Unsustainable number of starts at Sprimger oww

[JohnnySnook]

Are you actually suggesting hidden cameras on the A.T.? Most of us go hiking to get away from that sort of nonsense.

Okay, maybe hidden cameras was the wrong way to get my point across. Hidden cameras don't do any good on the trail. I should of said cameras at the shelters. Even fake cameras would make people respect the area more. Even real cameras that would really only be operational during peaking hiking times.

I do not want cameras all over the trail watching hikers. Just at shelters or highly used campsites that are abused by campers.

Just the site of a camera might influence a hiker not to take a dump right outside a shelter, leave trash laying around the shelter, or throwing it in the fire pit.

It's been proven even fake cameras and other methods can make people do the right thing.

What about a infrared camera that is mounted on top of the shelter. Most people have similar internal temperatures. If they step out of a shelter and p!SS right there they are recorded or maybe a speaker blasts a message for them to walk 200 feet into the woods. This would wake up other hikers and I bet that person will never p!$$ right outside of a shelter ever again.

Just think of options to keep things clean and natural.

I really don't want to be watched on my hike as that is what I want to get away from but at some point the trash and human waste left behind at shelters will not be pretty for humans or bears that come into the shelter areas looking for food.

[rocketsocks]

Okay, maybe hidden cameras was the wrong way to get my point across. Hidden cameras don't do any good on the trail. I should of said cameras at the shelters. Even fake cameras would make people respect the area more. Even real cameras that would really only be operational during peaking hiking times.

I do not want cameras all over the trail watching hikers. Just at shelters or highly used campsites that are abused by campers.

Just the site of a camera might influence a hiker not to take a dump right outside a shelter, leave trash laying around the shelter, or throwing it in the fire pit.

It's been proven even fake cameras and other methods can make people do the right thing.

What about a infrared camera that is mounted on top of the shelter. Most people have similar internal temperatures. If they step out of a shelter and p!SS right there they are recorded or maybe a speaker blasts a message for them to walk 200 feet into the woods. This would wake up other hikers and I bet that person will never p!$$ right outside of a shelter ever again.

Just think of options to keep things clean and natural.

I really don't want to be watched on my hike as that is what I want to get away from but at some point the trash and human waste left behind at shelters will not be pretty for humans or bears that come into the shelter areas looking for food.

Hey why stop there? How bout laser guided missiles to dispatch the irresponsible party right there on the spot...just vaporize the the SOB

[Starchild]

Hey why stop there? How bout laser guided missiles to dispatch the irresponsible party right there on the spot...just vaporize the the SOB

Interceptor missiles that would target what should be cat-holed away from the shelter before it hits the ground.

Now that would encourage proper waste management.

[HogFan]

This thread is all kinds of interesting.

[Dahoyt]

Best thread ever.

[Ktaadn]

If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.

[kayak karl]

If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.

but then you won't be a thru hiker. the purist say "every white blaze", others say no blue blazes. not my feelings, but the posts on Whiteblaze do promote this type of thinking.

[Lauriep]

Hey, I just wanted to say thank you to all for your input. Just because I haven't responded doesn't mean that I'm not reading and appreciating all the feedback and ideas. Quite a few others on our staff and various trail-management/conservation committees are reading too. Although ATC did have an open panel discussion at The Gathering in October, beyond that we hadn't quite reached the point of actively reaching out for more feedback. Rick B. did that for us on his own--but the timing is probably just right. There will be much more dialog going forward, I hope.

There seems to be a lot of feeling on both sides that ATC and the trail community together can solve these new challenges, which Ron Tipton (ATC's executive director) and others are always quick to point out are also "opportunities."

Laurie P.
ATC

[full conditions]

If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.

It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.

[hikernutcasey]

It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.

I agree. The problem at hand is not trying to appease 100 new hikers every day trying to start on the same day. The problem is the impact and/or damage to the trail and surrounding areas these hikers create and what to do about it.

[Spit Walker]

The best and worst parts of the AT are the people.

[mikec]

Start pushing the Great Eastern Trail as an alternative:

http://www.greateasterntrail.net/

[rocketsocks]

It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.

