Baxter State Park AT concerns - Wow

[Tuxedo]

I have read all threads and great work. 2 ways of thinking here well more but from me mainly 2. As a AT hiker thats been to Springer twice and BSP once I have a Hiker thru opinion and as a business man I have an opinion. I have not been a active AT hiker since 10/01/06 so the view of poor etiquette is just not comprehended as I only met 1 fella I'd like to toss off the trail out of I don't know(500+) how many AT hikers. I'd like to think all Rangers, Ridge runners and caretakers liked/loved this stinky, scummy vagabond during my 02'-06' multiple adventures.

I want to play devils advocate a bunch even tho I mainly agree with your over-all points of view. Many have pot-kettle'd the expressed views on rules(drinking mainly) I didn't bring booze to either terminus but I still have broken the rules with my eternal soul, I've been a groomsman 10ish times and have done a few shots/snips of Gods good "grace" in a back room of a Grand Cathedral or humble Chapel many many times. Jesus loves a sinner thankfully and forgives those who attend a Fellowship stretched from GA>ME only to break some rules in the end.

If SNP had a foot traffic issue and forced us to hold up at Rockfish Gap until the number lottery to pass what would NOBO's do? What would the ATC do to prepare the AT between the Priest's and Rockfish Gap? The argument is simple really, It's no longer a trail... it's a Six Flags ride line. Add a DJ while in line to play Free Bird from Skynyrd and the line won't feel as long. Making hikers have credentials to pass sounds to much former Soviet block and no longer the AT Fellowship. In this devil's advocate sees a comparison of data ripe for the picking, now SNP is hardly wilderness compared to BSP I know. SNP has a highway running through it and 4 hwy crossing it so lets say 10,000x the access of BSP. The data within the data of how many thru hikers get to BSP that got a ride to Abol and not walked the 100mi wilderness is probably not even recordable as a stat. So when Mr Bissell says to many on foot and 12 a day is a hard line thou shall not pass number13, well please, walking 250miles of Maine to get to BSP and told a trail rule is complete Moose bull puckie. In the data admitting 60,000 visit by car and 3% by foot has an eyebrow tweek that 4% is crossing the line? BSP has crossed their arms and gives AT the boot in 2019 because of the increased foot traffic, bad attitudes and rules broken. Lighten up Francis 12hiker foot traffic is an easy fix isn't it or is the Six flags line really hard to imagine?

Don't be hate'n on no Wild movie and A Walk in the Woods, all of us have a way of finding out about the AT and I read about it in National Geographic 10page advertisement/documentary for GM(or Jeep) from the mid to late 90's. The wave of N00bs is gonna happen for sure, data shows the sharp increase is really behind anyway the population of this country has tripled since the AT inception and doubled since 1950 first thru hike. Grow or die goes the saying and Mr. Bissell's letter is both a resistance to the growth and a request for help with that growth. BaxterBear is confident that growth is over and BSP is done and ready to rinse clean of the Hiker scum. Increase the rules will increase the assumed liability and increased liability will create more rules. So end the relationship then move the famous sign as the BSP Ranger told me the "take photo here sign" to a different summit and take my stinky, scummy, petulance thru hiker attitude with it ha?! showed you. It's ironic the Southern terminus move was because of urban encroachment and the Northern terminus gets moved for BSP to stay wilderness unlike the rest of the AT.

