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  1. #1
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    Default Insight on pack weight (creature comforts and convenience vs ultralight)

    I've been trying to look at ways to cut weight with my pack. Below is currently where I stand as far as gear with some justifications for what I'm carrying as well. I'm shooting for a 30LB pack loaded with 3 days of food and 2L water but I'm not sure that's even possible without sacrificing some serious creature comforts. I'm also trying to find a balance between durability and lightness as well, in regards to a shelter and mattress. I love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from. I see people on here talking about how they have a 25LB pack that includes five days of food and water and I'm wondering how that's even possible. I do a lot of weekend hikes and plan do to some month long thru hikes next year so I'm trying to get things squared away in prep for the longer trips. In my opinion, once changing out my sleeping pad and tent for a lighter model, I may have found a realistic ideal balance between livability/durability and lightweight but I wanted to get some others opinions first.

    Arc Teryx Khyber 50


    - (2) 1L Nalgene Bottle
    - MSR Hyperflow
    - Arc Teryx Pack Shelter (Medium)


    - Clothes: (1) Columbia Silver Ridge Shirt, (1) Pair Hurly Phantom Bord Short, (1) Arc Teryx Candidate Shirt, (1) Under Armor 9in Compression Shorts,
    (1) Pair Wigwaum Socks

    - (1) Roll Toilet Paper
    - (1) Travel Size Hand Sanitizer
    - Small Trowell


    - Outdoor Research 5L Compression Dry Sack
    - MSR Hubba Hubba (tent, stakes, poles, fly, no footprint)


    - Outdoor Research 20L Compression Sack
    - Marmot Hydrogen 30 Long
    - Thermarest Compressible Pillow (Large)
    - Arc Teryx Beta AR Hardshell
    - Arc Teryx Atom LT Hoodie


    - Snowpeak Titanium Spoon and Fork
    - Snowpeak LiteMax Titanium Stove
    - Snowpeak Titanium Cook & Save
    - (1) 230 Gram Gas Canister
    - 1oz Bottle Dawn
    - Bic Lighter
    - Small Terrycloth


    - Maxpedition Anemone Pouch
    - 4oz Bottle Body Wash
    - Travel Size Toothpaste
    - Travel Size Tooth Brush
    - Travel Size Deoderant
    - Small Nail Clippers


    - Maxpedition Anemone Pouch
    - (6) Mini Fire Starter Logs
    - (3) CR123 Batteries
    - (1) Compass
    - Bic Lighter


    - Marmot Small Stuff Sack
    - First Aid Kit: (1) Roll Gauze, (1) Roll Coban, (5) Medium Bandaids, (5) Large Bandaids, (3) 4x4 Gauze, (3) 3x3 Gauze,
    (1) travel size sunscreen, (1) chap stick, (2) small vials super glue.
    - 50FT Paracord


    - Thermarest Neo Air Trail Lite (L)


    - Outdoor Research Durable Stuff Sack 20L
    - 2 Days Food


    One day of food is:
    Breakfast: (4) Packets Quacker Low Sugar Instant Oatmeal
    (3) Jiff Peanut Butter Packets


    Lunch: (1) Annies Deluxe Rice Pasta Mac & Cheese
    2 TBS Crushed Almonds


    Dinner: (2) Annies Deluxe Rice Pasta Mac and Cheese
    2.5 Oz Hormell Peperoni Minies


    Desert: Muscle Milk Pro




    Total pack weight with 2 days food and 2L water is 34.5 LBS.




    Places where I know I can lose weight are by upgrading my Thermarest mattress to a lighter model, upgrading my tent
    to a lighter model and by carrying the Annies Mac and Cheese that uses the powdered cheese instead of the sludge.
    The powdered stuff weighs 6oz per box vs. 11oz for the deluxe. Righ away I can see that by going to a Nemo Astro
    Air Lite 25L for my mattress and a Hilleberg Enan for my tent would result in a combined net weight reduction of 3.25 LBS.
    Past that I'm not really sure where else I could cut weight withough sacrificing living comfort.


    Some Reasoning behind what I carry.


    - I carry the Arc Teryx Candidate shirt and board shorts for wearing after I'm done for the day.
    I like to wash my clothes when possible or at least let them air out over night. It's also nice to be able to bathe
    or take a dip in a stream/river when possible.


    - I carry nail clippers as I've found these usefull for trimming pack troublesome nails or removing splinters,
    a small pair weighs practically nothing.


