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  1. #21
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Yup, the supported/unsupported thing is kinda ironic.
    It appears that joey is supporting his unsupported stuff with his socks.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    It appears that joey is supporting his unsupported stuff with his socks.
    That's either some big socks...or not much stuff.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    That's either some big socks...or not much stuff.
    or they are....
    wait for it...

    ROCKETSOCKS!!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Yup, the supported/unsupported thing is kinda ironic.
    Yeah. Now there's a can of worms.
    "That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    Neither does the anyone doing the PCT or the AT. Caches are not allowed.
    You are wrong.

    I guess you did not actually read those guidelines you are quoting. Re: this part of them for reference..


    • Self-supported means that you don't carry everything you need from the start, but you don't have dedicated, pre-arranged people helping you. This is commonly done a couple different ways: You might put out stashes of supplies for yourself prior to the trip, or you might just use what's out there, such as stores, begging from other trail users, etc.


    You will note that it specifically allows the placing of caches. So my disagreement stands. This should not be allowed if we are going to have standards as it facilitates gaming the endeavor. No caches and no trail magic so everyone is on the same playing field.

  6. #26
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    This discussion is reminiscent of (pick one):

    A) A debate concerning the finer points of Talmudic law by three rabbis

    B) "Who would win a battle: A Star Destroyer or the Enterprise?" debate at a SciFi convention.

    C) "Pepsi vs Coke" when both are fizzy water, sugar and coloring

    D) Soy vs Seitan vs Tempeh at the Whole Foods in Boulder

    E) The perennial "sauce vs gravy vs ragu" discussion among people with a lot of vowels in their name and a certain upbringing


    Discuss.
    Last edited by Mags; 05-22-2015 at 14:56.
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  7. #27
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    Mags

    Hmm...well not at all really. Wrong type of analogies.

    More like the football inflation issue for the Patriots. Or a corked bat. Or the wrong kind of soccer cleats. Or the wrong restrictor plate on a race car. Or hanging off your equipment when doing a free climb.

    This kind of discussion always comes up around speed hiking as many have some mystic feelings about hiking and transfer them over to what is really a very different animal. Speed hiking/trail running is racing and it is all about how fast you are and how you do it just like the equivalents in any other sport. I think it is very healthy for that sport and the more defined it becomes the more status it will have and the more participants. Of course many will absolutely hate that idea as well.

    I do both of these activities. I sometimes just mosey along and enjoy nature. And sometimes I compete with myself (I'm too slow to compete with anyone else) and see if I can beat my best time. Same when I am swimming. Sometimes I just enjoy the feel of gliding through the water and sometimes I am about to pass out due to lack of oxygen.

  8. #28
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    Mags

    Hmm...well not at all really. Wrong type of analogies.

    More like the football inflation issue for the Patriots. Or a corked bat. Or the wrong kind of soccer cleats. Or the wrong restrictor plate on a race car. Or hanging off your equipment when doing a free climb.

    This kind of discussion always comes up around speed hiking as many have some mystic feelings about hiking and transfer them over to what is really a very different animal. Speed hiking/trail running is racing and it is all about how fast you are and how you do it just like the equivalents in any other sport. I think it is very healthy for that sport and the more defined it becomes the more status it will have and the more participants. Of course many will absolutely hate that idea as well.

    I do both of these activities. I sometimes just mosey along and enjoy nature. And sometimes I compete with myself (I'm too slow to compete with anyone else) and see if I can beat my best time. Same when I am swimming. Sometimes I just enjoy the feel of gliding through the water and sometimes I am about to pass out due to lack of oxygen.

  9. #29
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Hmm... I'd say rather appropriate, actually, based on your current and previous replies.
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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyoming View Post
    You are wrong.

    I guess you did not actually read those guidelines you are quoting. Re: this part of them for reference..


    • Self-supported means that you don't carry everything you need from the start, but you don't have dedicated, pre-arranged people helping you. This is commonly done a couple different ways: You might put out stashes of supplies for yourself prior to the trip, or you might just use what's out there, such as stores, begging from other trail users, etc.


    You will note that it specifically allows the placing of caches. So my disagreement stands. This should not be allowed if we are going to have standards as it facilitates gaming the endeavor. No caches and no trail magic so everyone is on the same playing field.

    The rule is.....match, or exceed, the standard set by the record holder.

    There is no officials, no hard rules, no governing committees, no official records, and no prizes.

    There is only a court of peers, and public opinion.

    The reason there is none of that other stuff, is because there is almost no one that really cares. Seriously. The number of legitimately capable and willing persons to pursue these things can be counted on your fingers for the most part.

