Baxter State Park AT concerns - Wow

[Dogwood]

Very nice last few posts Dangerdave and the last one from Full Conditions. There's the conscientiousness -ie; greater informed solution minded awareness -that changes things. Nicely done fellas.

[MuddyWaters]

Oh, you meant to say a 22 foot long vehicle with trailer then?

Does it have to be designated by Congress to make it a wilderness area? So those areas in other countries that are not designated wilderness, those are not wilderness areas because congress, who has no authority there, didn't designate them as such?

If you are talking about that dirt trail that wanders around boulders, rocks and streams on the perimeter of the park, if you are calling that a road, it just affirms my belief that you have never been to BSP.

the customary definition of wilderness, is no mechanized means of transport or any form of internal combustion engine allowed. this is pretty much universal. By definition, there are no roads into wilderness areas that are open to traffic.

[rickb]

BSP is a wilderness area. The intent was to keep it as free from man as possible. Its the forest creatures homes and mankind is trespassing.

Take note of how Baxter qualified these noble intentions, as memorialized in his own words and as incorporated in the enabling statutes of the Maine State Legislature:

This intent must be interpreted so as not to separate this park from the people to whom it was given; but rather seek to have it enjoyed and "used to the fullest extent but in the right unspoiled manner." [1971, c. 477, §1(NEW).]

[Tipi Walter]

Oh, you meant to say a 22 foot long vehicle with trailer then?

Does it have to be designated by Congress to make it a wilderness area? So those areas in other countries that are not designated wilderness, those are not wilderness areas because congress, who has no authority there, didn't designate them as such?

If you are talking about that dirt trail that wanders around boulders, rocks and streams on the perimeter of the park, if you are calling that a road, it just affirms my belief that you have never been to BSP.

Who needs to go to Baxter to be able to study a map of the place? And on the map are several roads leading to 10 different car campgrounds, or close to 10. The brown line is a paved road passing thru the Park and not a dirt trail.

[Tipi Walter]

the customary definition of wilderness, is no mechanized means of transport or any form of internal combustion engine allowed. this is pretty much universal. By definition, there are no roads into wilderness areas that are open to traffic.

My point all along.

[egilbe]

If by paved, you meant dirt, then yes. There is one road the links the 10 campgrounds. Its called the Tote road. Its a seasonal "road" thats closed in the spring, winter and fall. You can drive snowmobiles on that track in the winter time, but its not maintained. Its an old logging road that predates the formation of the park, back when Great Northern Paper owned the property. That is ONE road. And it is not paved. Black lines mean the roads are paved. You notice that the black lines end at the park's boundry?

[soilman]

Who needs to go to Baxter to be able to study a map of the place? And on the map are several roads leading to 10 different car campgrounds, or close to 10. The brown line is a paved road passing thru the Park and not a dirt trail.

The brown line is a gravel road. The paved road ends at the gate house in the south half of the park. Can't speak to the north entrance since I have never been thru there. I drove to Roaring Brook in October on gravel road. In fact passed a road grader on the way back.

[Tipi Walter]

Oops, see my mistake. Brown looked like black. But cars and RVs in the summer and snowmobiles in the winter doesn't sound much like a wilderness.

Of course I get overly emotional when I'm in a "wilderness" and hear human-generated engine noise. It's prolific here in the Southeast mountains of NC and TN and VA---think roaring and racing muffler-less Harleys on all the scenic valley roads. Throw in a couple thousand overhead jets. Add a couple Army helicopters. It's nonstop.

THANKS BE TO GOD WE DO NOT HAVE SNOWMOBILES TOO.

[egilbe]

BSP is very peaceful, summer or Winter. No noise, you may run into another hiker on the trail, but its not the Smokey Mountains at all. I don't think I've ever seen an aircraft flying overhead. Traffic on the road stops at dark. I've walked the road at night and never see anyone. During the day, the traffic isn't noticeable, unless you meet another car and you both are looking for a wide spot in the road so you can get by each other. On the weekends, you'll see more people on the summit, then you will hiking the trails surrounding Katahdin.