    - My food could probably be lighter but, I really enjoy a good meal while in the woods. We loose
    most of our creature comforts when in the woods and eating well is a way to keep me happy. I really love mac
    and cheese and find that it's a very versatile and calorie dense food. I don't mind eating it for both lunch and dinner as I can
    change the topping. I also carry a large amount of food as I need the calories. I aim for about 4K a day and with the
    above meal plan I am able to hit that number.

    - Two person tent. Most of my backpacking is currently done with my girlfriend but I'm considering lightening the load by upgrading to a Hilleberg Enan 1 Person tent.

    - Compression Sacks and other organizing sacks: I know a lot of ultra lighters advocate ditching the stuff sacks and other containers, however, I really like them for their ability to help me keep things organized. I I stuff the occasional shirt or jacket between stuff sacks to help take up unused space.

  2. #2

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    Just really (really!) rough numbers, but you can easily shave 2+ pounds with a new pack, 9 ounces switching to Platypus water bladders, couple ounces on a smaller wrap of TP, ounce on repackaging sanitizer into a smaller bottle, switch to Nano Sil dry bags for a couple ounces, it goes on and on and on. I think my old thermarest large pillow like you have weighs something like 10 ounces...my Klymit X-pillow is under 2 ounces and I like it better! The biggest (and most expensive as I'm sure you know) are going to be your pack, tent, and sleeping bag, but many of those smaller things I mentioned are pretty cheap and drop serious ounces (which add up to pounds).

  3. #3
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    Thanks Dochartaigh! I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well. That's probably about the one and only piece of gear I'm tethered too. My tent and pad are definitely getting changed out and I'll have to try the Nano Sil bags. I've considered the Platypus bladders so I'll probably pick up some of those. I'll definitely be looking into the Klymit X Pillow you're talking about, as my Thermarest actually weights 12 OZ!

  4. #4
    Registered User Turtle-2013's Avatar
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    I JUST came off a section hike where I hiked GA with the thru hikers ... with 2-L water, 6 days food, and 2.5# colder weather gear I was at 27.5 # ... in June, I will be at or under 25# without the colder weather gear. As I look through your gear there I certain things I simply don't bring, found that I never used them anyway. In other cases, I simply use lighter gear, 28 oz pack, 21.5 oz tarp-tent, etc. My BEST advice .... go out and see what you do and don't use, swap out for lighter if you can, leave stuff at home that you don't need. If you come home with too many consumables, or food (some extra is good, but not too much) ... you brought too much. BUT, NO-ONE can REALLY tell you what YOU don't need to bring, or bring as much of. You need to learn through your own experience.

  5. #5
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    As Dochhartaigh says, there's easily 2 pound on your pack (vs a ULA, 3 vs an Arc blast, you don't need a bulletproof pack if your load is light.) and 2+ pounds on your tent (vs something like a BA Fly Creek or maybe even a Copper Spur). The bag isn't bad though you could find 8 ounces with a zpack 20. Another pound plus if you go with a NeoAir Xlite pad. So, right there you're at roughly 28. Then it's all ounces. Quick look at things you don't need no matter who you are: Dawn (nothing to wash, cook in bags), deodorant (nobody cares about your stink), fire logs (carry a couple of cotton balls liberally doped with Vaseline), Not sure what the batteries are for but they go too, for 3 Days you don't new four ounces of body wash. One this I'd add here is some blister care. You could probably get in the neighborhood off 23-25 easy.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Splitter View Post
    Thanks Dochartaigh! I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well.
    Once you start dropping pounds and pounds from your pack weight you won't need an overbuilt and heavy pack anymore. The lighter weight packs (meant to carry lighter loads) will be just as comfortable for you at that point (and help you shave even more pounds...it's a vicious, but good cycle

  7. #7

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    25lbs with 5 days food and two liters of water is roughly a 10lb base weight. You can have all the comfort you'd want on the trail with a 10lb pack easy, but that is obviously subjective your specific definition of comfort and how fat your wallet it.

    Going ultralight doesn't have to be expensive, but with greater $$ comes greater comfort. If I could spend whatever I wanted on gear, I could make a ton of people jealous of how luxurious I'm living on the trail.. and yet they're carrying double the weight I am.

    Trust the new lightweight fabrics. There's plenty of research and proof that they are plenty durable and built for the long haul. There's a few tarptent contrails out there with a couple thru-hikes under their belt.

    ULA packs are lightweight.. and once again.. there are a few out there with 5,000 miles + on them.

    Usually a lot of weight can be saved in the smaller items you carry. Actually, a lot of weight is saved here once you stop bringing things all together. And I have found a solution for each of my smaller items that was at least 50% lighter, and most often than not served its function better... and guess what! sometimes... it didn't even cost any more money.

