Qulit Purchase

[Gray Bear]

I've been shopping around for a 30 deg quilt and I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on the Enlightened Equipment Revelation based on weight/cost/customer servise. Is there anything else I should be looking at that is compairable?

[Just Bill]

Zpacks, and the hammock hangers will tell you some others...

EE stuff is pretty durn good though. Between Zpacks and EE pretty well comes down to features and price. Zpacks only sells 900FP, Tim at EE sells a few different fills to fit your budget.

[gbolt]

Gray Bear, EE are great quilts but I would not pull the trigger until you check Hammock Gear's Website. HG in Lancaster, Ohio is turning out top of the line quilts at the lightest weight with new Argon Materials and great quality down. They are a cottage shop, husband/wife original team that has grown over the last few years. Each piece is truly handcrafted and a piece of art.

I have not pulled the trigger yet as well, but I am already swayed to at least one TQ from HG. You will be happy with EE but HG desearves serious consideration and research to avoid possible buyer regret later.

[Frye]

It's going to be hard to beat one of Tim's quilts. I have an Enigma elite which I'm totally in love with. I've heard great things about the Zpacks quilts but I felt like I was getting a better deal going with EE. (They edged out Zpacks on the amount of 900fp down by .6oz while having the same total weight) Super comfy fabric also!

That said, I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on a new summer quilt and I'm considering buying it from mid-atlanticmountainworks. I don't know much about them, but I have heard a few positive reviews so I figured I'd throw some cash their way. It'll probably have to wait until I return from my thru though.

[Connie]

I followed the story of quilts starting with the Suluk46 YouTube video to EnLightened Equipment at BPL Forum, asking questions to make my own and getting answers from EE maker Tim Marshall.

The purchase price was daunting.

I also asked many questions of Stormcrow at Hammock Forum and got answers: I admired so many quilts I found out existed because of Hammock Forum.

The purchase price was daunting.

I decided it was time to go from homemade to high-end quality. I knew what was available. I had the cash on hand. I sprung for argon fabric and great price for the Hammock Gear Burrow 20.

I admit I was concerned about the 850-fill down and the water-treated down. The fact is I really could not tell the difference comparing that to my Brooks-Range 900-fill "elephant foot" half bag, in fact, overall it felt nicer. I attribute that to the fabric.

In fact, the Hammock Gear Burrow 20 was superior in every way: the argon fabric and 850-fill water-treated down floated on me and it feels warmer than it should. It is an amazing effect.

The fabric and the down compliment each other.

It is significant to not have to heat up air gaps inside a down sleeping bag. This Hammock Gear sleeping quilt has no air gaps because it nestles around me on all sides it touches. The image I am trying to convey is a baby chick tucked under its mother. My XTherm completes this protective sleep system. I am in the protective warm nest.

I got the Titanium Goat Bug Bivy with "bathtub" floor to keep it all tucked around me, that and I have always liked a bug bivy included in my sleep system.

I suppose I could have just said: the argon fabric and this 850-fill down Hammock Gear provided is really special.

But then, how would you know what I have been trying to communicate?

EE and HG are great choices. Want to know all the other ones? There are more.

Frye said, "Super comfy fabric." Tough choice!

[Gray Bear]

I followed the story of quilts starting with the Suluk46 YouTube video to EnLightened Equipment at BPL Forum, asking questions to make my own and getting answers from EE maker Tim Marshall.

The purchase price was daunting.

I also asked many questions of Stormcrow at Hammock Forum and got answers: I admired so many quilts I found out existed because of Hammock Forum.

The purchase price was daunting.

I decided it was time to go from homemade to high-end quality. I knew what was available. I had the cash on hand. I sprung for argon fabric and great price for the Hammock Gear Burrow 20.

I admit I was concerned about the 850-fill down and the water-treated down. The fact is I really could not tell the difference comparing that to my Brooks-Range 900-fill "elephant foot" half bag, in fact, overall it felt nicer.

