I keep hearing stories of bad hiker behavior

[Dogwood]

Another story to tell.

No doubt, bad hiker behavior happens. It's not to be ignored. But it is not what we should be majoring on. It DOES NOT accurately represent the majority of GREAT behavior and positive characteristics we see from hikers! By spot lighting the dramatic sensational negative behavior we lend more credence to it and the perception it is rampant or universal- WHICH IS TOTAL BS! It's sad that members of the hiking community haven't realized this by now contributing themselves to a lesser opinion of the hiking community by their continued focusing on and spreading of negative hiker behavior stories. Yet, just like on TV, in Newspapers, etc, it's what some forums and people CHOOSE to focus on. Like flies drawn to shart the dramatic, sensational, and hugely negative is what many are attracted to.

If you must be a fly......I say what is MUCH MORE "news" worthy and productive to all, including the hiking community, is extoling the ABUNDANT - VERY ABUNDANT - DRAMATIC, SENSATIONAL, and POSITIVE attributes, characteristics, and behavior of the hiking community, including thru-hikers! Instead of spewing a never ending stream of garbage complaining, whining, and much finger pointing/blame game playing spot lighting the negative around here there needs to be an outpouring of recognizing the MUCH MORE ABUNDANT good in the hiking community, what it is achieving, it stands for, and CONTRIBUTES.

[Dogwood]

We create what is perceived as the norm! With constant telling and endless rehashing ad nauseam of negative hiker behavior it contributes to the perception that this is the new norm.

It's my best guesstimate that doing this also attracts others into the hiking community that are prone to questionable behavior. SO, instead of playing this finger pointing/blame game, if it is true as Muddy Waters stated, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing" and as Donde stated, "something has started to attract the wrong crowd more and more" what role do YOU specifically play into this scenario?

[Wyoming]

I'm sorry Dogwood but I just can't stand arguments like you just put forth above. To me your argument is like saying only a few people rob gas stations so we should only talk about the good guys putting gas in their cars and buying a coffee. And if we ignore the robbers they will magically disappear.

The reason this subject comes up so often is that the bad behavior is just not rare enough. It is really negatively impacting the environment for thru hiking. Especially along the AT. Business, towns, BSP, etc are reaching their limits of putting up with it. We will pay a price for their bad behavior.

To me the only meaningful discussion is what can we do about it and how can we change/stop such behavior.

My personal opinion (which mirrors one above) is that one of the biggest things we could do would be to contact all of the Trail Angels and talk them into ceasing and desisting. No more food, rides or water caches. If we could get rid of this behavior it would go a LONG way towards getting rid of the very large number of those don't belong out there on the trails. It is my observation that almost all of those with the worst behavior are the ones most dependent on freebies - it sort of goes with their character - or lack thereof.

The Trail Days type of celebrations are also a big generator of problems and they help to create this screwed sense of entitlement many trouble makers have. Getting rid of the events is, of course, very difficult as people are making money from them and will not want to lose revenues.

One could point to the plethora of Hostels as being a factor as well. But they are businesses and money is involved there also.

I am certain some will howl at the above and others might have other options for fixing things. But I do think we as a community need to work on this a lot.

[Dogwood]

You have it twisted Wyoming! Please reread and consider more carefully should you disagree. I never said we should only talk about the good guys.... and ignore the robbers(bad guys)...they will magically disappear.

I said, "No doubt, bad hiker behavior happens. It's not to be ignored. But, it is NOT what we should be majoring on. It DOES NOT accurately represent the majority of GREAT behavior and positive characteristics we see from hikers! By spot lighting the dramatic sensational negative behavior we lend more credence to it and the perception it is rampant or universal- WHICH IS TOTAL BS!"

If I need to break it down more clearly, I'm saying stop spotlighting and sensationalizing this crappy behavior. Most of the AT hiking community surely gets it by now. SOME AT hikers, a small minority, SOMETIMES, behave badly. WOW, what NOT a surprise! That could be said about any category of people. If you think I'm wrong PLEASE inform us all of this haloed angelic people. The ceaseless bitching, thumping of chests, and taking a 'it's them over there that do all the wrong' finger pointing attitude contributes little to nothing positive.

