convince me to go tarp and bivvy

[fastfoxengineering]

I'm interested in learning more about tarps and bivvys but I'm having some recollections as I read more into it. I will be using this ground shelter on the west coast on the JMT. That'll be my first hike out west. It'll be in August. I'm primarily a hammock hanger and have only owned a heavy 2 person tent.

For insulation I'll be sleeping on thermarest z-lite with a 20* top quilt.

I'm having a hard time comitting to a tarp and bivvy setup over a fully enclosed shelters. I'm really comparing a bivvy and tarp to lets say a zpacks solplex.

The solplex is what it is. A fully enclosed shelter and that's that. I take it out set it up and not worry about bugs or rain with the bathtub floor. But I can't cowboy camp if the bugs are horrid and if there isn't any bugs I'm stuck in full bug shelter.

With the tarp and bivvy (which I need to learn more about bivvys, I don't know which kind I would need) I can set up both, or just the tarp, or just the bivvy. That's ideal for someone like me. But what do you do when it's pouring out? Should I carry a waterproof bivvy or just a bug bivvy with a shallow bathtub floor?

Which option performs better in the wind?
Is a tarp and bivvy lighter than a solplex nowadays?
I know there's alot to learn when using a tarp, anyone have a good resource? I'm not worried about the learning curve, I want to learn.

If you have used a tarp and bivvy for a long time, can you please explain your system, weights, and any pointers you would have for a newbie.

I want to like the tarp and bivvy, but i'm scared it doesn't offer the protection of a fully enclosed shelter. Someone enlighten me.

[BirdBrain]

I went into the 100 mile wilderness with a tarp and bivy. Many tried to convince me that it was a poor decision. I did not listen. I called my wife from Sidney Tappen and asked her to go to Llbeans to get me a tent. I still have the bivy. Have not used it since Monson. It works for some. It did not work for me.

[MuddyWaters]

What is your intention for a bivy, i mean, why do you need it?
Bugs wont be issue.
You could take larger tarp, and no bivy.
Jmt is very forgiving weather. If it rains, it doesnt rain hard, often short.

Or, take solplex and sleep under sky when want to cowboy.

[Lyle]

I've never found the need for both. If you don't try to get the absolute smallest tarp you can, the tarp will protect you in most any conditions. Gotta pay attention to where you pitch it, and vary how you pitch it depending on the expected weather. My current tarp is the ZPack Solo Plus - 7 oz. I used it for the northern half of the JMT last summer, taking it back for the southern half this coming summer. Gave plenty of protection. If you are worried about bugs, just get a light bug net. Bivy is too confining, too heavy, and not necessary. At least that's my experience. You will need a ground cloth. I use the polycryo that Gossamer Gear sells. Pretty tough stuff, and cheap. Weighs about 1.5 OZ.

[Malto]

tarp/bivy My preferred option for western trips, not so good for the summer on the AT or anywhere where there is heat and bugs at night.

For Summer style trips a tarp and bug inner is far better than tarp/bivy.

[bigcranky]

The tarp/bivy combo was pretty popular among UL hikers for a while. The bivies were almost always NOT waterproof -- that's what the tarp is far. The bivies are breatheable top, waterproof bottom, with bug netting and a good DWR finish, so they keep the bugs off and prevent splash from wetting the bag. As noted above, they are really necessary only if you use a very small tarp. I had a 5x8 foot tarp and a homemade bivy which worked very well. The setup is quite versatile, as you note, because you can cowboy camp or sleep in a shelter with just the bivy, and add the tarp if it's raining.

So why don't I use it anymore? Because they are something of a PITA to actually use. With a very small tarp, there is no room inside to change clothes, or make dinner, or whatever, in bad weather. If the bugs are bad, you are stuck inside the tiny bivy all night long.

Now that enclosed tarp-tent style shelters are in the 16-24 ounce range, I don't see the need for the t/b combo. (Yes, you can get a t/b combo for half that, but it's really small and probably not that durable.)

Another option is a larger tarp, in the 8x10 range, and a bug head net. Better rain protection, but the same issues with being stuck in the bag in buggy areas.

Nowadays I use a small cuben tent for solo hiking, or my hammock. If I want to sleep outside, I just put down my groundsheet (which is a separate piece in my tent).

[Miner]

I've been using that combo since 2007 out west including the PCT and JMT. I think its the ideal summer shelter for the Sierra for high mileage hikers. If you only hike a few hours and like to spend a lot of time in camp, a tent is better.

My current setup weighs under 13oz. I use a MLD cuben fiber 6'x8' tarp for rain which rarely gets used. The water resistant (not water proof) bivy gets used most of the time. I throw my sleeping bag and pad in it and throw it down and my camp is setup. Packing up is also quick. I use it even when there are no bugs but I may leave the top unzipped. On the AT it was nice to have in the shelters on occasion when bugs were active, weather turned cold or a cold wind, and I used it as a lightweight sleeping bag when it was too warm for the quilt.

