Going Tent/tarp-less

[illabelle]

DH,
I went back and looked at your opening post on this thread. In your signature line it says 'GA-ME 05, GA-ME 08'.
This implies you're a two-time thru-hiker, or at minimum you've attempted a thru-hike twice.
This information makes your question UNBELIEVABLE! I dislike when people on WB jump all over somebody that says something dumb, but this move invites a good stomping! Why on earth would you ask such a question! Are you serious?
(And yes I checked to make sure we weren't in the Hiking Humor forum.)

[Ladyofthewoods]

Connie.. I had no training on what to do to help this woman and was going by a Scout leader who happened to be there. I think she would say she was glad I, and the others, were there to help at all. I spent hours and hours helping this woman. She was thankful, at least.

[Connie]

Rubbing is harmful, if hypothermic actually.

Their heart can stop.

No jostling either. Set them down gently. No jarring motion. For example dropping a bit during a carry.

Another thing, there is actually rubbing the wrong way. I did not make this up. Toward heart or away from heart is important for the heart.

The fact is, Boy Scouts are reprehensible for the "lore" for "survival" they still teach.

For example, follow a stream.

No. Most small streams disappear in the ground, absorbed by the dirt. Many more streams are a bushwack, tiring the person who is making an effort to survive. The stream sides steepen, become a ravine. The forest duff is loose. The exhausted hiker tries to scramble out, tiring more and become exhausted.

The fact is, Search and Rescue look "in the drains" for dead hikers or dead hunters.

The fact is, unless you know the stream course and it does not wind around and around thru thick trees and brush, forget it.

[Connie]

Be prepared.

"They" got that right.

[PilotB]

I think we've been trolled by original poster.

[Lyle]

Very bad idea. I've arrived at full shelters a number of times, and not just in the thru-hiker bubble. Plus, some stretches of the trail are long between shelters, what would you do then? What if you just plain run out of energy before you make the shelter? What if you decide you want to camp at a particularly nice area? What if you twist an ankle, or get ill and have to bail down a side trail. Too many possible contingencies to not have some type of shelter with you.

You do not need a full-on tent, but you should have an adequate tarp and know the basics of how to use it.

[Ladyofthewoods]

Rubbing is harmful, if hypothermic actually.

Their heart can stop.

No jostling either. Set them down gently. No jarring motion. For example dropping a bit during a carry.

Another thing, there is actually rubbing the wrong way. I did not make this up. Toward heart or away from heart is important for the heart.

The fact is, Boy Scouts are reprehensible for the "lore" for "survival" they still teach.

For example, follow a stream.

No. Most small streams disappear in the ground, absorbed by the dirt. Many more streams are a bushwack, tiring the person who is making an effort to survive. The stream sides steepen, become a ravine. The forest duff is loose. The exhausted hiker tries to scramble out, tiring more and become exhausted.

The fact is, Search and Rescue look "in the drains" for dead hikers or dead hunters.

The fact is, unless you know the stream course and it does not wind around and around thru thick trees and brush, forget it.

You were under the impression I needed more instructions. I don't.

[Connie]

I didn't think so.

The topic "hit a nerve".

I was a part of the start of Mountain Rescue.

It is very painful, to me, Boy Scouts practically always have got it wrong. Of course, the person helped was probably not at any stage of hypothermia so it wasn't critical.

[Uriah]

Even a UL hiker needs the "10 Essentials." There's a reason they are essential... It's because they are ESSENTIAL.

The problem with this is that everyone has his or her own idea of what's deemed "essential." Sometimes an item might be more than essential, while at other times it's just dead weight. On the well-marked AT some of those ostensible essentials don't really quite fall under that category (i.e., a compass). Interestingly though, all ten of them can be carried and yet weigh next to nothing. I've been tagged an "ultra-lighter" because my skin-out/base weight tips the scales at under eight pounds. But I have every essential required, and then some. As written in a previous post...

The ten "essentials" I value are:
1) Wisdom (though I'm not quite there myself)
2) Knowledge of thyself (strengths, weaknesses, limits)
3) Knowledge of the goal and all that it takes
4) Knowledge of Ma Nature (terrain, weather, potential weather, etc)
5) Fitness (structural, aerobic, metabolic)
6) Ego (confidence in your ABILITIES, not your capacities**)
7) Lack of ego (i.e., a willingness to "fail" by retreating when needed, etc)
8) Water access and food supplies (regardless of metabolic fitness)
9) Knowledge of equipment (and Nature's equipment)
10) Equipment (clothing, fire starter, shelter, etc)

**Ability is measurable; capacity is a condition

I don't look at thru-hiking or hiking as risky propositions, though there's obviously some risk involved (just as there is in life, which always ends up the same regardless). What we see up here is an inverse relationship: that risk decreases as the wisdom and knowledge and fitness increase. Historically we've seen that equipment is not a panacea like its manufacturers want you to believe.