Many may need to start at these times for a many differing reasons, all anyone can really ask another to do is to consider the start time, and while it may affect the whole, It's a personal decision that no one need justify....either way it'll work out in the end, or it'll be worked out.

[Bronk]

The ATC would need to think about awarding their 2000 miler certificate regardless of which trail the hiker chose.

The Benton MacKaye Trail would certainly solve the issue for those hikers looking for a more "wilderness" experience.

Or it might just turn the Benton Mackaye trail into the same kind of circus their is on the AT.

[Bronk]

A simple solution would be to get with these movie types and people that promote books and give the public the general impression that most people hike southbound. Most people do what they perceive to be normal and would follow suit.

[Stalingrad]

Dispersing the bubble could be easily done by encouraging college-aged students to start later. Most of them will plan to graduate or drop-out a semester early, just to start in March-April with everyone else. If we can promote a later start date (in May/June, after the spring semester) for young people, we could effectively split the bubble in two, with older folks starting in March/April, and younger folks starting in May/June. While this won’t reduce the total number of people who start at Springer it will disperse them and have a few other advantages.

For the young folks:
You’ll be starting when it’s warmer
You’ll have a couple extra months to plan/save up money
You won’t have to miss school or rush to graduate early
You’ll be more likely to find other people on the trail who are your age (this alone is probably the biggest selling-point)
You can take your following Fall semester off, if applicable/necessary
You can still make it to Katahdin before the park closes (those youthful legs and lack of funds will get you there in no time, right??)

For the other folks:
You won’t have to deal with the millennials until much later
There will be less of a crowd at the start
You’ll be less likely to find the ‘traveling partyer’ types
A good analogy would be that it’s like Adult Swim at the pool, only it lasts for a few months instead of a few minutes.

Another thing to keep in mind is that since college and high-school graduation dates vary wildly, the May/June bubble will probably be more dispersed than the March/April bubble.

I personally will be starting my thru-hike at Fontana Dam on May 4^th (I already hiked from Springer-Fontana last August).

[Coffee]

Sounds like a good plan but how do we fool those late starting millennials that the mid-Atlantic is not Godawful in July and August?

[rocketsocks]

Sounds like a good plan but how do we fool those late starting millennials that the mid-Atlantic is not Godawful in July and August?

last two weeks in July and 1st two weeks August is trail magic month...sponsored by Snikers and Budwiser.

[Alligator]

If you look at the 2000 miler stats on the ATC site, completions are broken out by percentages:65% are NOBOS, 10% SOBOs, 5% Flipfloppers and 20% are section hikers. So 16 out of 20 completions are thruhikers. Considering just the thruhikers 13 out 16 are NOBOS, 2 out of 16 are SOBOS and just 1 out 16 are flipfloppers. Now these are for completions but let's assume that drop out rates are roughly the same across these groups. Bronk just made a point about getting people to switch to SOBO and I think others have mentioned getting people to pick alternative routes and starting times. That's what needs to be promoted by hikers and the ATC-Alternate Itineraries. I know the ATC does this, maybe more could be done. Here's something to aim for. If 5 of those 13 NOBOS can be persuaded to go an alternative route, the number of NOBO thruhikers drops to 50%. And that's not from 65% (13 out 20) but from 81% (13 out 16 as I am talking about thruhikers). That's a 30% reduction in NOBOs. If the number of thruhiker starts was 3000 for the year, that would be 900 hikers moved to significantly different starting points and/or starting dates. That's substantially better than staggering hikers out by days at Springer. Take it even further, if there were just four accepted thruhiking itineraries, and hikers were persuaded enough that they ended up evenly picking all the routes, there would only be 4 out 16 hikers starting at Springer. That would be just 750 Springer starts for a year of 3000 thruhikers. That's still sufficient to maintain the social aspect of the trail. Plus, there would be potential short periods when the various groups passed one another.

I don't see this being accomplished without promotion though. If larger percentages of NOBOs keep finishing the trail, it just perpetuates the idea that NOBO is the way to hike the trail. Active effort needs to happen to better promote the alternatives. Here are just a few ideas to do that.