[FarmerChef]

I've now read all of this thread and the other Springer thread and boy there is lots of spirited and well-thought out points of view. To add in my own two cents: the root of the problem is attitude-informed behavior on the part of thru hikers. Fix this and you've sorted the whole problem out but that is a difficult row to hoe as it goes incredibly counter-culture in these times to suggest anything other than "do as you please, we're all winners." As to the issue at the Birches, I would be in favor of eliminating the free stay, paying a fee and having my access to the park controlled like everyone else who enjoys the park. Treat me no differently. If I break the rules, enforce them and make an example out of me so others will be encouraged to take a different tack in order to escape the inevitable consequences for their actions. Of course doing that on limited resources is difficult. I would think that charging thru's to stay at the Birches or other available campsites would help alleviate the financial burden of supplying additional personnel to assist with enforcement. Without enforcement there will be no change in behavior at BSP.

Again, from my perspective, changing the culture of the AT community is both the responsibility of all of us as individuals but also the shared responsibility of the ATC. I'm a bit inspired by Tipi's analogies and reference to the obesity epidemic in America so let me play on this for a moment. Is it the marketing machines of the fast-food, beverage and snack/processed foods industries fault that a person is pre-diabetic, obese (or at least over-weight in the medical sense of the term) and at high risk for heart disease, stroke and hypertension (among others)? Or is it my fault for pulling the trigger on the super-size fries, large root beer and baconator with the bag of chips and Twinkies later as a snack? I believe the answer is...both. And that's why I believe the ATC needs to play the role of the benevolent marketing agency who's purpose is not to entice us to consume more but to conserve more. I don't believe this requires onerous overarching fees, permits or the like just as BurgerKing doesn't charge us a fee to enter the restaurant - we WANT the flame-broiled Whopper With Cheese and SatisFries (30% less fat than...oh wait, not our fries, McDonald's fries...now that's marketing). The ATC needs to entice us with the same slick marketing tactics of big business to Leave No Trace and preserve the environment that makes the trail what it is meant to be.

But we too must change our own consumerism from looking at the trail as yet one more thing to consume. I don't hike the trail (section-hiker) because I want to consume the trail, I want to experience what the trail has to give and teach me through both the pain and the pleasure of self-sustained living apart from the creature comforts of a highly-connected and consumption-driven society. But I believe that the culture of the thru-hiker as glorified through trail feeds, special privileges (like work-for-stay at the huts in the Whites), and glorified-speech which sets them apart as "above" the section-hiker or day hiker all contribute to a holier-than-thou or at least "look-at-me" culture among some thru hikers that is bent on "consuming" the trail experience for entirely their own benefit. Is it, then, a viable solution to de-glorify the thru hike and let it just be a long hike of [insert reason here]? I believe the current hiking culture combined with the FB, like-me generation's need for constant affirmation is exacerbating the issue to the level we see and will continue to do so until our culture at large wises up to the pitfalls of this approach.

Let me be clear that I do not consider all thru hikers to be like this. The worst was hiking this past spring, SOBO, from Fontana to Springer. Sheer masses of green thrus who hadn't seen anything yet but many who believed they had it all figured out and frequently hiked their own hike to the detriment of the environment. The trail down there looked awful anywhere close to tenting or shelter sites. Conversely, on our NOBO hikes in the summer up north, we've hiked with the battle-hardened and weary but strong thrus who tested their mettle through many rainy days, snowy climbs, hot, roasting days and whatever else. By then, most of the partiers were gone anyway. Most, but not all. For whatever reason, we never encountered big bubbles of young people. Perhaps it was the timing, I don't know but I do tend to agree with Lone Wolf and others that the problem seems most acute (but not limited to) the 20 somethings and under for the reasons stated above.

The trail exists as wonderfully dynamic entity and must grow in some ways to accommodate the sheer-growth of humans and it's impact on the environment. But it must be maintained in a way that assures the preservation of that environment even if it must require that the use of it is curtailed so as not to so deplete it that there is no point in enjoying it in the first place. Preaching to the choir - I know.

[Tuxedo]

The trail exists as wonderfully dynamic entity and must grow in some ways to accommodate the sheer-growth of humans and it's impact on the environment. But it must be maintained in a way that assures the preservation of that environment even if it must require that the use of it is curtailed so as not to so deplete it that there is no point in enjoying it in the first place. Preaching to the choir - I know.

Amen

Since 1950 both Canada and US have more then doubled in population. I know Mr. Bissell has a better view of this situation but the claim to many have come and BSP can't expand services I find hard to believe. About 10yrs ago I read a document about Baxter's need for 70's influx campers and hikers and although worries of wilderness mentioned the bigger concern was securing bonds for development and service expansion. This letter Mr. Bissell seems done to any expansion and appears to chose isolationism from hikers and the AT.