Mr. Bissell's advocate in me says this; YAAA-GAUUr BOOOMMMBS!!!!! thats right... trouble with a capital MTV. Having a vision of the youngsters turning the AT/BSP into a cross between MTV's The Real World and Jersey Shore has every hikers' Fellowship freedoms in jeopardy. His letter imo reflects in a professional manner this fear, so rolling up his sleeves to get some power of the pen. Now I sadly am not close to qualified to walk in Mr. Bissell's shoes and the view I have of BSP has at most 3% smidgen of a day of a year knowledge to his 60,000 folks yr, times his many years of service to us. For all I know Mr Bissell is the Ranger that referred to the Katahdin sign as "take photo here sign" so I imagine if given the opportunity to share a scotch with him we could figure out all the AT and BSP fixes. I dont live near the trail to roll up my sleeves to help fix or to invite Mr. Bissell for that cheer(unless your in the Chicago burbs area anytime soon). I wish defending the rules breaking was easy but its a perspective in business that has served me well, "there is no such thing as a bad trainee" and the AT is in many ways more then a trail. More then Wilderness more then fellowship, miles, rules and 2 terminus. It's a lesson and even tho a bunch see it as a party many of them have reached out to grow. I feel 15years ago many of the kids didnt have to interact with adults anymore because they could just zone out to a handheld gameboy like device. They have remained a kid longer then the real world allowed me to be a kid but I had the same issue until that moment came in my teens and 20's. Mr. Bissell and BSP has the right to be in the babysitters business and if they so chose not be. Neither a permit system or relocation remedies the root issue.

Mr. Bissell and BSP staff please serve us hiker scum the best you can, teach us when we go astray. Foot traffic is going to increase no matter what movie or book or MTV's Real Trail Shore comes out. There has always been a time where older and experienced folks referred to youth as derogatory generalization. From my perspective and reading the journals of the 70's a large number of war torn Vets and seekers of middle earth created a increased flow of AT hikers and BSP expanded service. Flow increased again when Bill Bryson's book came out and most of those services expanded more. Since I've known of the trail this country has increased 11% in population over 30mil folks. Is the data Mr. Bissell shows really that lopsided to the point of BSP can't handle it when about 200mil in population has been added to the country since Katahdin became the northern summit. History is repeating for BSP and I speculate that BSP Directors, Board members and Rangers faced this before in the 50's-80's and 90's-now and found a way for me to enjoy BSP in 06' sobo(nobo up to Rangley, ME in 03' and left the trail for a knee injury). I think you can find a way again so that I can reunite with your "take photo here sign" in 2020 and beyond.

[dangerdave]

Ugh! This is all very discouraging...but not disconcerting. I'm not changing my plans because of a bunch of idiots. I'm starting my thru when I want to! HYOH, right! If it means I'm in the middle of the bubble, then I'll have a chance to educate some ignorance along the way. How can we teach these hikers to respect the land if we are not there? How can we advise them to follow the rules if we are willing to fudge them ourselves.

I think it's a terrible double standard to insist that everyone follow LNT to the letter (follow the rules), then shrug our shoulders at discrete public drinking in BSP (break the rules). This thing is a PR nightmare. We need experienced, driven, soulful, and thoughtful representatives---and lots of them---on the AT doing damage control. If all of the people who care about the AT avoid the AT, it is doomed.

I'm just sorry I waited too long to thru hike this awesome trail. I'll give it my best, though, even in the face of this negativity.

[Tipi Walter]

I find it slightly insane that people would want to destroy the wilderness they want to visit by paving a road for their wheelchair. I am all for as much access as possible for the handicapped but at some point it's just not realistic and feasible to do without immense cost and destruction to the environment.

When I was a child and teen I wanted nothing more than to play pro baseball with the Red Sox. Guess what, I was not good enough so I never was able to do so. I did not demand that the standard of pro ball be reduced so I could play. I realized life is what it is, and it's often not fair. So I moved on with my life and found something else. I did not hold onto my bitterness.

Totally agree with this post. I also thought of a sports analogy---Suppose I want to/I must participate in pro football and so I demand that the NFL let people over 60 years of age the opportunity to play. It's absurd but they agree to it. I'm killed in the first quarter. Is age a handicap? Of course it is.

