Baxter state park

[Furlough]

Baxter isn't suddenly having an issue... The problem has been there and Baxter has been dealing with it. Just because we on WB have not heard about every ticket, does not mean they have not been dealing with the issue. The reality is that it is not EVERY thru-hiker that is the issue (or lots of tickets would have been issued and we would have heard about it). It is far more likely that those who have been popped for various offenses have slunk off because they know they are guilty.

The problem is that there are more hikers every year. Every year there are more issues. The numbers are not decreasing... It was one thing when there were only hundreds of people hiking the trail each year. At some point a line does have to be drawn. Why? Because people today do not seem to understand the word "no." If a host asks you not to do something, shouldn't you (as the guest) stop the behavior?

Rather than sit here and point fingers, isn't it time we do something about the behaviors (the drinking & drugging on Katahdin, the asking for rides, the stealth camping, etc) so they are a non-issue? Isn't it time for the hiking community to set an example of the behaviors that should be exhibited by those who are experienced and have respect for the outdoors?

What the heck is wrong with taking responsibility for making sure the trail remains the way we want it to be? It's a pretty simple question.

This. Well said Water Rat. In general the problem seems to be two-fold across the entire length of the AT (not just BSP). Those 2 problems are: 1) increased use straining limited resources. 2) a sub-culture on the part of some but not all AT hikers, that portrays a sense of entitlement, a me first attitude-rules are meant to be broken, or are not meant for me mentatilty. A little good old fashioned golden rule protocol would go a long way. It is difficult to understand why it is so easy for some to walk through life and the trail with no or very little sense of self responsibility.

[lemon b]

This seems to be all about money and to a certain degree ego's. Maybe the ATC should stop handing out thru hiker certificates. My thought is that if Baxter was still alive he wouldn't want vehicles in his park. Of course, it would be too simple to expect people to hike for the love of wilderness alone and for one to experience wilderness they would need to walk in carrying their means for survival. Both the ATC & BSP are way too commercial.

[Don H]

so youve never read the entries concerning BSP in any of the who knows how many guidebooks dealing with the subject there are? maybe you havent, but i think most people read stuff like that and it just doesnt register. then later when asked theyll say they never heard anything about it. i deal with this kind of thing at my job constantly, i can tell a room full of people the rules and expectations and 25 minutes later one of them will say no one told them.

The 2010 A.T. Guide, which was my sole source of trail information, mentions nothing about size of group or alcohol in Baxter.
I have a picture of the Kiosk at Abol and there is nothing there stating the rules that I can see nor do I recall any such signs posted (although the rules might have been in with the 20 or more pages posted all over the kiosk).
The ranger at check in did not discuss rules, just signed us in and directed us to our campsite.

So yea, I'd say there's room for improvement in getting this information out.

[peakbagger]

My thought is that if Baxter was still alive he wouldn't want vehicles in his park. I don't think there is any evidence of that. Percival Baxter was alive into the late sixties (his death was June 1969) and routinely was driven into the park (he had a chauffeur). His vision of a visit to the park would be what most folks would regard as car camping. KSC, RR Brook and Abol all are predominately drive up campgrounds where a camper parks his car at his site. There are walk up sites but they rarely involve much more than a 3 minute walk.

I have a picture of the Kiosk at Abol and there is nothing there stating the rules that I can see nor do I recall any such signs posted (although the rules might have been in with the 20 or more pages posted all over the kiosk).The rules were posted prominently at the kiosk at the Abol bridge entrance this fall as well as interpretations of the rules for those who are unable to read the full set. Realistically unless there is a full time employee administering written quizzes to hikers entering the park, there is always going to be the hiker that say the rules werent prominent enough.

Like the rest of the state of Maine, there is no drinking alcohol in public law. Its not an arbitrary park rule, its state law and Baxter Peak is public. Folks can do and enjoy alcoholic beverages at their campsite and a ranger wont hassle anyone about alcohol at a campsite unless its accessory to some other rules violation like the quiet hours rule.

Contrary to what apparently the hiking public believes , there is rarely park staff at the summit and with the exception of the campgrounds you will rarely run into them . For the most part the rules are management tools used when common sense and courtesy isn't working. Writing a citation is a last resort. On the other hand when high visibility PR events occur within the park the park does assign staff so the park is shown appropriately. One high visibility image of a person popping off and spraying a bottle of champagne with prominent sponsorship logos is going to set the expectation that everyone should plan to bring a bottle. Unfortunately 200 plus people a day in a roughly 50' circle for 3 to 4 months a year is not a great place to spray sugar containing beverages as bees and other insects are attracted.

