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  1. #1

    Default Blazes removed from*Dugger Mountain and Cheaha Wilderness*

    I wanted to share it here as well. Based on what I have read this will apply to the Wilderness Areas only. I believe the numbers below are correct.

    Cheaha
    Pinhoti Section 6, mile 67.9-77.8

    Dugger Mountain
    Pinhoti Section 11, mile 136.2-144.8



    http://www.pinhotitrailalliance.org/...ck-~-2-19.html

    "One of the things that we are trying to accomplish in our Wilderness Areas is to leave them as natural as possible, for the appearance of being part of the wilderness area setting, to meet the scenic integrity objectives established for wilderness areas and to protect the wilderness character of the area.


    In keeping with this theme, we are going to be removing the blazing *from the Pinhoti Trail sections that cross through both Dugger Mountain and Cheaha Wilderness Areas.* Forest Service policy states that there will be no blazing in wilderness areas, not even if it is a National Scenic Trail. These should not be there, the trail is well defined in most areas, in the rock outcrop areas we will leave the blazes until we can either put directional signs where needed or the preferred, build up one side with a rock ledge leading through these areas.


    I know we have a lot of volunteers who love to get out and do projects for us, if you would like to help with this, please let me know, our Wild South Volunteer Wilderness Rangers will also be working on this …thanks for all that you do for the National Forests to make it a nicer place for visitors, please help spread the word …thanks Mary

    Mary Humphries*
    Wilderness, Special Uses, Lands Technician
    Forest Service*
    Talladega National Forest, Talladega and Shoal Creek Ranger Districts
    p: 256-463-2272 x109*
    c: 256-761-7600*
    f: 256-463-5385*
    [email protected]
    45 Highway 281
    Heflin, AL 36264
    www.fs.fed.us*"

  2. #2
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    wonder how they will remove the blazes?

    as i would think that with any removal, there would still be evidence of a blaze.......

    i would prefer instead of removing them, not to repaint them in the future and let nature slowly fade away...........

    which also leads me to a question-----ive never been on this trail so i would like to know how hard is it to follow, especially in the wilderness areas that it passes through?

    if the trail is well defined and easily followed, then blazes arent as necessary as if the trail is in a place where it is hard to follow..............

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    Blazes are largely unneccessary. Even in places with obscure trail, with experience you develop a sense for where the trail goes, based on visual cues.

  4. #4

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    I take it that means all blazes. If so and you hit an area where say a blue trail goes one way and the white another, what is the plan, flip a coin?

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    When I was working in GSMNP I had many questions about why there were so few blazes on the trails and couldn't they spare some paint cans and brushes. Visitors, mostly day hikers didn't like the system where only the junctions were signed. Well at least the ones who commented didn't like the system. I directed many to the Avenza app where they could download the park map to see what trail they were on (which more and more hikers are using anyway), so technology is filling when blazes are removed. Sort of ironic, removing blazes to keep the place more of a wilderness now requires use of a GPS app for many.

    I'm not sure I agree with the practice, especially a time when many more people are entering hiking, it does take time to get your 'trail senses' to know where the trail is without the blazes, but at the same time understand that some people use nature to find themselves and signs of civilization could interfere with that.

  6. #6
    PCT, Sheltowee, Pinhoti, LT , BMT, AT, SHT, CDT, TRT 10-K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake2c View Post
    I take it that means all blazes. If so and you hit an area where say a blue trail goes one way and the white another, what is the plan, flip a coin?
    Maybe a map?

  7. #7
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    I've never really understood how a trail sign at junctions was any more "natural" than an occasional blaze... Oh well, - Government Policy.

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    The PCT isnt blazed. Many western trails are not.
    Blazing is purely comforting, not necessary in the least on well defined trails, which most are.

    small signs at intersections (which obviously shouldnt be trusted), are all thats necessary. Verify your location and trail choice at intersections and you learn not to worry.

    I use a watchband compass for this, if a trail enters from the NW and agrees with the map, I know where I am.

    The absolute worst that can happen, is someone goes a few miles the wrong way. They do that anyway even with blazes, because they dont pay attention. I actually miss a lot of trail intersections, walk right by them somehow,usually becuase they put the sign up on a tree, instead of down low. Havent gotten lost badly yet.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 03-08-2015 at 10:52.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post

    as i would think that with any removal, there would still be evidence of a blaze........
    I imagine that the painted blazes will simply disappear over the years as the paint fades and the trees fall down. There are still quite a few of the metal blazes.. Those need to be collected and given to a group that can use them for fund raising.


    ===============
    Edit to include the following reply from Mary Humphries
    ===============
    l
    Thank you all for your concerns, I know that there are a couple of areas (the rock outcrops) along the Pinhoti Trail in the Cheaha Wilderness that it is hard to define the trail, this is the areas that we intend to leave the blue blazes until we can build up or use rock cairns to define the trail. We are in the process of replacing the signs in the interior of the Cheaha Wilderness (thanks to Van Phillips for constructing these), these will be located at intersections of trails, in rare cases we install signs to try to keep visitors on the trail, these should be temporary, until user made trails are naturalized, we do have a problem with a few user made trails. We have been working very hard on obliterating user made trails in the Cheaha Wilderness, which, since they are not official trails, not on maps, causes visitors to get lost off of the main trail.

    In a recent meeting with the Clay County Sheriff’s office to renew our Memorandum of Understanding for the Search and Rescue that they perform for us in Clay County, which the Cheaha Wilderness falls in, they informed us that they only had two search and rescue’s in the Wilderness this past year, this is way down, I hope due to information and maps that we post at trailheads, information and maps that Cheaha State Park hands out to wilderness trail users. We also have our Wild South Volunteer Wilderness Ranger program that are out there at high use times on the weekends to meet and assist if needed. The Clay County Sheriff’s Office also informed us that because of the fact that people have cell phones with GPS devices, they can locate them very fast now.