[Tipi Walter]

In the data admitting 60,000 visit by car and 3% by foot has an eyebrow tweek that 4% is crossing the line? BSP has crossed their arms and gives AT the boot in 2019 because of the increased foot traffic, bad attitudes and rules broken. Lighten up Francis 12hiker foot traffic is an easy fix isn't it or is the Six flags line really hard to imagine?

BaxterBear is confident that growth is over and BSP is done and ready to rinse clean of the Hiker scum. Increase the rules will increase the assumed liability and increased liability will create more rules. So end the relationship then move the famous sign as the BSP Ranger told me the "take photo here sign" to a different summit and take my stinky, scummy, petulance thru hiker attitude with it ha?! showed you. It's ironic the Southern terminus move was because of urban encroachment and the Northern terminus gets moved for BSP to stay wilderness unlike the rest of the AT.

Mr. Bissell and BSP staff please serve us hiker scum the best you can, teach us when we go astray. Foot traffic is going to increase no matter what movie or book or MTV's Real Trail Shore comes out.

3% of 63,000 is 1,890 hikers. This foot propelled onslaught must be terrifying to the Baxter Tent Police. Never mind the 61,000 rolling couch potatoes who enter the Park and do untold damage with noise pollution, outhouses, exhaust stink and mere gawking, the worst behavior of all.

Probably the worst attitudes seen in Baxter are the driving "campers" pulling in 44 foot RVs---they must be grim-faced indeed. And when they fire up their generators we all pay.

Picking on hikers and backpackers is apparently the current favored activity for the Tent Police nowadays, just look at the GSMNP rules restricting backpackers solely (and not dayhikers). We must pay $4 a night and tell the honchos where we will be camping every night and make a reservation for each night. Meanwhile 10 million visitors come in on rolling couches and pay nothing.

Is there a $20 car entrance fee? Heck no. Will the TN legislature change this and begin a car fee? Heck no. So let's pick on those who backpack. Ergo let's study the Baxter problem. Does Baxter have a car entrance fee just to enter for a dayhike and then leave? How can 1,890 backpackers be such a problem and not the 61,000 others?

I hope when Baxter institutes a backpacker quota they do the same and drop the 61,000 number down to 10,000. Let's limit all humans, both rolling and on foot.

[full conditions]

Ugh! This is all very discouraging...but not disconcerting. I'm not changing my plans because of a bunch of idiots. I'm starting my thru when I want to! HYOH, right! If it means I'm in the middle of the bubble, then I'll have a chance to educate some ignorance along the way. How can we teach these hikers to respect the land if we are not there? How can we advise them to follow the rules if we are willing to fudge them ourselves.

I think it's a terrible double standard to insist that everyone follow LNT to the letter (follow the rules), then shrug our shoulders at discrete public drinking in BSP (break the rules). This thing is a PR nightmare. We need experienced, driven, soulful, and thoughtful representatives---and lots of them---on the AT doing damage control. If all of the people who care about the AT avoid the AT, it is doomed.

I'm just sorry I waited too long to thru hike this awesome trail. I'll give it my best, though, even in the face of this negativity.

DD - I'm sure you are a good guy and a very thoughtful hiker. You sure sound like someone any one of us would feel lucky to hike with. But here's the problem - according to the ATC's count, better than 2,500 people left Springer last year ostensibly headed for Maine, with the vast, vast majority of them leaving between March 1 and May 1. Now that comes out to an average of about 42 thru hikers per day signing in on the summit. Some days its close to a hundred. So most of us think "well....a hundred people stretched out over several miles isnt so bad". But the impact is really felt at all those shelters and campsites. When scores of campers show up at one of these destinations, things happen in a fairly predictable way - first arrivals stake out their spots in the shelter until the shelter fills up (first 8 - 10 folks) then the tenters head for the obvious tent pads or cleared sites. The later arrivals show up, drop their packs and go hunting up something suitable. Naturally, these folks want something reasonably private, so they head off into the woods and set up their tents (being careful to be as LNT as they can be), but, of course they cant help but trample the herbaceous vegetation and as more and more campers show up the tent sites grow deeper and deeper into the surrounding woods. It gets worse. All those campers using and reusing the same campsites night after night, collect water, cook dinner, stretch their hammocks, dig their holes, poop, and wear more and more trails through the woods. This scenario is played out night after night for better than 60 days every year for the last decade and is likely to get much worse this year.

