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  1. #1
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    Default winter vapor barrier clothing explorations

    as you might predict for me, a few random directions here. skurka talks about the importance of vapor barrier clothing for winter camping, and the limited use/availability that it gets. so, my first question is: has anybody had any experience using Zpacks rain gear as vapor barrier clothing? it would seem to have the advantage of being incredibly light.

    I am tempted to try/buy a cheapo plastic rain suit to give the whole idea a trial run: http://www.zoro.com/i/G0076623/?utm_...FW4F7AodMyoAHg

    anybody have a better source for a non-permeable stupid lightweight rain suit? maybe something not so one-size large?

    ...then, I am a hammocker and have been trying out the approach of wearing really thin foam insulation on my back, over a base layer and under a wind shirt -- and it has worked really well for me. I am thinking about making something resembling a water skier's vest out of gossamer gear 1/4" foam, which would hang down to the bottom of my butt, and would fasten with velcro in a couple of spots across my chest, with a bit of an overlap in the front. I figure that this would provide insulation AND be a torso vapor barrier. Does anyone have experience with partial vapor barriers -- say, just using a jacket?

    ...if the torso thing works, i would be tempted to make leg wraps. I tried thin foam leg wraps and a wearable 1/8" foam back pad a couple of nights ago in mid-twenties hammocking, with good result.

    regards to all from the lunatic fringe.
    Lazarus

  2. #2
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    The VBL only becomes important on longer duration trips. Escaping body moisture migrates into your insulation and in temps 20(or so) and under, cannot escape your insulation prior to freezing. Eventually (depending on how much you evaporate, not sweat, your metabolism and temps) the insulation is significantly degraded. In the right conditions you may notice a change over a long weekend, but typically you are looking at the week plus long duration hikes that caused Skurka to be a fan. If this is in your future- definitely worth pursuing.

    In winter, with early darkness and generally less lofty mileage goals- stopping every few days to build a fire and warm your insulation may be enough to mitigate the problem. I've gone this route as my deep winter adventure days are long past.

    One advantage that the BPL guys seemed to like- it does create a humid microclimate. I never got into them, but they were also advocating the fishnet base layers as well for this reason. With a light baselayer to prevent clamminess on, you can wear the VBL. I believe Skurka and others extended this to day time use as well on Deep Winter (zero) trips.

    I do use my WBP shell in this way on some winter trips. I also frequently sleep in my Houdini in all but summer- I can't say for sure I'm getting the "microclimate" benefits, but I do feel warmer.

    From my understanding and limited use- VBL's do work, and become critical on deep winter treks. Unfortunately few of us have a use for them so info is hard to find. From all I can tell- Zero degrees and more than a week take a hard look, otherwise...

    I don't make many clothes personally, but you could pick up some Sil-Nylon and have a pant and top made up for fairly cheap, it would need seam sealing. There are also non permeable Tyvek suits available as PPE- you may be able to get one from a painter or asbestos removal sub if you can't get one off the shelf. Lightheart's PU coated rainwear or Z-packs non-breathable Cuben would work fine. I also seem to recall some of the BPL guys making sleeping bag liners from .33 CF for this purpose as well.

    Can't recall the video, but Shug showed a good idea that likely would help you more- He had a "vapor shield"- basically a cheap camp towel or fleece that went around his neck and up to his ridgeline- his exhaling water laden vapor hit it and trapped most of the vapor from settling on his gear. I've had more problems with that than anything in the past. If you find a bit of frost on your bag's shell- that means the vapor made it out and froze when it hit the air. I've only been out a dozen or so nights in truly sub zero (-20 or lower)- in those cases other than falling "snow" from the tarp I found little or no frost on the bag- likely because the vapor froze inside.

    Did you try the Darice Foam from Jo-Ann? Comes in 2mm or 3mm. http://www.joann.com/darice-foam-rol...d/7058373.html

    As I play with the hammocks I like the idea more and more, other than Matt and the few folks at BPL I haven't seen it used much. They only did the basketweave vest thingie.
    The 1/8" from gossamer gear may be a nice one too. Are you trying to supplement or replace your UQ? The only thing that is holding me back; I like the freedom of movement in the hammock, a light foam would give you a nice supplement and likely not get in your way, too heavy and I think position switches would be hard. Although for a backsleeper like yourself likely not as big a concern. I like the idea so I can pursue a more minimal UQ shape, and maybe use a scrap or two to cover that odd knee or elbow that pokes out. In your Mummy Bag, you might also be able to get away with a 20* lower UQ too.

