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  1. #21
    Registered User Joe Rogowski's Avatar
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    Lent was supposed to be leave no trace (lnt)

  2. #22

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    To get back to the OP, I will comment that as a section hiker, I scheduled my sections to avoid the bubble. In particular I and a friend started April 1st and headed south from the south gate of SNP one year. We went for four weeks to somewhere around Atkins before meeting the lead edge of the bubble. It was colder than we expected but a 20 degree bag was adequate along with some evening campfires. I had done the section from Southern PA to the north gate of SNP the fall before. Based on the conditions I observed that year starting in southern PA and heading south would be viable as the elevation is relatively low until you hit SNP. It will be cold and there is a ski area up on the ridge so it will be cold and windy. SNP has occasionally gotten significant spring snow so this is in no way a spring hike but the conditions wouldn't be a heck of a lot different than the Springer area.

    One plus starting up north is that firewood is everywhere after the winter. The campsites and shelter were littered with wood and were not picked clean. I had fires to warm up but as much to clean up the site.

    We ended up doing Erwin to Fontanna after the bubble in late April early May. We actually had snow on Roan one morning.

    IMHO Except for tradition, the alternative options that ATC has published have a lot of good points and for those willing to do some flips, the lack of the bubble early in the hike is a major plus.

  3. #23

    Default Flip-Flop Kick Off in Harpers Ferry May 2

    I love this discussion!

    ATC is, in fact, hosting a Thru-Hiker Flip-Flop Kick Off in Harpers Ferry on Saturday, May 2. The goal is to promote and celebrate flip-flopping, provide information from those who've done it, and support the people who may choose to attempt it at this time.

    Any flip-flop that involves a start other than the southern end of the Trail between March 1 and April 15 will help disperse use. The start that involves Harpers Ferry going north in many ways has a lot going for it. In addition to all the things that are on ATC's website at appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-section-hiking/when-where-to-start, starting in Harpers Ferry at the end of April through mid-May means you won't have much competition for work-for-stay in the Whites, and won't have to worry about reservations or space at Baxter State Park. Flip-floppers who have walked at least 100 miles continuously on the A.T. through the wilderness are eligible to use The Birches Campsites at Baxter (for 100+mile northbound A.T. hikers or 100+ miles IAT sobos only) are exempt from needing a campsite reservation. Ones who arrive early in the thru-hiker season (as flip-floppers who leave HF late April or early May would) don't have to worry about competition for space.

    While it's true that there are times that concentrating use can be helpful, there is a tipping point when greater numbers of people causes all sorts of detrimental consequences, like campsite expansion, full privies, noise levels and social impacts. There is just a different dynamic when there are large numbers of people. It's also better for hostel, towns and other businesses to have a longer season with a more even flow of hikers, than to have huge numbers of hikers in short bursts.

    Laurie P.
    ATC
    Last edited by Lauriep; 12-19-2014 at 12:29. Reason: clarity: details about The Birches campsite

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Do what works for you-

    Challenge each other to haul out the most trash, spend the least number of nights in a shelter, educate the most hikers. Be an ambassador for the trail and a good citizen in the towns the trail passes through. Learn and follow the regulations of each park you visit, realize you are a guest
    Actually, spend the MOST nights in a shelter. Cram it full.

    The problem isn't that the shelters are there, the problem is their not big enough to house everyone. That forces people to create more and more tenting spots, impacting a larger and larger area around the shelter or the vicinity. Tents have a huge impact on the soil under and around them and since there are a limited number of "good" tent sites, these spots get used over and over again compounding the impact. 20, 30 or 40 people all using tents takes up a lot of space. This is really what the issue of too many people all staring at the same time is all about.

    But everything else Bill said is spot on.
    Follow slogoen on Instagram.

  5. #25

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    So here are some of the alternate itineraries suggested by the ATC on their website:
    ALTERNATIVE THRU-HIKE ITINERARIES

    These seven scenarios outline possible variations from the typical Georgia-to-Maine thru-hike. Sample itineraries are generally designed for a six and one-half month hike. This allows for the average thru-hike time of six months and two weeks for travel and a little extra time off between legs of the journey. Sample itineraries are designed to optimize terrain, weather, and crowd avoidance. Most also provide opportunities for companionship and camaraderie.HEAD-START: APRIL

    Damascus, Va. north to Katahdin; Damascus south to Springer Mountain.Sample itinerary: Start in Damascus mid-April, hike north to climb Katahdin mid-September; resume hiking south third week of September, finish on Springer Mountain beginning of November.