[gbolt]

I have just sat on the sideline and watched the threads and posts continue to discuss all the angles of the AT. I also have watched the ATC's philosophy shift as an organization, while Baxter State Park and even our Whiteblaze members from Maine increased the volumn of their issues with the AT. The problems of numbers, park trail capacity, dogs, alchohol, following rules, not following rules, enforcement, shelter graffitti and damage, hostel closings, hiker entitlement, and the fragile system found on Katahdin as well as Springer and places inbetween is not a physical isssue as much as it is a mental issue. The mental preparation of each person stepping foot on a hiking trail and deciding that they are there as an integral part of the environment and not just a visitor, ruler, and definitely not just passing thru without any responsibility to the damage left in their (our) wake; must be instilled in each of us. LNT should be part of all off our beings; not just a nice slogan. The next Generation needs to learn the urgency of LNT or the AT will be an eroded memory of a once wonderful green tunnel. However, the next Generation learns from each of us. The issues of the AT start in our own backyard parks every time a person fails to take 10 extra steps to follow the curve of the trail and instead cuts the corner to have the entire hillside erode away, or drops their beer can (not allowed in the 1st place), or doesn't bury their kleenix because they couldn't make it back to their cars.

I must admit that I was on the side of S. Jurek and thought the celebration was much to do about nothing. While I do beleive he was the poster child for the Park's frustration; I remember the saying, with great power (to set a FKT) comes great responsibility. Many eyes were on him. I feel that Scott was mentally prepared for the record but not mentally prepared for the AT or Baxter State Park. Was he "one" with the trail or just a visitor from Colorado? Was the trail a means to an end, something to be conquered and then left for others to conquer? Did he LNT (no matter how small or large the impact of a peice of cork or drop of alchohol, physically or mentally)? I am not about beating him up, either. He defended himself quite well. This is all in the past. The Summer of 2015. We need to look forward to 2016 and beyond.

We all are part of the problem and all must become part of the solution. I am no "tree hugger" or major activist; but someone that has grown to love the Smokey Mountains over a lifetime of memories. I live in Ohio but that is just a governmental boundary, man made. When I hike in the foothills of the appalachian mountains in my state, am I not connected to the AT and even my brother in Maine? I hope that if I ever return to the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, I don't just "visit" them and leave, because I should be connected to them as much as I am the Smokey Mountains. I hope that I LNT, a memory of my time there. The earth can and will heal, the question is how deep of a wound do we choose to inflict.

Finally, I beleive one word sums up everything. That word is RESPECT. Respect the Trail! Respect each other! Respect the people and entire communities that connect each section to the next because we are alll connected and all must be trail angels. Respect Springer and Katahdin. Respect every Shelter, privy, (whether you agree with them or not) water source, animal, lightning strike, tree, etc. Respect for this earth.

It must be taught. It must be instilled in each of us. It must become mental. Then and only then will Respect become a outward product of who we are. For if we fail to Respect the AT, we disrespect ourselves. Utimately, we won't just have to worry about our journey ending on Katahdin.

Dang....sorry for the rant. On to other threads about what is the best.....

[soilman]

What I find interesting is that the BSP Authority focuses on Gov Baxter intent to keep the park a wilderness but ignores his desire to have the park be a place of recreation "for those who love nature and who are willing to walk and make an effort to get close to nature ... with pleasant foot-trails built and attractive camp-sites laid out in the valleys, by the brooks, and on the shores of the water." The quotes are the actual words or writing of Gov Baxter. http://www.mainememory.net/artifact/9357/

[Colter]

It's easy to look for the bad in any group of people, and define the group by it's worst elements. It's also wrong.

It sure looks like Baxter State Park wants to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Tipi Walter]

What I find interesting is that the BSP Authority focuses on Gov Baxter intent to keep the park a wilderness but ignores his desire to have the park be a place of recreation "for those who love nature and who are willing to walk and make an effort to get close to nature ... with pleasant foot-trails built and attractive camp-sites laid out in the valleys, by the brooks, and on the shores of the water." The quotes are the actual words or writing of Gov Baxter. http://www.mainememory.net/artifact/9357/

Interesting point. Too bad Percival didn't donate the land and have Baxter SP made a designated wilderness area. Just think---No roads, no snowmobiles, no 44 foot RVs, no airplanes, no bicycles---just humans on foot.

[tdoczi]

The 2010 A.T. Guide, which was my sole source of trail information, mentions nothing about size of group or alcohol in Baxter.
I have a picture of the Kiosk at Abol and there is nothing there stating the rules that I can see nor do I recall any such signs posted (although the rules might have been in with the 20 or more pages posted all over the kiosk).
The ranger at check in did not discuss rules, just signed us in and directed us to our campsite.

