Going Tent/tarp-less

[Booshay]

No need for a tent, a bunch of indoor campers on this site... you can easily build a shelter every night.

[bamboo bob]

No need for a tent, a bunch of indoor campers on this site... you can easily build a shelter every night.

You mean stop every night and build a shelter? Wow.

[Second Hand]

I met a lot of people who hiked the LT with no shelter. Now, there are less people on the LT and shelters every 5 to 10 miles so they are more likely to get a shelter.

A couple of young ladies who just graduated college had planned to stay at the shelter just north of the LT Inn, which had burned down. They ended up sleeping under a walmart blue tarp on a rainy night. They didn't mind and were positive all things considered.

I don't think the OP deserves to be beaten up on this thread as much as he has been. My advice would be to bring a tarp for emergencies and go for it.

[MisterQ]

I didn't "tar".

The fact is, SAR looks "in the drains" (their expression) along streams for "dead body recovery" (their term) because people believe that Boy Scout "lore".

No one else teaches it.

My mother was a den mother. I was in Brownies, Girl Scouts and later 4-H because there was no scouting in that community. The Girl Scouts never taught that old "lore". The Boy Scouts did. Even the Boy Scout magazine Boy's Life did.

Don't like criticism? Too bad.

I will also add this: I have four brothers. They got nothing from the Boy Scout badge program. They got badges, that's all. The badges are not earned: a cursory list not waiting for answers. The badges arrive, the badges are handed out.

So many people are dead because of bad information from the Boy Scouts information what to do when lost.

For your information, the first arrest in a National Park was a combined Boy Scout and Girl Scout group, that is supposed to be top level scouting. I was know about the arrest. I was part of the rescue.

The fact they were a Scouting group was supressed: nasty business, I say.

Protect scouting reputation? The reputation is the problem.

Must be right, it came from Boy Scout "lore".

Must be right, it came from a Boy Scout leader.

Must be okay? It was a SUL idea that had a long run on youTube: no shelter.

Let's have SUL. Let's have XUL. The only "disclaimer" you must have knowledge, you must have experience, without a word of that "knowledge" or "experience".

This thread started with taking no shelter.

Then, the account of the Boy Scout leader.

I do everything I can to bring helpful information to the forum.

It is why I participate, that and to find out how much people don't know so I can provide help.

The value of any Boy Scout Troop is of course highly dependent on the local leadership involved. As an assistant scoutmaster in my local troop, I find the sweeping generalizations in your post both inaccurate and insulting.

[perdidochas]

Just kinda wanted an overall opinion on not using a tent on the AT. Keep in mind this is during the bug-less season. I guess my overall concern would be getting to a shelter in a down pour and having no room available….which seems like a very realistic situation in late March in GA.

As I'm sure everybody else will say, it's foolish to carry no shelter.

[perdidochas]

Rubbing is harmful, if hypothermic actually.

Their heart can stop.

No jostling either. Set them down gently. No jarring motion. For example dropping a bit during a carry.

Another thing, there is actually rubbing the wrong way. I did not make this up. Toward heart or away from heart is important for the heart.

The fact is, Boy Scouts are reprehensible for the "lore" for "survival" they still teach.

For example, follow a stream.

No. Most small streams disappear in the ground, absorbed by the dirt. Many more streams are a bushwack, tiring the person who is making an effort to survive. The stream sides steepen, become a ravine. The forest duff is loose. The exhausted hiker tries to scramble out, tiring more and become exhausted.

The fact is, Search and Rescue look "in the drains" for dead hikers or dead hunters.

The fact is, unless you know the stream course and it does not wind around and around thru thick trees and brush, forget it.

First, BSA currently does not teach the rubbing method for treating hypothermia. They may have in the past, but they haven't in the last 5 years (I've been a BSA leader for five years, and never heard of the rubbing thing until this thread).

BSA also isn't teaching follow a stream anymore. (I had heard of that before).

I don't doubt that some leaders are teaching these things, but they aren't official BSA practice.

[perdidochas]

I didn't think so.

The topic "hit a nerve".

I was a part of the start of Mountain Rescue.

It is very painful, to me, Boy Scouts practically always have got it wrong. Of course, the person helped was probably not at any stage of hypothermia so it wasn't critical.

In the past, maybe, but so far you've told me two things that BSA supposedly teaches, which they don't. Please read up on what we actually teach before spreading lies about our incompetence.

[perdidochas]

I didn't "tar".

The fact is, SAR looks "in the drains" (their expression) along streams for "dead body recovery" (their term) because people believe that Boy Scout "lore".

No one else teaches it.

My mother was a den mother. I was in Brownies, Girl Scouts and later 4-H because there was no scouting in that community. The Girl Scouts never taught that old "lore". The Boy Scouts did. Even the Boy Scout magazine Boy's Life did.

Don't like criticism? Too bad.

I will also add this: I have four brothers. They got nothing from the Boy Scout badge program. They got badges, that's all. The badges are not earned: a cursory list not waiting for answers. The badges arrive, the badges are handed out.

So many people are dead because of bad information from the Boy Scouts information what to do when lost.

For your information, the first arrest in a National Park was a combined Boy Scout and Girl Scout group, that is supposed to be top level scouting. I was know about the arrest. I was part of the rescue.

The fact they were a Scouting group was supressed: nasty business, I say.

Protect scouting reputation? The reputation is the problem.

Must be right, it came from Boy Scout "lore".

Must be right, it came from a Boy Scout leader.

Must be okay? It was a SUL idea that had a long run on youTube: no shelter.

Let's have SUL. Let's have XUL. The only "disclaimer" you must have knowledge, you must have experience, without a word of that "knowledge" or "experience".

This thread started with taking no shelter.