My point is that its not just bad hikers - its the sheer volume of hikers. You dont have to be one of them. You can do an awesome thru hike of your own creation sans mob. There are a number of alternate hikes described on the ATC's website, any one of which sounds to me way more appealing than the same ole same ole. Instead of becoming just another member of the horde, you can do something unique and special and if you're worried about being too alone, anymore the trail gets plenty of traffic year round just about everywhere. I think its worth considering.

[Don H]

First BaxterBear made this comment in his post #101: "Trust me, they are dead serious on this. I know for a fact that they are ready to ban the AT from Baxter by 2019 if massive changes are not implemented. And they will not hesitate for one second.

And then this quote from Tuxedo:

BSP has crossed their arms and gives AT the boot in 2019 because of the increased foot traffic, bad attitudes and rules broken.

I'd like a source for this date of 2019 for BSP ending their agreement with the AT. Anyone?

[RED-DOG]

Sounds like the ATC and the AMC and US Government needs to collaborate and come up with an Alternate Northern Terminus, that would be nice to have either way, WHOOPS my bad I mean AMC and the US Government since the ATC don't have any authority! that's probably why the ATC is being so silent about this issue, I would think since the ATC claims to be the trail stewards they would be a little more outspoken about such an Issue maybe it's best they kept quite.

[rocketsocks]

DD - I'm sure you are a good guy and a very thoughtful hiker. You sure sound like someone any one of us would feel lucky to hike with. But here's the problem - according to the ATC's count, better than 2,500 people left Springer last year ostensibly headed for Maine, with the vast, vast majority of them leaving between March 1 and May 1. Now that comes out to an average of about 42 thru hikers per day signing in on the summit. Some days its close to a hundred. So most of us think "well....a hundred people stretched out over several miles isnt so bad". But the impact is really felt at all those shelters and campsites. When scores of campers show up at one of these destinations, things happen in a fairly predictable way - first arrivals stake out their spots in the shelter until the shelter fills up (first 8 - 10 folks) then the tenters head for the obvious tent pads or cleared sites. The later arrivals show up, drop their packs and go hunting up something suitable. Naturally, these folks want something reasonably private, so they head off into the woods and set up their tents (being careful to be as LNT as they can be), but, of course they cant help but trample the herbaceous vegetation and as more and more campers show up the tent sites grow deeper and deeper into the surrounding woods. It gets worse. All those campers using and reusing the same campsites night after night, collect water, cook dinner, stretch their hammocks, dig their holes, poop, and wear more and more trails through the woods. This scenario is played out night after night for better than 60 days every year for the last decade and is likely to get much worse this year.

My point is that its not just bad hikers - its the sheer volume of hikers. You dont have to be one of them. You can do an awesome thru hike of your own creation sans mob. There are a number of alternate hikes described on the ATC's website, any one of which sounds to me way more appealing than the same ole same ole. Instead of becoming just another member of the horde, you can do something unique and special and if you're worried about being too alone, anymore the trail gets plenty of traffic year round just about everywhere. I think its worth considering.

what if all hikers between certain dates slept...ROT "Right on Trail" literally...it would spare the surrounding areas, keeping tents on an already compacted tread way.

[Malto]

what if all hikers between certain dates slept...ROT "Right on Trail" literally...it would spare the surrounding areas, keeping tents on an already compacted tread way.

Then I would be stepping on them in the morning and evening.

[rocketsocks]

Then I would be stepping on them in the morning and evening.

I never said it was a perfect plan

[rocketsocks]

incidentally, who has the right of way in such a case?