1. Hikers need to stop claiming that a thruhike is not a thruhike unless it starts at Springer and ends at Katahdin. Nothing wrong with SOBO right? A zero day for travel if you do the trail in pieces is no different than a NOBO taking a zero for whatever reason so nothing wrong with calling a flip-flop a thruhike either. Nobody's hike is exactly the same.

2. The ATC, in my view, chose to sidestep many of the ad nauseum arguments of what constitutes a thruhiker by adopting the definition "A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year). " and also by giving recognition for completing the trail to 2000 milers. Maybe the ATC should make an official statement that finishing the trail over 12 months is a thruhike. It's a very wide intepretation and really does not downgrade anyone's hike, it's a big net.

3. Regretfully I have not been keeping up with reading my A.T. Journeys and so I am not sure if this is already being done, but strong emphasis by the ATC on the alternate itineraries would be a good plan. Really market it. Spotlight hikers who have opted different routes in blogs, the magazine, hiker gatherings, books, etc.

4. On the forum side of things, prospective hikers might utilize online resources to meetup when starting alternative routes. Past thruhikers might look to connect specifically with these prospective hikers to provide route specific advice. Section hikers as well can provide perspectives as their sections may have coincided with the alternate routes.

There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's!

[rocketsocks]

If you look at the 2000 miler stats on the ATC site, completions are broken out by percentages:65% are NOBOS, 10% SOBOs, 5% Flipfloppers and 20% are section hikers. So 16 out of 20 completions are thruhikers. Considering just the thruhikers 13 out 16 are NOBOS, 2 out of 16 are SOBOS and just 1 out 16 are flipfloppers. Now these are for completions but let's assume that drop out rates are roughly the same across these groups. Bronk just made a point about getting people to switch to SOBO and I think others have mentioned getting people to pick alternative routes and starting times. That's what needs to be promoted by hikers and the ATC-Alternate Itineraries. I know the ATC does this, maybe more could be done. Here's something to aim for. If 5 of those 13 NOBOS can be persuaded to go an alternative route, the number of NOBO thruhikers drops to 50%. And that's not from 65% (13 out 20) but from 81% (13 out 16 as I am talking about thruhikers). That's a 30% reduction in NOBOs. If the number of thruhiker starts was 3000 for the year, that would be 900 hikers moved to significantly different starting points and/or starting dates. That's substantially better than staggering hikers out by days at Springer. Take it even further, if there were just four accepted thruhiking itineraries, and hikers were persuaded enough that they ended up evenly picking all the routes, there would only be 4 out 16 hikers starting at Springer. That would be just 750 Springer starts for a year of 3000 thruhikers. That's still sufficient to maintain the social aspect of the trail. Plus, there would be potential short periods when the various groups passed one another.

I don't see this being accomplished without promotion though. If larger percentages of NOBOs keep finishing the trail, it just perpetuates the idea that NOBO is the way to hike the trail. Active effort needs to happen to better promote the alternatives. Here are just a few ideas to do that.

1. Hikers need to stop claiming that a thruhike is not a thruhike unless it starts at Springer and ends at Katahdin. Nothing wrong with SOBO right? A zero day for travel if you do the trail in pieces is no different than a NOBO taking a zero for whatever reason so nothing wrong with calling a flip-flop a thruhike either. Nobody's hike is exactly the same.

2. The ATC, in my view, chose to sidestep many of the ad nauseum arguments of what constitutes a thruhiker by adopting the definition "A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year). " and also by giving recognition for completing the trail to 2000 milers. Maybe the ATC should make an official statement that finishing the trail over 12 months is a thruhike. It's a very wide intepretation and really does not downgrade anyone's hike, it's a big net.

3. Regretfully I have not been keeping up with reading my A.T. Journeys and so I am not sure if this is already being done, but strong emphasis by the ATC on the alternate itineraries would be a good plan. Really market it. Spotlight hikers who have opted different routes in blogs, the magazine, hiker gatherings, books, etc.

4. On the forum side of things, prospective hikers might utilize online resources to meetup when starting alternative routes. Past thruhikers might look to connect specifically with these prospective hikers to provide route specific advice. Section hikers as well can provide perspectives as their sections may have coincided with the alternate routes.

There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's!

Excellent ideas and one bold notable that really stands out for me a easy implemented and viable plan starting...right away.