Not all bivies are the same. Some are more breathable than others and this can determine how sweaty it feels in warmer weather. For summer camping the ones with a full head net are better. For colder weather, the ones with a smaller face opening ate preferred. Good bivies can be found at Mountain Laurel Designs, Borah Gear, and Titanium Goat and Oware. Cheaper ones may not breath as well, but if you aren't too sure about keeping it, would be the way to go.

[Wülfgang]

So why don't I use it anymore? Because they are something of a PITA to actually use. With a very small tarp, there is no room inside to change clothes, or make dinner, or whatever, in bad weather. If the bugs are bad, you are stuck inside the tiny bivy all night long.

Now that enclosed tarp-tent style shelters are in the 16-24 ounce range, I don't see the need for the t/b combo. (Yes, you can get a t/b combo for half that, but it's really small and probably not that durable.)

Agree with bigcranky here. Most of us learned the hard way with a tarp and bivy. They sound so great on paper, but in my experience have just failed to deliver in a variety of conditions. My backpacking experience is almost exclusively in the mountain west.

The main reason why is that you can have most of the features of a fully-enclosed tent, and the versatility of a tarp and bivy combo in most cottage-made tarp tents these days. The TarpTent Notch is a great example. Removable bug bivy +bathtub floor, and storm-worthy tarp. So you can cowboy camp under a net if you please, sleep under a floorless tarp, or have what is essentially an enclosed tent if you need one. All for less than 2 lbs.

Bivys, as in sleeping bag bivys, simply dont work that well. They trap your moisture and condense, or they allow moisture in from the netted top portion.

Just like all backpacking equipment, though, there will be some folks that love it and some that hate it. Andrew Skurka did literally thousands of miles under a floorless MLD pyramid tarp.

[Turk6177]

I have been in the same thought process as you. I have come to the conclusion that I am going to try to switch to a groundsheet and tarp system as well (mainly for the weight savings). That being said, on the southern end of the JMT, many nights you will be sleeping where there is limited space and limited trees. Ensure you know how to put up your tarp using rocks as anchors and that it can really stand up during some healthy winds. Also, I disagree that it doesn't rain for extended periods on the JMT. Be prepared and be able to pick good camp spots to keep your stuff dry. Sometimes the rain was sideways. For me, I was thinking I could keep a head net in my sleeping bag with me if the mosquitoes are out at all at night. The bag would protect my body and the net would protect my head. On the JMT in August, in most places of higher elevation, the cool air at night should send the mosquitoes packing for the night. On the JMT, I used an MSR Hubba and found little problem finding areas to erect my tent (self standing with a small footprint). How much weight are you really saving anyway by using a tarp vs. an enclosed tent? (By the way, try to time your hiking days to camp at Evolution Lakes (beautiful) and while there, don't forget to watch a sunset from the outlet of the lake (water cascade), and there is a great waterfall on the uphill side of Upper Palisades Lake. That is another great spot to spend a few hours playing in the water. Have a great hike!

[Just Bill]

I'm a bit more old school- newer fabrics have blurred the lines on this topic.

To me the question was tarp OR bivy.
A decent pole bivy could do the job for pound or so, they were full waterproof but freestanding. Something like this- http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/sho...8_10000001_-1_

It used to come in yellow and weigh a good half pound less.

The whole point of a bivy was that you could throw down when and wherever you wanted. No stakes, on rock, snow, sand-no problems.
With the poles it was enough that you could roll over and read a book, change your shirt, even roll up your pad in there. When it ain't raining you can sleep without a net in your face.

A pole less bivy is called a body bag- for good reason. They suck for any extended period of time and will wet you out in the feet especially.

A tarp is a tarp. You bring a ground sheet. For bugs- hang a net off the tarp over your head. The tarp material itself used to be in the pound plus range easy.

That said-
All shelters are blending together and with todays lighter fabrics more and more makes sense.

A tarp tent is a nice evolution- you can pick walls (netting) and or floors.

Trekking pole shelters in general blur the lines too.

The only real difference is a bivy- Splash bivy- 6.5 ounces vs. a ground sheet- 3.4 ounces.
http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/bivy.shtml
http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/ba...undsheet.shtml

Looking at those two- it's kinda hard not to go with a "bivy" instead of a ground sheet.
A "splash" type bivy is just that- a ground sheet with a breathable top.
The breathable top solves the sweat issue, but requires a tarp for weather.
You can use a smaller tarp with a splash bivy, you also can cowboy camp as needed.
You get the "shelter" benefit of zipping up at night and not worrying about crawlies stopping by your bag at night- especially nice for western or desert campers.
No you don't get a great skeeter shelter, and you might want a scrap of poly cro (or your rain gear) to set your gear on.