Then, the account of the Boy Scout leader.

I do everything I can to bring helpful information to the forum.

It is why I participate, that and to find out how much people don't know so I can provide help.

What was the time period of the above? Also, there is no such thing as a combined Girl and Boy Scout troop. Maybe you are talking Venture Scouts.

[perdidochas]

No need for a tent, a bunch of indoor campers on this site... you can easily build a shelter every night.

So did you through hike the Appalachian trail that way?

[Wolf - 23000]

fastfoxengineering beat me to it but I will say it again, it is irresponsible and dangerous! There is no reasons why a long distance hiker, is not carrying some type of shelter. With the newer gear, it is fairly easy to hike the entire AT with less than a baseweight of 5 pounds total. It was done that way 25 years ago and it can be done again when gear is even lighter. 5 pounds on your back should not kill anyone.

Wolf

[dzierzak]

So, has Dirty Harry been back since the first post?

from his profile "AT 05-AME, Denali 06, AT 08-GAME"

trollin', trollin', trollin'...

[Connie]

I am sorry you are insulted: people are dead.

Nice hikers. People who love the outdoors. Heads of households. Young people.

Some things need to be spoken. I have.

Bad advice. Bad information, spoken as "authority".

It is just wrong. If that was all, it wouldn't necessarily need correction.

I notice you have your "back up" about Boy Scouts and not an ounce of concern about the people whose lives are affected.

I hear no concern at all.

Those young people who started their "summit" of Mt. Rainier from the foot of Nisqually Glacier lied. Their leader lied he had signed-in for the summit attempt. He lied he had spoken to the ranger. He lied he was not taking that route from the foot of Nisqually Glacier after all.

He put all the rescuers at risk.

Not only that, now, rangers since then act like policemen.

The Boy Scouts have a lot to improve. There is no sign of interest in improvement.

The law had to impose on scouting to get an end to rampant racism.

No, I am not a bit interested in smoothing it over.

The "lore" has to stop.

The SUL/XUL promotors need to be forthright with their "knowledge" and "experience" that makes SUL/XUL okay, as well, or, stop promoting it.

That's how I feel about bad information.

[CalebJ]

I am sorry you are insulted: people are dead.

Nice hikers. People who love the outdoors. Heads of households. Young people.

Somr things need to be spoken. I have.

Insulted? No. I'm angry. You've made wild claims about Boy Scout practices that are simply untrue. Have they, at some point in the past, taught techniques that are no longer considered best practices? Certainly, but it was based on what was believed to be the best information they had at the time. They've also moved on with the times, and no longer teach the same methods. Year after year, the scouting program (Venture, Boy Scouts, etc). gets young men and women outside and teaches them to appreciate, respect, and take care of the outside world. Along the way they teach ways to survive in it when things get difficult. They've been doing this for over a hundred years, and somehow you feel the need to publicly air your grievances about particular mis-steps they've made years ago. Get over it. They've learned their mistakes, updated their teaching, and taught improved methods to thousands of people. Perhaps it's time for you to move on as well.

[Old Hiker]

I am sorry you are insulted: people are dead.

Nice hikers. People who love the outdoors. Heads of households. Young people.

Somr things need to be spoken. I have.

<sigh> I know better but.........
'
1. These people are dead - it's sad. You are telling me EACH of these dead people told YOU that they were following BSA protocol when them died. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

2. "The first arrest in a Nat'l Park" - specifics, please? I find it hard to believe that from 1872 (Yellowstone created) until sometime AFTER 1961 (your alleged birthdate) there were NO, repeat NO, arrests in a Nat'l Park and you just HAPPENED to be in on the rescue? Please give dates and locations.

3. Still no specifics on previous questions, but I guess it's OK, because it's NOT from a BSA leader or organization, but from one of the creators of "Mountain Rescue". Must be true.

4. I'm really glad you can diagnose hypothermia from behind your computer screen.

Sheesh.

Back on topic: I'd advise against no shelter. I'm sure it can be done, but I was happy to stop wherever and whenever I wanted instead of trying to death-march from shelter to shelter.

To each his/her own, but if I'm in a shelter and you want me to pitch the tent I've carried this far (however far) so you can have a space, as Wesley said, "Learn to live with disappointment".

I'm finished.

[Connie]

I still hear follow a stream: I recently got another "live rescue" because I got a cooperative retired Sheriff to send out a rescue car on the trail and tell people near the small ravine, I suspected, to be on the lookout for the woman, to call her name if they were willing. She was found alive, long after SAR gave her up and had started the dead body search.

I think the people that promoted "follow a stream" should be pro-active about stopping it.

[Connie]

I was there at the start of Mountain Rescue.

I don't have to give "private information" like my accurate birthdate to a forum signup. I have given my accurate age, in the forum. I am 67.

It was I who told the ranger, who asked, where to find that scout group.

I think Forum participants should put you on their "ignore" list for your criticisms that show you care nothing about harmful bad information, and ridicule good information.

[Connie]

Yosemite National Park had problems over drugs, wanting to make arrests. Not making arrests.

No one had done it. There was research into the question. No one found a precident. It was in the newspapers.

Then there was the first arrest in a national park. I was there. I heard about it, first hand.

[Connie]

I think anyone should be able to have a reasonably comfortable bivouac, at minimum.

It is basic. It is necessary to do the minimum, at least, to provide for one's own safety.

Less than that, there are already state's fines for having rescues for reckless hikers.

[Lyle]

Connie, perhaps you should broaden your rant, check out this website:

http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/h...iking-lost.cfm

[Connie]

Nice link.

I will post it, again. Proof of how pervasive "lore" is, and, how it persists.

http://www.outdoors.org/recreation/h...iking-lost.cfm