    • Start ahead of crowds of thru-hikers, but be assured of companionship from early hikers.
    • Be prepared for snow across the Mt. Rogers highlands (a 26-mile high-elevation stretch that starts about 17 miles north of Damascus).
    • Do not expect to keep up with the pace of thru-hikers who started in Georgia; allow yourself 3-6 weeks to get in optimal shape.
    • Start out in terrain of moderate difficulty.
    • Plenty of time to reach Katahdin before it closes.
    • Enjoy fall colors in the deep South, but with little companionship (you'll be ahead of the southbound thru-hikers)

    HEAD-START: MAY

    Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain.Sample itinerary: Start in Harpers Ferry late April or first half of May, reach Katahdin second half of August; return to Harpers Ferry after Labor Day; finish at Springer Mountain the second half of November.

    • Start in easiest part of the Trail that very gradually gets more difficult.
    • When you start do not expect to keep pace right away with thru-hikers who started in Georgia.
    • Start in mild, pleasant weather.
    • Start amidst spring wildflowers and walk north with spring.
    • Hike through the mid-Atlantic before it gets hot, humid and water sources become scarce.
    • If you start earlier than May, plan to reach Vermont after mud season ends (about June 1).
    • Reach the White Mountains in July, before the peak crowds.
    • Reach Maine in August, when black flies are gone (but expect crowds the last hundred miles of Maine).
    • Plenty of time to reach Katahdin before it closes.
    • Walk south with fall colors on the second half of your hike.
    • Companionship with early northbounders the first half, then finish the Trail with early southbounders.
    • Be prepared for hunting season in the South.
    • Be prepared for cold weather and the possibility of snow starting at the end of October.

    HEAD-START: JUNE

    Southern New England north to Katahdin; southern New England south to Springer Mountain.Case study: “Scatman” started on the NY/CT line mid-June and hiked northbound, climbing Katahdin mid-August. He returned to starting point in NY and headed south with the southbound thru-hikers, finishing the end of November.
    His comments: “I believe that beginning in Connecticut in early June was beneficial. By hiking southbound for most of the trip, we also avoided the crowded shelters and the 'spring break' atmosphere of the early part of a northbound hike. It also allowed me to 'follow autumn' for much of the southbound portion of my hike. We did experience some cold weather at higher elevations and some snow in the Smokies … Doing New England northbound also afforded me the opportunity to approach Katahdin head-on, one of the most exciting sights on the A.T.”
    FLIP-FLOP

    Springer Mountain north to Harpers Ferry, W.Va.; Katahdin south to Harpers Ferry.Sample itinerary: Start at Springer Mountain second half of April and hike north, reaching Harpers Ferry, W.Va., middle of July; then flip to Katahdin. Hike south to Harpers Ferry and end first half of November.

    • Start at Springer Mountain, but without the crowds.
    • Minimal chance of snow or severe cold the entire hike.
    • Avoid heat in most of mid-Atlantic.
    • Avoid crowds of other thru-hikers.
    • No worries about reaching Katahdin before it closes.
    • Hike with late northbounders first half; hike with southbounders the second half and meet northbounders a second time.
    • Hike south with fall colors.

    SOUTHBOUND CIRCUIT, A.K.A. WRAPAROUND

    Sample itinerary: Start in Harpers Ferry first half of April and hike south, reaching Georgia the first half of July. Flip to Katahdin and hike south, finishing in Harpers Ferry the second half of October.Case study: “Lonesome Dove” started March 13 in Harpers Ferry. When he reached Shenandoah National Park a week later, he encountered an ice storm that made parts of the Trail impassable and he was forced to walk on Skyline Drive. After completing the southern half of the A.T. a few months later, he took off several weeks and started again southbound in Maine in late summer, finishing his hike in Harpers Ferry the first week of November. His summary of this approach: “A great hike south without bugs and heat of summer. I enjoyed it but it can be lonely.”

    • To avoid snow and ice do not start before April.
    • To take advantages of services in Shenandoah National Park do not start before April.
    • Experience a great deal of solitude.
    • Consider staying at Skyland Lodge in Shenandoah National Park, so you can use it as a mail drop and cut the food you have to carry through the Park in half while you're still getting in shape.
    • Start in mostly gentle terrain and gradually work up to the more challenging terrain of the deep South.
    • Enjoy rhododendron, mountain laurel, and azalea in bloom for several weeks in the south.
    • Expect hot, humid weather in Georgia.
    • No worries about reaching Katahdin in time.
    • Walk south with southbounders and fall color.
    • Because of the loneliness factor, this alternative may be best suited to couples and small groups.
    • Harpers Ferry has direct train access.