    For example, I carry 2x 1L gatorade bottles and a 2L collapsable platy softbottle. Cost = $15. Weight = About 4oz. I have 4L water capacity. And each of these items is plenty durable enough. My 2L platy has over 500 miles on it. And I usually exchange my gatorade bottles for new ones in town. They come with free gatorade! I never have to clean a water bottle.

    So my hydration system weighs half of a 1L nalgene, and costs less. And to me, serves greater function over a hydration bladder. I have no use for a hard nalgene bottle.

    This can be applied pretty much to everything in your pack.

    I've used a ton of Maxpedition gear in my short time here on earth. Everything from their backpacks to pouches and between. Good gear. I still have a short list of some of their pouches that I use when I'm out hunting. However they don't have a place in lightweight backpacking. Do you really need a 500denier codura pouch to hold your hygiene kit? Even worse, it is stored in the safety of your bombproof backpack.

    My hygiene kit rides in the outside mesh pocket of my ultralight pack... I use a hefty quart sized freezer bag as my stuff sack. It weighs very little, I can see everything inside of it, and I'm still using the same bag now for 250+miles. Furthermore, all though it has some pin holes, it keeps my stuff dryer than a maxpedition pouch would. I know a toothbrush or tube of paste doesn't get ruined if it gets wet, but my point is, freezer bags make great, lightweight, water resistant organizers.

    Ditch the two maxped pouches. A practically "free upgrade" in my eyes.

    Like I said, everyone's different, but I have found a lighter and more efficient solution that ended up being way cheaper in so many ways I kick myself for dropping money that now sits in a plastic tote.

    If you want to see how many lives luxuriously on the trail (gear wise) and has an ultra-light load, check out will woods (redbeard) gear videos for his AT and upcoming PCT thru hike. Granted he's spent a lot of money on gear, but check out how many luxury items he's got!... he takes like 3 spare shirts.. thats comfort!

  8. #8
    Registered User Tuckahoe's Avatar
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    Just a few of my personal thoughts...

    1) I would switch out the MSR Hyperflow filter for a Sawyer Mini. If for anything just the cost at $40 for replacement Hyperfilters. It would also save you about 4 to 5 ounces

    2) Why are you carrying 5 ounces of two types of soap? 1 to 2 ounces of Dawn works just fine for washing dishes and self. Carrying 1 ounce of Dawn for all uses gets you another 4 ounces saved.

    3) Why carry deodorant? A travel size is another ounce.

    4) The Snow Peak Cook and Save is about 8 ounces while a Imusa 12cm pot is 4 ounces.

    5) Why the mini fire starter logs?

    Its not big number, but you would drop about a pound right there.
    igne et ferrum est potentas
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  9. #9
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    Default

    Lots of good observations here already.

    Why spoon and fork? Ditch the fork.
    Instead of Dawn, Dr. Bronners. Friendlier to your skin and will do all your washing.
    Way too much gauze. Are you a knife fighter? Mebbe an ace bandage for sprains though.
    Ditch the trowel. Dig a hole with a trekking ole or a stick.
    Ditch the super glue. Get a little duct tape.
    Ditch the firestarter logs.
    Ditch the compass.
    Waht are the batteries for? Do you have a light that I missed?

  10. #10

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    On top of what everyones been saying. 5oz's of liquid soap!

    Here's the difference between the lightweight crowd vs the heavypackers.

    you look at us and go how the hell does your pack only weigh ten pounds. That's impossible and your crazy. We look at you and go why the hell does your pack weigh 30lb. That's rediculous and your crazy... Its a viscious cycle, but all in good spirit.

    but seriously.. I carry a 6ml (about 0.25oz if I'm correct) dropper bottle of Dr. Bronners for soap now. Its enough soap to last me a month on the trail. And I'm not completely frugal about. Bout two drops to clean my pot if just plain water won't do the trick.

    wait till you meet the guy who chews your ear off when he sees you dump dawn soap into the forest. And I'm on his side. I'll go with dr.b's, but some LNT extremists will argue that even biodegradble soap has no place in the wild. And you know what, I can't argue with them because all though I think a drop of soap is fine.. They are still leaving less a trace than me.

    and have you weighed your maxped pouches yet! I'm tellin ya man. Your soap and pouches weigh half what my shelter does!

    Get a tiny dropper bottle and some dr. b's and some hefty zip freezer bags and tell me if ya miss your old stuff.