    But yes- if fitted tightly enough, any of the foams would be a VBL. I would think the packing foam, Insultex, or 2mm Darice would be your only options.

    BTW- I need to work out some details still but-
    Current Summer (40deg) bridge with suspension and poles is under a pound.
    I made a 8.5 ounce 20* UQ yesterday- still working on attachment to the 4x9. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=97254

    I made a HyperD 4x9 also- 131g hammock, 43g suspension- 6.1ounces tree to tree.
    SO maybe- 6.1 hammock, 10 ounce 20*UQ, WM bag (16oz) and a cuben tarp (5oz?) would do ya with some clothes into the 20's?
    Summer version if I could do it- 6-8oz UQ, 10-12 oz TQ?

  3. #3
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    Laz,
    you may recall that I had a cuben rain suit on that trip we did in NY and used it as a VBL. I was incredibly comfy both nights even with a 20 deg quilt on snow. I will disagree with Bill on when you can use VBL. I have been experimenting with it at higher temperatures, 30s and have been pleasantly surprised by the results.

    to start, you can use waterproof booties or bread bags over liner socks. It is amazing how much difference that one change will make. The cuben rain suit is worn over the lightest base layer I can find then insulation layers if need over the rain suit.

    i have become a huge proponent of VBL. MIT is one tool, or technique of many that can be used to make your gear more versatile. I have been using it in my quest to extend my three season gear into the winter as far as possible.

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    Malto, so that's where I remember it from! Do you actually ever use that cuben rain suit for rain or is it just a VBL? Does it make any sense to take a pretty tight fitting cuben suit for vbl wear in camp and a more breathable rain suit -- like driducks?

    I have been quite comfortable wearing thin foam sheets over a baselayer up to around 35 degrees, as long as I am really careful not to overheat.

    Just Bill -- I am trying to figure out how to augment my hammock underquilt AND my 15 degree sleeping bag to push my comfort level range to perhaps a little bit below zero, AND to increase my hanging out in camp comfort range. You are right, I haven't really observed the moisture in my sleeping bag build up that plagued Skurka. The whole idea of wearing foam is to get more warmth with less weight in a way that will make my hammock system work better. If I wear the foam, I don't need as much of it as I would if I started trying to line my hammock with it -- or insert it into a hammock pocket, and I get the added benefit of a VBL (i think...) and added sitting around comfort.

    oh, and i spent a lot of time practicing walking over the last couple of days!

    and what the H is MIT?
    Lazarus

  5. #5

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    The current version of the Zpacks BREATHABLE CF rain gear is not a true VBL. This is a different CF with some decent breathability ratings - the ability of a fabric to allow moisture vapor to be transmitted through the material - from the MVT specs I've seen Joe sent me. This was a completely different take on CF for me. This was a CF unknown to me. Older Zpacks CF rain jacket versions, I believe, were made from what is generally considered a non permeable different CF fabric. I can't imagine hiking in the older non permeable CF rain jackets - super sweat fest in a wide range of conditions.

    I recognize breathable permeable rain gear as, including the ZPacks BREATHABLE CF rain gear, zipped up jacket, and cinched down pants, as a pseudo VBL NOT a true VBL, that can help reduce moisture transfer into down. That MAY be all that you need to address moisture build up in down. As JB said, I find this more of a concern on long winter treks and some very wet hikes. However, with the advent of treated down(YIPPEE!), and also throwing my breathable rain gear into the system, and possibly also a silk mummy bag/quilt liner and/or employing more weather proof sleeping bag/quilt fabrics, instead when compromised down loft/thermal efficiency is of greater concern (at least to me), I see less need for a true non permeable VBL set-up especially on wk length or less non remote back country milder winter temps treks. Consider what Skurka likely was thinking about, the conditions/kind of treks he's done/was planning, like in Alaska. Get inside his head and you'll see what I mean. I've read that article several times. Lots of sagacious info, that I've come to expect from the ever thinking Skurka, and I could be wrong about this, but it may have been written some time ago before the larger emergence and user experience of hydrophobic down.

