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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofit View Post
    It's the year 2016 and after a movie detailing the exploits of two fellas tackling the AT becomes a Blockbuster, BSP decides to use Drones to monitor the summit of Mt.Katahdin.
    aaaahhhhhhhh!
    god help us!
    No more that 12 drones in formation and none may be powered with an alcohol-based fuel.

  2. #82

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    Originally Posted by Hoofit
    Numbers seem to be the main problem so deal with the quantity, not the quality , as most hikers treat Mother Nature with respect or they wouldn't be out there in the first place.



    "That is the key fact that most commenters here are denying. Bissell is claiming that even if we behave in an exemplary fashion, we are simply too numerous to accommodate. He is advancing the narrative that the numbers are so great that the only way to deal with them is to restrict them severely."

    All this.

    And once this is accepted we will cease playing this kick the can down the road pushing it off to another day game attempting in futility to square two opposing management/modeling systems which at best addresses the AT population issue in the short term. The obvious message is it is unsustainable for BSP to continue to accommodate an ever increasing number of AT hikers entering from outside it's boundaries. AGAIN, this is not a AT/BSP only issue.

  3. #83
    ME => GA 19AT3 rickb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    Portland Press Herald, quote by Dentico of the BSPA, iirc. Jurek's party was denied a helicopter, given just one media pass, cautioned about group size, alcohol, etc. Jurek's lies about being told the booze was OK, and the oversized group was OK, are pathetic. They make him look small and petulant.

    Come on TJ.

    You know the quote was a very vague second hand observation that Bissel had contacted some of Jurek's sponsors.

    Not him.

    Not his wife.

    You have enough knowledge and insight to offer that you don't need to fall into the spin game. Next time, how about posting the actual quote, rather than a version of it that fits your message.

  4. #84
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    Considering the tone of the statement from Bissel, Jurek's response was very classy.

  5. #85
    Registered User The Cleaner's Avatar
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    Jeez,5 pages and still going.FWIW running the AT for a FKT IMO is like driving hundreds of miles to the Grand Canyon and then trying to see it without getting out of your car.Then complaining about getting a speeding ticket.
    Sleep on the ground, rise with the sun and hike with the wind....

  6. #86
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cleaner View Post
    FWIW running the AT for a FKT IMO ....
    Did I stumble into a Tom Clancy novel ????
    Paul "Mags" Magnanti
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    The true harvest of my life is intangible...a little stardust caught,a portion of the rainbow I have clutched -Thoreau

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    If memory serves, it's fully five thousand feet of elevation gain from Abol Stream to the summit.
    I thought it is closer to 4000 ft gain, maybe that is just the el gain inside the park?

  8. #88
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    4198 ft.gain from KSC to Baxter peak

  9. #89
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    There is some elevation gain from Abol Stream to KSC. If you count the mini PUDS, it is possible that it might account for the remaining 802' that AK states. Pretty flat through that area. Not sure if it is bumpy enough to make up the remainder.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
    Sorry, AT Traveler, but if a ranger OKs your party size at KSC you should't then get cited because other people than those 12 lingered at the summit, people you don't even know, most of them, to celebrate with you. That's abuse of authority. You ok with that?

    Likewise, it's piling on to give him a ticket for alcohol at the summit when the ranger OK'd his friend bringing it and he didn't even know about it. He violated the rule, but the park employees at the summit didn't say anything to stop it - they were too busy cheering him on with everyone else - that's all there to be seen in the videos on Runner's World's site. Does that not bother you?

    I'm all for abiding by reasonable rules and their reasonable and fair enforcement. And I think these rules are all reasonable. But are you saying the way Baxter handled this has caused you no concern? To give the ok to something and then to ticket it is pretty bush league, as I see it.
    If you were privy to the conversations I will defer to you. I was not. However my point remains simple. Its not our house, they make the rules, one must inform themselves of those rules as ignorance of them is not an excuse. Do I have concerns about BSP handling of this? I don't know enough about it to have any opinion about that or how Jurek and his sponsors have handled it. Again, its a simple point I make.