So yea, I'd say there's room for improvement in getting this information out.

you have a point then, perhaps. i think part of the issue is the rules dont need to be explained to most of the visitors. i mean who besides AT users are going to pop champagne on top of katahdin? it also seems like the idea of illegally camping is all but impossible except if you hike in on the AT. maybe thats why the rules arent explained all that well, it could be done better. i still think it would matter little to thrus. theyre going to do what they have to do, and, as others have stated, some may just accept the consequences. the issue is they may be accepting the consequence of the no more AT in baxter on behalf of all of us.

[WILLIAM HAYES]

I just recently summited Katadhin and stayed in the park. The rangers there were super nice to me. In fact everyone I met on the staff at Baxter was exceptionally professional and friendly. Personally all of the thru hikers I met were well behaved both in the birches and while at the top of Katdhin. I am sure there are a few silly acting thru hikers they have to deal with , It appears to me that it is a problem that coulrld be better handled by increasing the staff at Baxter pehaps funded thru a permitting fee structure, Anyway my two cents

[Don H]

peakbagger: "The rules were posted prominently at the kiosk at the Abol bridge entrance this fall as well as interpretations of the rules for those who are unable to read the full set. Realistically unless there is a full time employee administering written quizzes to hikers entering the park, there is always going to be the hiker that say the rules werent prominent enough."

Again I did not see any rules posted in 2011, I was not there this year and can't address the current situation.
Administering written quizzes is a little extreme, but maybe a friendly reminder from the ranger when you check in would be helpful.

For BSP I don't think the problem is the few rule breakers (consider the lack of citations), BPS's problem is just too many people, specifically the wave of thru-hiker during the 6 week or so season. IMO it seems as though they would rather not deal with them. They're mostly out of staters anyway and we all know BPS was established for the people of Maine.

[misprof]

I am wondering if BSP minds are already made up concerning moving the trail. This meeting then would be just to say they did due diligence to correct the problems they see. I am not sure how their numbers stack up. How can 2000+ long distance hikers have done K last year or are they counting all hikers that hike K on the AT including weekenders?

As to misbehavior fines do work being thrown out of the park works better. Also if they charged AT users the same rate as other campers and their numbers are accurate they would make enough to pay for additional help during high use times.

My only other constructive idea is besides paying entrance fee is to build a culture where every section or thru put in a day of volunteering to help BSP. This would show that we are not a bunch of self-entitled, law-breakers but people who love the wilderness.

[tdoczi]

I just recently summited Katadhin and stayed in the park. The rangers there were super nice to me. In fact everyone I met on the staff at Baxter was exceptionally professional and friendly. Personally all of the thru hikers I met were well behaved both in the birches and while at the top of Katdhin. I am sure there are a few silly acting thru hikers they have to deal with , It appears to me that it is a problem that coulrld be better handled by increasing the staff at Baxter pehaps funded thru a permitting fee structure, Anyway my two cents

so none of them drank alcohol at the summit? really? i'll believe you if you say so, but i'd be shocked.

[WILLIAM HAYES]

so none of them drank alcohol at the summit? really? i'll believe you if you say so, but i'd be shocked.

really-no one that I saw did while I was at the top if they did it was not public or obvious

[tdoczi]

really-no one that I saw did while I was at the top if they did it was not public or obvious

sort of sounds to me like you didnt see it but you know someone or someones was planning on it

[WILLIAM HAYES]

nope but you make a lot of assumptions

[Emerson Bigills]

It seems to me the poster twice stated what he saw. It seems you have your mind made up and want the other post to support your agenda.

[tdoczi]

It seems to me the poster twice stated what he saw. It seems you have your mind made up and want the other post to support your agenda.

no i believe him. just, thought it interesting he inserted like 3 caveats into his answer instead of just saying "no, no one drank any alcohol." his answer was more like a politician in front of congress saying "not to my knowledge." or "not in my recollection."

[egilbe]

Its not a BSP rule about no alcohol. Its a state law prohibiting drinking in public.

[squeezebox]

What I find interesting is that the BSP Authority focuses on Gov Baxter intent to keep the park a wilderness but ignores his desire to have the park be a place of recreation "for those who love nature and who are willing to walk and make an effort to get close to nature ... with pleasant foot-trails built and attractive camp-sites laid out in the valleys, by the brooks, and on the shores of the water." The quotes are the actual words or writing of Gov Baxter. http://www.mainememory.net/artifact/9357/

So where does getting drunk or stoned on top of Katahdin, or illegal camping,or illegal dogs in BSP have to do with an effort to get close to nature?