A true bivy stands alone- most bivies sold today do not. In combo with an umbrella the BD bivy is pretty versatile- but in reality- it blows in a pouring rain. Granted that doesn't happen that often, there really isn't a great way to get packed up in a downpour. And for 1.75 pounds- you can damn near get a modern tent.

So a real bivy has lost it's relevance-

A small tarp rig and splash bivy for around a pound.
Or a Soloplex (or similar) for about a pound.

For you personally- probably a shelter based upon your previous comments and preferences.

For me- I kinda like the parts and pieces.

I'm also pretty lazy (or occasionally in a hurry) so I also still like a true bivy. No tarps, trekking poles, lines, stakes, etc. Throw down and bed down.

But Honestly unless you're on a speed hike or pushing dawn til dusk and don't mind a little discomfort few people will enjoy a true bivy. Nobody enjoys a bivy really- but you can accept one.

Most people will happily add ounces to-
Sit up, zip a door shut, store their gear in the shelter, have an enclosed space that isolates them from bugs but allows freedom of movement.

[Fredt4]

I've been using a bivy and umbrella combo for years. Used a tent in the AT when the bugs came out. I've used a bivy on the PCT several times on week long hikes. Using an umbrella allows me to leave the top of the bivy open to avoid condensation. On the AT I regularly had to dry the bottom of the sleeping bag due to condensation. Doesn't happen often on the west where it's much drier. When I'm expecting rain I'll carry a tent, but I haven't been caught in a major thunderstorm on the PCT. I've been in several thunderstorms on the AT over the years with just the bivy and the umbrella. It basically kept me dry, except that due to the blowing winds and driving rain I had to close the upper part of the bivy and had some serious condensation in the sleeping bag below the knees. I still prefer the bivy except at the beginning of the season when mosquitoes are in abundance. Wouldn't recommend someone start with just a bivy without a few shakedown during a stormy night on a weekend trip. It may become a life threatening situation if you can't stay dry, but I consider my rain gear as my backup plan.

[gcobb1990]

This was my set up on the JMT last year. No bivy. Wouldn't have done it any other way. Kept my head out the end to wake up to the stars. Only time I use a tent now is for winter. Had one night of bugs but once I was in the tarp they stopped bothering me, don't know why but it wasn't an issue and never has been.
10505478_10204984798482475_1925678189924490734_n.jpg

[fastfoxengineering]

This was my set up on the JMT last year. No bivy. Wouldn't have done it any other way. Kept my head out the end to wake up to the stars. Only time I use a tent now is for winter. Had one night of bugs but once I was in the tarp they stopped bothering me, don't know why but it wasn't an issue and never has been.
10505478_10204984798482475_1925678189924490734_n.jpg

What kind of tarp is that? and whats with all the rocks?

[gcobb1990]

I don't know what the tarp was (it was a friend's). My preference is the Integral Designs Slitarp 1 for silnylon tarps and homemade for cuben fiber tarps. The rocks are blocking the wind on that side.

[fastfoxengineering]

I see, I think I might make a cuben tarp soon and do some testing this summer when its good weather to start. I know there's gonna be a pretty good learning curve. I'm worried about water mainly. Seeing all these tents with bathtub floors has me worried. I know camp site selection is most critical.

A 7'x9' tarp and a ground sheet a good place to start?

[Odd Man Out]

I asked a similar question a few years ago and got some good feedback. You can read it here.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...highlight=tarp

P.S. - I ended up getting a tarp tent.

[tammons]

The only way you will know for sure is try it.
Buy a cheap sil tarp and MYOG a bivy and go for a 5 day hike.
You can MYOG a decent Bivy out of 1.25oz tyvek.

IMO if you are looking for the absolute lightest setup and can deal with a bivy and its constraints and want to fork out for Cuben then it might be worth it depending....

I also like to cowboy camp, but in the end I think a UL freestanding tent that is easy to set up/break down and offers protection from bugs and weather that I can actually sit up in and change cloths in etc make more sense.

If I am trying to go out with a 5# base weight then maybe a Cuben poncho tarp and SUL bivy makes sense but generally I find trying to cut a few oz off an already UL pack can be futile and if things go bad can be a huge problem.

If you like to cowboy camp and want some protection take along a 4oz cuben tarp or a poncho tarp and a head bug net in addition to your tent.

Lightest decently sized tarp is about 4.4 oz and the lightest bivies are about 4-6 oz.

[gcobb1990]

I wrote up some instructions on a tarp I made with cuben fiber: http://graysoncobb.com/2015/01/12/diy-two-ounce-tarp/. I've really liked it so far but I wouldn't have taped the edges if I were to do it again. And I'd use the 1.43 oz/sqyd cuben to reinforce the corners. I think 7*9 is definitely a good size for a tarp.