    LEAPFROG

    Springer Mountain north to Harpers Ferry, W.Va., southern New England north to Katahdin, southern New England south to Harpers Ferry.Sample itinerary: Start at Springer second half of April and hike north, reaching Harpers Ferry middle of July; “leapfrog” to Great Barrington, Mass; hike north to Katahdin, finishing in September. Return to Great Barrington and hike south to Harpers Ferry.

    • Start at Springer Mountain with other hikers, but without the crowds.
    • Minimal chance of snow or severe cold the entire hike.
    • Avoid the worst heat in most of the mid-Atlantic.
    • Hike in New England before severe cold sets in.
    • Walk north toward Katahdin with little or no time pressure.
    • Hike through southern New England and mid-Atlantic in fall colors.
    • Additional logistics required.

    COOL BREEZE

    Hike the Trail in three equidistant pieces, all southbound. Start with the middle third of Trail, followed by the northern third, ending with the southern third.Sample itinerary: Start in southern Connecticut late April, hike south, reaching Troutville, Virginia (Roanoke area) late June. Hike from Katahdin south, reaching southern Connecticut end of August/ early September. Hike from Troutville south, ending at Springer early November.
    Case study: After completing the Trail twice, “Cool Breeze” designed his third hike to put him in each part of the Trail during optimal weather conditions. “I hit many places in their most clement and beautiful seasons (Pennsylvania in moist May, Maine and Whites in balmy July and August, Smokies in late October peak colors) and finished at Springer before snow fell in early November. It required 2 flips, Virginia to Katahdin, and Connecticut to Virginia, but it allowed me the best weather of any of my A.T. trips.”

    • Hike in mid-Atlantic during spring, before it gets hot and water sources become scarce.
    • Hike first two months in moderate or easy terrain.
    • Hike in New England after bug season, in temperate weather before it gets cold.
    • Expect few other long-distance hikers traveling in the same direction, especially on first leg.
    • Additional logistics required.
    • No worries about Katahdin closure.
    • Avoid extremes of both heat and cold.
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

  6. #26
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    I grew up dealing with the group size restrictions and dealt with them early on as part of our Scout troop. I think a similar model could work for NOBO bubble hikers. While we had a Troop size of 50-80 people, but a patrol structure of 8-10. We stayed a few miles away from each other and then regrouped at trail heads, after hike meals, etc. Such a simple voluntary structure could do quite a bit to lessen impact but still retain a social group. To a certain extent this happens naturally anyway with sub-groups of hikers re-uniting in towns/bars, hostels and group camps in the towns.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cleaner View Post
    Lots of good ideas here, but I still meet many hikers who've never heard of WB.
    This is a very valid point, and something to consider for any WB class of 2015 members. As I said, do the hike that makes sense for you. But also consider the possibility of self directed outreach, education, and more importantly- leading by example. Despite the ease we all get caught up in WB as the center of the hiking universe, its not. But it could be a fine way for a group of like minded and responsible folks to organize and assist- to take action in regard to your awareness.

    It's also something to consider for all WB members- why is this site not a more powerful voice, and more importantly- why are people so dodgy and/or embarrassed about visiting this site. My experience has been that a decent amount of people visit, younger folks especially- but it's a dirty secret they like to keep hidden. We all agree that cyber hiking is vastly different than all of our trail experiences- why?

  7. #27

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    I'm heartened by people taking personal responsibility for spreading out the impact of large numbers of hikers in the spring by planning flip-flops or other alternate schedules. It's leadership in the best sense.

    Hiking in the "off" (but still mostly warm) season has many rewards. Rarely will you need to worry about hitting a shelter and finding no space. People who provide off-trail services will not be burnt out and will welcome the expanded season. You will be a novelty, not just another of those d**n hikers. You may see more wildlife. You will have an opportunity for reflection and contemplation, a sense of the hugeness of nature undistracted by the sounds and activities of others.

    Spread the word,

    Cosmo

  8. #28

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    As I described above, hiking for a week at a time meeting almost no people and consistently having shelters to ourselves without snow on the ground is probably what most people envision when they think of the AT. I ran into a hiker once that had done the AT and PTC as sections hikes. He only hiked in September. I must admit compared to spring hiking September anywhere on the AT is some nice hiking (al long as you plan your water down south).