---

But again, as light as everything is nowadays, why wouldn't you carry it?

(Of course, that's one of the interesting things about the AT: one hiker might deem his or her 30-pound base weight as necessary, while someone else might carry a quarter of that.) It's fun to cross paths with some of the characters, except for the downright dumb or those hard-headed fools. I don't believe the OP is one of them...I think he was just inquiring, but like everyone else, I could be wrong.

[squeezebox]

My impression about hypothermia is a warm person on both sides of the cold person and as much insulation as possible. hot water bottles in the groin and armpitts.
In the hospital they ice people down for a cardiac bypass, to slow the heart down. to warm them up they use a hot air blanket. Like an air mattress with holes on 1 side powered by a hair dryer. ie. warm the whole body slowly, not too slow not too fast.

[bigcranky]

Please don't lump UL hikers in with this nonsense. You could be heavyweight and stupid just as easy.

Oh, yeah. I know. I was being intentionally ironic.

[Malto]

Oh, yeah. I know. I was being intentionally ironic.

I dropped the irony, it weighed too much.

[bigcranky]

I dropped the irony, it weighed too much.

I'm trying to make a joke with titanium - Ti-rony? - but it's not working. Alas.

[Feral Bill]

A minimal tarp weighs maybe 10 ounces, less for cuben fiber. A large poncho the same. That much weight can keep you alive, if not happy.

[Old Hiker]

Rubbing is harmful, if hypothermic actually.

Their heart can stop.

No jostling either. Set them down gently. No jarring motion. For example dropping a bit during a carry.

Another thing, there is actually rubbing the wrong way. I did not make this up. Toward heart or away from heart is important for the heart.

The fact is, Boy Scouts are reprehensible for the "lore" for "survival" they still teach.

For example, follow a stream.

No. Most small streams disappear in the ground, absorbed by the dirt. Many more streams are a bushwack, tiring the person who is making an effort to survive. The stream sides steepen, become a ravine. The forest duff is loose. The exhausted hiker tries to scramble out, tiring more and become exhausted.

The fact is, Search and Rescue look "in the drains" for dead hikers or dead hunters.

The fact is, unless you know the stream course and it does not wind around and around thru thick trees and brush, forget it.

I didn't think so.

The topic "hit a nerve".

I was a part of the start of Mountain Rescue.

It is very painful, to me, Boy Scouts practically always have got it wrong. Of course, the person helped was probably not at any stage of hypothermia so it wasn't critical.

Can't resist the troll: Boy Scout nonsense above.

Requirement #5 - First Aid Merit Badge:

Describe the symptoms, proper first-aid procedures, and possible prevention measures for the following conditions
Hypothermia Hypothermia occurs when the core body temperature becomes too cold. Ordinarily, the body begins shivering to regain lost heat. When there is no longer enough energy for this to occur, hypothermia begins and the victim will stop shivering and become confused or unconscious. Warming the victim's body may require extra clothing (or the replacement of wet clothing) or using a fire or body heat. Re-warming should occur over time (rather than suddenly) unless the victim's body temperature also dropped suddenly (i.e. fell into an icy lake). Rapid re-warming of a chronic hypothermia patient can lead to re-warming shock

NO WHERE does it say to rub someone's limbs. Just because one claims to be a "Boy Scout Leader" does NOT make his/HER information correct.

Don't tar the entire organization for one idiot's data.

As to the "follow the stream" info, please cite the OFFICIAL Boy Scout reference where you come up with this. I ALWAYS taught in Wilderness Survival: "STOP" (Stop/Think/Observe/Plan), first and foremost to STOP WHERE YOU ARE so the searchers can find you.

[soulrebel]

I remember hiking with a 19 year old eagle scout dude that was clean and sober that carried a 35lb pack with NO shelter. He made it all the way to Maine. One time he had to sleep under a friends hammock due to rain and lack of shelter space, but then again we were all friends after hiking 1500 miles together so it was funny. I personally wouldn't do it. I'd get a 4-8oz tarp or even a blue poly tarp from the hardware store. My other buddy hiked with a blue poly tarp and made it all the way to Maine as well. If you don't take a good shelter take an umbrella at least, maybe a good rain jacket, bivy sacks aren't all that great on the AT due to humidity. GL

[Connie]

I didn't "tar".

The fact is, SAR looks "in the drains" (their expression) along streams for "dead body recovery" (their term) because people believe that Boy Scout "lore".

No one else teaches it.

My mother was a den mother. I was in Brownies, Girl Scouts and later 4-H because there was no scouting in that community. The Girl Scouts never taught that old "lore". The Boy Scouts did. Even the Boy Scout magazine Boy's Life did.

