Qulit Purchase

[Just Bill]

Just Bill,

Afterward, was the treated down still more effort to fluff?

I did not have that experience, although it was not so self-inflating" as the untreated 900-fill Brooks-Range down.

It does fluff.

There are no "clumps" holding together.

I would add, to what you said, if the only down you have experienced is 650-fill down, that jump up to 850-fill or 900-fill is more impressive.

In addition, I would think these 10D fabric selections would snuggle around you: the experience would be very much like covering up with a warm cloud.

The initial fluff was very bad. When I stuff down I still do it the old fashioned way by weighing then making a "snowball" to stuff. Many people will tell you what a nightmare regular down is and how it ends up everywhere if you aren't careful. It's true more or less.

As a contrast- the treated stuff was very easy to work with in that regard and I hardly lost a cluster. It sticks to itself and doesn't float around the room unless you are very sloppy with it, and even then it doesn't go far.

When I'm all done and the bags are stitched up; Apples to Apples with 850 fill and similar bag construction-
The regular stuff took four or five good shakes and it was done. Snowballs busted and chambers filled.
The treated stuff took some hand busting, and several runs in the dryer with tennis balls to bust the clumps.

Overall- Performance seemed to be about 50FP lower when it was all said and done. Getting max loft again after stuffing the bag proved more work with the treated stuff.

That said- we're only talking a few bags on my end.
But I do note that Western Mountaineering still hasn't bought in, and Zpacks recent change back to regular is interesting as well. I also question a bit of the marketing. Wetting out down, despite general advice is a bit tricky in real life conditions and there are decades of proven use of regular down by careful and experienced users that back up using untreated down. I think a good shell does as much if not more for your money IMO.

It is basically free relative to the cost of the bag to use treated, and if you are selecting your bag 10-20 degrees beyond expected temps and going with a general "better safe than sorry approach" then the difference is probably minimal. If you are trying to push the limits a bit and get every gram of warmth out... then it's a decent point to ponder.

[Gray Bear]

I've heard other people say they feel the same way, but I just don't agree in the least.

I don't care if it's a quilt or a bag, if it's rated at 30, it should be good down to at least 30. I have a EE quilt rated at 30 which I've happily had down in the low 20's with just my typical silkweights on and in the teens with light down. No problems.

This industry is plagued in some regards by a terrible set of standards, and people just seem to accept it. The good news is that we have a few folks out there running their business right and making products that live up to their claims.

Also, the main advantage of a quilt is not that you can vent the footbox. It's an advantage for the quilts that are designed this way, but not a huge one.

This is what I was hoping to hear. would you consider yourself a warm sleeper?

[Gray Bear]

I'm looking at the $85 difference to go from 800 to850 in the EE Rev 30* Is it worth it? My WM Alpinlite is 850 I'm not sure what the fabric is but I Love this bag.

[Frye]

This is what I was hoping to hear. would you consider yourself a warm sleeper?

I wouldn't say one way or the other. I'm probably about average. In the morning if 2 people say they slept cold, and 2 say they slept warm, I'm likely to be with the 4 who said they slept comfortable.

I do know I don't slept warm though, I've owned some crap bags which didn't keep me kosher down to their comfort rating.

I honestly think you can't go wrong with any of the 3 aforementioned companies. EE is just my preference.

@Bill, I think drydown is overhyped without a doubt. When it gets good and wet it works as well as any other down would that's untreated. Where I think it shines is its resistance to humidity. I live in the mid-Atlantic region, a notoriously humid area, and I have noticed a difference from the bags of yore. (Hah! 'yore' Saying that made me giggle.)

[Frye]

I'm looking at the $85 difference to go from 800 to850 in the EE Rev 30* Is it worth it? My WM Alpinlite is 850 I'm not sure what the fabric is but I Love this bag.

A down bag that's treated right should last a very long time. If you can afford it than I can see no reason not to purchase the higher quality of the two. Personally I just don't believe on skimping with something I plan on keeping in rotation for 10 years or more.

[Just Bill]

RE- brands-
All companies mentioned make good gear. The only caution if you are looking for the "best" and weight is a concern I would mention is Hammock vs Ground companies. While this is a very general statement: Companies with a hammock background don't chase weight and efficiency as diligently as ground companies.
Zpacks basically sells a slim cut mummy without a hood. EE sells very efficient quilts developed by Tim over several years during the "height" of BPL.
Quality is good on all, but the companies with background in their respective specialties tend to meet these needs more efficiently.