    I know, I'm pushy. But lighten up! (pun intended) we are here to have fun

  11. #11
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    Very little to add. I agree with the posts above. I will add that most of the sacks are not needed. All of the stuff that needs to be organized in my pack would fit in a pint sized ziplock. It is in a cuben fiber pouch. My pot keeps all my cook gear in one spot. I can find my sleeping bag and clothes fine without a sack. No need to "compress" anything. It will be compressed enough once packed. The greatest creature comfort I can think of is to not carry heavy stuff. Any comfort derived from extra stuff is far outweighed by the weight of carrying it.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  12. #12
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    Thanks for all the great insight here guys! Lots and lots of excellent advice. Exactly what I was looking for. One of the things I love about this site and backpacking in general, everyone has something worth listening too.

    - The batteries are for my Surefire EB1 light that I carry on my person (in pocket)

    -Trade Dawn for Dr. Bronners

    - Get rid of compass (I have a gps on my phone and the trails are well marked)

    - Ditch the fire starter logs (although holding them in my hand id say they weigh about the same as the ziplock I carry them in, but I know, it all adds up)






    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #13
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    Also I posted this in another thread but it didn't get any responses so I'll throw it in here since we're kind of on the subject. I will be upgrading my tent sooner rather than later and while I love the Hilleberg Enan for its strength, durability and relative light weight, I do do a lot of backpacking with my girlfriend, way more than I do solo. Does anyone have any thoughts on the new Nemo Hornet 2P? At 2 lbs it seems like a great two person shelter and it would be nice too for when I'm solo as I'll have room to move around. I'd like to avoid tents that use trekking poles as I don't use them and even if I become using them down the road I don't want to be forced to always carry them.


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  14. #14
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    You're not going to be using the Surefire light enough to go through 4 batteries before you can get to town and buy new ones. The Surefire is way overkill anyway (a Black Diamond Spot headlamp with a single set of 3 AAA lithium batteries is far more useful and plenty bright enough), but if you take it, just bring the one spare.

    Yes, this is nitpicking about a very small thing, but when you start adding up all the little "just in case" things you end up with a heavy pack. Also note that this has nothing to do with "sacrificing some serious creature comforts." Most of what is mentioned above is little convenience stuff, not comfort stuff.
    Ken B
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  15. #15
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    The good news is there are lots of ways to reduce your pack weight, the bad news is it appears you are not ready to actually do that. The barrier to getting your pack weight down from your post does not appear to be gear but emotional comfort. It is common to reason why you may need something and convince yourself to put it back on the list. It is comfort in what you know.

    Like what you said about getting a lighter tent, you stated that "love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from." Most tents are made from syl-nylon even many ultra light ones. The same material as the MSR Hubba Hubba. Your reason does not make sense as the material is the same. A (very) few tents are made of cuban fiber, which is a great tent material that has proven itself trail worthy by surviving the thru hike. I find it a superior tent fabric to syl-nylon for various reasons.

    To drop your pack weight you have to be comfortable with it, you even use the word 'comfort(s)' in your title for this thread. It is comfort in change from what you know to the accepting of the unknown that seems where the greatest progress can be made in getting your pack weight down. It is not gear that needs to be looked at now, but more of a emotional need.

    My suggestion is to try to find and attend group backpacks from various groups and hiking clubs. See what they are using and how it is working for them. This was what I used to get ready for my thru hike. I signed up for every one I could attend and that helped greatly what gear I would take, what worked and want didn't work for me. Also great to meet new people. By backpacking with them you will see how it plays out along the entire hike.

    By seeing the different equipment used for backpacking trips used by other people in the group you should be more comfortable with it and thus make you more willing to try different systems.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    The good news is there are lots of ways to reduce your pack weight, the bad news is it appears you are not ready to actually do that. The barrier to getting your pack weight down from your post does not appear to be gear but emotional comfort. It is common to reason why you may need something and convince yourself to put it back on the list. It is comfort in what you know.

    Like what you said about getting a lighter tent, you stated that "love the idea of an ultralight tent but I don't love the idea of some of the materials they're made from." Most tents are made from syl-nylon even many ultra light ones. The same material as the MSR Hubba Hubba. Your reason does not make sense as the material is the same. A (very) few tents are made of cuban fiber, which is a great tent material that has proven itself trail worthy by surviving the thru hike. I find it a superior tent fabric to syl-nylon for various reasons.

    To drop your pack weight you have to be comfortable with it, you even use the word 'comfort(s)' in your title for this thread. It is comfort in change from what you know to the accepting of the unknown that seems where the greatest progress can be made in getting your pack weight down. It is not gear that needs to be looked at now, but more of a emotional need.

    My suggestion is to try to find and attend group backpacks from various groups and hiking clubs. See what they are using and how it is working for them. This was what I used to get ready for my thru hike. I signed up for every one I could attend and that helped greatly what gear I would take, what worked and want didn't work for me. Also great to meet new people. By backpacking with them you will see how it plays out along the entire hike.