In fact, the Hammock Gear Burrow 20 was superior in every way: the argon fabric and 850-fill water-treated down floated on me and it feels warmer than it should. It is an amazing effect.

The fabric and the down compliment each other.

It is significant to not have to heat up air gaps inside a down sleeping bag. This Hammock Gear sleeping quilt has no air gaps because it nestles around me on all sides it touches. The image I am trying to convey is a baby chick tucked under its mother. My XTherm completes this protective sleep system. I am in the protective warm nest.

I got the Titanium Goat Bug Bivy with "bathtub" floor to keep it all tucked around me, that and I have always liked a bug bivy included in my sleep system.

I suppose I could have just said: the argon fabric and this 850-fill down Hammock Gear provided is really special.

But then, how would you know what I have been trying to communicate?

EE and HG are great choices. Want to know all the other ones? There are more.

Frye said, "Super comfy fabric." Tough choice!

Wow! you should be in advertising!

I really don't know anything about Argon so I guess I'm going to have to read up a bit before I purchase.

my understanding on the 850 vs 900 is that the 900 compresses a bit better and is a bit lighter but is it worth the extra $$?

I checked out the HG site last night and sent an email with a few questions. They have 20 and 40 degree quilts but since I have a 20 deg WM Alpinlite that I'm VERY fond of I was looking at the 30 deg quilts. I don't really want to go any lighter than that with a quilt. When I ordered my WM bag I got the 2 oz. over fill and the guy I spoke with said that would basically give me a 17 deg bag with enough room to wear some more down when temps go south of that. Realistically I don't get out much in the winter but I love the late fall and in NH the forecast can change pretty drastically over the course of a 3-4 day trip so I'd rather have a little more bag than I'm going to need. My WM gets a little too toasty above 40 so my thought was a 30 deg quilt and some good sleepwear should be pretty cozy down to 40 pretty easy and with the ability to vent the warmer nights wouldn't be too bad either. The question is can HG get me into a 30 deg quilt for the same money as the EE Revelation. Obviously if better and more expensive materials are are used (Argon and 900 fill) then it would be a bit more.

[gbolt]

Gray Beard,

Connie did a great job discussing the Pro's of Argon. You also are making a great case for a 30 degree quilt. However, HG goes 20* to 40* for a reason. Quilts cover a range and venting the bottom of the quilt increasses the range even more. Your WM doesn't allow this. If you truly want a 30* quilt (as many hangers do because they go 0* versus 20*) then talk to HG about the 2 oz overfill to bring it down to 30*. Argon is truly a major componant to weight, feel, and insulation. I have found HG's prices to be the most competitive around. However, if you want to add one more company to the mix, UGQ in Michigan is also using argon, great down, and quality workmanship.

Also, Just Bill gave great advice with Zpacks. I missed the fact that you were sold on 900 fill versus 850. To me, a 30* versus a O* or really stretching the bottom temp of a 20* needs to be greatly researched and may be worth the cost of Zpacks and EE. However, with a 30* and already owning a WM, I would go with the lower fill.

Cool discussion for sure!

[Connie]

I cannot compare EE and HG because I don't have EE.

The 900-fill fluffs more, however, I could not notice the difference between the Hammock Gear Burrow 20 850-fill and the Brooks-Range Elephant Foot 900-fill.

I have both.

I attribute that to the fabric. However, down is sourced from different suppliers, etc. It is entirely true one sourced down is better than another. For that reason, I can't tell you so-in-so has the best down. That is where you have to rely on all the information you can gather, and then, hope for the best outcome.

In my instance, I am delighted with Hammock Gear 850-fill down in argon fabric compared to my Brooks-Range 900-fill Elephant Foot 20D shell fabric treated with silicone.

[That is not to say I am disappointed with my Brooks-Range Elephant Foot: different purpose.]

