Any January Starters?

[Boots and Backpacks]

As long as you don't run out of food and don't hurt yourself by slipping on the ground I don't see any problems with winter hiking. Snow is beautiful, and you don't feel cold when you dress right. If it is not impossible i would certainly start in January.

I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to read your blog.

We always carry emergency food no matter what time of the year it is.

Losing our footing on something is what I'm really concerned about. We're going to have to be a bit more careful for the first couple months. Between base layer bottoms, hiking pants, and water proof pant. That should keep us plenty warm and dry while we're hiking. We've got down/wool layers for at night for warmth. If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.

We've focused on the picture, and we know this isn't going to come easy. We're going to be cold, wet, and at each others throat sometimes. We'll also be there to motivate each other, and to push each other.

No matter how bad the day is, it's still better than working 9-5.

[Tipi Walter]

I am sorry Tipi, but if you constantly have freezing feet and hands you should go over your equipment again. And you choose not to dry your boots inside your tent with your stove or in your sleeping-bag, that is all on you.

Yes, it would take longer time, but i would put in a hotel stay about every 14 days to dry out everything in the room.

As long as you don't run out of food and don't hurt yourself by slipping on the ground I don't see any problems with winter hiking. Snow is beautiful, and you don't feel cold when you dress right. If it is not impossible i would certainly start in January.

I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to read your blog.

Who says I have constantly freezing feet and hands? I said IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HANDS AND FEET. Keeping these four items warm is the main challenge in winter backpacking.

I would never use my white gas stove to thaw out my hiking boots because there is no resupply and I have a set amount of white gas to get me thru the trip. No extra for wasting. And I never will put my cold or frozen wet boots inside my sleeping bag as they will cool down whatever they are up against inside the bag, namely my feet if the boots are down in the bag's footbox. One improvement I could do for frozen boots is to hike in Sorel-type pac boots but I spent 2 years in Sorels back in '84 and while warm and rubber they are clunky and difficult to do any miles in.

The only time my feet are cold is at shove off in the morning when my boots are frozen. After an hour of hiking the feet are warm cuz I'm moving and the boots are thawing out. Here's what Boots and Backpacks says about it---

Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

Most AT winter hikers will see a hotel/motel long before 14 days passes and so they have alot of opportunities to dry their gear and get very warm. On my winter trips I'm out for the duration (usually 21 days---remember the white gas?), and so I won't see a regular bed or a motel or folding money or a laundry mat or a car in that time. There's no chance for putting quarters in a clothes dryer. And really, nothing much gets wet and stays wet except maybe my hiking socks so there's no need to dry out everything in a room somewhere.

[Marta]

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos....=202739&back=1

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos....=209743&back=1

Here are a couple of photos from my Trailjournal. The first one was in January, Spring Mtn. Georgia. The second one is on top of Albert Mountain, NC. What's missing? Any snow at all!

The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

[Tipi Walter]

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos....=202739&back=1

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos....=209743&back=1

Here are a couple of photos from my Trailjournal. The first one was in January, Spring Mtn. Georgia. The second one is on top of Albert Mountain, NC. What's missing? Any snow at all!

The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

Hey Marta, what kind of pants/legging system do you have going on in this pic? It looks sort of like double longjohn bottoms??? No shorts over the leggings? Hard to tell.




My good friend Amy "Willow" thruhiked the AT in 2006 too and we camped together on Cheoah Bald. Here she is with Model T and Ranger Dawg. Did you meet her?? She probably started way past your start date.

[Oslohiker]

If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.

In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

[Tipi Walter]

In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

Boots and Backpacks Quote---

If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.

Yeah, there's no real warmth using a sleeping bag (esp a down bag) bedroll camping out in the open. Wind cuts right thru a sleeping bag shell. They're probably talking about sleeping in the AT shelters, which don't really offer that much protection either. Think 10F with a butt-biting and face-eatingly cold wind. Then think about how most AT shelters are wide open on one side.

It's why hikers put tarp walls on the shelters. Poor solution when compared to a double wall tent.

