned into a playground for the wealthy. There should, at the very least, be an option for people to stay in the huts and use their own food/equipment and pay a few dollars a night for maintenance and upkeep. Yes, there are other, cheaper places to stay, but if you want to stay in the places with the nicest views (Lake of the Clouds, Madison) or avoid a steep climb, you gotta pay AMC the big bucks. Public lands should be for everyone. Period.

Just because AMC does some other good stuff doesn't mean that the hut system is fair.

Also, if you google around here or trail journals, you can find multiple examples of huts turning away hikers in bad storms. Most croo are really nice, but not all.

[magneto]

Downhill:

You've had lots of great advice already, so I'll just add this encouragement to you.

What a great opportunity! I love the Whites and live about an hour and a half away.

Make whatever plans you like - it's all good. You will have numerous opportunities to hike and camp.

The mountains will teach you - as they have taught me - that they don't respect your plans, but they do provide for you none the less.

There are ample places to camp, plentiful water and lots of good people on the trails - so don't worry to much about a schedule.

Just go - prepared - hike until you are tired, camp and repeat - until you have to go home!

Good luck with your trip!


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