[dangerdave]

My point is that its not just bad hikers - its the sheer volume of hikers. You dont have to be one of them. You can do an awesome thru hike of your own creation sans mob. There are a number of alternate hikes described on the ATC's website, any one of which sounds to me way more appealing than the same ole same ole. Instead of becoming just another member of the horde, you can do something unique and special and if you're worried about being too alone, anymore the trail gets plenty of traffic year round just about everywhere. I think its worth considering.

Thank you for your kind words. In spite of the recent AT concerns/panic, it has been fairly civil here lately on WB. And you make very good points. I see what you are saying, and you paint a dismal picture of which I want no part. There are two avenues of thought, it seems: 1) the solution is to disburse the bubble to less impact the forest. And I think you are right in that even conscientious AT hikers practicing their best LNT methods cannot help but vastly impact the area they pass through, in these numbers. 2) Education; teaching better employment of LNT to those hiking in the bubble. #2 is trumped by #1. At some point the numbers overrun the best methods.

The question becomes, would I better serve the forests by choosing an alternative thru, or by helping to mitigate damage within the bubble? I do live closer to Harper's Ferry than any other point on the trail, so beginning there would be logistically easier. I am new to long distance hiking, so I have no glorified view of an unbroken NOBO hike. A SOBO, or flip-flop would be just fine with me.

You have given me food for thought. I want to do my part to stem the tide of destruction and attitude for the forest and it's hikers. Maybe I'm not experienced enough to teach the bubble. I'll be thinking this over as the new world begins, and taking your advice in thought.

Thank you.

[Lone Wolf]

I have read all threads and great work. 2 ways of thinking here well more but from me mainly 2. As a AT hiker thats been to Springer twice and BSP once I have a Hiker thru opinion and as a business man I have an opinion. I have not been a active AT hiker since 10/01/06 so the view of poor etiquette is just not comprehended as I only met 1 fella I'd like to toss off the trail out of I don't know(500+) how many AT hikers. I'd like to think all Rangers, Ridge runners and caretakers liked/loved this stinky, scummy vagabond during my 02'-06' multiple adventures.

I want to play devils advocate a bunch even tho I mainly agree with your over-all points of view. Many have pot-kettle'd the expressed views on rules(drinking mainly) I didn't bring booze to either terminus but I still have broken the rules with my eternal soul, I've been a groomsman 10ish times and have done a few shots/snips of Gods good "grace" in a back room of a Grand Cathedral or humble Chapel many many times. Jesus loves a sinner thankfully and forgives those who attend a Fellowship stretched from GA>ME only to break some rules in the end.

If SNP had a foot traffic issue and forced us to hold up at Rockfish Gap until the number lottery to pass what would NOBO's do? What would the ATC do to prepare the AT between the Priest's and Rockfish Gap? The argument is simple really, It's no longer a trail... it's a Six Flags ride line. Add a DJ while in line to play Free Bird from Skynyrd and the line won't feel as long. Making hikers have credentials to pass sounds to much former Soviet block and no longer the AT Fellowship. In this devil's advocate sees a comparison of data ripe for the picking, now SNP is hardly wilderness compared to BSP I know. SNP has a highway running through it and 4 hwy crossing it so lets say 10,000x the access of BSP. The data within the data of how many thru hikers get to BSP that got a ride to Abol and not walked the 100mi wilderness is probably not even recordable as a stat. So when Mr Bissell says to many on foot and 12 a day is a hard line thou shall not pass number13, well please, walking 250miles of Maine to get to BSP and told a trail rule is complete Moose bull puckie. In the data admitting 60,000 visit by car and 3% by foot has an eyebrow tweek that 4% is crossing the line? BSP has crossed their arms and gives AT the boot in 2019 because of the increased foot traffic, bad attitudes and rules broken. Lighten up Francis 12hiker foot traffic is an easy fix isn't it or is the Six flags line really hard to imagine?