[Oslohiker]

Who says I have constantly freezing feet and hands? I said IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HANDS AND FEET. Keeping these four items warm is the main challenge in winter backpacking.

I would never use my white gas stove to thaw out my hiking boots because there is no resupply and I have a set amount of white gas to get me thru the trip. No extra for wasting. And I never will put my cold or frozen wet boots inside my sleeping bag as they will cool down whatever they are up against inside the bag, namely my feet if the boots are down in the bag's footbox. One improvement I could do for frozen boots is to hike in Sorel-type pac boots but I spent 2 years in Sorels back in '84 and while warm and rubber they are clunky and difficult to do any miles in.

The only time my feet are cold is at shove off in the morning when my boots are frozen. After an hour of hiking the feet are warm cuz I'm moving and the boots are thawing out. Here's what Boots and Backpacks says about it---

Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

Most AT winter hikers will see a hotel/motel long before 14 days passes and so they have alot of opportunities to dry their gear and get very warm. On my winter trips I'm out for the duration (usually 21 days---remember the white gas?), and so I won't see a regular bed or a motel or folding money or a laundry mat or a car in that time. There's no chance for putting quarters in a clothes dryer. And really, nothing much gets wet and stays wet except maybe my hiking socks so there's no need to dry out everything in a room somewhere.

In cold weather your sleeping bag will soak up some of your sweat every night, and as long as you pack the sleeping bag in the backpack, this will not leave your bag. The bag will not feel wet, but it will lower the performance over time. 3 weeks is normally not a problem regarding this.

From backpackin.net:
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbags-tips.html

"In the winter, some folks prefer synthetic bags for long-duration outings. The reason is that in extreme cold, your body releases moisture as you sleep, so the down bag gets wet from the inside even though well protected from the outside. One way to prevent that is to use a vapor-barrier lining which keeps the moisture away from the down."

This is a real issue for expeditions in real cold weather, when there are no alternative to down. In winter time in Norway it is just a moderate problem, but still a problem.

Regarding shoes. I am not talking about to heat the shoes so they get bone dry with the stove. You heat them up for a minute of two to get rid of the worst moister, then you just have them inside the tent where they benefit from the heat from your cocking. Hang them from the ceiling of the tent. Using the sleeping bag, you can either finish of the process that was just explained, or it could be the whole process. You keep them by your chest, prying of your body heat, that's the clue.

[Oslohiker]

The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

I can imagine... but having skies with you and using them when necessary, what would the total energy consumption be and time consumption be? That would be interesting to know.

[Boots and Backpacks]

In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

Now this is getting to me. You're on here giving advice, but you're unaware of the shelters that the majority AT hikers use?

We're not going to be sleeping on the ground outside of our tent in the elements. We're going to utilize these shelters almost every night if at all possible. We've never had an issue with staying warm enough in shelter, no matter what time of the year it's been. The shelters put a roof of your head, and most of them have been positioned in such a way that the majority of the wind is blocked. We've been in a few that have not blocked the wind, and in those situations you can use your tent footprint to block the wind from hitting you. We've done that in the past as well, and it worked pretty good.

As I've stated several time. We know what we're doing, and we're not new to this. Last I checked we're the ones that signed up for this, and we're the ones who are going to make it. We didn't pick going out in the winter just to come home two weeks, and you're not going to see us crying/sniffling along the side of trail. Quitting is not going to be an option, unless one of us is too hurt to continue. There's no failure in having to retreat to a town to heal, or to sit out a storm. You need to do what you need to do in order to finish.

Some people on here have been very supportive with the comments they're leaving for us Snowbirds. While others have not been as friendly. These kinds of comments do nothing for people who are about to set out on the AT. I won't be posting on this forum again until after we've been hiking for bit. The negativity has reached it's limits with me, and it tired of receiving negative PM after negative PM. Thank you to those that have supported us, and who are rooting for us.

[Boots and Backpacks]

For those that want to talk with me please send me a PM. You can follow us with the two links in my sig.

