Marathon Pacing input after hike

[Coffee]

That's an amazing improvement. I'll have to look into it.

I just got back from a 20 mile training run completed in 2:42 and done fairly easily with no signs of injury and never hitting the wall, so I'm optimistic about my marathon three weeks from today. I can definitely say that getting back into running shape after an extended hike is no fun at all but I'm glad to be past that stage finally!

[quasarr]

^^^^ I probably should have added something about the importance of building a base first, or a fat-burning machine. My problem is that I don't have the patience to properly do it, because it's not sexy or you don't feel like you've accomplished much after a low-intensity run. Mark Allen describes me to a T in this video. http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/ma...-aerobic-base/


Using HR versus pace may be the way to keep me motivated, like in this link http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/04...-training.html

Thanks for the links! This is really good info. His HR calculations seem to be based on the max HR vs age rule (most often quoted is 220 - age, although there are modifications) My max HR is about 200, which for me at age 29 breaks the rule. And I have seen adjusted numbers that for a 29 year old female, my max should be as low as 180!! So is there a way to adjust the training zone based on your actual max HR?

[Pedaling Fool]

Thanks for the links! This is really good info. His HR calculations seem to be based on the max HR vs age rule (most often quoted is 220 - age, although there are modifications) My max HR is about 200, which for me at age 29 breaks the rule. And I have seen adjusted numbers that for a 29 year old female, my max should be as low as 180!! So is there a way to adjust the training zone based on your actual max HR?

He (Mark Allen) does say this is a general rule and if you're a more accomplished athlete then you're going to want to adjust appropriately. (I'm not sure if he says it in my posted links, but I've read/heard it some where).


As for the 220-age calculations as shown here http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Gettin...41_Article.jsp I think most people don't fit that rule, especially people that have good cardio conditioning. I can't use that table; it's useless for me.

What I take away from Mark Allen's point of building a base is this: Pick a HR that is not super easy, but not difficult at all for maintaining for very long periods of time. (and I'm trying like hell to stick to it -- it takes discipline, because I want to go faster).

However, that HR zone is dependent of the type of activity, for example, since I've been riding a bike since forever, I already have a very solid base, so if I were to pick a HR zone it would be at least 150. However, since I haven't been running as long my HR is a little lower and I put that right now at ~140bpm. BTW, I'm a 50y/o male, so if you look at the above hr zones 140 puts me right around 80%, but that's not correct, because my MAX HR is much higher than listed on that chart.

I just started this regimen (again, hopefully, this time I stick with it for at least 8 weeks), so what I'm looking for is my pace per mile to increase, but my HR zone to stay the same ~140 bpm; then I'll start back up with speed work.

I believe that's the real trick is to pick an easy HR zone to train, which should make you go a little slower than you normally train at and just stick with it for at least 8 weeks. To know that you're in the correct HR zone, remember that you should feel almost like you didn't workout after a run; I think that's the key, because normally I want to feel a little fatiqued (not a dead feeling) after a run, that seems natural, but when I run at 140 bpm I feel energized after a run (like I can do this again) -- that's why I think I found the correct zone for me, because when I'm done I feel like I didn't work. And that's why it's so hard for me to stick with this regimen, because you just don't feel like you're doing anything -- it's counter-intuitive to go for a run and not feel like you left at least a little bit of you out on the road after the run.


Disclaimer: I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about

[Coffee]

And that's why it's so hard for me to stick with this regimen, because you just don't feel like you're doing anything -- it's counter-intuitive to go for a run and not feel like you left at least a little bit of you out on the road after the run.

That's what makes recovery runs hard for me as well. I don't like to get back from a workout not feeling like I got much of a workout. I have one additional stupid psychological issue that screws up some recovery runs - namely, I don't like being passed when I'm running. I know, it is illogical because who know what the other people out there are training for (5K vs Marathon?) I tend to get competitive which may help during a race (although maybe not if it screws up my pacing) but definitely is not helpful during training runs. And running is very popular where I live so there's always lots of people out especially on weekends but even almost every weekday morning.

