experience with using down quilt/bag for multiple days in Oct/Nov in GSMNP?

[saltcreektrail]

I love my JRB Hudson River 900 fp (temp rated 25-30F) quilt, but b/c I’m seeing so much caution about moisture accumulation in down over time, I’m wondering about getting a synthetic quilt for this trip.

(I’ve never used down for this long in these conditions, and don't know the Smokies at this time of year. I’m actually doing 3 consecutive 7-night trips in GSMNP in late Oct – mid Nov, with a one-night in-town stay between each 7-night leg, so I’ll be able to dry gear every eighth night). I’ll be all over the park: up high and in the valleys, almost never in shelters.

I use an Oware drawcord bivvy (Quarktex 20 denier top) with a trimmed RidgeRest under a flat A-frame tarp. I layer clothes as needed at night. Full clothes: lightweight wicking + ltwt fleece + Patagonia Nano Air Jacket + Helium II W/B jacket + balaclava.

Would anyone defend the use of a down quilt for this trip?
If you were looking at synthetic quilts for this trip, what would you recommend?

Thanks for any wisdom you can share.

[Slo-go'en]

How breathable is the bivy? If it's not too breathable, that can trap a lot of moisture. The Smokies can be a really damp place too which doesn't help. I've gone through the Smokies on the AT several times in very wet conditions with a down bag and had no trouble, but I was in shelters.

Be sure to stuff your quilt first thing when you get up in the morning to push all the warm, damp air out of it before it has a chance to cool down. Air it out in the sun during lunch breaks when ever possible.

[Venchka]

I would be way more concerned about your gear choices than the question of "down or synthetic". The answer to that question is down. Definitely down. The answer to the question that you didn't ask: More down.
Good luck. I'm looking forward to your trip report.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[garlic08]

In my experience on a few very wet trips in WA state, nearly 100% RH constantly, I needed, or at least really wanted, to add heat every fourth or fifth day to dry out the down (and everything else). I was able to get to a mechanical dryer, but I could have used a large fire if needed. A few minutes of sunshine and wind would help tremendously.

[Dogwood]

I know what you're going through. I debate the same things. I'm an UL quilt highest fp down admirer. I also am a cowboy, bivy, and/or tarp camper. I often open cowboy or open bivy in a WR bivy or shelter under a cat cut or flat tarp sometimes combined with a WR bivy even deep into the fall and occasionally in winter. Now, if I can only find a Primaloft Gold or, better, a Primaloft Gold Blend(70% hydrophobic treated down/30% Primaloft Gold) SUL quilt that opens flat(no sewn footbox)!




First, know your typical weather. http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/weather.htm KNOW it will change the deeper into Oct and into Nov you go as well as you bounce around to different elevations, exposures, and coves. Personally, I would rely on the Clingmans Dome monthly weather averages no matter where you are in GSMNP. Keep abreast of current weather throughout your hike planning accordingly.




Two, gear is only part of the equation. No gear optimally functions without intimate knowledge and adequate skills. Comfort and safety is not entirely about gear alone.




I want to know what Ridge Rest model you have as the R Values range from 2.6 - 3.5. May not sound like much but with freezing conditions at elevation almost for sure all the insulation you have is paramount with your kit and to your comfort. Consider throwing a cheapo SOL Emergency blanket at 2.5 oz about $4 into the mix and a couple of chemical heat packs for hands and feet like Hot Hands or Toastie Toes. Use the SOL blanket over or under or BOTH for added insulation and warmth BUT in doing so PRESERVE YOUR LOFT. Avoid condensation into the quilt down and shell fabric matrix! On clear weather nights your tarp folded under you can add a few degrees of insulation too. Add some gloves or mittens.




I'm wondering IF you should get caught in all day COLD rain, some frozen rain(sleet), and or snow mixed conditions(CERTAINLY POSSIBLE in GSMNP in late Oct going into Nov!) is the OR Helium II layered over the Patagonia Nano Jacket(hood or no hood?) enough WP protection in the cold? Account too under those mixed conditions for hand warmth with the OR Helium II NOT having hand packets.





I don't know about WR Quark Tex fabric used as a top face bivy fabric. However, Dave Olsen at OWare has always been a straight shooter when I inquired about gear or when he made gear for me. He says the Quark Tex has similar specs to Momentum 90 or Intrepid which I am familiar with and I know have very decent Moisture Vapor Transmission Rate(MVTR) (breathability) specs. Obviously, don't breathe into your quilt or bivy or be wet or wear wet clothing, if you can help it, into your quilt and bivy! Don't sit wet, or even sweaty, on your quilt! Don't throw your quilt around where it might pick up moisture or dew, even from plants, when setting up camp!




Air out your quilt on nice sunny days out in the sun. Every eighth day remove the moisture from the JRB 900 fp untreated down quilt by drying in a dryer on low, maybe, med heat. Since Oct is a dry month for GSMNP you should be OK but keep an eye on weather and guard and protect your loft. Consider some hydrophobic down next time. Contact JRB inquiring what they think about adding a light but quality DWR spray such as the Mcnett's Revivex DWRer to the quilt face fabric.

[saltcreektrail]

Thanks everybody. Very helpful info.