Let us not forget, as it certainly seems many have, the hiking community overall, and even more specifically the AT hiking community, is largely a GREAT GROUP OF PEOPLE REPRESENTING WONDERFUL ATTRIBUTES WITH MUCH TO POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTE! Let's not give that a glancing nod! If some members of the hiking community are having difficulty recalling and relating, IN ABUNDANCE, the good that it achieves and represents, and that it can continue to represent, perhaps, it is these same individuals, that are adding to the very problem they are bitching about.

At least you, and a few others, have offered some suggestions that could possibly diminish negative hiker behavior. However, most of these suggestions are based on what someone else should be doing. For all those in the hiking community that bitch about hiker behavior how are you personally acting to diminish these negative hiker behavior accounts? That's where negative behavior can change, right where YOU are.

[sbhikes]

I'm only reporting that my mother, who lives near Chester and who spent every winter the past 7 years talking about how she couldn't wait for all "her" hikers to return next summer, and lamented the couple of summers she "had to" go to Alaska instead of be with her hikers, has reported that local businesses are upset with hikers this year and that she herself thinks it is just way too much and that a Southern California trail angel who stayed with her thought the times of hosting hikers in your house were coming to an end. I'm not making anything up. Something about this particular year is different, different enough my mother at the half-way point noticed it.

My mom only hosts hikers in her house by invitation. I guess one night she somehow ended up with 21 people staying at her house. 21 hikers sort of wore her out, plus the people calling at all hours, so she had to take a break. She even posted a nice message to facebook (and probably left the same on a note at the trail) informing hikers that she lives 25 miles from the trail so don't call her for a ride to the hotel that's only 3 miles from the trail. Part of this is all her fault for being so helpful. I told her she does way too much a long time ago, but she just loves meeting everybody. She says she has never met more interesting people. This year there are just way too many of them I guess.

A sort of group behavior, us-them thing takes over when people who are feeling like they're special and outside this boring society are in groups. Don't say you didn't feel that way just a little, even those of you who were solo. Imagine having that feeling and being in a large group. It's probably likely you'd be willing to do things you might otherwise never do.

I did a small section near Bucks Lake this year and it was like following a trail of barely buried toilet paper the whole way. Many of the hikers this year have no wilderness skills.

[Coffee]

A proven mechanism of ensuring that the interests of all constituencies are met is a market system where money is exchanged for goods and services. Customers (hikers), and suppliers (businesses) will only transact if the transaction is mutually beneficial, all things considered. This means that a hostel, for example, is going to charge a rate where the owner is happy with the income generated from hikers and providing necessary services. Hikers will either patronize the hostel or they won't depending on how much they value the service. If the hostel owner begins to feel like it isn't worth it anymore, he or she will probably raise prices before going out of business. Then hikers who value the service at the higher price will continue to use the service and those who don't will move on. If not enough hikers value the service at the price the hostel owner wants to charge, the business will probably disappear.

When goods and services are given away for free, the mechanism described here ceases to regulate behavior. "Free" generates almost unlimited demand unchecked by availability of resources. When done in small numbers, trail angels may be willing to extend their generosity and not feel taken advantage of. This will not be the case when dozens or hundreds of hikers pass through your home - it probably becomes so anonymous and overwhelming that trail angels start to feel taken advantage of. Hikers in large groups with no sense of decency, perhaps encouraged by herd behavior, can begin acting poorly and then the whole situation spirals downward.

I think that we are seeing SOME of this behavior but I still agree with Dogwood that the good far outweighs the bad, based on what I've seen on the PCT and AT - the AT as a section hiker and the PCT on a thru attempt that I cut short.

I appreciate the kindness and generosity of trail angels very much and always try to donate what I think the market value of the service would be in a free exchange. Many angels don't want money and you have to respect that as well. But my preference really is a market system where I exchange money for goods and services. This, in my opinion, is the only way to have a SUSTAINABLE system of hiker services available along the trail. Relying on trail angels is not a reliable and sustainable situation. The weariness of long serving trail angels this year may only be the beginning and eventually hikers will have to pay their own way LIKE ALMOST ALL OTHER TRAVELERS! This isn't really the end of the world. Hiking will still be a cheaper form of travel and recreation than any other. So it is mostly all good - despite the problems we hear so much about.