Don't be hate'n on no Wild movie and A Walk in the Woods, all of us have a way of finding out about the AT and I read about it in National Geographic 10page advertisement/documentary for GM(or Jeep) from the mid to late 90's. The wave of N00bs is gonna happen for sure, data shows the sharp increase is really behind anyway the population of this country has tripled since the AT inception and doubled since 1950 first thru hike. Grow or die goes the saying and Mr. Bissell's letter is both a resistance to the growth and a request for help with that growth. BaxterBear is confident that growth is over and BSP is done and ready to rinse clean of the Hiker scum. Increase the rules will increase the assumed liability and increased liability will create more rules. So end the relationship then move the famous sign as the BSP Ranger told me the "take photo here sign" to a different summit and take my stinky, scummy, petulance thru hiker attitude with it ha?! showed you. It's ironic the Southern terminus move was because of urban encroachment and the Northern terminus gets moved for BSP to stay wilderness unlike the rest of the AT.

Mr. Bissell's advocate in me says this; YAAA-GAUUr BOOOMMMBS!!!!! thats right... trouble with a capital MTV. Having a vision of the youngsters turning the AT/BSP into a cross between MTV's The Real World and Jersey Shore has every hikers' Fellowship freedoms in jeopardy. His letter imo reflects in a professional manner this fear, so rolling up his sleeves to get some power of the pen. Now I sadly am not close to qualified to walk in Mr. Bissell's shoes and the view I have of BSP has at most 3% smidgen of a day of a year knowledge to his 60,000 folks yr, times his many years of service to us. For all I know Mr Bissell is the Ranger that referred to the Katahdin sign as "take photo here sign" so I imagine if given the opportunity to share a scotch with him we could figure out all the AT and BSP fixes. I dont live near the trail to roll up my sleeves to help fix or to invite Mr. Bissell for that cheer(unless your in the Chicago burbs area anytime soon). I wish defending the rules breaking was easy but its a perspective in business that has served me well, "there is no such thing as a bad trainee" and the AT is in many ways more then a trail. More then Wilderness more then fellowship, miles, rules and 2 terminus. It's a lesson and even tho a bunch see it as a party many of them have reached out to grow. I feel 15years ago many of the kids didnt have to interact with adults anymore because they could just zone out to a handheld gameboy like device. They have remained a kid longer then the real world allowed me to be a kid but I had the same issue until that moment came in my teens and 20's. Mr. Bissell and BSP has the right to be in the babysitters business and if they so chose not be. Neither a permit system or relocation remedies the root issue.

Mr. Bissell and BSP staff please serve us hiker scum the best you can, teach us when we go astray. Foot traffic is going to increase no matter what movie or book or MTV's Real Trail Shore comes out. There has always been a time where older and experienced folks referred to youth as derogatory generalization. From my perspective and reading the journals of the 70's a large number of war torn Vets and seekers of middle earth created a increased flow of AT hikers and BSP expanded service. Flow increased again when Bill Bryson's book came out and most of those services expanded more. Since I've known of the trail this country has increased 11% in population over 30mil folks. Is the data Mr. Bissell shows really that lopsided to the point of BSP can't handle it when about 200mil in population has been added to the country since Katahdin became the northern summit. History is repeating for BSP and I speculate that BSP Directors, Board members and Rangers faced this before in the 50's-80's and 90's-now and found a way for me to enjoy BSP in 06' sobo(nobo up to Rangley, ME in 03' and left the trail for a knee injury). I think you can find a way again so that I can reunite with your "take photo here sign" in 2020 and beyond.

huh?.........

[Malto]

huh?.........

What part didn't you understand? Was it the 58th paragraph?

[Tuxedo]

What part didn't you understand? Was it the 58th paragraph?

