Begineer AT - Need Advice

[Malto]

Wow. I so, disagree. Aside from, if 4-season is a minimum, what would I get that is better. . . maybe a five season? ;-)

I realize that winter tarping isn't for everyone, but done right, it works in non-mountaineering winter conditions well. And heck, no bugs to worry about in winter. Any semi-wind stable 3-season tent should be fine unless you are expecting large snow loads or are camping in wide open, unprotected areas (where a pyramid tarp would work well), which I understand are largely avoidable when camping along the AT even if you aren't using the shelters. A tarp may actually be more useful than a tent in that you could also rig it more easily as a windbreak inside shelters.

I regularly use my 20*F degree bag as my winter bag, knowing full well that I will, at times, wear some extra cloths inside or on top of my bag if it gets below 20*F and I will take an extra quilt for over the top if I expect it to be below about 10*F. Even regularly doing week long winter ski trips, I never use my expedition down bag, it's just way more than I ever need.

I find canister stoves work fairly well down to about freezing. So, if you don't expect to be much below freezing regularly, you can probably get buy with a canister stove, they just get frustratingly slow. Some people use alcohol even in winter. I have never tried that as a primary stove because I expect it is too slow for my taste melting snow for drinking. Inverted canister stoves work very well down to below 0*F as do liquid fuel. There are lots of tricks to get upright canister stoves to work in the winter if you already have one and don't mind the fiddle factor . . . probably not best for a novice.

I love my Kattula microspikes and highly recommend them any time you expect to be walking extensively on snow and/or ice especially in exposed areas where a slip could be catastrophic.

I never use boots any more, except on my skis. For winter, I generally hike/snowshoe in my Merrell Moab Ventilators (light trail shoes without waterproofing) with a thin liner sock, a vapor barrier liner, a thicker insulating sock, and then a waterproof sock cover and gators. Bread bags work for VBL and WP cover if nothing else. Shoes are so much faster and lighter and plenty warm for non-arctic hiking rigged as noted above.

Again, as suggested above, absolutely do your winter adventure, but absolutely do not head out on it without some practice winter overnights to tune your skills and gear!

I agree completely. I use a 20 deg quilt and a mid style tarp with bivy. I should have written this post!

[rafe]

I never use boots any more, except on my skis. For winter, I generally hike/snowshoe in my Merrell Moab Ventilators (light trail shoes without waterproofing) with a thin liner sock, a vapor barrier liner, a thicker insulating sock, and then a waterproof sock cover and gators. Bread bags work for VBL and WP cover if nothing else. Shoes are so much faster and lighter and plenty warm for non-arctic hiking rigged as noted above.

How many layers, exactly, on your feet? This is waay beyond anything I've ever done. But I'm very interested in upgrading my foot-protection technology, as it were. Looking to do some miles in Maine in a few weeks. Cold rain and mud a distinct possibility.

Wet trail runners with conventional hiking socks is fine in dry weather but sucks after three days of rain and mud. Looking for a better solution, if it exists.

[Venchka]

I'm planning on starting at the beginning of the trail in Georgia near the start of December, then hiking around 200-230 miles up the trail within 18 days. That'll pretty much be the end of my hike till I'm able to resume again in May. I'm not really familiar with the snow fall in the mountains near Georgia. How much snow could I expect to see if any? What other precautions should I be taking considering that I'm leaving in December? I haven't been able to find a whole lot of information for the Winter months on the Appalachian Trail.
Thanks!

P.S. I'm set on leaving in December, please do not try to deter me.

Please get a clue. There are volumes of data available online for every square mile of the USA.
Stop worrying about snow. 35 degrees and raining will kill you before it gets cold enough to snow. Freezing rain is worse. Freezing rain over a foot of snow pack is lethal.
Search this forum for trip reports by Tipi Walter. Learn from his accounts of 150+ hour rainfall events, cold, wind, snow, etc. Then read about the bad weather.
End of rant.
Be safe.

Wayne


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[Traveler]

When someone says not to try and deter them because their mind is made up, then asks if they need boots in the Appalachian mountains during the winter months I get the impression not a lot said here is being absorbed.

So, please keep a card in your pocket (not your pack but in your pants pocket (presuming you are wearing pants in winter in the GA mountains and not a speedo) that is written in indelible ink so it won't run when it gets wet that lists your name, address, and contact numbers for next of kin. That will reduce the amount of morgue time with a John Doe toe tag.