I think Mr. Bissell is right to address the rule breakers and issues surrounding long distance hikers needs draining valuable time and resources. The data he shows us falls way short of being a threat to wilderness compared to 64k travelers and remove the AT from BSP.

[Dogwood]

Calm, sane, rational, considering recap Farmer Chef

[Dogwood]

Duh. I just realized I've been referring to the letter from BSP as coming from Mr Tipton. It's addressed to Mr Ron Tipton of the ATC and Wendy Janssen of the Appalachian Park Service. yada yada ya.

[rocketsocks]

Duh. I just realized I've been referring to the letter from BSP as coming from Mr Tipton. It's addressed to Mr Ron Tipton of the ATC and Wendy Janssen of the Appalachian Park Service. yada yada ya.

You'll have that.

[lemon b]

Hiked it 4 times. But the real appeal to me in that area is the West Branch. Along the Golden Road there are countless places to camp and fish. Legally ! The Rangers are concerned with following the game laws and common sense LNT. Never met one who was anything but pleasant.
West Branch in Sept. is prime time to fly fish for Landlocked Salmon. First Thru hikers I ever met were on the Golden road during Fly Fishing Season. Come to think of it I do believe the AT used to cross the Golden Road West of where the current trail is located. If your a fly fisherman the attraction up there is going to turn to fishing. Huge native brook trout population and some of the best tasting salmon on earth. Can even remember having my fly's checked to make sure I hadn't wrapped on lead to make them go deeper quicker. Definite God Country and the Rangers up there have kept the West Branch a prime fishing river for years. The vast majority of the times I've been in that area all my time has been spent tossing fly's.

[Sly]

As to the issue at the Birches, I would be in favor of eliminating the free stay, paying a fee and having my access to the park controlled like everyone else who enjoys the park. Treat me no differently. If I break the rules, enforce them and make an example out of me so others will be encouraged to take a different tack in order to escape the inevitable consequences for their actions. Of course doing that on limited resources is difficult. I would think that charging thru's to stay at the Birches or other available campsites would help alleviate the financial burden of supplying additional personnel to assist with enforcement. Without enforcement there will be no change in behavior at BSP.

That's partly the problem, there is no free stay at the Birches. It supposed to be $10 per night, up to 12, one night only. Hikers are coming in late, past capacity and not paying. Beyond that they're camping illegally on the west bank or failing to register for a lean-to at KSC ($30 for 4)

[Tipi Walter]

That's partly the problem, there is no free stay at the Birches. It supposed to be $10 per night, up to 12, one night only. Hikers are coming in late, past capacity and not paying. Beyond that they're camping illegally on the west bank or failing to register for a lean-to at KSC ($30 for 4)

I sincerely wonder if old man Percival Baxter stipulated that hikers would be paying cash money to camp or hike in the Park. Question---Is there a entry fee for every car coming into the Park on the Tote Road?? Anyway, he thought---

"Governor Baxter saw the park as a place where people had to walk to get close to nature, so vehicle access is limited to unpaved entry roads to get to eight campgrounds and the 215 miles of hiking trails. There are two backcountry campgrounds miles from a road. Around 60,000 people visit the park during the summer, but the park is open year-round and campers and climbers even take on Katahdin in winter."

Also----

"Limited snowmobiling is allowed on the 46-mile Park Tote Road that links the south gate at Togue Pond and the Matagamon Gate at the north. Snowmobiling was granted after Baxter's death and remains controversial, even today."

From---
http://freepressonline.com/main.asp?...rticleID=21375

[Sly]

-I sincerely wonder if old man Percival Baxter stipulated that hikers would be paying cash money to camp or hike in the Park Is there a entry fee for every car coming into the Park on the Tote Road??

Not for Maine residents, but they still have to pay camping fees.

http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....ation/fees.htm

[Tipi Walter]

Not for Maine residents, but they still have to pay camping fees.

http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....ation/fees.htm

Thanks for this sobering link. I can see a typical 20 day winter backpacking trip into Baxter would cost me around $300 just for camping. And in the summer? $400. This can't be right can it???

If there are 215 miles of hiking trails, can I go in to backpack and camp wherever I want or do I need a permit/reservation for every night with a fee?

[TJ aka Teej]

Tipi, the answers to your questions are in the "sobering" link.
There is a fee for camping.