RE- Footbox
The main (and only really) advantage of a quilt is a larger temperature range from a given bag. If you know what temps you will expect- generally speaking typical weeklong or less hiker can do better with a mummy bag for a given rating- weight is pretty similar- especially if you add in the hats or extra clothes, or bump in rating (for drafts) typically used by a quilt user. In addition if you only own one piece of sleeping gear- a quilt is a better choice. The reason the quilt has become so popular is that over a season (or long distance hike) you have better control of your sleep temps.

The footbox style is what makes this work- there are three types. Each giving more flexibility and a wider range of comfortable sleep.
Sewn shut/Full footbox- basically a mummy bag. Lightest and most efficient for a specific temp.
Sewn side/Drawcord end- in the middle of efficiency/warmth.
Full open- while you can close this up completely- it is generally a few degrees cooler for a given rating because of drafts. It weighs a hair more as well. But you can blow the bag wide open when needed.

A full open footbox quilt can easily have a thirty degree or more temp rating swing. So on a long hike or three season bag- one bag will generally do ya.
Most of us eventually own:
A mummy in a 10-20* rating for really cold temps.
A good 30* or so (some go 20) that can be vented comfortably and used into the 50-60* range. Footbox style lets you push that (full sewn goes to the lower end, full open caters to the higher temps.) Some folks can use a full open bag into the 60's or seventies.
Generally though someplace around 55+, most give up and get a summer quilt in the 40-50* range.

RE-rating-
Unfortunately none of the cottage guys (and even some of the smaller mainstream companies) cannot afford EN ratings. So there is always some wiggle room. Generally speaking hammock guys are very conservative.
EE is pretty conservative.
Zpacks is about right.

But I do agree with the general comment- If you buy a 20* it should be a 20*. Unfortunately my 20 is not your 20.
One check- what is your thermostat set to at home? Say it's 70*
If you're a neutral sleeper- you can sleep with a light layer of clothes on or a sheet.
If you can fall asleep naked and not wake up- you're a warm sleeper- figure 10* higher.
If you can't fall asleep (or stay asleep) without a blanket or combo of clothes and sheet- you're a cold sleeper- figure 10* lower.
If you bundle up in bed with heavy blankets and don't give a crap about weight versus comfy sleep- then don't mess around when it's chilly out.

Waking up sweating isn't good either- so don't go overboard.

[CCCCAT]

This is all really helpful and timely. I was just on the verge of trying to decide between a sleeping bag and quilt. I'm inclined to go the quilt route. It looks like many of these companies do custom quilts. I hadn't considered that was something I'd have to allow for. My AT start is end of April (in VA). Are there other recommended companies that pre-make ultralight quilts. I'd prefer drawcord/open footbox since I would like to use the quilt at home too.

[MuddyWaters]

I've heard other people say they feel the same way, but I just don't agree in the least.

I don't care if it's a quilt or a bag, if it's rated at 30, it should be good down to at least 30. I have a EE quilt rated at 30 which I've happily had down in the low 20's with just my typical silkweights on and in the teens with light down. No problems.

This industry is plagued in some regards by a terrible set of standards, and people just seem to accept it. The good news is that we have a few folks out there running their business right and making products that live up to their claims.

Also, the main advantage of a quilt is not that you can vent the footbox. It's an advantage for the quilts that are designed this way, but not a huge one.

I wont buy a sleeping bag that doesnt unzip completely either, same reason. It limits the comfortable temperature range a lot. If you are covered you are sweaty, if not you are cold.

Quilts ratings are based on loft. And then there are drafts, which dont occur with bags. There is also the additional head insulation needed at some point.

I have several of both. Just my experiences.

[Nodust]

This is all really helpful and timely. I was just on the verge of trying to decide between a sleeping bag and quilt. I'm inclined to go the quilt route. It looks like many of these companies do custom quilts. I hadn't considered that was something I'd have to allow for. My AT start is end of April (in VA). Are there other recommended companies that pre-make ultralight quilts. I'd prefer drawcord/open footbox since I would like to use the quilt at home too.

Jacks R Better has always shipped my orders within a week. They have footboxes that open up all the way and close with velcro like material. I have a 40°F quilt by them and both my sons use the same kind as I do.

Jacks R Better

[Frye]

I wont buy a sleeping bag that doesnt unzip completely either, same reason. It limits the comfortable temperature range a lot. If you are covered you are sweaty, if not you are cold.

Quilts ratings are based on loft. And then there are drafts, which dont occur with bags. There is also the additional head insulation needed at some point.