Don't like criticism? Too bad.

I will also add this: I have four brothers. They got nothing from the Boy Scout badge program. They got badges, that's all. The badges are not earned: a cursory list not waiting for answers. The badges arrive, the badges are handed out.

So many people are dead because of bad information from the Boy Scouts information what to do when lost.

For your information, the first arrest in a National Park was a combined Boy Scout and Girl Scout group, that is supposed to be top level scouting. I was know about the arrest. I was part of the rescue.

The fact they were a Scouting group was supressed: nasty business, I say.

Protect scouting reputation? The reputation is the problem.

Must be right, it came from Boy Scout "lore".

Must be right, it came from a Boy Scout leader.

Must be okay? It was a SUL idea that had a long run on youTube: no shelter.

Let's have SUL. Let's have XUL. The only "disclaimer" you must have knowledge, you must have experience, without a word of that "knowledge" or "experience".

This thread started with taking no shelter.

Then, the account of the Boy Scout leader.

I do everything I can to bring helpful information to the forum.

It is why I participate, that and to find out how much people don't know so I can provide help.

[Lyle]

Connie,

I am no longer a fan of the Boy Scout Organization, in particular the National Organization.

I used to be a leader, camp staff, lead several contingencies to Philmont, counseled for multiple Merit Badge classes in areas such as Wildlife, Nature, First Aid, Wilderness Survival, Backpacking, etc. While I did not agree with EVERY concept they taught, your assessment of the organization is unjust and down right wrong. Yes, they are slow to change many of their teachings, but they do change and modernize.

I have no idea what outdated experiences you are basing your opinions on, but you are out of line. Perhaps your experience was with an extremely incompetent troop or council, but if so, they do not represent the vast majority of the Leaders and local staff that I have experienced. Most of the information I imparted to the scouts was up-to-date and accurate. Most of the local staff and volunteers do their best to impart current, honest information. Some bush craft and camp craft skills are still being taught to some troops, and this is generally unfortunate, but seldom are they life-endangering skills. Some troops just need to modernize - it's happening, albeit sometimes slowly.

As to your brother's merit badges. In all educational endeavors, one generally gets out of the experience what they put into it. Perhaps your folks should have stepped in if your brothers were just accepting their badges instead of earning them. They only cheated themselves.

[canoe]

I didn't "tar".

The fact is, SAR looks "in the drains" (their expression) along streams for "dead body recovery" (their term) because people believe that Boy Scout "lore".

No one else teaches it.

My mother was a den mother. I was in Brownies, Girl Scouts and later 4-H because there was no scouting in that community. The Girl Scouts never taught that old "lore". The Boy Scouts did. Even the Boy Scout magazine Boy's Life did.

Don't like criticism? Too bad.

I will also add this: I have four brothers. They got nothing from the Boy Scout badge program. They got badges, that's all. The badges are not earned: a cursory list not waiting for answers. The badges arrive, the badges are handed out.

So many people are dead because of bad information from the Boy Scouts information what to do when lost.

For your information, the first arrest in a National Park was a combined Boy Scout and Girl Scout group, that is supposed to be top level scouting. I was know about the arrest. I was part of the rescue.

The fact they were a Scouting group was supressed: nasty business, I say.

Protect scouting reputation? The reputation is the problem.

Must be right, it came from Boy Scout "lore".

Must be right, it came from a Boy Scout leader.

Must be okay? It was a SUL idea that had a long run on youTube: no shelter.

Let's have SUL. Let's have XUL. The only "disclaimer" you must have knowledge, you must have experience, without a word of that "knowledge" or "experience".

This thread started with taking no shelter.

Then, the account of the Boy Scout leader.

I do everything I can to bring helpful information to the forum.

It is why I participate, that and to find out how much people don't know so I can provide help.

Um, I don't think you provided what the guy asked for. Please give a quotes to what you continue to say about what the scouts are teaching. The myths and lure bs that you are talking about. I don't know what kind of troop you brothers were in but that is not the way scouts work. If they were in a real troop maybe there would not be so much lure and myth floating around in your head. The so many people are dead because of what the boy scouts teach...really...what planet are you from. So many... is that 1 or 2 or24. Define soo many. Then give me articles to back up your claim. That soo many are dying because of what the scouts are teaching.

[CarlZ993]

Nope. Don't do it. Not worth the risk.

I met a couple in Maine doing a long section hike (basically all of Maine) w/o a shelter. When they told me what they were doing early on, I highly recommended them not to do this. I kept bumping into them along the way. They were lucky until they weren't. Rainy day w/ a full shelter. They were in a pickle until someone staying in the shelter loaned them his 2-man tent to use. After that, they hiked early & fast & were generally the first people at a shelter spot.