[Mags]

When goods and services are given away for free, the mechanism described here ceases to regulate behavior. "Free" generates almost unlimited demand unchecked by availability of resources. When done in small numbers, trail angels may be willing to extend their generosity and not feel taken advantage of. This will not be the case when dozens or hundreds of hikers pass through your home - it probably becomes so anonymous and overwhelming that trail angels start to feel taken advantage of. Hikers in large groups with no sense of decency, perhaps encouraged by herd behavior, can begin acting poorly and then the whole situation spirals downward.

An apt book perhaps by Mr Silverstein?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giving_Tree

I suspect more than a few trail angels, be it the AT or PCT, felt burnt out in the very way you describe.

[Jeff]

My wife and I operate a hiker hostel on the Appalachian Trail in Manchester Center, VT.

We have hosted thousands of hikers over these past 8 years and can count on one hand the number of problem hikers. We also have a NO alcohol policy.

[Mags]

Your hostel is a business however vs a free, on-the-house train angel service as seen more-so on the PCT. Goes along with what Coffee said.

More so than the no alcohol policy, charging people $30 probably helps weed out some of the party types and, to be honest, moocher. (esp by Vermont)

Nothing wrong with a hiker-based business. A fair price for some great services is what benefits hikers, the trail and the proprietor in the long run (walk??).

I think that is a better solution in the long run (As Mr. Coffee aptly stated)....just a different beast from the trail angel based hostels less common on the AT today.


EDIT: And a free pint of B&J???? A pint of ice cream is $5 alone. Damn..I may have to hike the LT again and say "HI"

[Wyoming]

Well what Coffee said!

Dogwood. No I don't have it twisted. I read everything you said and I have considered it carefully both this time and many times before. I am fully aware of the ratios of good to bad and all the other things you said. I understand exactly what you are saying. I just flat disagree with what you said you thought should be done. I still do. It puts the emphasis in the wrong place as far as I am concerned. The only way to deal with trouble is to deal with it.

So feel free to approach the situation in a way which is comfortable for you. No one is going to try and stop you. I will not be coming with you as I think the opposite tack makes a lot more sense.

[sbhikes]

Well, in the case of my mother, the problem hikers were at establishments that do charge money. The hikers were stealing and destroying property. It seems that hikers stole or destroyed property or otherwise caused nuisances in So Cal, too, specifically at the Soledad Canyon RV park which says they no longer want any hiker business. It's pretty bad when they don't even want your money. My mother doesn't accept money (although she finds it hidden around the house) and her only stated problem was that she couldn't keep up with it at her age.

[Another Kevin]

My wife and I operate a hiker hostel on the Appalachian Trail in Manchester Center, VT.

We have hosted thousands of hikers over these past 8 years and can count on one hand the number of problem hikers. We also have a NO alcohol policy.

Thanks for your toleration. If I ever do the LT, I'll have to be sure to look up your establishment. Your list of services looks phenomenal. (The LT is on my bucket list, and demands a zero in Manchester so that I can make a side trip up Equinox Mountain to visit a friend's remains. He was one of the pilots aboard the forty-year-old plane crash up there.)

I happened to be in Manchester Center over the weekend, just to stop off at the Rite-Aid on my way home from Weston. (My wife and daughter wanted to make their annual pilgrimage to the Vermont Country Store, and my wife found herself suddenly in need of a drug store.) I noticed that the Rite-Aid and the bus stop had numerous thru-hikers. I didn't speak to any of them, they were wrapped up in their own conversations and I was busy. I wondered where they were staying in town.

[pafarmboy]

My wife and I operate a hiker hostel on the Appalachian Trail in Manchester Center, VT.

We have hosted thousands of hikers over these past 8 years and can count on one hand the number of problem hikers. We also have a NO alcohol policy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....Jeff's hostel is the best "service you get for the money you spend" deal on the whole trail.

[Dogwood]

Hmmm? So, you are saying by going round and round, talking, talking, rehashing, emphasizing, emphasizing some more, playing finger pointing games, over dramatizing, and exploding a view of the negative is dealing with, solving, or diminishing negative hiker behavior?

Please explain how that approach solves anything or is dealing with it.

[Dogwood]

We're going down the wrong road.