    I find it to be very entertaining to follow, because i can relate to how hard it is. I think these things are in a perfect place, obscurity. They are pursued, in the real spirit of athletics, for only the sake of doing so.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 05-22-2015 at 20:00.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    The rule is.....match, or exceed, the standard set by the record holder
    I would have to agree with that statement.

    Matt Kirk still holds the self-supported/unsupported record for the AT and he posted his guidelines here. They are.

    • Walk into and out of resupply towns to purchase or pick up prepacked and mailed supplies.
    • Hike as a backpacker, carrying all food and equipment between resupply towns.
    • Follow the official AT route, no detours, road walks or alternates of any kind.
    • Do not have anyone follow, or provide support in a prearranged manner.
    • Do not get into a vehicle for any reason during the attempt.
    • Honestly and thoroughly document the attempt.
    • Practice Leave-No-Trace ethics.


    So, leaving caches of supplies along the AT for a self-supported record attempt would not be acceptable IMO. Also, being able to leave caches along the trail would give someone who has a lot of resources an unfair advantage. IMO.

  12. #32

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    I guess rules are necessary.
    But, I don' like the "no hitch-hiking" one.
    I started hiking i the 70's.
    Everyone hitched into town to resupply.
    When did it change?
    Possibly it was Scott Williamson who said he would not get into t a vehicle (???)
    Does that make it a given?
    Don't let your fears stand in the way of your dreams

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlehead View Post
    I guess rules are necessary.
    But, I don' like the "no hitch-hiking" one.
    I started hiking i the 70's.
    Everyone hitched into town to resupply.
    When did it change?
    Possibly it was Scott Williamson who said he would not get into t a vehicle (???)
    Does that make it a given?
    I agree that it seems to be the outlier of the list.

    I attempted an unsupported speed hike last summer and here's what I experienced. I walked the mile to and from the sterling inn in caratunk. Then, at the gap before moosilauke, I decided to hitch into town because I was hungry. and Boy did I eat. But I wasted a lot of time and fell of schedule. Then, in vermont, a store on the trail was closed so I hitched into Woodstock. I lost more time and gave up the attempt.

    Tony soprano said you make youre own luck.I think on an unsupported attempt it is important to make your own luck. When you hitch hike you are placing your hike in the hands of a stranger. It feel strange after such a self-contained hike. Maybe thats all there is to it, a feeling. its an aesthetic guideline, not a logical one. Hitching takes you away from the trail mindset and into the town one.
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  14. #34

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    Get rid of town time all together...make it just time on trail. To much variation and things outta ones control when you have to get off trail and go into town to resupply.

  15. #35
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linesman View Post
    When you hitch hike you are placing your hike in the hands of a stranger. It feel strange after such a self-contained hike. Maybe thats all there is to it, a feeling. its an aesthetic guideline, not a logical one. Hitching takes you away from the trail mindset and into the town one.
    To an extent I think you understand the root of the issue. The argument is two-fold-
    1-The no-hitching rule has a practical basis in Scott Williamson's PCT efforts. As a practical matter, resupply is much more challenging. Even if no "foul play" takes place in the form of arranging a ride, hitching is a crapshoot. One hiker may barely raise their arm and score a ride, one may wait for hours. To level this out across the board- simply eliminate hitching. Take it to it's logical conclusion and declare that you will not enter a vehicle for any reason.

    2- Your word choice was an excellent one; aesthetic.
    Matt makes an excellent analogy in his recent post- http://matthewkirk.blogspot.com/2015...y-on-land.html

    "Since 1990, a handful of great athletes have broken the 60-day mark. Each of them doing so without carrying his, or her own food and gear. On these supported hikes, crews met them along the way to provide aid. In contrast, Leonard traveled as a backpacker without any pre-arranged support from a crew.

    In the world of rock climbing, there’s a similar distinction between aid climbing and free climbing. In aid climbing, artificial support gets hammered, drilled, or placed along the route. In free climbing, only natural holds in the rock get used. The hiking equivalent of a free climb is to go self-supported, solely by foot."

    The climbing analogy is an excellent one. Our current debate reminds me of another. When "clean" climbing was proposed it was met with resistance. The choice was a moral one, had no practical value, and in fact presented a financial hardship for the company who originally proposed it. It was a hardline stance to respect the rock and protect it from harm. One eventually widely adopted to the point that reverting to aid climbing is now the stance seen negatively.

    An unsupported hike, record attempt or not, is a similar moral stance. Though we do little harm in the effort, the same respect, value, and mindset of the free climber is there. It becomes about the connection to the trail, the aesthetic value in choosing to enter the mindset of travelling as purely as possible.