[4shot]

When someone says not to try and deter them because their mind is made up, then asks if they need boots in the Appalachian mountains during the winter months I get the impression not a lot said here is being absorbed.

lol, I have to agree. OTOH, were Lewis & Clark deterred by the naysayers? Kit Carson? Magellan? Stanley & Livingston. Columbus? Earl & Grandma Gates? Or the thousands upon thousands of people who died anonymously trying to do crazy $&!t like the aforementioned explorers. First hike on the AT...in the winter. this guy is bringing it. I think the saying is this...Go big or go home,bro. But if it were me, i wouldn't do it. I'd just go home and ease into it a little bit. but that's just me.

[Venchka]

lol, I have to agree. OTOH, were Lewis & Clark deterred by the naysayers? Kit Carson? Magellan? Stanley & Livingston. Columbus? Earl & Grandma Gates? Or the thousands upon thousands of people who died anonymously trying to do crazy $&!t like the aforementioned explorers. First hike on the AT...in the winter. this guy is bringing it. I think the saying is this...Go big or go home,bro. But if it were me, i wouldn't do it. I'd just go home and ease into it a little bit. but that's just me.

All of the intrepid early explorers mentioned above had years of experience in the outside world. After all, they had to survive outdoors or else they wouldn't have lived long enough to embark on their grand adventures.
I would add Ernest Shackleton to the list. His voyage to Antarctica is an incredible story.

To the OP: Practice. Practice. Practice. Prepare for the worst. Hope for the best.
By all means, have fun.

Wayne


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[The Cleaner]

Be sure to have some kind of extra power source for your cell phone(cold weather kills batteries faster) so you can call in SAR when hypothermia starts.Oh one more thing,cell service is not good anywhere in a snow storm....

[Traveler]

Be sure to have some kind of extra power source for your cell phone(cold weather kills batteries faster) so you can call in SAR when hypothermia starts.Oh one more thing,cell service is not good anywhere in a snow storm....

Why does the scene where Jeremiah Johnson stumbles across Hatchet Jack, frozen solid and holding his Hawkings rifle at the ready, keep playing in my head....

[glenlawson]

MuddyWaters was right on the money. You could have great weather, clear skies, highs in the 60s lows in the 40s, or you could have cold rainy weather that alternates between sheets of ice and 4 inches of mud. Most years, the hard freezes in Georgia don't come until January, but North Carolina and especially the Smokies will likely be cold already.

Your most likely scenario will be cold, wet rain. And dark. Echoing what someone already said, the closer it gets to Dec 21st, the shorter the days will be. You need to be prepared to get up and moving at first light, because towards the end of your hike it will be dark shortly after 5 pm. You won't have long days to hike, but you will have long nights in your tent. And rain. And mud. I think the microspikes would be a great idea since they will keep you moving in the likely event of ice.

None of this is intended to discourage. You will have great vistas since there won't be leaves in the way. You'll have solitude. No bugs. And you won't be drenched with sweat by lunchtime.

[glenlawson]

A little backstory, in 1983, I was a senior in high school and wanted to backpack on the AT during spring break, the first week in April. I was hiking by myself from Dicks Creek Gap in GA to the Nantahala River. I started out on a beautiful, cool April afternoon and hiked about 6 miles the first day. The next day, I started seeing snow on some far mountains as I was getting closer to the NC border. As I continued to hike, the snow on the mountains was closer and there started to be a little snow on the ground. By the time I got to the Muskrat Creek shelter than evening, there was about 6 inches of snow around and it was getting colder. According to my zipper pull thermometer, it was about -10 degrees when I was eating supper which explained why my hands were getting cold so fast. That night, I slept with my water bottle and stove in my sleeping bag, but awoke to find my boots frozen to the shelter floor. They thawed after about 3 hours of hiking.

There was another guy in the shelter that night and he walked out to his truck the next day. He was parked at the Standing Indian campground and was originally going to hike the loop. It took a couple of days for the snow to melt and then I hiked in mud for the next few days. Fortunately I knew that early spring hiking could get a little chilly so I packed a set of cold weather clothes just in case. I made it just fine because I was prepared for the cold, snow and rain. I was prepared because I was young and in shape. It didn't hurt that there were lots of road crossings in case I needed to get off the trail.