    Fair or not, its the way it is. Bush league, or commercial interests, either way I've no opinion. Jurek has a high profile, so would anything that happened there that involved him. I've no beef with Jurek or BSP on this or anything they opt to do, regardless if I feel it foolish or vain.

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cleaner View Post
    Jeez,5 pages and still going.FWIW running the AT for a FKT IMO is like driving hundreds of miles to the Grand Canyon and then trying to see it without getting out of your car.Then complaining about getting a speeding ticket.
    That was the second most entertaining post over the last few days. Praha's post about the encounter of snobby haughty AT thru-hikers was the best.

    "...Me and a buddy I met at Springer Mtn decided to stay at the Walasi Yi Hostel, which was pretty much full for the night. We were both given top bunks in the hostel. All the bottom bunks had been taken much earlier in the day by a large group/clique of NoBo thru hikers, who had hiked the grand total of 4-5 miles that day from Woods Hole shelter. This group looked like they were going on the next Everest expedition, at least a Hollywood version. Clothing included the latest and most expensive hats, boots, and jackets. As my buddy and I walked across the parking lot toward the hostel, this elite group was outside profiling, "holding court", (as Tipi so well described) and taking pictures and videos of each other to post online as quickly as possible. Looked like a Hollywood set for "Seven Years in Tibet", one even had the Brad Pitt thing going with the yellow hair. As we humbly approached, my buddy and I could sense we were in the company of greatness, of yet undiscovered trail legends... legends in their own minds.

    I learned early on not to make direct eye contact with these AT yet to be "trail legends", it's a sure way to find oneself the target of the "holding court", and gear/shoes/clothing critiques, whether requested or not.

    So we bowed to them, and quietly tiptoed into the hostel, where we were directed to the 3rd class "steerage" section, the top bunks. When the "Seven Years in Tibet" cast returned to the bunkrooms, I learned my bunk was on top of the cast leader, the one wearing the most expensive Tilley "Aussie" hat and wearing the Bogart ascot. He lectured me on proper hostel ettiquette, and where I was and was not permitted to place my heh-heh "dime store" hiking gear.

    What a day! Only 3rd day on the AT and my buddy and I had already stumbled onto the biggest group of AT blue-flame specials I had met, or ever met since then."

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    I believe you are correct. It is why I stated early on that there would be no apology. For what it is worth, I have never called for an apology. I thought it would be wise for him to say something... anything truthful early on... way before Bissell did anything. It has become increasingly apparent who Scott is.
    You might want to reread my post and the one to which it responds, BirdBrain. I was talking about Mr. Bissell and his evident mistakes or misstatements, not Mr. Jurek.
    The more miles, the merrier!

    NH4K: 21/48; N.E.4K: 25/67; NEHH: 28/100; Northeast 4K: 27/115; AT: 124/2191

  13. #93
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    OK, I may have misremembered slightly, but I see on a topo that Abol Bridge is about 585 feet elevation, and Baxter Peak is 5266. So net elevation gain of 4680 or so, and add a few 50 foot PUDs here and there. It might be a little shy of 5000 feet, but not by more than a piddling amount. KSC is at 1070 or so, so Lone Wolf's figure is right on, and the Hunt Trail is pretty much straight climb.

    I don't think that there's any disputing that the Hunt Trail is one of the more technical sections of the A-T. There's a comparable amount of ascent coming up onto the Presidentials, but it is considerably more gradual and has places to rest: Crawford Notch is about 1250, but after Webster and Jackson are passed comes Mizpah Spring at about 3800, and then again after Pierce and Eisenhower (and the A-T avoids the latter) there is Lakes of the Clouds at about 5010 before the final push to Mount Washington, so a weaker climber has places where it's possible to pull in and rest for a night.