I will say, a hard-faced fabric feels cold to the touch in really cold weather. I wish all sleeping bag manufacturers would use a soft-face fabric on the inside surface of the sleeping bag, for that reason. If I touch the hard-face fabric with bare skin in really cold weather, the cold knifes right thru me.

[Connie]

gbolt, a little dyslexic?

More down of the same down-fill rating as "down overfill" = lower temperatures.

[Connie]

HG, EE, and UGQ are using 10D fabric.

[There had been a 7D fabric, TiGoat used in a bivy.]

[Connie]

It is tough to compare top-of-the-line HG, EE, UGQ, Z-Packs, JacksRBetter

I would add Arrowhead-Equipment to that list.

Any others?

Top grade materials. Exquisite stitching. Excellent features. Excellent design.

Insulation choices. Fabric choices.

Tough choice!

[Gray Bear]

Thanks for all the great input. some good info.

I'm very interested in the Argon. It sounds like great stuff. it sounds like is may be a bit more durable than the 10D from EE although they do offer a 20D as well. The comfort level is a huge factor as well. It seems as though it may be more resistant to moisture as well. The only thing I'm wondering about is that its a fairly new fabric. Hopefully if will live up to the claimed durability.

As far a down fill goes Connie makes some great points. Who sources what from where could be a subject for debate I guess. I wonder what it would look like if you compared an oz of 850 from WM, EE, HG and UGQ. I'm not sure I would spend the extra $$ for 900 but 850 looks like a safe middle of the road call It looks like EE give the option of treated or untreated 800. HG uses treated 850 and UGQ uses either 800 or 850 untreated as far as I can tell.

I'd like to see the weight on the Burro 40 reg/wide + 2 oz over fill. My guess is that would make it something like a 35* quilt making it about 5* cooler than the EE 30 and another $17. For that you would get a little better compression and a more comfortable material. Man it nice to have some many high quality options but this is a lot to sort out!

[Gray Bear]

Man now I have to go check out JRB and ZPacks! Thanks Connie! there goes my afternoon.

could be worse......SSShhhhhhhhhhh! dont tell anyone but Im at work pulling OT doing quilt research LOL!

[Connie]

The 10D fabrics are new, all new.

However, they were tested before brought out.

[Just Bill]

Fabrics-
Argon .67 is nice enough stuff, a bit cheaper but still good quality. It does dimple a hair with washings, but that is more of a cosmetic than any real issue. Dutch is selling an Argon Taffeta that feels more like M50, but M50 has the best DWR. Personally I don't notice the ripstop in the regular Argon fabric at all so any comfort benefit is minimal or non-existent for me and I'd rather have the ripstop grid.
M50 (thru-hiker) is probably the nicest of these fabrics but pricier and occasionally hard to find in production models.
Not sure exactly what Tim and Joe use- but their shells are just fine too and very similar.

Down-
Mainly a financial choice IMO when talking 900vs850. My personal view is 850 is plenty. In making my own down stuff the last year or so I have found that in a higher loft sleeping piece that the weight savings is minimal. Enlightened's spec sheets provide a great way to compare the fills apples to apples. The 30 degree Revelation you were looking at for example is $50 more to save .62 ounces (in Regular/Regular)

I also find that 900 fill is a hair more moisture sensitive (potentially negating the benefits after a few days on the trail) and takes more time to loft fully. For me, the jump from 750 to 850 is much more valuable than the jump from 850 to 900. I think 850 is the best mix of real life performance, weight, cost.

FWIW- so far I have not been a fan of the treated downs. I notice that Zpacks no longer offers them as the stock fill. In handling both while making quilts I noticed the treated is a bit sticky. It takes more effort to loft. Regular down fluffs with a quick shake while I find myself having to break clumps by hand with the treated. This is very apparent when stuffing the down. A few shakes will spread the regular, but I needed nearly 2 hours in the dryer with tennis balls to full distribute the treated down.

[Frye]

I gotta make this quick, the Maryland game is coming on.