Sorry Nova op-111.jpg
My worry is mainly about this paragraph in the letter, the subject of my novella in seeing a BSP Director basically saying it's over the numbers are to high. I cry BS

[egilbe]

Sorry Nova op-111.jpg
My worry is mainly about this paragraph in the letter, the subject of my novella in seeing a BSP Director basically saying it's over the numbers are to high. I cry BS

BSP is a wilderness area. The intent was to keep it as free from man as possible. Its the forest creatures homes and mankind is trespassing. BSP limits the number of people who can enter the park on any given day. The one thing they can't control is the foot traffic coming from Abol Bridge. It is definitely not like Acadia National Park where the park service bends over backwards to destroy any wilderness experience.

I have to admit, I drank a beer when I finally climbed Katahdin the first time, too. The through hikers who were drinking the champagne on the summit were amusing, but not outwardly crazy.

I have a feeling TipiWalter has never been to BSP. He describes National Parks very well, but not BSP. There is no way anyone is driving a 44 camper on those narrow, winding roads

[Slo-go'en]

One of the reasons so many made it to Baxter this year was the nice weather. There weren't many nasty storms in the spring, there weren't any blistering heatwaves in the summer and it was the best fall in a long time. Maybe the weather next year won't be so nice. We can hope

[Tipi Walter]

BSP is a wilderness area. The intent was to keep it as free from man as possible. Its the forest creatures homes and mankind is trespassing. BSP limits the number of people who can enter the park on any given day. The one thing they can't control is the foot traffic coming from Abol Bridge. It is definitely not like Acadia National Park where the park service bends over backwards to destroy any wilderness experience.

I have to admit, I drank a beer when I finally climbed Katahdin the first time, too. The through hikers who were drinking the champagne on the summit were amusing, but not outwardly crazy.

I have a feeling TipiWalter has never been to BSP. He describes National Parks very well, but not BSP. There is no way anyone is driving a 44 camper on those narrow, winding roads

Let me repeat this rule quote on the Baxter website---
5. VEHICLES AND TRANSPORTATION

5.1. No vehicle over nine (9) feet high, seven (7) feet wide, or 22 feet long for a single vehicle or 44 feet long for combined units may enter the Park. Oversize units may be authorized to use the Park road system by special use permit, subject to conditions set by the Director. The Director may restrict the use of vehicles by persons without camping reservations.

In addition, Baxter IS NOT a wilderness area in the sense that it has been so designated by Congress. There are no drivable roads in wilderness areas. Baxter has many roads and many car campgrounds, a big no-no in wilderness areas.

[egilbe]

Let me repeat this rule quote on the Baxter website---
5. VEHICLES AND TRANSPORTATION

5.1. No vehicle over nine (9) feet high, seven (7) feet wide, or 22 feet long for a single vehicle or 44 feet long for combined units may enter the Park. Oversize units may be authorized to use the Park road system by special use permit, subject to conditions set by the Director. The Director may restrict the use of vehicles by persons without camping reservations.

In addition, Baxter IS NOT a wilderness area in the sense that it has been so designated by Congress. There are no drivable roads in wilderness areas. Baxter has many roads and many car campgrounds, a big no-no in wilderness areas.

Oh, you meant to say a 22 foot long vehicle with trailer then?

Does it have to be designated by Congress to make it a wilderness area? So those areas in other countries that are not designated wilderness, those are not wilderness areas because congress, who has no authority there, didn't designate them as such?

If you are talking about that dirt trail that wanders around boulders, rocks and streams on the perimeter of the park, if you are calling that a road, it just affirms my belief that you have never been to BSP.

[MuddyWaters]

One of the reasons so many made it to Baxter this year was the nice weather. There weren't many nasty storms in the spring, there weren't any blistering heatwaves in the summer and it was the best fall in a long time. Maybe the weather next year won't be so nice. We can hope

i think lighter gear and awareness of it is responsible for increasing trend of higher completion rates over time. this, coupled with increasing starts is contributing.