    The other spot that's infamous for sustained elevation gain is coming up out of NOC. The Wesser bridge is about 1800 feet elevation, and the trail ascends pretty steadily up to Cheoah Bald (how is that pronounced, anyway?) at 5050. But none of that is technical. It's just miles and miles of uphill, and you can pull off and pitch a tent just about anywhere.

    Katahdin may be the most strenuous climb on the trail, but more important to the argument, it's by far the most strenuous that has no lawful place to pull over and spend a night. If The Birches, KSC, and Daicey Pond cannot accommodate, a hiker has to get in and out from Abol in a single day. There are many, even among the thru-hikers, who simply cannot manage that feat safely. Thirty miles and nearly ten thousand feet of elevation change - that must be accomplished in a single day to be lawful - is an overwhelming amount even for some fit and experienced hikers.

    I suspect that the limit that has BSP bursting at the seams is indeed that The Birches and KSC cannot accommodate the number of A-T users who arrive nowadays. Given that expansion of these facilities, or construction of new ones, is a non-starter. Day users and those with campground reservations can be spread out better, because Chimney Pond, Roaring Brook, Davis Pond, and other sites are available to them. For this reason, the suggestion that someone else made that a shuttle service for a "mini flip flop" be instituted to allow hikers to ascend from Katahdin Stream and then walk out - or perhaps the section between Abol Bridge and Katahdin Stream could be made optional. That would convert thru-hikers into day users, and moreover, day users who would not be using a parking space. It leaves the same amount of traffic on the Hunt Trail, but it is conceivable that at least today's level of traffic could be handled if BSP didn't have to find places to put everyone up.

    Of course, I could be wrong, and the real problem might be overcrowding at the Katahdin summit. I hope it isn't that one, because that one is fixable only by denying people the opportunity to climb. (That has a cascade effect. Those denied will likely try again, increasing the pressure to where some may spend a lifetime without getting permission. This is already the case for popular wilderness trips elsewhere. Someone entering the lottery for a Grand Canyon rafting trip, for instance, has only about a 10% chance of getting a launch opportunity in any given year.
    I always know where I am. I'm right here.

  14. #94
    Registered User Driver8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT Traveler View Post
    If you were privy to the conversations I will defer to you. I was not. However my point remains simple. Its not our house, they make the rules, one must inform themselves of those rules as ignorance of them is not an excuse. Do I have concerns about BSP handling of this? I don't know enough about it to have any opinion about that or how Jurek and his sponsors have handled it. Again, its a simple point I make.

    Fair or not, its the way it is. Bush league, or commercial interests, either way I've no opinion. Jurek has a high profile, so would anything that happened there that involved him. I've no beef with Jurek or BSP on this or anything they opt to do, regardless if I feel it foolish or vain.
    So you're ready to wag the finger at Jurek on hearsay, but not to question Baxter on similar grounds. Double standard. Heads Baxter's right, tails Scott's wrong. Spares one the trouble of critical thought and review of factual evidence. Remind me to strike you if you're ever in my jury pool.

    Scott posted a photo showing he was ticketed down among trees and cars, which proves Bissell was not telling the truth in saying Scott hiked down with the citations. Do you wonder whether Bissell's wrong about anything else?

    There are two sides to this story, and you're deaf to one of them. Doesn't matter to you that Baxter's rangers very likely ok'd Scott's party size and Scott's friend bringing up the champagne. Even though, if it happened to you, you'd be furious. As would I. As would any reasonable person. Didn't happen to you, so no sweat off your nose. And you don't like Scott or his hike for some reason, so whatever he gets, he deserves. That' pretty rough justice, cowboy. Hope you don't get caught on the wrong end of such a situation. Tell you what, though, I'll take your side if you do.
    The more miles, the merrier!