[Pedaling Fool]

I believe that's the real trick is to pick an easy HR zone to train, which should make you go a little slower than you normally train at and just stick with it for at least 8 weeks. To know that you're in the correct HR zone, remember that you should feel almost like you didn't workout after a run; I think that's the key, because normally I want to feel a little fatiqued (not a dead feeling) after a run, that seems natural, but when I run at 140 bpm I feel energized after a run (like I can do this again) -- that's why I think I found the correct zone for me, because when I'm done I feel like I didn't work. And that's why it's so hard for me to stick with this regimen, because you just don't feel like you're doing anything -- it's counter-intuitive to go for a run and not feel like you left at least a little bit of you out on the road after the run.

BTW, to further explain my choice in HR zone, if I were to go with the formula my HR zone would be 130, but based on experience (trial and error) I've found that 130 was just way too easy; in other words, I could sing a song in that zone, that's how I decided to try a little harder and for now I've set it at 140bpm (give or take...). So recommend you do a little trial and error to find that zone where you can't sing a song, but at the same time you left nothing on the road after a long run (what ever you consider a "long run").

That's what makes recovery runs hard for me as well. I don't like to get back from a workout not feeling like I got much of a workout. I have one additional stupid psychological issue that screws up some recovery runs - namely, I don't like being passed when I'm running. I know, it is illogical because who know what the other people out there are training for (5K vs Marathon?) I tend to get competitive which may help during a race (although maybe not if it screws up my pacing) but definitely is not helpful during training runs. And running is very popular where I live so there's always lots of people out especially on weekends but even almost every weekday morning.

I know exactly what you're saying and I try and find places to run so I can stay away from people, because I do the same thing. Mark Allen says you must leave your ego at home when doing this base training, but I keep forgetting to leave it or it follows me

[Coffee]

Thanks again for the help. The marathon was today and I did pretty well. Missed my personal record by just 33 seconds! Better than I expected given the limited training.

[Mobius]

Congrats on the near-PR! 33 seconds over 26.2 miles is pretty darn close.

[Pedaling Fool]

Thanks again for the help. The marathon was today and I did pretty well. Missed my personal record by just 33 seconds! Better than I expected given the limited training.

What's the problem? All you had to do was quicken your pace so that you ran about 1.3 seconds per mile faster and you would have had a new PR.

Ain't that funny how the math works out

[Coffee]

Until the 23 mile mark, I was on pace to beat my PR and then everything fell apart! Part of the problem is that I can't seem to eat gels in the second half of a marathon so I bonked out a few miles before the finish. The last mile was very slow. I'm going to try honey stinger wafers when I start training again. I've heard that they are easier to handle than gels for some people..

[Just Bill]

Until the 23 mile mark, I was on pace to beat my PR and then everything fell apart! Part of the problem is that I can't seem to eat gels in the second half of a marathon so I bonked out a few miles before the finish. The last mile was very slow. I'm going to try honey stinger wafers when I start training again. I've heard that they are easier to handle than gels for some people..

Congrats on your run- turned out well enough all things considering!

You may want to talk to MALTO...
Not sure how it would work specifically on a marathon but I have been adding maltodextrin to many drinks now thanks to his advice/feedback and appreciate that easy way to drip in extra calories. At roughly 350 calories per cup (I add about 1cup powder to 1L water) it's an easy way to drip calories on top of any food.
If you want to go nutzo- I also mix it with Gatorade- gets too thick for me- but that's an easy 500 cal/liter.

It is pretty tasteless on it's own, a little hard to mix in denser quantities on the trail- but for a run you could premix at home with some hot water. I like it that way with Mint tea- very refreshing and the Mint (or Sleepytime (chamomile/mint) from celestial seasonings) settles your stomach a bit if the calorie bomb is too intense.

I prefer to "drip it in" now instead of chug it. Filling a bladder (or stocking aid station) with a half strength (200 cal/L) mix might be perfect for running.

[Malto]

Congrats on your run- turned out well enough all things considering!

You may want to talk to MALTO...
Not sure how it would work specifically on a marathon but I have been adding maltodextrin to many drinks now thanks to his advice/feedback and appreciate that easy way to drip in extra calories. At roughly 350 calories per cup (I add about 1cup powder to 1L water) it's an easy way to drip calories on top of any food.
If you want to go nutzo- I also mix it with Gatorade- gets too thick for me- but that's an easy 500 cal/liter.