You do have it twisted in that you suppose I wish to ignore bad hiker behavior sweeping it under the carpet when I implicitly stated the opposite. I believe you misinterpreted my intent by narrowly reviewing limited posts with limited content on this thread and mistakenly assumed this is my approach to bad hiker behavior as if that is it...period. I have shared many times on different threads, directly and indirectly, in detail here on WB and elsewhere, what I espouse as possible root causes of bad behavior, bad thru-hiker behavior, and specifically bad AT thru-hiker behavior, and ways to possibly decrease it. Notice I said decrease it, NOT eliminate it? I'll gladly share them again if you like. I want what you want - to diminish bad behavior.

Let me make plain, I don't recognize hiking behavior in the U.S. in a very narrow jaded sense just as it occurs on the AT or just as it occurs on the AT and PCT or specifically of AT thru-hikers or during cherry picked times of peak AT or trail usage or at obvious AT choke points or at places where some contention has already existed, etc. No, I'm not that jaded to view backpacking or the hiking community, any hiking community, within that narrow perspective! I too would have a negatively skewed opinion of the hiking community if I was to have gained my perspective under those limited scenarios. I recognize hiker behavior on a larger scale across all the 44 states I've hiked during all 4 seasons as a day, weekend, section, solo, group, group leader, TCer, and many time thru-hiker of many different trails and routes, among different Nationalities, creeds, different religious or no religious persuasions, colors, of different economic and political status, genders, sexual orientations, etc etc etc, certainly not based only on what I've observed on the AT or based ONLY on the worst of the bad hiker behavior that I've witnessed.

At the same time, I think it would be wise to make some distinctions in hiker behavior for different regions of the U.S., different route and trail cultures, different seasons, different segments of the hiking community, etc as it certainly is NOT always the same! I am starting to perceive some parallels in some questionable thru-hiker behavior spilling over onto the PCT as it occurs on the AT though. Maybe, that's just my perception though? Maybe, it seems that way because negative accounts of bad thru-hiker behavior sometimes breeds additional negative accounts and behavior? I think I know some reasons why it's occurring but I also sincerely believe the PCTA and PCT community are well aware of PCT trail culture too and are making meaningful strides in diminishing some issues BEFORE they get to be huge problems. IMHO, in some ways the PCTA, PCT community, and PCT culture is further ahead than the ATC, AT community, and AT culture in addressing potential trail issues like bad behavior with some of their meaningful educational efforts of section and thru-hikers, responsible mentoring of next generation thru-hikers by previous thru-hikers, building of PCT hiking community camaraderie where current section and thru-hikers meet with trail angels, gear companies, almost all who are represented by those with a strong varied hiking/outdoors background, trail advisors, trail legends, etc, permits, quotas, etc. Also of some significance, these interactions, building and fostering of a community, and educational efforts are occurring near the the onset of NOBO PCT thru-hikers journeys reaching a majority of PCT thru-hikers. For the most part, these things don't regularly occur for AT NOBOers and certainly not early in their NOBO journeys. IMHO, AT thru-hikers aren't being sufficiently reached.

To make it abundantly clear, again, I don't recognize bad hiker behavior on the AT or the PCT being as rampant as some make it seem. It's obvious some here, and maybe the world in general, flock to the negative reveling in it. Limited negative narrow perspective jaded accounts here of bad AT and PCT thru-hiker behavior make the problem seem larger than it is.

But, let me clearly state again there will always be some within a population that others will recognize as having unacceptable behavior. This is NOT A NEW occurrence! There has always been a segment of a population that act with a sense of entitlement. There have always been people recognized as rebels going against the norms, labeled as the undesirables, degenerates, and "partiers" in every generation. If you're from the U.S., as most posters here on WB are, you should awaken to this reality as likely you have a sense of entitlement to some degree, no matter the age. So, some of us are being hypocritical by finger pointing at recent younger generations as having a sense of entitlement or being partiers; it does more harm than good. From what I note, much of the bitching is coming from an over 30 crowd sometimes having intolerable attitudes having difficulty with some changes which I find a shame as this group could be imparting their outdoors knowledge and wisdom and inspiring others with a joy and love of Nature.