    I see the super wt conscious Skurka wanting a VBL system that does multi functions/multi duty i.e. VBL clothing. He likely would want a component VBL system like separate VBL socks, pants, jacket, hat, that would be used more than just for sleep. I get it. However, if you wanted to experiment with a like VBL non component system I would think something like a simple cheap mylar Sol bivy might suffice.

    Again, I think there may be more current options, that could possibly be used cumulatively, that would serve much the same purpose as a true VBL than when the article was written. Just my ramblins

  6. #6
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    Laz-
    The foam makes good sense, just not enough folks playing with it to say for sure. As a back piece and leg piece- it should be a nice bump in the hammock- around camp- assuming you are sitting around a fire- it would help a lot for the legs and back that are away from the fire.

    I mostly agree on the hammock use- but not sure yet on all the ins and outs of the mysteries of the UQ. In theory you should need less insulation there than on top, in practice it doesn't seem to be the case. But I'm all for selective use of the pad- even if the VBL part doesn't pan out.

    You'd need a full foam suit to truly be a VBL, so I don't think you'd get much out of it that way. Inside a windshell (partial VBL) would help that somewhat. It certainly wouldn't hurt.

    Malto has an excellent point though on the feet- probably 2nd after your breath for moisture vapor- bread bagging the feet would go a long way.

    Malto- I believe you are one of the earlier BPL folks I was thinking of- would be interested to hear you thoughts on pushing it. There are very few trying it that I know of.

  7. #7
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    Bread bags = BagTex
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    I made my rain suit and it's fairly tight by design. I do wear it as a rain suit, enough so that I blew the seat out on the wonderland trail and it needs a bit of repair to make it VBL worthy. I may switch out to a poncho and dedicate the rain suit to winter and VBL

    One thing that is driving my push of VBL for slightly warmer temperatures is a huge reduction in condensation. If I was a gear whore I would switch out to a 30-35 deg quilt and see how low I could push that sleep system with VBL. Some don't like the "in the womb" feeling of sleeping in a VBL but I don't mind it. The biggest thing to get used to is not overheating when first going to bed. A high humidity environment could become a sweat box.

    you could do a very cheap trial. Bread bags, garbage bag for torso and give it a go. Or just tape up some garbage bags into a suit.

  9. #9

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    Stephen's Warmlite VBL has been around for quite some time.
    http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier-clothing

  10. #10

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    You could try using the tyveck waterproof onesie that they use to spray pesticides. I think I saw it at tractor supply store. Any place that sells hard-core chemical spray will have it.

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    Getting caught out and hiking in the snow on the AT, what gets cold are my feet and hands. Everything else pretty good or OK. Am going to check out Stephen's socks and gloves as posted above. Also like bread bags on my feet, works great.

    For years I have had a GoLite wind shirt. Great, lightweight thermal barrier

  12. #12

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    I have found that high humidity--moist air effects my down items much more than any moisture my body produces. Example---When I leave home to go on a winter trip my down bag is fully dry and fully fluffed. Five days later on the trail in a sleetstorm the bag has reduced loft, of course. On Day 8 of the trip the sun comes out with a dry wind and the bag is fluffed back to like my first day.

    On long trips in a series of blizzards the down bag will absorb more air moisture and get flatter, especially in a frozen condensating tent. The normal routine is to hang out the bag every morning and in an hour the shell moisture is "sublimated" or whatever it's called, and dry.

    Plus, I can't stand the feel of VBL's---too clammy and just not needed. Now, if I was pulling 3 weeks at -20F I would consider it. But in the mountains I backpack VBL's are just not needed UNLESS a person is attempting to get by with inadequate gear (a lighter pack) and needs whatever warmth a VBL can provide.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Connie View Post
    Stephen's Warmlite VBL has been around for quite some time.
    http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier-clothing
    their clothing is heavier than necessary for the use(in my opinion...), and their VBL socks don't seem to be appropriate for long distance hiking -- too much seam work. I have a pair of their socks and have never been able to make them work comfortably. probably perfect for a ski lift attendant. I might go down to my basement and see if i can find the VBL shirt that I bought from warmlite around ten years ago, to see how much it weighs...