It is pretty tasteless on it's own, a little hard to mix in denser quantities on the trail- but for a run you could premix at home with some hot water. I like it that way with Mint tea- very refreshing and the Mint (or Sleepytime (chamomile/mint) from celestial seasonings) settles your stomach a bit if the calorie bomb is too intense.

I prefer to "drip it in" now instead of chug it. Filling a bladder (or stocking aid station) with a half strength (200 cal/L) mix might be perfect for running.

Most of the gels are maltodextrin so it may not help. The advantage of making your own is the ability to dial in taste. A nice mocha gel would lift the spirits at about mile 23.

[Just Bill]

True- not sure how you feel about caffeine coffee, but you screen name implies you got no issues, lol.
I make tea with Yerba-mate- much more mellow, energetic caffeine IMO, I mix it 1-1 with dried mint when I make my "afternoon" tea with malto- maybe something to try.

I never liked the gels (cost, taste, and bang for your buck), always had to eat them with something personally. Only sharing because they bugged my tummy a bit too- but no issues with it's more diluted forms.

[Coffee]

Reflecting on the situation a bit more, I think that the problem might have more to do with lack of proper hydration than the specific choice of fuel later in the race. I have found that gels do not bother me much, if at all, early in a run when I'm well hydrated. When I took the gels at miles 6 and 12, I followed up with quite a bit of water (I run with a Nathan race belt with two 8 ounce bottles). I typically take gatorade from the race water stations to supplement the water. As the race goes on, I probably get less well hydrated even though I take gatorade from each water station and, as a result, the gels don't get absorbed as well. I know that I get more dehydrated since my urine after a race is quite yellow. During earlier marathons, I overdid it with on-course hydration and had to stop to urinate a couple of times. This time, I only stopped at around mile 12. I need to find a better balance between hydration, fueling, and urination during a marathon. Maybe I should read up on how elite runners urinate and run at the same time? I might need to if I'm going to run a Boston qualifying 3:15 for my January marathon, which would be a 12 minute improvement over my PR.

[Just Bill]

I suppose that's sorta my point with the malto; if you have to drink the water anyway. And the gels are hard to take without water, why not just drink the malto anyway. It seemed to me with the gels that your body can't process the concentrated glop very well anyway. Of course I have no idea on availability or the logistics of aid stations and how the access to refills works.

FWIW- I'm lazier than Malto- http://www.amazon.com/EMERGEN-C-ELEC...lectrolyte+mix
I use this instead of making capsules. I like the flavor and the "fizz" helps dissolve the malto in cooler trail side water. One packet makes a liter.

I know the hiking while pissing trick- seems a bit too conspicuous for a marathon though
Can't imagine that the stadium buddy type devices would stay on either.

LOL- Drinking and running- two past-times you haven't gone all in until you've pissed yourself.

[Pedaling Fool]

Reflecting on the situation a bit more, I think that the problem might have more to do with lack of proper hydration than the specific choice of fuel later in the race. I have found that gels do not bother me much, if at all, early in a run when I'm well hydrated. When I took the gels at miles 6 and 12, I followed up with quite a bit of water (I run with a Nathan race belt with two 8 ounce bottles). I typically take gatorade from the race water stations to supplement the water. As the race goes on, I probably get less well hydrated even though I take gatorade from each water station and, as a result, the gels don't get absorbed as well. I know that I get more dehydrated since my urine after a race is quite yellow. During earlier marathons, I overdid it with on-course hydration and had to stop to urinate a couple of times. This time, I only stopped at around mile 12. I need to find a better balance between hydration, fueling, and urination during a marathon. Maybe I should read up on how elite runners urinate and run at the same time? I might need to if I'm going to run a Boston qualifying 3:15 for my January marathon, which would be a 12 minute improvement over my PR.

You're probably right, it's probably a matter of dialing in your specific needs WRT hydration vs caloire/mineral intake. A pretty interesting video on how team support has to know how to refuel all the different riders on a given team of the Tour de France; there is no one-size-fits-all approach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9VPOZN4uyU