Just my two cents, but after many hours of comparing the different companies and their products I came away feeling EE was just a bit better. Not to take anything away from HG or Zpacks, they're both great companies and make fine products, I just found EE to be of slightly better quality when looking into it.

I played around with quilts from all 3 companies (and a few other bags also) over the course of a few months. Mostly just hounding buddies to let me check out their gear in order to avoid making unnecessary purchases.

Price, HG has both Zpacks and EE beat. No denying that.

Feel. The fabrics used all felt fine, I'm not even sure I could notice a real difference, but I came away feeling the fabrics used by EE were the best. It could have been in my head though.

Down. IMO a down bag should be one of your longest lasting pieces of gear. That said, I see no reason not to go for the best within your price range. 900fp might only be marginally better than 850fp but it's still the better of the two. Also the 900fp down used by Enlightened Equipment to the best of my knowledge is responsibly sourced. I didn't see anything about where the down for HG quilts comes from on their website (couldn't be bothered to ask) and I never tried checking with Zpacks.

I also ended up comparing quilts by using the specs posted on each of their websites, which was not as easy as it sounds as the sizing varies from company to company. Once again I came away feeling as though EE was the slight favorite. (For various reasons, and if asked I'll elaborate, but the UM game is on and I gots to go!)

No matter what you can't make a bad choice going with any of these 3 companies. If you want a great bag at a decent price, go HG. Want a quilt with coverage more on par with a sleeping bag, go Zpacks. My preference just happened to be EE.

[MuddyWaters]

Buying a quilt that footbox doesnt vent, negates a lot of the advantages

Plan on a quilt rated 10F lower than a bag you would use in comparable conditions, IMO

I think Hammock Gear offers the best deal today.

[Frye]

Buying a quilt that footbox doesnt vent, negates a lot of the advantages

Plan on a quilt rated 10F lower than a bag you would use in comparable conditions, IMO

I think Hammock Gear offers the best deal today.

I've heard other people say they feel the same way, but I just don't agree in the least.

I don't care if it's a quilt or a bag, if it's rated at 30, it should be good down to at least 30. I have a EE quilt rated at 30 which I've happily had down in the low 20's with just my typical silkweights on and in the teens with light down. No problems.

This industry is plagued in some regards by a terrible set of standards, and people just seem to accept it. The good news is that we have a few folks out there running their business right and making products that live up to their claims.

Also, the main advantage of a quilt is not that you can vent the footbox. It's an advantage for the quilts that are designed this way, but not a huge one.

[Connie]

Just Bill,

FWIW- so far I have not been a fan of the treated downs. I notice that Zpacks no longer offers them as the stock fill. In handling both while making quilts I noticed the treated is a bit sticky. It takes more effort to loft. Regular down fluffs with a quick shake while I find myself having to break clumps by hand with the treated. This is very apparent when stuffing the down. A few shakes will spread the regular, but I needed nearly 2 hours in the dryer with tennis balls to full distribute the treated down.

Afterward, was the treated down still more effort to fluff?

I did not have that experience, although it was not so self-inflating" as the untreated 900-fill Brooks-Range down.

It does fluff.

There are no "clumps" holding together.

I would add, to what you said, if the only down you have experienced is 650-fill down, that jump up to 850-fill or 900-fill is more impressive.

In addition, I would think these 10D fabric selections would snuggle around you: the experience would be very much like covering up with a warm cloud.

[Nodust]

It is tough to compare top-of-the-line HG, EE, UGQ, Z-Packs, JacksRBetter

I would add Arrowhead-Equipment to that list.

Any others?

Top grade materials. Exquisite stitching. Excellent features. Excellent design.

Insulation choices. Fabric choices.

Tough choice!

I have quilts by Wilderness Logics and Warbonnet. Both are great quality also. Just as good as my HG and Jack R Better quilts. It is tough to tell which one is better. My Wilderness Logics top quilts have kept me warm at 24°F with just merino base layers on.