    By seeing the different equipment used for backpacking trips used by other people in the group you should be more comfortable with it and thus make you more willing to try different systems.
    Thanks Starchild! In regards to the tents, I know most are all made of the same materials, it's the thinner materials that concern me. I've read where people had pine needles poking through the 20D floors of their BA Copper Spur and Fly Creek and that got me wondering where the line was really drawn between durability and just seeing how light something can be made and still be made to mostly function.

  17. #17
    Registered User q-tip's Avatar
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    My first AT pack was 40 lbs fully loaded. I got my base wt. to 15-16 lbs and have all the comforts I need. If interested, send me a pm with your email and I will forward gear lists with wt and cost. I literally researched every single piece of gear for lower wt options. You will see my complete kit cost $3,500. One can do it for less, but I bought gear for the long term.

    .

  18. #18
    Garlic
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Splitter View Post
    ...I want to keep my pack, I know it's a little heavier than some but one of the reasons I bought it was for it's durability, I find it to also be extremely comfortable and able to support weight extremely well. That's probably about the one and only piece of gear I'm tethered too....
    I know how you feel, but it might be time to change. Switching from my trusty six-pound monster to a two-pound wonder for my first AT section hike was a real eye-opener. I only kept that pack for a season or two before I ended up with a sub-one pound Gossamer Gear pack that only cost about $80 on sale. I remember being very leery of the (at the time) new silnylon fabrics, but that stuff is pretty cheap (good shelters for under $200 then, slightly more now), so I tried one out and never looked back. I got over 7000 trail miles on my first Tarptent Contrail.

    Another idea that should be reiterated--food and water management. For instance, on the AT, there was only one time on my thru hike that I carried two liters of water, yet most AT hikers talk about their pack weight "including two liters of water." I often carried none at all. I can hike ten miles with one liter. A one-liter bottle of water is the heaviest item in my pack, including the pack, so why carry it when I'm stepping over springs every few miles. Food is similar--most carry an extra day's worth, two or more pounds. Leaving that behind costs nothing and going a little hungry is a minimal risk for most.

    Someone said we pack our fears and in many ways that's very true.

    Everything I changed (or more importantly left behind) to make my pack lighter actually improved my experience, so I never saw it as "sacrificing any creature comforts." The miles hiked are easier and more enjoyable, I take more side trips, I feel better setting up camp and I feel better getting going the next day--where exactly is the sacrifice?
    "Throw a loaf of bread and a pound of tea in an old sack and jump over the back fence." John Muir on expedition planning

  19. #19

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    The one thing I’ll add is how you DON’T have to give up all those creature comforts, or to stop feeling uncomfortable with not having backups to your important safety items – and you can still be ultralight with your gear. It just takes some planning, thinking and creativity, trial and error, and yes, some money in most cases to go with the lightweight options which will give you comfort and piece of mind.


    For instance, my base weight is 9.22 pounds, and some of the “luxury items”, and “backup items” (which some may or may not consider luxury/backup) I carry are: salt and pepper and other spices, extra flashlight/headlamp (with spare batteries), full first aid kit with ace bandage and all, a 7.5 ounce true bushcraft knife, backup fire, fire starters themselves, backup water treatment, 3x different types of tape/glue, and even a cell phone charger (1.3 charges of my iPhone 5) and a spare t-shirt (again, many people wouldn’t consider an extra t-shirt a luxury item…)


    If you add in my real luxury items: Jerry Camp Chair with Klymix Pillow X for a nice cushy butt-rest a 750 lumen monster flashlight, nice warm fluffy hat, some more extra socks and underwear (oh so nice out in the wild!), 12 servings of alcohol, 2 different flavors for my e-cigarette with a backup atomizer, even a deck of cards and I’m only at 10.88 pounds!


    So you can see that ultra-comfortable and ultra-light is certainly possible. And FYI, this is all part of a super-comfy hammock camping setup as well (and no short/uncomfortable 9’ crappy “ultralight” hammock either, it’s a full 11 footer with bug net).

  20. #20
    Bluebird
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    If you are going to hike the AT, I don't see the need to have 2 L of water on your back. That's 4.4 lb. Mike Clelland's book (Ultralight Backpackin' Tips) has a provocative statement, which he credits to a friend: "If you arrive at a water source and are still carrying water, you've made a mistake." An AT guide book will have directions to water everywhere you can access it close to the trail. You might have the capacity to carry 2 L to handle situations where water resupply is distant, but typically carry less.

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