I'm over 30. How about this? Instead of bitching or declaring what others should do how about accepting our own personal responsibility as members of the hiking community to gently educate others every time we step on a trail, to share, listen, let ourselves be taught, to contribute, to mentor some aspiring younger outdoors people, to introduce folks to the sunshine and not being afraid of some rain or snow on our faces or mud on our shoes or squishing between our toes, to step forward forcefully if required, representing ourselves and this community with some damn dignity trying to lead by personal example with some tolerance, humility, sense of connection, and having a desire to positively contribute? How about connecting with the youth in your community through the Scouts, NOLs, or county or regional park systems volunteering, or by building a rain garden or tree fort or taking some kids to a community garden to grow their own food or to a butterfly garden, taking them to a Nature Center or handing out some free Dora the Explorer adventure coloring books, donating gear, going on a bike ride just so you could be with others not seeking to "beat them in a race", offering gifts to loved ones not based on the requirement they sit in front of a screen not having much of a connection with Nature or much personal interaction with other humans or wildlife, letting the Outdoors be the classroom? How about teaching people not to fear the Outdoors but respect it by learning about it learning to exist with it, to have an intimate connection with it by fostering a view that it is not simply for humanity to recklessly exploit, that humanity is not separate from it? When was the last time some of you allowed yourselves to splash in the rain puddles with your loved ones not giving a damn about anything but having fun? When was the last time some of you flew a kite with loved ones? When was the last time you went on a turtle, frog or blueberry hunt, or built a sand castle with some folks? When was the last time you took someone into the outdoors fishing, swimming, snorkeling, sledding, skiing, identifying flowers or trees, rock hounding, climbing, engaging in cloud surveys while laying on your back looking up at the sky taking the wonder of it all in, wheeled a handicapped person around a garden or through a park? When was the last time you allowed yourselves and the others around you to not be so perfect allowing everyone to laugh themselves uncontrollably into tears when someone "screwed up?" When was the last time you considered roasting some marshmallows on a campfire or teaching someone how to make a small controlled campfire? Are you as disillusioned as I am believing this approach contributes to diminishing bad hiker behavior?

What I said previously here on this thread was largely to solve one issue, the endless round and round bitching with little to no progress in making a dent on bad behavior. I know what I want. It seems you want the same - to diminish bad hiker behavior. Again, let me repeat and make clear: we, for the large part, are not having a meaningful discussion addressing or diminishing bad AT hiker behavior on threads like this as they inevitably head in the direction of posters largely simply endlessly bitching. Quite honestly, I find the abundant finger pointing and bitching not solving a damn thing but actually contributing to a greater whirlwind of negativity and further tarnishing the reputation of an overwhelmingly GREAT hiking community that, IF YOU ONLY OPENED YOUR EYES, would recognize the solution is right where you are! YOU have SO MUCH to give. Don't sell yourselves short hiking community by focusing on the negativity and getting mired in it.

What are your suggestions for making a personal difference? How are you personally contributing to your community? What value do you have to contribute?

[Wyoming]

Well Dogwood you are probably a nice guy. But we are just not compatible. I don't doubt your passion - would it be uncharitable to say you might consider toning it down some? Do you really think pretty much any adult who has a reasonable ability to think has not thought about and considered everything you just said? And most likely practices it to some extent.

I find your posts very preachy and the tone very off putting. Even if I agreed with your approach (which I don't as I prefer other approaches) I would avoid personal interaction with someone who wrote or talked to me the way your posts do. I would get very angry eventually and lose my temper.

So this is my last response here.

[Dogwood]

Well, you are probably a nice guy too.

Attempting communication through the internet via only the written word is very different than face to face and can easily be misinterpreted. Physiology represents 55% of communication and it's lost when we interact like this. If you ever met me, and perhaps we did in 06 as we both thru-hiked that yr, you likely would note some passion, perhaps even a gentle pushiness/preachiness, especially on issues like this, which have long been bitched about with little to positively contribute towards meaningfully diminishing bad behavior, but you might very well find we are more compatible able to unite under a common goal than you currently think. I'm results oriented like you. From my perspective, bitching about bad behavior is doing little to actually diminish it. I'm glad we each read our last posts as it clarifies some misconceptions. Thanks for your suggestions regarding me personally and for reducing bad hiker behavior. Hope to see you on the trail, um church. I'll save you a seat in the front pew.