[Oslohiker]

Now this is getting to me. You're on here giving advice, but you're unaware of the shelters that the majority AT hikers use?

We're not going to be sleeping on the ground outside of our tent in the elements. We're going to utilize these shelters almost every night if at all possible. We've never had an issue with staying warm enough in shelter, no matter what time of the year it's been. The shelters put a roof of your head, and most of them have been positioned in such a way that the majority of the wind is blocked. We've been in a few that have not blocked the wind, and in those situations you can use your tent footprint to block the wind from hitting you. We've done that in the past as well, and it worked pretty good.

As I've stated several time. We know what we're doing, and we're not new to this. Last I checked we're the ones that signed up for this, and we're the ones who are going to make it. We didn't pick going out in the winter just to come home two weeks, and you're not going to see us crying/sniffling along the side of trail. Quitting is not going to be an option, unless one of us is too hurt to continue. There's no failure in having to retreat to a town to heal, or to sit out a storm. You need to do what you need to do in order to finish.

Some people on here have been very supportive with the comments they're leaving for us Snowbirds. While others have not been as friendly. These kinds of comments do nothing for people who are about to set out on the AT. I won't be posting on this forum again until after we've been hiking for bit. The negativity has reached it's limits with me, and it tired of receiving negative PM after negative PM. Thank you to those that have supported us, and who are rooting for us.

Wow. This must be a language barrier. It was not ironic when I said this was inspiring. Reading what you have been writing I may set an earlier start date myself. I am sorry about the confusion.

I am very aware of the shelters, and you are right I have never slept in one in the winter time, since we don't got shelters like that where I am from. I just imagine that setting up a tent would be the better solution. Tipi seems to be on the same page on this issue. But you know better than me on this issue, I am sure of that.

I still hope some of my other advise is good for you (I am also here to learn myself). I truly wish you a good hike, and I absolutely would like to see you finish, and I truly look forward to read the blog and eventually see you on the top of Katahdin.

[Tipi Walter]

In cold weather your sleeping bag will soak up some of your sweat every night, and as long as you pack the sleeping bag in the backpack, this will not leave your bag. The bag will not feel wet, but it will lower the performance over time. 3 weeks is normally not a problem regarding this.

From backpackin.net:
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbags-tips.html

"In the winter, some folks prefer synthetic bags for long-duration outings. The reason is that in extreme cold, your body releases moisture as you sleep, so the down bag gets wet from the inside even though well protected from the outside. One way to prevent that is to use a vapor-barrier lining which keeps the moisture away from the down."

There's a simple technique most winter backpackers do every morning and it's something I do every morning if possible---I hang my down bag up outside while I'm brewing morning tea and packing up. Just one hour either in the sun or in any kind of breeze will dry the bag and take off the usual morning in-tent bag shell moisture-sheen.

And then there's air humidity and daily changing conditions. Sometimes we get sleetstorms or long cold rains (in the 96 to 150 hour category) whereby the excellent down bag loses a little loft and a little warmth due to air humitidy---but the bag is never wet. Then on Day 12 or 15 of the trip I'm set up in a cold bone-dry wind and the bag gets lofted and fully dry like it was at home and at the start of the trip.

No one I know packs up their sleeping bag in the morning without first hanging it out to dry.

VBLs are used for down bags when the temps stay consistently at below zero of -20F for a month. This doesn't happen in the Southeast and so I do not use or want to use a VBL. In fact, I can't stand sleeping inside a VBL as it's clammy and constricting. Sleeping in a zipped up mummy bag is bad enough, now add a second VBL sheath and we're talking claustrophobia.

Here's the morning ritual of the Well Hung Bag---Snowbird wilderness NC in January 2012

[Oslohiker]

I have never used a vapor barrier myself, I follow you on that one. I do hang up the bag in the morning myself, mostly turning it inside out and put it on top of the tent. It helps but it is still a fine line if enough moister get removed.