    Prior to us removing blazes (this will be done by scraping on trees that will allow and spray paint on others, mostly hardwoods that would leave a scar), we will have information at the trailheads notifying visitors about the changes they will see in the Wilderness areas. We have been working very hard on this because the safety of our visitors is very important to us. I feel very confident that what we are trying to achieve in these Wilderness areas will make it a better Wilderness experience for everyone, and that we will be helping to restore the Wilderness Character in these areas.

    The messages of concern that I have received does let me know that we need to do more Wilderness education, we never said that it will be easier or convenient in Wilderness areas, the users will find it to be more difficult and challenging. Wilderness is managed to protect the resource, provide opportunities of solitude, wilderness recreation does include inherent risks. Trails are present in wilderness, but they should lay light on the land, they should have minimum directional signing and it should blend in with the natural surroundings. Visitors will be physically challenged as they ford streams and climb over downed trees.

    We hope to be having a volunteers trail meeting in the near future, I hope everyone will be able to attend and help us to address the problems that different ones have brought to our attention all along the Pinhoti Trail. As you know we depend on volunteers to be our eyes out on the trails, so we hope everyone will want to help with being a part of the solution to make the trails in Alabama some of the best.




    Mary Humphries
    Wilderness, Special Uses, Lands Technician
    Forest Service
    Talladega National Forest, Talladega and Shoal Creek Ranger Districts
    p: 256-463-2272 x109
    c: 256-761-7600
    f: 256-463-5385
    [email protected]
    45 Highway 281
    Heflin, AL 36264
    www.fs.fed.us
    Caring for the land and serving people

    Last edited by gubbool; 03-12-2015 at 13:46.
    "To be nobody but yourself - in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else - means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting."

  10. #10

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    The government has gone mad. Pretty soon, humans will not be allowed to walk in these areas to prevent damaging the pine straw. It amazes me how people worship nature. Anyone ever notice how nature seems to undo what we do pretty quickly? Are a few painted markings really that big of a deal? Once somebody gets lost and has to be rescued, it will just give them more reason to shut the whole thing down. Ia slippery slope.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by gubbool View Post
    I imagine that the painted blazes will simply disappear over the years as the paint fades and the trees fall down. There are still quite a few of the metal blazes.. Those need to be collected and given to a group that can use them for fund raising.
    A lot of times they are painted over with tree color paint, then allowed to 'fade away'

  12. #12

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    Not sure how I feel about this.
    I have become disoriented in both areas even with the blazes.
    The Pinhoti does not get the foot traffic to keep the trail visible during the fall /winter.

    Strange how it says they will leave the blazes in the rock outcropped areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Blazing is purely comforting, not necessary in the least on well defined trails, which most are.
    True, but in this particular instance, we're talking about two specific sections of the Pinhoti trail and some side trails in the Cheaha area. There are spots on these sections where the trail is very definitely not well defined. The maintainers have their work cut out for them. As swisscross pointed out, fall and winter are going to become tricky in spots. All those old forest roads the trail crosses will compound the problem. The Cheaha area in particular gets a lot of novice hikers. I have a feeling there will soon be a lot more searches for missing hikers.

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    My primary question is what are the blazes hurting?

    There are plenty of examples that come to mind that make the use of blazes worthwhile, but the only reason I can think of to eliminate them is that they aren’t very pretty.
    I also find it a little hypocritical to state, “One of the things that we are trying to accomplish in our Wilderness Areas is to leave them as natural as possible,” while also maintaining a network of roads (many of which have very unnatural gates, culverts, etc.) in the same “wilderness areas”. There are far more roads in the national forests than trails.
    For the record, the roads don’t bother me. It’s finding ways to use federally funded budgets to do useless things like remove blazes that bugs me. In a few years the same people will probably request a beefier budget to paint blazes for the sake of public safety.


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    There are far more roads in the national forests than trails.


    that is true except for national forests and wilderness areas are two separate entities.....

    while wilderness areas are in national forests, there's separate rules between wilderness areas and national forests....

    cant build roads in wilderness areas and the roads that were there when the area became wilderness are not being maintained and trying to get back to a natural state...........

  16. #16

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    No man made structure shall be permitted in a Wilderness Area either.

    I remember hiking the Odum Scout trail in Cheaha (as a scout) and being caught in a freezing rain storm.
    We slept in a shelter at the interception of the Pinhoti/Odum/Silent trail. Woke up the next morning ice everywhere.
    Bottom half of my sleeping bag frozen solid.

    That being said, the shelter has been relocated outside of the Cheaha Wildernes Area to the C. Silent trial upon it being designated as a wilderness area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    wonder how they will remove the blazes?
    It's the Forrest Service, they'll just cut the trees down, No more blazes, problem solved!
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNhiker View Post
    that is true except for national forests and wilderness areas are two separate entities.....

    while wilderness areas are in national forests, there's separate rules between wilderness areas and national forests....

    cant build roads in wilderness areas and the roads that were there when the area became wilderness are not being maintained and trying to get back to a natural state...........
    This is an important distinction that I had overlooked. Thanks for the comment.

  19. #19

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    Lots of interesting discussion. It looks like some of the Dugger Wilderness extends beyond the National Forest (which I never noticed before).

    Here are a few maps of the area.










  20. #20
    Registered User SteveJ's Avatar
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    This is nothing new.....I was planning a Boy Scout hiking trip on the Odom/Pinhoti about 10 years ago, and called the ranger station to propose a scout project of refreshing the blazes while we hiked. I was told then that they did not plan to renew the blazes, and that anyone in the back country should be able to find his/her way through the wilderness with a map and no blazes....
    Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.

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