    NH4K: 21/48; N.E.4K: 25/67; NEHH: 28/100; Northeast 4K: 27/115; AT: 124/2191

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
    You might want to reread my post and the one to which it responds, BirdBrain. I was talking about Mr. Bissell and his evident mistakes or misstatements, not Mr. Jurek.
    I caught that. Bissell's imperfect methods open him up to a possible retribution from Jurek. I just elaborated on what kind of person would pursue such a course. Now I am going back to read the posts in question to see why I am of course with my context.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

  16. #96
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    Okay, I reread the posts. I stand by my statements. Bissell shot his mouth off because he was more interested in combating the perception of the open celebration than he was in trying Jurek. I believe this nuance is lost on people would are immersed in legal wranglings. If Bissell's primary focus was litigation, he is an idiot. I take his missteps as evidence that litigation is not his primary focus. That misstep may cost him because he might be facing someone who is interested in litigation.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdBrain View Post
    Okay, I reread the posts. I stand by my statements. Bissell shot his mouth off because he was more interested in combating the perception of the open celebration than he was in trying Jurek. I believe this nuance is lost on people would are immersed in legal wranglings. If Bissell's primary focus was litigation, he is an idiot. I take his missteps as evidence that litigation is not his primary focus. That misstep may cost him because he might be facing someone who is interested in litigation.
    With due respect, I think you're inclined to see Scott Jurek in the worst possible light, to an overboard extent. People get their hackles up in this case and tend to lose their perspective and sense of proportion. I think Bissell was unwise in how he handled this, jerking his knee likely under pressure from funders and/or trust sticklers. I hope the situation can be dialed back in to a more peaceable alignment.
    The more miles, the merrier!

    NH4K: 21/48; N.E.4K: 25/67; NEHH: 28/100; Northeast 4K: 27/115; AT: 124/2191

  18. #98
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    Default Appalachian Trail record-setter says Baxter State Park officials 'vilifying' ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Another Kevin View Post
    Who am I to say otherwise? I have no claim on it. The park has large areas, including Katahdin itself, that are supposed to be wilderness.

    “A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.”

    If the sheer number of people along the Hunt Trail are threatening the nature of being untrammelled by Man, then perhaps he is right to restrict numbers or close it entirely.
    The logical problem with this definition of wildernesses is that man is part of nature, does remain, does belong.

    The other logical problem is the way they want to go about it allowing themselves continuous access while denying the rest of us and telling us to be just visitors. And say that how they are preserving the wilderness while they them selfs are quite a bit more then just visitors.


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  19. #99

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    Why is this such a big deal? Should Scott have followed the rules. Sure. He didnt and got a ticket. Big deal. But all you "follow the rules" hipocrites probably break the rules" several times a day yet you want to make a big deal about Scott. Focus on the amazing part if the story, nothing the part where you get to try to make yourself look good. Did you go over the speed limit on the way home to write that note? Maybe you were swerving while checking out that married jogger running down the street.

    Good job Scott. Your acheivement I'd super human to me. Too bad you got the ticket...lesson learned for next time.

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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driver8 View Post
    With due respect, I think you're inclined to see Scott Jurek in the worst possible light, to an overboard extent. People get their hackles up in this case and tend to lose their perspective and sense of proportion. I think Bissell was unwise in how he handled this, jerking his knee likely under pressure from funders and/or trust sticklers. I hope the situation can be dialed back in to a more peaceable alignment.
    I have appreciated your logical analysis. I have appreciated your corrections of wild accusation. I have admitted my Maine bias. I admit when I am wrong. I see a pattern of convenient and calculated statements by Scott and winging it by Bissell. It is a bit too convenient for me that the approval of the alcohol is based in hearsay. I am yet to see a statement that disputes Denico's statement that Bissell informed Scott's sponsors of the rules in advance. Scott says he was not told (directly). I believe him. Was he told indirectly? Should he have been told at all? I never was. Most are not. Somehow most find a way to comply. I do not believe Maine is interested in Scott's money. I see a possibility that Scott may be interested in defending his name. That part is very presumptuous on my part. I will admit that I am wrong when Scott pays a dime and when he does not press Bissell in court over his verbal diarrhea. I am wrong often. I admitted it recently about the AMC. I have zero pride in that regard. We are all wrong quite often. Let us see how this plays out.
    In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. - Abraham Lincoln

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