  9. #29
    Furlough's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cleaner View Post
    Lots of good ideas here, but I still meet many hikers who've never heard of WB.
    Plus one on this. I maintain a section of the AT in SNP. I see a lot of hikers, both thrus, section hikers and day hikers. If the folks I see are willing I always chat them up. I generally ask: 1) Are they on Trail Journals or another journal site (if they are doing an on-line update at all it seems that most are using facebook), 2) Are they on Whiteblaze (very rare that someone recognizes what that is), 3) Are they members of the ATC or PATC (if they know about the ATC it is because they have bought maps or guidebooks, occasionally someone will say they are member. Usually an old fart like me). They may recognize what PATC is only because of the rare trail signs that tell them they are in a section maintained by PATC. Pretty much all the hikers regardless of thru, section, day are thankful for the work the trail clubs do in maintaining the trails/shelters.

    Furlough
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L’Amour

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    Actually, spend the MOST nights in a shelter. Cram it full.

    The problem isn't that the shelters are there, the problem is their not big enough to house everyone. That forces people to create more and more tenting spots, impacting a larger and larger area around the shelter or the vicinity. Tents have a huge impact on the soil under and around them and since there are a limited number of "good" tent sites, these spots get used over and over again compounding the impact. 20, 30 or 40 people all using tents takes up a lot of space. This is really what the issue of too many people all staring at the same time is all about.

    But everything else Bill said is spot on.
    There really isnt anything wrong with tenting around shelters. Its called concentrated impact, by sacrificing small areas you prevent greater overall damage.
    But, the new thru hikers are clinging to shelters like a babe to mammas breast. Scared to tent away from them
    Theres shelters where the ground is all slopes and very poor for tenting. Ive seen 20 tents pitched on horrible sloping ground just to be near the shelter, when 100 yds down the trail, or even before the shelter, there were nice flat spots, with water as well.

    Part, is they havent learned to recognize where to find flat ground. Part is just wanting to be near a group of other people

    I dont really have a problem with shelters, per se. If they all were located a minimum of 1/2 mile off the trail, most would still use them and the rest wouldnt have to see them.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    There really isnt anything wrong with tenting around shelters. Its called concentrated impact, by sacrificing small areas you prevent greater overall damage.
    But, the new thru hikers are clinging to shelters like a babe to mammas breast. Scared to tent away from them
    Theres shelters where the ground is all slopes and very poor for tenting. Ive seen 20 tents pitched on horrible sloping ground just to be near the shelter, when 100 yds down the trail, or even before the shelter, there were nice flat spots, with water as well.

    Part, is they havent learned to recognize where to find flat ground. Part is just wanting to be near a group of other people

    I dont really have a problem with shelters, per se. If they all were located a minimum of 1/2 mile off the trail, most would still use them and the rest wouldnt have to see them.
    Thanks for this post. It hits home in alot of ways. "Clinging to shelters like a babe to mamma's breast---scared to tent away from them" about says it all. It's pitiful and mind boggling all at the same time.

    I've made a careful study of campsites distant from the rat-box shelters and have found hundreds, even thousands. Dispersed camping is what it's all about in my opinion. Here are some examples---


    Here's a campsite south of Fontana and near Walker Gap but way before Cable Gap shelter. Ever used before? Not likely.


    Here's a neato campsite in a gap very close to Brown Fork shelter and shared with 2006 thruhiker Amy Willow. There is even a water spring right down the hill.


    This one is remarkable cuz it's about a mile south of Hurricane Mt shelter on a giant flat ridgetop north of the Mt Rogers area. Thing is, in 70 years of the AT this spot has never been used! I got water by the shelter and hoofed it up to here. As I was sitting in camp I saw several AT hikers madly rushing to the shelter for the all-important Rat Box Experience. Are You Experienced? Oh Heck No.


    If you go past Partnership shelter a mile or two south you reach this excellent spot which I called Little Beartooth Camp. Many hikers rushed by drooling over Partnership and the pizza phone.


    Here is one by a creek very close to Partnership shelter and maybe just a half mile south. I was the first person to camp here in probably 20,000 years. As I was in camp 12 boy scouts rushed by drooling to get their shelter fix. Not me.