The down looks doable, given my layers of synthetic clothes in which--especially combined with slogging to a shelter if things got emergency-bad--I could weather out some pretty low temps and wind. (Forgot to mention that I'm also taking a ltwt Sea-to-Summit Thermolite bag liner = more insulation if needed). Moisture management will be key, including a good dry-out every 7th day in town. A sunny day here and there would be bonus.

A few responses:
+ Hands and head: I've got Zpacks micro-fleece mittens (heavy sleep socks as extra layer if needed) + ltwt wpb overmittens; micro fleece hat + balaclava, no hood on air nano jacket.
+ 2.8 R-value on Ridgerest, and I know how to layer duff if needed to boost R-value
+ Dogwood, thanks for the detailed post and the local insight. I really appreciate it. And the quilt you're looking for sounds perfect for this kind of trip.

Thanks again, y'all.

Trip report sometime in November!

[Just Bill]

As a fellow midwesterner- I'd bump your pad if you can do so... the "duff" trick doesn't work so hot in the smokies. The vegetation and dampness there ain't nothing like here or even New England... and if you do get a dip in temps or some slushy snow you'll have a tough time scraping up much without some serious scrounging.

Otherwise you have my main safety rule covered for this type of trip... if you go down bag, go synthetic puffy (nano-air in this case).

My choice would be a nice synthetic quilt... but you can get by with down if careful as was already well covered.

Dogwood... why you so hung up on that zippered footbox? So you can use it as an UQ in a pinch?
Not that we're talking crazy money or labor... but if we're talking TQ its a feature I never used. So I cut it out not only to shave cost and weight, but for one less thing to break. I also found it easier to slip myself into the quilts when in my bridge hammock or even in a bivy, and just as easy to slip a foot out when I get warm (or I just open the bottom).
Honest question mainly though... we all have different preferences.

[Dogwood]

When you sleep in those clothes especially the OR Helium(w/ hood up)/raingear/balaclava they act to trap body moisture/vapor keeping it closer to your body or in your clothes rather than all of it going into your down quilt/ bag. Same happens if you slip into the liner next and THEN your JRB quilt. All this can help preserve unprotected down loft... WARMTH. I look at this as adding a pseudo VBL(Not a true VBL though) USING WHAT YOU ALREADY ANTICIPATE CARRYING. Ahh, the beauty of gear functioning as triple duty!


And, since you sleeping in a high quality synthetic Patagonia Nano Jacket you shouldn't be unduly affecting it's warmth characteristics compared to say wearing a comparable unprotected/untreated non DWRed face fabric down jacket.

[Dogwood]

"And, since you sleeping in a high quality synthetic Patagonia Nano Jacket you shouldn't be unduly affecting it's warmth characteristics compared to say wearing a comparable unprotected/untreated non DWRed face fabric down jacket."

This is explaining what JB was referring to here: "...my main safety rule covered for this type of trip... if you go down bag, go synthetic puffy (nano-air in this case).



"Dogwood... why you so hung up on that zippered footbox? So you can use it as an UQ in a pinch?"



I want a quilt that can triple function as a UQ, TQ, and open flat like a blanket. Leaning towards a UL drawstring or small snap foot closure. I'm gram weenieing it all.




JB may be the most obnoxious poster here on WB but he be smart.

[Just Bill]

"Dogwood... why you so hung up on that zippered footbox? So you can use it as an UQ in a pinch?"
I want a quilt that can triple function as a UQ, TQ, and open flat like a blanket. Leaning towards a UL drawstring or small snap foot closure. I'm gram weenieing it all.
JB may be the most obnoxious poster here on WB but he be smart.

Yar. Not to argue with you much as my hammocking experience is pretty well a season and mostly bridges...
My take was that trying to rig a TQ as an UQ leaves you with no TQ and a ****ty UQ. But I get it.
Main problem I see... you're missing a the drawcord sleeve on the perimeter to snug up the UQ right. Not finding an easy way to integrate a solution into the quilts I'm making... seemed the zipper was an easy cut.

Although roughly... 3/4 ounce or so and another $20 would add the option to the line when I can afford to have options, lol.

With the exception of the fill... Tim's UQ may fit you best if you can get him to slap a foot box zipper to it. I don't see why the drawcord channel wouldn't pinch closed in TQ mode.

But as I said on the PL fill... For a while (if I ever have product that is) I'll be the only game in town that I know of.

I think we're a season or so from seeing any of the hybrid down... but adding that to somebodies line is as simple as dumping it in if they wanted to in lieu of down. But most of the spanky new PL stuff goes to the big boys in apparel first. So unless TNF or another partner that already makes bags chooses to dump some into a bag... don't hold your moisture laden breath.

And hey... if I get my bridge into production you won't want nothing to do with them big heavy gathered end hammock UQ's anyway.

[Dogwood]

I have a patent pending VERY SUL high tech solution to adapting a TQ that opens flat to an UQ with some added on the fly high tech space age just like NASA employs leading edge components. I've had my R&D team locked away in a Silicon Valley lab feverishly brainstorming for a very long time meticulously developing this revolutionary high tech SUL UQ hanging system. SHHH, don't tell anyone here it is: Micro Soft Grip Binder Clips. SHHH!

[Dogwood]

Thanks for all the input JB. You're a good sport. Helpful, I must say.