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Thread: 3% vs. 20%

  1. #1
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    Default 3% vs. 20%

    I've heard the claim that 3% of the Baxter visitors, (thru hikers), use 20% of Baxter resources. How is that possible? What's going on?

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    The A-T hikers demand a lot of attention from the staff, both by needing more law enforcement (alas!) and by needing more support - trying to line up unreserved camping at Katahdin Stream, using the radio to help hikers meet up with whoever's taking them home, cleaning up after the inconsiderate, and so on.

    One would think that the thru-hikers would be more able to function independently, not less, but that doesn't seem to be the case in practice.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeezebox View Post
    I've heard the claim that 3% of the Baxter visitors, (thru hikers), use 20% of Baxter resources. How is that possible? What's going on?
    drinkin', druggin', rule breakin', illegal campin', etc., etc.

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    It's all part of the narrative they are trying to create. This is not to minimize the issues, but rather not to accept the narative as presented.

    There is no way in hell that thru hikers command 20% of the park's resources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    One would think that the thru-hikers would be more able to function independently, not less, but that doesn't seem to be the case in practice.
    In my experience it is quite the opposite. Thru hikers are in a continuous state of dependance, needing rides, places to clean themselves up, even needing borrowed clothing during town stops. That is the beauty of thru hiking, being a child again and being loved for who you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    That is the beauty of thru hiking, being a child again and being loved for who you are.
    (*shakes head sadly*)
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchild View Post
    In my experience it is quite the opposite. Thru hikers are in a continuous state of dependance, needing rides, places to clean themselves up, even needing borrowed clothing during town stops. That is the beauty of thru hiking, being a child again and being loved for who you are.
    oh brother

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    It does not matter if it is accurate. The 3% /20% is the real belief of those who run BSP.

    Maybe it is 4% / 18% in reality. It is just a way of BSP to express it concern that thru hikers are overly demanding on the time and resources of the park. What ever the ratio, reasonable minds must agree that thru hikes present a disproportionate burden on the personnel and resources of BSP.

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    Thruhikers walk into the park, and expect to ride out. No other park visitor to Baxter has as real of a logistical issue.

    How the hikers manage to solve their problems can be a complicated process that involves technology, planning and cooperation of various elements.

    Honestly, it seems like a real mess trying to reinvent the wheel, here. All anyone really needs is an "Northern terminus approach trail"--similar to Springer--that has a publically accessible parking lot. That said, Springer is in pretty disgusting condition after the spring glut waddles through and I don't blame Baxter for trying to avoid a similar fate.
    Awwww. Fat Mike, too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrum View Post
    It does not matter if it is accurate. The 3% /20% is the real belief of those who run BSP.
    No it isn't.

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    so what their saying is on any mid to late summer day. when the parking lots fill up in less than two hours of them opening the gates. those are all thru hikers and their cars?????

    BPA please do not piss down my back and tell me its raining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    No it isn't.
    BSP was pretty specific in their letter of the resource consumption. If you've other data I would like to see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    BSP was pretty specific in their letter of the resource consumption. If you've other data I would like to see it.
    Not in this letter:
    http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....%20scanned.pdf

    The whole idea that thru hikers consume 20% of the park's resources is so laughable that if there is any individual of authority up there who sincerely believes that, they should be encouraged to find a new career.
    Last edited by rickb; 07-26-2015 at 10:23.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    It's all part of the narrative they are trying to create. This is not to minimize the issues, but rather not to accept the narative as presented.

    There is no way in hell that thru hikers command 20% of the park's resources.
    I'm afraid these words wouldn't have gone over well in negotiations with BSP.

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    Honesty would be a good starting point.


    The park maintains how many cabins, Sly?

    How many campgrounds that are not ever visited by thru hikers?

    How many miles of trail maintenance do they complete?

    How many canoes, bunkhouses, leantos to they keep up?

    How many rescues do they perform?

    How may reservations do they process from the Millinocket office?

    How many Forestry studies to they oversee?

    How many latrines for the 60,000+ visitors do they keep is such good condition.

    How many special programs do they run?

    No, thru hikers do NOT consume 20% of the park's resources. If that is what they are telling you, they are either completely misinformed (very unlikely) or are creating that narative for a specific purpose.

    The ATC would be wise to always keep that in mind.
    Last edited by rickb; 07-26-2015 at 10:49.

  16. #16

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    Does it really matter Rick? There are issues which need to be corrected.

  17. #17

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    I can't comment on the percentages. However, as Kevin noted, staff time is the primary park resource expended on management of Appalachian Trail hikers. Here are some of the issues:

    1) Nobos who come into the park without reservations when The Birches site is full (Birches holds 12; some days the number of nobos is 20,30, 40, or rarely, even more). In theory, nobos could make reservations for Katahdin Stream campground like all other visitors, but they rarely do. The park has traditionally recognized that it would be difficult for nobos to predict their arrival time in advance (which is why reservations have not been required for long-distance hikers), or even know if they were going to be able to make it that far in their journey. But the number of nobos arriving without reservations in a park with a finite number of camping spots is now overwhelming the park during a portion of the season.

    2) Sobos who don't have reservations and are unprepared for the climb and the 100-mile wilderness.

    3) Flip-floppers (starting in Georgia, flipping from some point mid-Trail) who don't have reservations.

    4) Nobos who break rules (issues related to stealth camping, alcohol and drugs, and fake service dogs).

    5) Families of nobos who want to meet their hikers and climb with them and don't have parking or camping reservations.

    ATC, managing partners, and others in the A.T. community need to work together to do a better job of educating hikers about the special situations in Baxter State Park. We already have a number of action items coming out of the meeting with Baxter State Park last week (and some were already underway).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb View Post
    Not in this letter:
    http://www.baxterstateparkauthority....%20scanned.pdf

    The whole idea that thru hikers consume 20% of the park's resources is so laughable that if there is any individual of authority up there who sincerely believes that, they should be encouraged to find a new career.
    i think what may be closer to true and might be what they are meaning to say is that on days that see heavy thru hiker traffic, thru hikers are 3% of the people and consume 20% of the resources. i have absolutely no problem believing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdoczi View Post
    i think what may be closer to true and might be what they are meaning to say is that on days that see heavy thru hiker traffic, thru hikers are 3% of the people and consume 20% of the resources. i have absolutely no problem believing this.
    ...and likely that 3% of the thru-hikers cause a disproportionate part of the problem. While I doubt that anyone could come up with a verifiable or useful statistic, doesn't this type of imbalance hold true for society in general? It's almost always the case that a few are very different from most: a very few people hold a huge share of the wealth; a very few commit murder; a few are incredibly smart; a few screw a lot of things up for the rest of us.

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    Well the old law enforcement saying does seem to apply. "90% of the people don't need governing and the other 10% can't be governed." Guess we know which group the thru hikers fall into.

    On a serious note after reading the letter that rickb linked I now realize the scale of the problem. I have no suggestions on how to fix the BSP situation, but who could be surprised if they boot the AT out of the park? Given this growth from when I lived out east and hiked the AT all the time I can imagine the problems in the South. It must be horrible. SNP with no privies was disgusting enough 10 years ago. The place must be like a sewer now.

    Sounds like the AT community needs to start figuring out ways to cut the volume of thru hikers down significantly.

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