Unsustainable number of starts at Sprimger oww

[colorado_rob]

I think we are missing a larger issue and just concentrating on fear of change. The AT and the AT experience is growing and evolving, this is not going to stop. If we cling on to the old ways with the AT yes we will hit unsustainability, but that would be due to our short sightedness...

Well said. "fear of change" is spot on. It is really cool how unregulated the AT is right now, but IMHO zero big deal if regulations are imposed, especially if said regulations only have to be imposed in the southern-most couple hundred miles.

Maybe I personally only say "no big deal" because I frequent lots of places, like National Parks, where regulations are already in place, and it's easy to piss and moan about them, but they are actually a good thing.

My big disappointment along the AT was the crowding in the first couple hundred miles, mostly the trashy conditions and over-crowding at the shelters and established camps. It got much better further north, of course. Seems like just concentrating on GA/NC/TN will do the trick towards a more pleasant experience for some of us that are just not used to such "crowded" trails ("crowded" in quotes, because really, the trail itself is not crowded, just the gathering spots, like shelters/camps).

In any case, seems like we have some very thoughtful folks (like LaurieP) working the issue.

[rickb]

Rick,

Thanks for your suggestions, but we are not doing nothing. We'll be sharing more about the variety of strategies we will be pursing soon.

Laurie

Laurie,

If that was implied by my post, please accept my sincere apologies. I have the utmost respect for the ATC and its mission and know that you and your team are fighting for both the Trail and its Hikers.

I am worried though. Mostly about how the ATC and the NPS and other parties will continue to work together to balance the need to protect the physical without screwing up the hiking experience with permits and such.

To be be clear, I have absolutely no foundation for those concerns-- I am just another voice on the Internet with a general belief that good people working in all areas of the government turn too quickly to rules and regulations to solve problems. I am glad the ATC has the hikers back, and really do know that is the case.

That said, I coming to the realization that this is super critical time on the history of the Trail, and that decisions made in the coming months and years will have a very profound impact.

I have confidence everyone in the ATC leadership will do their very best to stay true to the vision, but expect its not going to be easy.

[RED-DOG]

this "study" is about 15 years too late. georgia was overcrowded then. maybe the ATC shouldn't give out certificates and take pictures at the headquarters glorifying a thru-hike. don't see how they're gonna regulate folks walkin' in the woods

I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.

so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.

[Another Kevin]

I guess that's some kind of pre-emptive rant.

Yeah, I think I got out on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

[Starchild]

Starchild. I don't get it. What would they be doing in Suches? Hanging out until it's their turn to start?

Envisioned, it would be a stop early on on the trail, a place to spend the night, a place were it would be easier to maintain then a camp/shelter sight in the woods that could handle larger numbers. Also envisioned to be attractive to many to stay there, sort of if I understand the term correctly, the PCT kickoff site.

[Des]

I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.

I agree that there is perhaps too much glory associated with a traditional thru-hike and I've certainly met far too many hikers up in MA who were still on the trail only because "there's a finish line." I never understood that sort of masochism.

However I think its a bit too much of a generalization to say that everybody is in it for the glory now. Both in '11 and '13 I met many hikers of both sorts and in fact I think those that were in it to "experience the woods" were more likely to complete the whole trail although maybe not as thru-hikers.

[peakbagger]

I have to qualify that I section hiked the AT over a 10 plus period of time. I intentionally avoided the crowds by hiking out of synch with the majority of the Northbounders. In 2002 I did much of southern VA starting at the south end of SNP and heading south in April. We had about 4 good weeks with few folks on the trail and then the last week we started hitting the early crowds of "thru hikers". Although the majority were great folks, the minority got annoying enough that we stopped out hike in Damascus about two weeks prior to trail days.

If I had the inclination to go on I would have swapped out my bivy for a tent and started tenting which I believe would have cut down on encounters with poorly mannered wannabe thru hikers. I guess I need to modify the HYOH creed with HYOH as long as it doesn't impact others HYOH experience.

IMHO - a big driver with the traditional Northbound thruhike is the weather patterns tend to be in transition in the spring and there are many stretches of cold wet weather that drive poorly equipped folks to depend on shelters. I also think a contributing factor is buying ultralight gear and not having the experience to use it correctly and to admit when more gear is needed. I ran into a couple of folks north of Damascus that had changed out their gear at MRO for ultralight gear and were freezing one day later when cold wet weather came through.

In the meantime I am an ATC member and have ATC listed as the recipient of my AmazonSmile donations. Pretty painless

[Sarcasm the elf]

Admittedly this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but here's a suggestion: What if they passed a regulation requiring that everyone that plans on starting on a thru from Spring has to do a two week backpacking trip somewhere on the A.T. beforehand so that they get some experience and figure out if backpacking is right for them.