  12. #32
    Registered User dangerdave's Avatar
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    Beautiful sites, Tipi! I'm heartened by this as well. That's me! I may choose to hike the Bubble to offer some guidance, but I'm sleeping somewhere away from the shelters, for sure.
    AKA "DANGER" AT Thru-Hiker Class of 2015

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by dangerdave View Post
    Beautiful sites, Tipi! I'm heartened by this as well. That's me! I may choose to hike the Bubble to offer some guidance, but I'm sleeping somewhere away from the shelters, for sure.
    Okay, here are some more dispersed sites on the AT---


    Here's one near Comers Falls and right on the AT.


    This campsite is located 7 miles south of Partnership shelter by a creek, and several miles north of Trimpi shelter.


    This one is south of Trimpi and on top of the mountain above Trimpi and right next to the AT. Great spot.


    This camp is south of Old Orchard shelter where the AT jcts with the Pine Mt trail. A favorite spot.


    This great spot is in the Enchanted Forest and is a mile north of Wise shelter near Mt Rogers.

  14. #34

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    Time to kill and I'm on a roll so I might as well keep posting some AT camping pics---


    This is on Wilburn Ridge next to "Ma Peak" (one of 4) in the crest zone of Mt Rogers and adjacent to the AT. Great spot.


    This one is near Scales on Stone Mt and close to the AT.


    This one is right on the AT (see it to the right barely) and is in Grandmother Gap on Wilburn Ridge, a very windy spot. It's a mile north of Thomas Knob shelter.


    Of course everyone knows about the "Gauntlet" campsites just north of Thomas Knob shelter. There are hundreds.


    Here's a campsite on Stone Mt and real close to the AT---see the trail and the white blaze.

  15. #35

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    Hey dangerdave, I'm starting around April 1st. Sadly, I can't change my plans, because I have 6 months specifically off from work to do the hike. So, I guess I'll probably be one of the anti-social ones, or maybe a trail "mom," telling kids to pick up after themselves. We'll see.

  16. #36
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    I always try to camp in dispersed spots when possible. If done properly, there should be less of an impact. The ground is usually softer and drains better than compacted spots. And there are fewer animal issues since they go for the popular spots first. And fewer people. I can still socialize at the shelters if I feel like it, load up on water and find something better to dry camp. Very few people seem willing to dry camp.

    With the growing popularity of smartphone apps listing coordinates of campsites, fewer hikers will seek out undocumented spots
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  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    I always try to camp in dispersed spots when possible. If done properly, there should be less of an impact. The ground is usually softer and drains better than compacted spots. And there are fewer animal issues since they go for the popular spots first. And fewer people. I can still socialize at the shelters if I feel like it, load up on water and find something better to dry camp. Very few people seem willing to dry camp.

    With the growing popularity of smartphone apps listing coordinates of campsites, fewer hikers will seek out undocumented spots
    Many of my pics show dry camps. Here's my technique: Get to the next shelter and load up 3 or 4 liters of water. Saddle up and keep hiking with your new water load and start eyeballing potential campsites. I always find something in 1 or 2 miles beyond the shelter. The extra water weight is nothing.

  18. #38
    Registered User dudeijuststarted's Avatar
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    So glad to see this being discussed! A true testament to how good the hiking community really is. Its going to make a dramatic difference.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenMac View Post
    Hey dangerdave, I'm starting around April 1st. Sadly, I can't change my plans, because I have 6 months specifically off from work to do the hike. So, I guess I'll probably be one of the anti-social ones, or maybe a trail "mom," telling kids to pick up after themselves. We'll see.
    FM - you dont have to be part of the mob headed north from Springer (upward of 300/ week). Check out the ATC's website for alternate itineraries - these include itineraries for folks like you who have six months set aside starting in April. If you have your heart set on sharing campsites with 40 - 80 people a night then by all means do the usual Springer to Maine thing but if you'd prefer something more special less social, please consider one of these alternate itineraries.
    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

  20. #40
    Registered User dangerdave's Avatar
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    And that's what it comes down to...

    Be a passive part of the solution, or an active one. Everyone is completely free to hike their hike, and disbursing the Bubble is part of the solution, if that is best for you. But to give of one's self, to serve a higher purpose. I'm sure I would enjoy my hike more if I did a Flip, but would I be willing sacrifice part of my hike to serve the trail and it's preservation? I'm certainly no Superman, but it will take each of us doing all we can to make a difference.

    I'm leaning towards my original plan to begin at Springer on April 1st, and step up my advocacy from conscientious hiker to compassionate educator. Maybe there is a way to gain some sponsorship or publicity before/after/during my hike.
    AKA "DANGER" AT Thru-Hiker Class of 2015

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