[Coffee]

I'm not a winter hiker but on cold mornings I can't wait to just get moving to warm up. So I never hang up my bag or anything like that in camp. I'm trying to get out of camp quickly. I do sometimes air out my bag mid-day if weather permits once I warm up. It must take a lot of discipline to stay in camp airing out a bag for an hour in the earning morning freezing temps!

[Tipi Walter]

I have never used a vapor barrier myself, I follow you on that one. I do hang up the bag in the morning myself, mostly turning it inside out and put it on top of the tent. It helps but it is still a fine line if enough moister get removed.

Like I said, conditions change and bone dry conditions often come on winter trips where the air humidity is very low. I've been in my tent on Day 15 or 18 of a trip and the cold air was so dry all my down items were lofted to the max, so much so that stuffing them was a chore. A week before my bag was moist with 70% of its loft.

This is why is dang important to go overkill with a goose down bag. Bone dry and fully lofted like it is at home your 0F rated down bag will keep you warm nearly to 0F ambients. Now go out for several weeks and get those conditions whereby 30% of the loft is lost due to air humidity. The bag won't perform as well again at 0F.

SOOOOOOO . . . . I use a bag rated to -15F to account for these loft percentages.

[Tipi Walter]

I'm not a winter hiker but on cold mornings I can't wait to just get moving to warm up. So I never hang up my bag or anything like that in camp. I'm trying to get out of camp quickly. I do sometimes air out my bag mid-day if weather permits once I warm up. It must take a lot of discipline to stay in camp airing out a bag for an hour in the earning morning freezing temps!

Just the opposite for me, I can barely tolerate getting early starts before the sun comes up and it's 0F. It's hellish in several ways. The tent is locked in its early morning ice-concrete and I wanna brew up hot liquids and the bag must be hung and it's nice to have hot fluids to thaw the hands as I'm packing up a frozen encrusted tent. Place tongue on tent pole---weep.

When a tent is locked in tight, any extra morning hours help to release the thing w/o me having to chop and scrape and rip off ice chunks and all else. Ideally, the best time to leave would be around noon when things are at their warmest but who has the patience? Everybody's different anyway, but shove off time for me in the winter is usually between 9 and 10am.

And anyway, when the snow is 2+ feet deep and I have a 3,000 foot climb who needs to get an early start? I'll be lucky to make 3 miles before crapping out.

[Oslohiker]

Yup, we are one the same page. An "overkill" sleeping bag is the way to go (and a good winter tent, as you have earlier mentioned). Both because of humidity, but also this will be your rescue when things turn bad.

Drying out a bag in the cold is good because (as you mentioned) the air is often dry, but it is bad because it is based on sublimation, which is a slow process, and all moister may not have left. I do not on the other hand know the local conditions well. This is the experience at where I am from, and what we are taught.

[Oslohiker]

When it comes to a snow shovel, I (PERSONALLY) would not take one with me on an early start on the AT, instead I would use my feet to move snow around (not my hands, except directly on the tent). A shovel is for me in the winter time something to build an emergency cave with. But if I would take one, this would be the one:

http://www.atkrace.it/product/rescue...45-gr/?lang=en

[Tipi Walter]

When it comes to a snow shovel, I (PERSONALLY) would not take one with me on an early start on the AT, instead I would use my feet to move snow around (not my hands, except directly on the tent). A shovel is for me in the winter time something to build an emergency cave with. But if I would take one, this would be the one:

http://www.atkrace.it/product/rescue...45-gr/?lang=en

You're right about a shovel (nobody carries one in the Southeast), but many of my winter trips are to intentionally find the highest mountains in my area (5,600 feet) and explore until a good storm hits. Moving 2 feet of snow for my tent with my boots is a slow job, bending over with the hands is better although it eats my gloves. A snow shovel best of all. Or at least I ordered A Voile XLM and assume it will be much easier. Can't hurt except for the 1lb+ extra weight.

[rocketsocks]

I bought one from dicks last year, I see Wally world is also now carrying these light duty aluminum shovels.