[Another Kevin]

Admittedly this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but here's a suggestion: What if they passed a regulation requiring that everyone that plans on starting on a thru from Spring has to do a two week backpacking trip somewhere on the A.T. beforehand so that they get some experience and figure out if backpacking is right for them.

It's a great idea, until you start getting into the problem of verifying the backpacking experience of the applicant. I can just imagine it, having to pay for a two-week backpacking trip under the supervision of a licensed instructor in order to have a piece of paper saying that I'm experienced. It'd probably create some jobs, though, for the instructors, and the bureaucrats who would handle the licensing.

Be careful what you ask for.

[bamboo bob]

My first day backpacking was headed north from Springer. If I had done a two week trip I likely never would have developed this backpacking disease. I might have quit while I was ahead.

[tiptoe]

When I first started section-hiking the AT, I felt somewhat unworthy to be out there with the thru-hikers. A trail maintainer in NJ reminded me that thru-hiking was not the original intent of the AT, which as I understand it was to provide an outdoor experience to the millions of people who lived near the trail. Also, I realized on reflection that I was very happy with my sections, which were a much better fit for my job, family life, and garden obsession. I highly recommend sectioning to others as well, even if it's just a trial run for a thru. New hikers would at least develop a more realistic idea of what to expect on a trek, which would help them decide whether to commit to a thru.

[bat_manatee]

I think its hilarious that HYOH is a such a mantra around here, yet we have a group of "Grumpy Old Guys/Gals" who insist that there is too much "glory" in a thru hike.

What happened to people doing a hike for their own reasons? Who are you to say?

This just sounds like more stereotypical whining and complaining coming from "older generations" about "younger generations" that has been happening for millennia, just applied to the AT.

Also, RED DOG, for someone who doesn't care about the prestige of a Thru, you didn't fail to mention your thrus MULTIPLE times, and you also are sporting that 2000 miler badge next to your name. I also wonder if your photo can be found in the books at Harpers Ferry? (Because you wouldn't be hypocritical at all right?)

[Malto]

The best way of regulating the numbers of hikers north of GSMNP would be the elimination of shelters. I suspect this alone would severely cut back both the numbers starting and the percentage of finishers. After a few nights tenting in the rain many would go home to a warm bed.

[wdanner]

I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.

so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.

I find it hard to believe people would walk over 2,100 miles for a picture. For a finish line, sure. Won't this problem somewhat regulate itself? If the bubble moving north exhausts the supply of beds at hostels and empties store shelves at resupply points, some people are going to have a bad experience. Word will get out that hiking during peak season with the expectation of a bed at every hostel and food at every resupply won't be guaranteed. It is already impacting people's decisions for hiking. This aspect is one of the big reasons I plan to go SoBo. I don't want to start early and deal with big snowstorms. I don't want to start late and experience that nasty mid-atlantic summer. I don't want to deal with crowds of hikers at resupply points that become inconvenient. So I'm go SoBo!

I wonder if making bigger shelters and expanding hostel services will make it better, or worse, by encouraging even larger crowds.

[The Cleaner]

What about hiker feeds and trail magic? No one has commented on this yet and IMO it adds to the crowding problem. On the southern end around the start of the circus, there is a hiker feed or trail magic at every paved road crossing. Then you got individuals leaving unattended coolers and food at some off road locations. I'd say some hikers wouldn't make too far w/o a hot meal waiting on them at the end of a long day. Just seems like some, not all, expect all this while some just say "no" and politely move on. How many people would eat food prepared by strangers at your local shopping mall? All this is prohibited in National Parks but it's a free for all everywhere else along the trail.
Last May I was camped on the AT near Jones Meadow, where the local hiking club(The Greeneville Hiking Club) was having a hiker feed. A few hikers who came in to the camp near closing time, asked if the feed was still on, then dropped their packs and almost ran the 100 yards out to the feed site. This is just north of Hot Springs and while some may have already given up and gone home, I think that Trail Days in Damascus is where many quit or shortly after, and the party crowd has partied too hard and they leave.
Since I get to see close up use at Jerry's Cabin shelter by going in at least twice a month in the spring to clean up, I could tell that this spring many hikers stayed there and even noticed more area cleared for tent sites. I would clean up the fireplace and fire pit and find them with trash again after spending 2 nights in the surrounding area a few miles away then returning on my way out. I don't know the solution either but some kind of regulation will be needed to protect the trail from too many hikers. I think that the number of hikers is only a small part of the problem, it's the conduct of some which leads to a lesser quality wilderness experience for others.