    Not a VBL, but I have had great success with Rocky goretex socks -- both for warmth and for dryness.
    Lazarus

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    Tipi, I sort of agree with you. The only compelling reason to consider VBL use is to save weight. If weight is not an issue, or if comfort trumps regardless of the weight penalty, then, well, don't even bother to read any posts in the UL forum. Please note: this response is given with love, affection and a whole hell of a lot of admiration.
    Lazarus

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    sorry for the third post -- i did just find the warmlite jacket i've had hidden away -- it weighs around 5 ounces. not as bad as i thought.
    Lazarus

  16. #16

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    "Malto has an excellent point though on the feet- probably 2nd after your breath for moisture vapor- bread bagging the feet would go a long way."

    The moisture affecting down problem is exacerbated when jumping into a down sleeping bag w/ wet moist damp feet, clothing, while still revved up from hiking, etc. The simple act of calming down producing less energy that translates to less vapor before getting into a down sleeping bag helps lessen the issue. This is normally of little issue on short winter trips but the vapor can accumulate over time on an extended trip. Switching to a dry set of sleeping clothing helps lessen the issue too. Mentioning that as it might be important if hiking in VBL socks.

    "Malto- I believe you are one of the earlier BPL folks I was thinking of- would be interested to hear you thoughts on pushing it. There are very few trying it that I know of."

    If I can answer that too, I do just as Malto. Sean's kit/sleep system and hiking style/philosophy is very similar to my own. I'll wear a base layer, UL rain jacket and rain pants over the base, w/ WP socks( those HANZ ones I've been mentioning), and if really pushing the comfortabilty of a down/ quilt/sleeping bag, another insulating over/or under the rain wear. This gives the warmth and moisture reduction necessary to take the 35* WM Highlite sleeping bag I normally use regularly into 20-25 sleeping temps under a CF tarp set up in a A-frame configuration for longer durations between town stops. Since I'm up on the go early I'm not willing to wait around drying down sleeping bags as Tipi suggested as an alternative. At the next town stop I'll dry a compromised loft down sleeping bag. With hydrophobic down in the highest FP ratings now widely available I see even less need for a true non permeable VBL. I'm also not doing multi month Alaska back country trips stopping in remote towns only once every 10 + days as Andrew was doing. All this gets tricky though when throwing a bivy into the mix. That's another thread.

  17. #17

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    I first read about VBL, maybe 30 years ago. Oops! Did I give away my age? Well, not entirely. Keep 'em guessing, I say.

    That book that mentioned VBL was at REI.

    It was for extreme dry cold, to keep "insensible moisture" on skin.

    The explanation was the skin needs "insensible moisture". We do not experience "insensible moisture" as sweat.

    The skin requires a moist microclimate. This explanation is provided for wearing silk next to the skin, as well.

    The book described artic dry cold extremes. It was written by a MD.

    I do not recall the name of the book: Below Zero?

    I manage, in Montana cold, with artificial fabric military "silkweights" or 150-wt. soft merino, or, heavy silk-wool longjohns bottoms, bibs, merino top, vest, plus a jacket. I wear a "railroad" insulated Foley hat.

    I also use a PolarWrap face mask. I have sent for the PolarWrap balaclava, by online purchase.

    These items are getting difficult to find: I don't know what happened. Maybe medical use COPD people may have sued? Maybe astmatics? I have no explanation for these great products disappearing off the market.

    Botach has some PolarWrap products in stock.

    It pre-warms the inbreath with my own axhalation, and body warmth, I suppose. It works.

    I feel warmer. I do not get moisture from breath on my fluffy down sleeping system, or, down clothing, or, inside surface of my bivy, tarp or tent. I think it is a great product for backpackers and snowshoers and cross-country ski travel involving overnight tipi tenting for our actually "temperate zone" winter cold.

    I have no idea how well it performs, in a colder environment like the artic or anartic.

    I have seen a rebreather sold, by Black Diamond, as a last resort if burried in an avalance. It keeps the moisture from icing over the snow that has you buried, so the air in the fluffy snow is available. That product was called Ava-Lung. Expensive, I think it would be useable under a parka to do the same thing I get from PolarWrap. I remember it was sold, shown in the advertisements under a parka for cold weather.
    Last edited by Connie; 11-22-2014 at 16:27.

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