I have several of both. Just my experiences.

I'm not saying the design of the footbox is without advantages, I just disagree as to their importance. In a summer quilt I prefer an adjustable footbox, in quilts rated for lower temps I prefer a sewn in design. (More preference than advantage) I know some people want one quilt to cover them for all weather though and perhaps the footbox has more importance for them, I don't fall under this category though.

I see the biggest advantage of a quilt being its streamlined designed. All the unneeded excess of a sleeping bag being cut out.

In regards to drafts. I don't have an issue with em. I just make sure my quilt is of a proper width and if possible I use a strapping mechanism.

[Gray Bear]

I definitely want a quilt the opens up and lays flat. To me personally that's a major benifit. It seems to me it would be easy enough to stuff some clothes down there to block a draft if needed. If the forecast is below 20 I'm going to my bag anyway.
I'm waiting for a reply to my email to HG to see what they have to say but at this point I'm leaning towards the EE 30 with 850. I may go with a 20d shell since I'm going to give the tarp thing a shot this year. I'm also going to follow Connie ' lead and try the Tigoat bug Net Bivy. That sounds like a very sweet little setup. When I'm doing long days a big part of my mental game is a good meal and a comfy place to crash and this sound like a ,setup to look forward to.

[Studlintsean]

Any opinions on the 10d vs 20d outer shell for the AT? I'm thinking of purchasing a 40deg EE Revelation for late spring, summer, and early fall. How much more efficient is the 20d in keeping the down dry (I know it won't keep it completely dry)?

[Connie]

Interesting question.

We have to do the same things to protect our gear, regardless of the outer fabric.

[Butch_Lodi]

I would recommend a 20 degree quilt with a standard (non sewn footbox). This works for me even in the summer months since you can vent as needed to keep from overheating. I have an UGQ Flightjacket and really like it. If your not a tree hanger, get the bungee setup from UGQ. Costs around $10 and prevents the quilt from riding up as you move around.

[gbolt]

I would recommend a 20 degree quilt with a standard (non sewn footbox). This works for me even in the summer months since you can vent as needed to keep from overheating. I have an UGQ Flightjacket and really like it. If your not a tree hanger, get the bungee setup from UGQ. Costs around $10 and prevents the quilt from riding up as you move around.

+one on this Post

I just ordered the 50* Flight standard footbox with the bungee pad setup. I went 10D inner and outer mainly for the weight savings. I know that the 10D outer will wear some and is not as durable for long term use. However, this is a secondary limited quilt that actually replaced a S2S Thermolite Liner that was 4oz heavier and not nearly as warm.

I still plan on purchasing a 20* Top Quilt and will go with a heavier outer shell material for durability and safety as well as a sewn footbox too limit cold. I now plan on getting the bungee setup on this as well. It makes it very versitile to go to the ground when necessary.

[Gray Bear]

Any opinions on the 10d vs 20d outer shell for the AT? I'm thinking of purchasing a 40deg EE Revelation for late spring, summer, and early fall. How much more efficient is the 20d in keeping the down dry (I know it won't keep it completely dry)?

I've been thinking about this as well. I'm guessing that the 20D may offer a little more protection from moisture but I'm guessing it will take a bit longer to dry out as well. My plan is to go with a light weight 10D.

[Butch_Lodi]

Good choice, you will love the quilt. Much more comfortable and versatile than a traditional sleeping bag.

[Odd Man Out]

I too have an Underground Quilt. Very nice, lots of options, worth considering.

[CCCCAT]

After much research and with the help of this thread, just now took the plunge and ordered an Enlightened Equipment Revelation, 30F deg, 800 DownTek GDD, Short. Just 15.82 ounces! Yahoo!! Hopefully it will get here by early - mid April.

I forgot to ask them about the straps. I'm be sleeping in my tent, and using this as a quilt on my bed at home. Do the straps make much difference?

[Gray Bear]

After much research and with the help of this thread, just now took the plunge and ordered an Enlightened Equipment Revelation, 30F deg, 800 DownTek GDD, Short. Just 15.82 ounces! Yahoo!! Hopefully it will get here by early - mid April.

I forgot to ask them about the straps. I'm be sleeping in my tent, and using this as a quilt on my bed at home. Do the straps make much difference?

Thats awesome! now the wait begins.

hopefully, I'll be ordering mine tomorrow. Im looking at 30* reg/wide. Im trying to decide between the 800 and 850. The weight savings is less than .75 oz and its another $85, enough for my 8x10 tarp.