[Starchild]

I find it hard to believe people would walk over 2,100 miles for a picture. For a finish line, sure. Won't this problem somewhat regulate itself? If the bubble moving north exhausts the supply of beds at hostels and empties store shelves at resupply points, some people are going to have a bad experience. Word will get out that hiking during peak season with the expectation of a bed at every hostel and food at every resupply won't be guaranteed. It is already impacting people's decisions for hiking. This aspect is one of the big reasons I plan to go SoBo. I don't want to start early and deal with big snowstorms. I don't want to start late and experience that nasty mid-atlantic summer. I don't want to deal with crowds of hikers at resupply points that become inconvenient. So I'm go SoBo!

I wonder if making bigger shelters and expanding hostel services will make it better, or worse, by encouraging even larger crowds.

Since much of the services are private I suspect, as has been the case, that the supply would increase to meet the demand. Now it may not work with a dramatic bump in hikers, but overall the hikers will draw enough services to support them.

[The Cleaner]

Just a note to the grammar and punctuation police, I had the my above post spaced with paragraphs but it all ran into one blob when I hit post after previewing.Just think how bad it could be w/o spell check. I'd rather use a Vista PC with a bug than a new one running Winblows 8'''

[Tuckahoe]

I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.

so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.

I am one that would say that the ATC does not glorify the thru-hike, especially considering what the ATC recognizes is the 2000 miler.

I believe that the so called glorification comes from the thru-hiker and the would be thru-hiker. Those who have finished the trail are an inherent clique that is in turn alluring to those that have the desire to attempt their own thru. It is the thru-hiker community itself that glorifies the thru-hike and makes the concept so attractive.

[Starchild]

What about hiker feeds and trail magic? No one has commented on this yet and IMO it adds to the crowding problem.

I touched on it and suggested that we use it to the betterment of the AT experience by providing a managed place to do this. I see this as a amazing positive of the thru hiking expernce, one to be encouraged, one that we need more of in everyday society. It is perhaps the greatest teaching of the AT to 'her children' the ability to receive kindness, something that blocks society from giving.

On the southern end around the start of the circus, there is a hiker feed or trail magic at every paved road crossing. Then you got individuals leaving unattended coolers and food at some off road locations.

While I have not seen much problem with this, I can see the potential for problems with wildlife and unattended food, it just doesn't seem to actually happen in my experience.

I'd say some hikers wouldn't make too far w/o a hot meal waiting on them at the end of a long day. Just seems like some, not all, expect all this while some just say "no" and politely move on. How many people would eat food prepared by strangers at your local shopping mall?

This is my point, the AT allows people (trail angels) the ability to freely give, a basic human need and desire. It teaches the thru hikers that yes it is OK to receive from strangers. To give and to receive is a beautiful thing and makes this world a nicer place. Both have followed me beyond the AT Thru, and it is a wonderful life.

All this is prohibited in National Parks but it's a free for all everywhere else along the trail.

The national parks are some of the most restrictive areas of the AT. It is great to have small sections of them to demonstrate why we do not want the rest of the AT to be like that.

Last May I was camped on the AT near Jones Meadow, where the local hiking club(The Greeneville Hiking Club) was having a hiker feed. A few hikers who came in to the camp near closing time, asked if the feed was still on, then dropped their packs and almost ran the 100 yards out to the feed site. This is just north of Hot Springs and while some may have already given up and gone home, I think that Trail Days in Damascus is where many quit or shortly after, and the party crowd has partied too hard and they leave.
Since I get to see close up use at Jerry's Cabin shelter by going in at least twice a month in the spring to clean up, I could tell that this spring many hikers stayed there and even noticed more area cleared for tent sites. I would clean up the fireplace and fire pit and find them with trash again after spending 2 nights in the surrounding area a few miles away then returning on my way out.

When I worked in the Smokies yes that would be par for the course, regulations do not alter this. But during the thru I feel I learned, and many others have learned that the most efficient way to travel is a way that you don't leave trash behind.

I don't know the solution either but some kind of regulation will be needed to protect the trail from too many hikers. I think that the number of hikers is only a small part of the problem, it's the conduct of some which leads to a lesser quality wilderness experience for others.

It seems like many have suggested more regulations, that saddens me They don't work, I have seen that first hand. They just make it harder for everyone.

[Another Kevin]

The best way of regulating the numbers of hikers north of GSMNP would be the elimination of shelters. I suspect this alone would severely cut back both the numbers starting and the percentage of finishers. After a few nights tenting in the rain many would go home to a warm bed.

Give me a nice snug tent over a leaky and drafty lean-to any day! Especially in wet or windy weather, or when the bugs are out.

Also, did you mean south of GSMNP? I haven't seen much of a problem with overcrowding Up North - except on summer weekends, when the clueless weekenders like me are out.