My point? You'll do just fine for the first 170 miles. But before leaving Fontana, I would seriously assess how the previous days have gone and find a detailed weather forecast for the Smokies. If there is any doubt, you should pat yourself on the back and tell Fontana Village "I'll see you in May."

[Venchka]

Y'all do realize that we are on page 3 talking to each other. TennTech has been absent since post #3.

Wayne

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[Venchka]

A little backstory, in 1983,

Later in 1983, Christmas Eve saw a blast of Arctic air sweep across the Southeast.
We left New Orleans on Christmas Eve headed for a week in Athens, GA. I had packed by backpacking gear in anticipation of taking my 10 year old daughter on her first backpacking trip. That afternoon we stopped in Atlanta for gas. I jumped out of the car and immediately jumped back in the car to get my keys to open the trunk and get out my gloves and a sweater. It was 8 degrees and the wind was blowing stink. That night I was out buying winter clothes for my daughter.
Christmas morning it was ZERO in Athens and 10 BELOW ZERO in Helen, GA. Our backpacking trip was cancelled.
Always prepare for the worst.

Wayne

[Berserker]

Forgot.....don't plan on canister stove working...

I've read this many times before and I have not found it to be the case in my experience. I don't know the tipping point of a canister stove, but I've used one down to 20F and it still worked ok. Maybe below that is when it stops working?

[saltysack]

I've read this many times before and I have not found it to be the case in my experience. I don't know the tipping point of a canister stove, but I've used one down to 20F and it still worked ok. Maybe below that is when it stops working?

I started a short 30 mike hike over roan a few winters back with a half full canister...couldn't get to stay burning with my lite max stove...even sleep with it in my bag with no luck...possible the canister was defective but pretty sure it was cold weather. Temps were between +12- +32 degrees.


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[Berserker]

Y'all do realize that we are on page 3 talking to each other. TennTech has been absent since post #3.

Yeah, but we do this with every thread...we just like blabbing away whether someone is listening or not

[nsherry61]

. . . Christmas morning it was ZERO in Athens and 10 BELOW ZERO in Helen, GA. Our backpacking trip was cancelled. Always prepare for the worst.

It also snowed two feet in Yellowstone in July 1975 (or something there about) but that doesn't mean you always pack a four season tent, winter sleeping bag, and winter clothing every time you go to Yellowstone. I think this "be prepared for the worst case scenario" mantra, especially for beginners, leads to a lot of people carrying way too much weight in gear they never use.

Although being prepared to survive the worst case scenario is important, it is NOT important to be prepared to be as comfortable as possible as long as possible for every, "probably never, but maybe once in a lifetime" freak event.

I like to suggest that people prepare to be comfortable in the expected, probable, conditions, be uncomfortable, but safe, in the event of extreme conditions, and at least survivable in the "probably never, but maybe once in a lifetime" conditions. For me, more often than not, there is some kind of escape to more protected ground or civilization to avoid or remove myself from the "probably never, but maybe once in a lifetime" freak events. So, I backpack with the plan of being uncomfortable <10% of the time (and save about 30% of my weight by being willing to be uncomfortable, but safe, on rare occasions).

[Venchka]

All of what you say comes with a lot of experience. Unfortunately, as evidenced by the opening question posted in this thread, there are far too many people who don't know what are reasonable and customary conditions that they should prepare for. Far too many people fail to realize that the mountains of North Carolina, Tennessee & southern Virginia more closely resemble New England in the winter than south Florida. Add to this the fact that temperatures well below freezing, high wind, cold rain, freezing rain, sleet & snow in the mountains around Christmas time are more normal than many people might guess.
I guess what I'm saying, in my own shorthand way because I seen what can happen quickly at higher elevations, is to prepare to be DRY and comfortable at 20 degrees and survive around zero after Thanksgiving through March or even April.
Is that better?
Meanwhile, TennTech, are you taking good notes?

Wayne

ps: The first time I visited GSMNP, Presidents Day, mid-1970s, a foot of snow fell outside the park and more at the upper elevations. The third time I visited north Georgia & North Carolina, Christmas, 2009, we experienced rain, freezing rain and snow in Blue Ridge, GA and Boone, NC. I'm 3 for 3 for winter conditions in the Georgia-Tennessee-North Carolina mountains. Apparently, I bring bad weather with me for the holidays.

[Traveler]

Yeah, but we do this with every thread...we just like blabbing away whether someone is listening or not

Bringing up the age old question, if a brook babbles in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a noise?