    Perhaps at some point these efforts will garner more attention, but at this time, generally speaking; these are efforts of one. Your choices in how you pursue this adventure are what dictate the experience, which for the most part remains an internal one. In the grand scheme of things such distinctions are subtle at best, insignificant at worst.

    However, it seems that when attempted we all seem to reach the same conclusions. Much like the climber who pulls on some protection and "invalidates" their free climb we find we feel cheated in some way. That the purity is lost, the challenge soured, and victory over ourselves is hollow. Even now Matt seems to express some regret that he did not forgo mail drops. While I personally disagree with this, and no-one stands to take away his hike for this reason; somehow it itches at him. He feels deep in himself that it could have been "cleaner".

    On the surface this is easy to discount, as are all the "rules" and guidelines. But I think what many fail to understand about these efforts is the purity and respect involved. The deep love for the trail as a part of oneself expressed in the hike. There are few who watch a climber like Lynn Hill and fail to be moved by the poetry, purity, and beauty in her motion as she flows with the rock, not on it. Only a heartless bastard could watch JPD's TED talk as she expresses how completely and truly she appreciates her own beauty by finding harmony on the trail, by finding true beauty. http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/hik...n-pharr-davis/

    Ultimately such efforts are not about time or place, but beauty. A misplaced step, incorrect line, or betrayal of your internal sense of harmony is what spoils the aesthetics of the total picture. Creates an errant brushstroke that spoils the composition. These are things that generally only the artist themselves understands. The picture in their mind they struggle to bring to life.

    For me personally, I believe that failure to find this harmony is all that negates an attempt, and what dictates success of failure. I was never a world class climber, but occasionally flowed through a few climbs that will still stand clearly and vividly in my soul until I die. I did not set a record on the Long Trail, but I speed hiked for a bit with such soul stirring beauty that I call the effort a success.

    Further I believe that the trail itself reaches out to these folks. That the effort is mutual when the harmony is pure. There is a large margin of what we commonly call luck involved in these efforts. You can call it what you like. I find that there is little luck involved. You are either right with yourself or not. In doing so, you then have a unique opportunity to be right with the trail itself. Not the privilege or the right, but at least the opportunity.

    When that happens, the beauty possible is limitless.
    Impossible things are possible.

    You don't need to set a record, or understand the rules.
    But there are rules, written or not.
    Understand them, respect them, and live them.
    You'll then be given an opportunity to walk in beauty.

    Perhaps this will change, perhaps it will just become a fast hike.
    It's unfair to say so, but i think perhaps that's the reason qualified folks don't always get it done.
    Why otherwise clear winners lose, and unlikely one's somehow, impossibly, succeed.

    For the time being at least, Jenn, Matt, Anish, and Scott are the one's records have been given to.
    In looking closer you will see only one common thread among them; the purity, moral stance, and beauty of their hikes. In reading this they will likely shake their heads in humility and fail to see this in themselves. You will find this harmony in others who have made similar efforts in nature, regardless of records or rules. You may call it luck, or good fortune, or simple hard work paying off.

    I call it mutual respect from trail to traveler.
    I think without it, failure is guaranteed.
    With it, the competition is over, the battle with oneself is over.
    You love yourself and the trail.
    And the trail loves you back.

  16. #36
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    I'd just like to jump in with my two cents. After experiencing what it is like to attempt an unsupported hike, it's nowhere near as ambiguous or as complicated as these discussions always seem to make it. First off, no hiker is going to gain an extraordinary advantage from improvements in logistics over say what Matt Kirk did. You can plan a hike to death but being unsupported means you can't call up your wife at the next road or shop on amazon or send yourself a bounce box. It means when your shoes explode 200 miles from the next easily accessible outfitter, you have to deal with it. When you made a mistake and wish you had brought that piece of gear you left at home, you suck it up and deal with it. It means when you run out of food 30 miles from your resupply, you deal with it. You can discuss your food shortage and hope they have food to spare and are willing to share or you can hike to a distant resupply alternative that you seriously wanted to avoid. It's brutal and lonely and the community of FKT chasers is not a group looking to cherry pick the rules and manipulate the logistics to gain an overwhelming advantage. Yeah you try to pick mail drops carefully, but when you head out there is the overwhelming realization that no one can help you. And when I was out there and running low on rations, no one was there to help. If by some chance another hiker had better luck than me and a nice hiker donated a bunch of food, then great luck! But they'll get clobbered by some other bad luck and be back to square one. These discussions serve a good purpose, but I just wanted to say that while a self-supported thru-hike may look fishy in theory, it's a solid category in reality, dependent on luck and planning just the same as a supported hike.

    As you all have already said, you follow the rules of the person whose record you are trying to beat; it's no more complex than that.

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